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New thread about women in the sport #12510
11/03/02 07:52 AM
11/03/02 07:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 273
Key Largo, FL
MaryAWells Offline OP
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In my earlier post, "Where are the women and crews?" for some reason the text box was going way off screen right, and I keep having to scroll back and forth to read it -- very annoying. So I decided to start a new one, because I needed to clarify something anyway.

In my former post, maybe I should have said "women sailors" or "women racers" or something. It is nice that a lot of you have wives and girlfriends (and dogs) who enjoy going out for a sail once in a while or racing at a low stress level, but I was thinking more in terms of women who are seriously involved and committed to sailing and racing, whether as skipper or as crew. I know there are at least a thousand of them who have been committed enough to the sport to go through grueling seminars and read textbooks on the subject.

And there are at least 50 expert women catamaran skippers and crews in North America who are extremely knowledgeable and would be able to give valuable input on a forum like this -- input to the men as well as to other women.

Unfortunately, the sport is needing women less and less as boats become more powerful and as spinnakers become the norm. In the old days when light weight was a crucial factor, men worked hard at finding and training female crews, motivating their wife or girlfriend, etc. And the women WERE motivated, because they sure didn't want their husband or boyfriend out there sailing with some other woman.

But now you see a predominance of all-male teams or else single-handers. The original Hobie 16 concept of a "couples" boat has almost disappeared except for the Hobie 16's, and maybe one of the reasons that class has remained strong is BECAUSE it is a couples boat.

Women have left sailing because of children, advancing age, the advent of the more powerful boats, the introduction of spinnakers, spousal abuse on the boat, etc. And we don't see new women coming into the sport because of basically the same reasons.

So for couples who are new to the sport and want to get into sailboat racing as a team and want to race one-design, what is available to them except the Hobie 16?

Which has come first here? Have women dropped out because the men keep moving up to bigger, faster, more powerful? Or did the men move up to bigger, faster, more powerful because they did not have a woman who would sail with them?

Is racing with spouse or other family members a priority for men? Or do you guys kind of prefer this "men-only" sport that it is becoming?



Mary A. Wells
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re women in the sport: [Re: MaryAWells] #12511
11/03/02 08:28 AM
11/03/02 08:28 AM
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Posts: 105
M
michael C Offline
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Mary,
I'm afraid that a lot of it has to do with the move to bigger, more powerful boats. Body size is a genuine limiting factor. For the last few years, the ONLY boats with boards and big classes have been in the 19-20 ft range. As a 140lb guy, I have a great deal of sympathy for these women. The sheet loads are immense, and the "average" female crew/skipper combo on I20's, P19's, N6.0's, and Tigers would carry 30-60 lbs of correctors AND be unable to right the boat.
We have one of those rare commodities (female owner/skipper) in our Taipan fleet, and I think more will join. It's simple: you need a boat with light sheet loads, a small spinaker (if any), and one that is light enough to move around/right. I believe that the Stealth was also designed with this in mind.
If you think there aren't women interested in the sport, you need only to look at college racing - TONS of women compared to cats. You just need boats that are technical, or strategic, rather than being about pure muscle.
Just my opinion
Michael Coffman
T4.9#32

Re: Re women in the sport: [Re: michael C] #12512
11/03/02 09:01 AM
11/03/02 09:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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Dlennard  Offline
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Wilmington,NC
[color:"blue"] [/color] Mary

There are a lot of women sailing on Tigers,my wife and I, Dennis & Tracie, Alex & Patsy, Jack & Becky, Nigel & Tammy, Fritz &Heidi, and several from the new york area. Most of the Tiger sailors in division 9 are husband wife teams. We moved up from the Hobie 18 to the Tiger and we are putting 18 lbs of weight on the boat and have not had any problems righting it.
My wife reads some of the comments on the form but she never has posted on it and really does not care about the teck. questions.


Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: MaryAWells] #12513
11/03/02 09:16 AM
11/03/02 09:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 215
Durham, North Carolina
jwrobie Offline
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Mary asked:

> Is racing with spouse or other family members a priority
> for men? Or do you guys kind of prefer this "men-only"
> sport that it is becoming?

The whole reason I got involved was to spend fun time with my wife. But in the earlier part of your mail you make it plain that you are interested in serious sailors, and both my wife and I are beginning recreational sailors.

Jonathan


Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: MaryAWells] #12514
11/03/02 09:58 AM
11/03/02 09:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 123
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Greg Offline
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Santa Fe, New Mexico
Mary,
I've got to chime in with JWROBIE. When I decided to buy a sailboat I was pleasantly surprised that I had a new hobby (Hobie) that my wife would participate in. Even though she doesn't like heavy wind, she enjoys the relaxation and quietness of sailing. In the light winds I enjoy maximizing my efficiency. I think this forum is not just about racing. I enjoy racing, cruising and fun sailing. I think that is what this forum is about.
Greg
H14,H16

Re: women in the sport [Re: MaryAWells] #12515
11/03/02 10:24 AM
11/03/02 10:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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MI

Hi Mary -
Good post ,-it is nice to see you so active on the Forums -

Hi Micheal ,-and David ,good posts on the subject also .
Agree with Micheal on the collegiate sailing ,-live near the
Universityof Mich . sailing club on Base Line Lk ,-, very good female partisipation on the 505 dingies mainly sailed ,-one good thing they do is offer extensive classes through the year on sailing for beginners and instructor certification ,-I may go this year .
As David and Micheal mention many F-18s and F-16 with spin are attracting both genders to race again . The spin loads really are not that bad on these boats though it does take a reasonable amount of arm strength but more in the setting and dousing of the chute ,-it is some work in buoys racing .One option is to sometimes switch crew spots .
I often do this with new crew or when sailing with kids ,-I just let them steer around A and C marks .
Someone really needs to add a winch type devise along with the snuffer for added ease , --think this was partially attempted on a turtle type snuffer which rolled the chute up .
Furling then snuffing directly into a larger diamiter spin pole may be another possible system , like the hooters use but a snuffer feature added . -
I,m sure we will see more and better systems developed for the chute ,
Even the 20s with 270 sq ft chutes are not overwhelming ,-
The only cat I,ve sailed that ever was too much was the
N-6/0 WITH LARGE WORRELL CHUTE -approx 450 sq ft ,-no snuffer -bag launched ,-that was a monster at times . That and the earlier H-21s in the late 80s we raced .
Newer smaller versions at 270 with great snuffer systems are very easy in all but really higher wind strengths , then it is more technique than strength.
David mentioned the number of -F-18 Tiger husband -wife teams , it is great for the sport , David and I sailed the last 2 Worrell 1000 s together but the year earlier I sailed the Worrell with Sandra , who is signed up to race the Worrell again with Rod from Austrailia.
Here is a good pic of Trish ,Sandra me and David from the Worrell that year ,-{ older team web site }
http://www.worrell1000challenge.com/
The Worrell being the most grueling beach cat race has had a number of female partisipants over the years , as Mary mentioned there are numerous female skippers and crew very capable ,--one interesting one with a great amount of ocean racing experience is Gale B , just looking into potentially copeting in the race in 03.
here is her web site -http://www.2001minitransat.com/

The success of Ellen Macarther in ocean racing and the media has set the course for a number of female racing skippers in numerous events and classes .
The W-1000 currently has 35 teams entered , I see two female partisipants so far with an Amanda C entered and think we will see more with a number of team spots still not filled .
--I,m signed up again for the race and currently looking for a good capable lightweight crew with ocean racing experience,---so if your ready for 03 Mary ,----
just joking again , often when I jokingly ask catsailors to do the race I typically get the -ARE YOU NUTS - look or no responce ,---rightly so , it is a very grueling race at times.

Think we will continue to see more of this type of racing ,-the Tybee race is a good indication of this , along with more female partisipants involved in it .

Sail safe
have fun
Carl Roberts

-added forum question
need to change my sign in name ,--how do we do that ?
thanks


David - about the Tigers [Re: Dlennard] #12516
11/03/02 10:38 AM
11/03/02 10:38 AM
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michael C Offline
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Sorry, I probably wasn't clear - I was just talking about female skipper AND crew when I mentioned the corrector weight/righting prob's. You're right, the Tiger is a great mixed boat!
Thanks,
Michael
T4.9#32

Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: MaryAWells] #12517
11/03/02 06:13 PM
11/03/02 06:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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Hello Mary-

Its been my experience that the quickest way to loose a woman crew is to race with her. Some like the intensity and some do not...

When the Pro 22 talk was going on; I put an add for one or two crew [women or smaller men] for this pro-circuit. Not one woman answered. Actually I wanted to try two women on heavier air days because with the combined weight of 260lbs [crew weight] and my 190lbs [450lbs total] the ability to place weight of three people anywhere on the boat would be an advantage... Also I felt two women or one woman and one man could handle sail changes, trimming, etc better than one larger man [200lbs]... That includes the trap work as well.

Also I find it interesting that its all men answering your post on this subject so far with the exception of one person??? Why is that???

fair winds,

thommerrill
F25c 009 Charisma
ARC22 2234 Widowmaker
FMS SC20 57

Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: MaryAWells] #12518
11/04/02 07:27 AM
11/04/02 07:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 285
Hampton, Virginia
Tracie Offline
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<<< Women have left sailing because of children, advancing age, the advent of the more powerful boats, the introduction of spinnakers, spousal abuse on the boat, etc. And we don't see new women coming into the sport because of basically the same reasons.>>>>

Another reason we don’t see many new women or, don’t see them again, is because racing and pleasure sailing are two completely different activities.
I have seen new woman sailing with their male skippers for a weekend race, only to run into the skipper a few weeks down the road, minus the girl…

Think about your first race. Mine was at Spring Fever 2000; when there was wind – and too much of it.
Let me back up a bit. Before Spring Fever, I had pleasured sailed with Dennis a number of times out on the Chesapeake bay. The only sail boat I had ever been on was his Hobie 20. Dennis was very careful about the conditions he took me out in. He was always saying to me that “If you throw your new crew out in conditions they are not ready for, you’ll lose them”. And this is very true.

So originally, when we went to Spring Fever, I was not supposed to crew because Dennis had told me that it was usually snorting down there. But, his regular crew was unable to make it, so it was my turn to step up to the plate.

We suited up on Friday. It was honking. Dennis told me we didn’t have to go out there. But I said I had experience it sometime so why not now? To make a short story even shorter, we flipped and turtled within 15 minutes. Two good things came of this. I got over my fear of flipping and turtling, and, it was my choice to go out there in the first place so I held no resentment towards my skipper.

Next day, not as windy and gusty, but still cranking. This time we actually raced. If you could call it that. I had not idea what I was doing. I was sliding all over the place. I was a disaster. Dennis was now yelling at me; Get that line, get over here, what are you doing now? That sorta thing.

I remember one race where the wind had shifted and it was now a reach reach between marks. I had never been on this fast of a reach with about 10 other Hobie 20’s all screaming into the A mark at the same time. And we were on port!
Finally I turned to him and said, ‘you never told me it was going to be like THIS!’

That is the key here, I had no idea what was really involved with racing. Simply said, I was in over my head. A day of racing in hectic conditions can easily turn anyone off to racing again. Too many crews get thrown into this scenario only to never return again.

I got back on the boat because I happen to be a very determined person with a competitive side. Now I crave hectic conditions. I like it when everything is happening all at once, but I grew into that. It just didn’t happen overnight.

You have some skippers who have been sailing practically all their life who have forgotten what it was like to be new to the sport.

Pictures of us going into A Mark at Spring Fever

Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: Tracie] #12519
11/04/02 08:47 AM
11/04/02 08:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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I agree with Tracie that the best way to develop a crew is very slowly. The problem is that in some areas the weather changes in minutes not hours. I took a woman out one Sunday with the winds blowing about 5mph. Of course within an hour it was 10-20mph... She acted as if I could just roll up the windows and drive back to the beach. When I explained we would have to tack back she was furious... imagine getting wet on a cat... I gave a couple of books/mags to browse through but she didn't have time. No capsizes or pitchpoles either. The learning process is unpredictable at best and finding someone that won't panic is even more so.

As far as crowds at a mark you should try the Fboat nationals. I recall sending a couple of pics to Mary that were published in the magazine. Imagine about 20-30 F31s going to a mark within a few minutes and huge spins popping up everywhere.

You either like it or you don't...

thom

Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: Tracie] #12520
11/04/02 09:00 AM
11/04/02 09:00 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 77
reidqa Offline
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Tracie,

You are on the mark with your post.

I have been conversing with older surfers out in California and here in Surf City N.J.

The Hobie was a social craft in it's heyday, many peiople would hang out on the beach all weekend sail, party, barbecue and socialize.

There were minimual competitions other than locally.

I pose the question, how many people bar hop with their hobie. I mean land on a beach where club is at our slowly cruise down a river and stop a local watering hole for burger and iced cold one.

I just think, the competition thing is an overbearing segment, the orginial intent has been lost.

Mike

Better yet park on the beach overnight and enjoy a motel.

The outline above would be better with loved one rather than single handed.

Please see my attachement from 1973, it simply doesn't apply anymore.

PS: As a side note only new craft is honored what happened to older Hobies, another example of todays marketplace.

Mike

Attached Files
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Last edited by reidqa; 11/04/02 09:02 AM.
Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: reidqa] #12521
11/04/02 09:19 AM
11/04/02 09:19 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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This coming summer, I'm going to try and sail from Ocean City NJ to Atlantic City and back. I really DON'T want to become my own island in that case

Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: reidqa] #12522
11/04/02 10:43 AM
11/04/02 10:43 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 8
Key Largo
SeaWolf Offline
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In Key Largo, on the bayside, we have ample opportunity to race and/or cruise. Thus far formal race crew has been limited to the 12 year old (Sam), and weather allows for such diversity of wind that many 'cruising' days actually become informal races against other cats frequently seen on the bay waters. My significant other, GA, loves sailing (owns a 26' Pearson sloop), and thoroughly enjoys the water. I have found many times when she is thrilled with extreme wind and strenous multi-tasking, and as many other times when she prefers, as she puts it, to be just "taken for a sail".
From a personal point of view... when sailing any vessel, whether it be a 110' Schooner in the South Pacific, or a little Hobie 16 here in the Bay, I find myself intense to an extreme, highly competitive, and unwilling to allow any errors in tactics or appearance. This is a personal approach of mine to all sports. As a retired US Freestyle Coach, Slalom/Downhill Racer & Extreme Ski competitor, and one who has sailed the seas as skipper of vessels of various size and description for over 50 years, this is just my way.
Indeed this is not the way of many, and certainly not the way of many women involved in sailing.
So..... as many times as I spend bellowing commands from the helm, and being an overbearing skipper (bordering on being guilty of "spousal abuse"), I spend equally as many sailing days barhopping, lunchbreaking at the various resort beaches, cruising to a deserted bay island for an afternoon swim, encouraging my crew to ride the hulls and hang from the dolphin striker, and so forth.
Bottom line?..... Women as Cat Sailors and Racers are no different from women in any other physical endeavor:
Ask nicely, agree to the response fully and unconditionally, demand nothing, criticize never, compliment often...... and certainly never yell!
These simple guidelines should assure that not only will the fairer sex be found in abundance on your crew lists, but they will find themselves as skippers quite often.
After all is said & done: No man really wants to be an "Island"!

SeaWolf
~~~~~~~

Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: reidqa] #12523
11/04/02 12:43 PM
11/04/02 12:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 171
Tampa, FL
dave taylor Offline
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Tampa, FL
i was told by my friend's wife (who used to own a hobie 16 before graduating to a monohull) about a race that used to be held in jacksonville where the boat would round a mark and sail to shore and drink a beer at a predetermined bar and repeat the process about 5 times before the finish. how is that for a social race. she said it was a great time. those types of races are long gone for obvious reasons.

Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: MaryAWells] #12524
11/12/02 02:59 AM
11/12/02 02:59 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 273
Key Largo, FL
MaryAWells Offline OP
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I copied the following post from my original thread, "On this forum where are the women and crews?" over to this thread because of the problem with the screen view on the other thread. And I copied it here because I really need to answer it.

Okay, this is what was posted by HeadItUp, a stranger:
"I read this forum all the time. I perfer to be known as just a sailor, not singled out as a woman sailor (I skipper and crew). I do tend to read the old forum more often, and regularly get disgusted with how childish some of the postings are. Occasionaly I find a great link, or really interesting information. It's kind of like a treasure hunt. I am very much into all the technical developments, and tunning techniques, but there seems to be more than enough reponse to those postings. Many of the postings about women end up in the gutter, so I don't bother responding. Maybe other women feel the same."

AND HERE IS MY RESPONSE:
I know exactly what you are talking about as far as wanting to be recognized as a sailor and not singled out as being a woman sailor. It is the reason we do not have a forum specifically for women. It is the reason I do not have a women's column in my magazine. I am not able to think of any sailing issues that affect only women, whether as skippers or crews. My sister and I have both been racing sailboats all our lives -- I mostly crew and she always skippers. She is opposed to women-only sailing events because she has always raced against men. She considers the women's events to be discriminatory against men. We raced as a team in two Women's Hobie 18 World Championships, but I had to beg her to go, because she really does not believe in the concept. We won the last one, but that has not changed her opinion.

I am able to see the value in women's events because most women are not as aggressive as men (less testosterone) and are kind of intimidated about skippering against men sailors. Also, there are very few full-time women skippers, and several of the women who participate in women's events are women who normally crew. The women's events give them a chance to be on the helm in a lower-stress, higher-fun, mutually-supportive atmosphere.

So now you know where I stand on those issues. HOWEVER, I totally disagree with your decision to not use a name that identifies you as a woman when posting on this forum. (I can understand it on the Old Forum.) Now I am wondering if there are other women on this forum using anonymous unisex names.

I think it is extremely important for women to use their own names so that women will know that other women are involved in the sport and so that they will be encouraged to give their viewpoints and opinions on things, as well.

It is important not only for the other adult women in our sailing society but also for our female children to have role models. Do we want them to think this is a man-only sport?

And it is also important for men to know that there are women who are involved and who care. If we do not make ourselves visible and vocal, they will start thinking of this as a private men's club.

Women are treated as fellow sailors on this forum, and I haven't seen a "gutter" yet. However, nobody can argue the fact that there are differences between the sexes, and those differences can result in different perspectives on different issues. I think it is extremely important that when we hear input, we also know the perspective from which it is coming -- age and sex are probably the two most important factors that affect perspective.

A perfect example is another thread on this forum that has two postings by Mindy, a 10-year-old female sailor. This kind of input to the sport is absolutely invaluable. It would have had no value if we did not know she was a 10-year-old child. And it is also helpful to know that she is a girl, because girls who love sailing at an early age are more likely to stick with it through those critical teen years when the boys are all getting lured away to football and baseball and a myriad of other sports.

As I said, we need women role models, so we need women posting on the forums AS women.

P.S. I just realized this can be difficult if you have a name that people could interpret as being either male or female. I suppose this could be solved by using a handle like "Powderpuff." Yuck! Or putting your picture with your posting name.


Mary A. Wells
Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: MaryAWells] #12525
11/12/02 09:00 AM
11/12/02 09:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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Mary-

If you can keep the trash mouth talk off this forum; my goddaughter [8] would be posting here all day [not necessarily a good thing]. She made the mistake of quoting some of the posts to her mother who promptly dropped me into the grease and fried me for letting her be exposed. She is still furious with me. I know they here alot at school but when she quotes something off my computer...well your site if off limits for her. She actually would read every post on every topic but she never made a post [that I know of]...

As far a anon postings I wondered if "equal opportunity" etc were female or not...there's got to be a reason for not telling people who you are...

I'm afraid that the ole "you know" sendrome is present today with female crews... One day you're flying the hull and having a good time and the next day its you're trying to kill me... guys really don't know how you feel unless you tell us!!!

As far as all female races discrimating against males.. well don't sweat the small stuff. If you're really a sailor you want everyone to have as much fun as you do no matter whose sailing the boat. Karen-Ann has a standing offer to sail whatever boat I'm sailing on because she loves sailing. As a matter of fact the Shegatta [couple of years back] had problems with access to the lake because it was 22' down. I tried to get 2 inflatables from a friend so that they would have a RC boat. Couldn't get them because they were in Mexico but drove up to see what was happening and ended up having to drive back to Dallas to solve a problem. Never answer your cell if you want to have Saturday off. Didn't get out of the car. Didn't get to meet Sheila either. Now the races that used to be open are closed events so probably won't be attending those...

why have portsmouth ratings if all you want to do is race class only???

fair winds,
thom

Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: thom] #12526
11/12/02 12:21 PM
11/12/02 12:21 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 273
Key Largo, FL
MaryAWells Offline OP
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Thom,
You don't have to tell people specifically WHO you are, but it would be nice to have a clue as to whether male or female.

As far as children, we just today started a forum for junior and youth sailors to use. This was suggested by Mindy, a 10-year-old who loves sailing Hobie 14's and 16's, and she wants other kids to talk to. So we'll give it a try and see what happens and how many kids are interested. It is with the rest of the specialized forums in the Main Index. I hope your goddaughter will be able to participate in it.

As far as our New Open Forum, I have never yet seen anything on there that would not be appropriate for children. Have you? In fact, the Old Forum has been pretty civilized lately, too.


Mary A. Wells
Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: MaryAWells] #12527
11/12/02 01:02 PM
11/12/02 01:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 273
Key Largo, FL
MaryAWells Offline OP
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On the other women's thread, Hobiegary posted a response regarding HeadItUp's post, and I am going to answer him here. (Still can't get the right margin to come in on the other thread. We thought it was Thom Merrill's dog picture, but we took that out, and the thread still goes way off the page.)

Gary said: "I think 'HeadItUp' says it best in her post. Here is what I believe: The internet is predominntly male. Catsailors who want to talk about cat sailing on a forum are mostly male. Women are less assertive when using the internet, for very good reasons; they usually get harrased in some form eventually. GARY"

So here is my response to Gary:
I think you are absolutely wrong. This is not the Old Forum. Nobody gets harassed on this New Forum. If anybody dared to harass a woman here, there would be a cavalry of knights in shining armor coming to her defense. Many of the topics on this forum would be of interest to women sailors and could also benefit from a female point of view. Let's be more positive and encourage women to get involved. If some of the guys prefer a private men's club, they can use the Old Forum.


Mary A. Wells
Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: MaryAWells] #12528
11/12/02 01:20 PM
11/12/02 01:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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Dallas, Texas
Hello Mary-

The last time she was on this forum there was a post from someone with a four letter vocabulary. This was the last time she was allowed in my house! I have been on this site much lately. If you want I can send you the post directly???

thom

Re: New thread about women in the sport [Re: thom] #12529
11/12/02 01:24 PM
11/12/02 01:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 273
Key Largo, FL
MaryAWells Offline OP
enthusiast
MaryAWells  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 273
Key Largo, FL
Yes, please. But I think I know the one you are talking about.


Mary A. Wells
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