OK, I know the F-27 was the first to come out, and it originally had a symetrical spin, ala mono hull. I also know most of them have been modified for the asymetical spinn that is now in vougue and much easier to handle. I have been thinking about getting an F-27 but I forgot if the mast rotates or not? I was under the impression it does not, since it was designed for the sym. spinn.

1. Has the mast step been modified or do none of them rotate?

2. Can you put a carbon F28 stick on a F27 if you swap out the step and the shrouds?

Has anyone ever done this? I plan on using the boat as a family cruiser but I like to go as fast as possible, as often as possible, so I would want all the go-fast goodies, square top main, mylar sails, screacher, etc.

I would of course prefer a newer F28R but the used F27's are half the price, and money is the biggest obsticle.

The F-27 has a fixed mast. The "formula" designation you might see includes a fat head main, bigger jib, asym spin and screacher.

You can modify the F-27 to add a rotating rig (the 28 rig should work) - but, Farrier's take on it is that the rear beams on the 27 are not engineered as strong as those on the 28, and that the rotating rig puts more strain on the back beams. But then he goes on to say that there's a large margin designed in, so you're most likely ok, but those with rotating rig mods should watch the rear beams for problems.

That having been said, I've not read on any of the forums of anybody ever having problems with the rear beams. But I also get the feeling that not too many people have done this mod anyway (you out there Tami?).

The mod done to the rig more often is adding another set of spreaders up higher to better control the mast, and add a little pre-bend. This also allows the elimination of the baby stay. Add some decent rags and you may end up not missing the rotating rig that much.

I kind of had the same thoughts about the fixed mast, but I have to say it doesn't bother me anymore. The mast raising and lowering couldn't be any simpler with the stock rig, and in the end you may find the performance of the boat is just about right for what you're doing with it. I also realize with mine that there are so many other factors that would negate the rotating mast - my experience sailing the boat being at the top of the list...

But after having sailed the boat - I think the biggest reason I'd have now for doing a rotating rig is that it would eliminate the lower shrouds and would make moving about the deck easier as a result.

I'd say - get the cleanest example of the boat you can find for your dime, learn to enjoy it, then see if you still want to go for the rotating mod. If you do, then go for it. I wouldn't make it a deal-breaker going into it.

Thanks for the input Keith. Are you happy with yours? Do you leave it on a mooring or trailer it to sail it? How long does ir REALY take to step the mast, alone? I've seen the video, but they were factory guys. I've even been to the factory in San Diego (or just outside there). I've always wanted one and I'm not getting any younger.

At first, all I wanted to do was get a full out racing boat and just go fast, but now that I've been racing a cat for awhile, I'm ready to slow down and smell the Margaritas. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I'm happy with the F-27. Like you, I couldn't unfold my wallet enough to get an F-28r (although I've seen some that have come close). I did come close to an F-25c, but got scared off due to it being full of water and hearing of potential issues with the balsa core as a result.

My wife couldn't stand the keelboat - too much heeling, not enough speed, not comfortable. We took a test sail on a F-28r, and she liked it alot - except for the price.

The 28 felt a little livelier, but I believe that the 27 has a better interior layout for cruising/overnighting. The aft cabin is surprisingly useful, and my hope is that will be the playhouse for the kids. The aft cabin makes the **** a little cramped, but depending on your preference and philosophy, that's good or bad. I like that the head is separated from the main cabin forward in the vee-berth area. Mine even has a little vanity up there, which I thought was useless until I actually sat there and realized it could be useful for the fairer side of the family.

But the 27 is no slouch. I've not rigged my bowsprit yet, so I have yet to fly the spin or screacher. But I've seen 17 knots, and easily see over 10 routinely. Not N-20 speeds, but given that I've done no tuning and my sails are rags I'm pretty happy with that. I can see more of the Bay on a day sail than I ever could with the mono, and I can pull this right up to the beach. Downwind in lighter stuff is a little painful without the headsails - easily remedied.

Rigging is easy. It's easier than any of the beach cats I've had. The mast rests on a removable stand with a roller on top at the stern, and is captive on the pullpit at the bow. The lower stays stay attached, and act as stabilizers as the mast is raised. Lift the mast off the pullpit, roll it back until the mast base lines up with the step, put the pins in. At that point the mast balances almost perfectly on the stern stand. There's a bar that rests on top of the ends of the front beams - take the trailer winch and attach it the end of the jib halyard, and crank the mast up. Attach the baby stay and forestay, and you're essentially done.

The only real wrestling is with the main/boom. The main by itself isn't heavy, the boom by itself isn't heavy, but the two together is heavy. Some people store it on deck, I store it in the cabin. I find that if you leave the topping lift attached, you can handle the other end and guide it down below, opposite for getting it out.

So, basically, with a little practice and organization, you can rig the boat in half an hour, maybe a little less with two practiced individuals.

One thing on the 27 is that the outboard is in a well, where on others it is stern mounted. You can't steer with the outboard much (if at all) as there's not much room to turn the motor in the well. This affects low speed maneuverability, as you must have the boat moving before the rudder takes affect. With a stern mount you can steer the motor and be very nimble. But, with practice, you figure out what you need to do, and once it's moving it's very maneuverable. The other downside to the well is that with the new motors being 4-stroke and a bit larger, it's a little difficult to find one that fits. The most common outboard that seems to have found its way onto these boats is the Nissan 8hp - which is surprisingly adequate. The upside to the well is a reduced tendency to cavitate the motor in waves, and there's no ugly motor hanging off the back.

I initially kept mine rigged on the trailer at a marina, but recently I've kept it folded in a slip. The trailer option is a great way to go. Keeping it folded in the water presents an issue with keeping growth off the sides of the floats - a battle I have yet to win, and it's a hassle. Ideal would be on a mooring or slip where I could keep it folded out (working on that). Keeping it folded in the water means you either scrape and scrub often, paint anti-fouling up the sides of the floats, invest in a lift of some sort, or use an in-water surround that you pour anti-fouling chemicals into the water. I have bought an airdock lift, but I haven't had the time to set it up. This means I get to scrub and scrape, and it sucks.

If you want all-out speed at a better price, find a F-25c. But there's not as many out there, and you're dealing with more of a custom boat. I found my 27 for $36k, but like I said, it's a work in progress. Expect normally to spend low 40s to mid 50s on a decent F-27. I've seen F-28r's for as little as mid-60s. They only go up from there! F-24 mkII's seem to go for around the same prices as the 27, and F-24 mkI can be as low as the mid-high 20's. Something for everyone, depending on what you want.

If you're looking more for fast daysailing/racing, check out the new 750 - it's a F-24 with a taller rig, different foils, without the cabin and with a more open ****. Still not cheap, but new it's cheaper than a used 28r, and will be more lively than the stock 24 and 27.

Anyway, sorry for the long post - let me know if you have any other questions!

Keith

You can't beat a link between tiller and outboard, but keeping the daggerboard down a bit will help steerage a little. Always remember that you will turn better one way than the other with the offset engine!

Paul

For sure - without the board down she just skates around and doesn't track, and if there's any cross breeze it gets real fun - at least someboard is a must. Linking the outboard to the tiller - again, the problem with the F-27 is that the well leaves little room for turning the outboard at all, and if you replace it with a modern four-stroke it's even tighter.

The offset engine does indeed mean you turn better to one side than the other - also, if the boat is moving you can cut the throttle and turn on almost on a dime.

I have found that for real low speed maneuverability, if I raise the rudder up some it has more authority over the boat. Once moving it needs to go back fully down, but for backing out of the slip at low speed 3/4 down gives the best steerage.

Thanks for all the details, great stuff. Let me know when you get that spinnaker rigged up, and what is a "cap shroud"? Is that a type of stay to support the mast at the spinnaker halyard attach point?

The cap shrouds attach to the mast about where the forestay attaches, and go to the floats. There is a tensioning adjustment rig that allows you to tune the rig as conditions change. The F-27, with its fixed rig, has a set of lower shrouds, and a baby stay in the front. The following is a link to the sail plan, and you can see the various bits of the standing rigging.

F-27 Formula Sail Plan

There is a modification that adds another set of cap shrouds (called upper cap shrouds) for the 27, that adds more stability to the mast up high. This seems to be a fairly common mod, although the double-spreader mod ultimately does the job better, and eliminates the front baby stay as well.

Here's a page from Farrier's site that you might be interested in:

Farrier Owner's Page

Lots of good helpful hints, mods, things to look for, etc...

Keith, thanks for the info.