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#127620 - 01/03/08 11:26 AM Class Strength ??  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Annapolis, MD
A comment was made in another thread about the relative class strenghts of the catamarans.

As we move forward in 2008 with issues for US Sailing and ISAF about the Olympics, and with our local clubs and Regional Sailing Authorities on Racing Events and Junior programs ... we should keep in mind that we really are a VERY small portion of the competivie sailing world in the USA.

RogerJolly's Annual one design survey is now out.

One Design Class Survey

Bottom Line only the Hobie 16 Class makes it into the top 25 with a running three year average above 40 boats.
Quote
Welcome once again to the annual One Design Survey Corrections post.
The Flying Scott, Albacore and Interlake classes need correction.

I neglected to combine the Championship and Challenger fleet in the Flying Scott. The two fleets combined come to 101 boats. I made a simmilar mistake with he Interlake class.

I missed the Albacore US Nationals and used the Canadians. The US Nationals had 50 boats. This was a bit more than the Canadians this year because the US Nationals was just before the class International Championship. Some UK boats were in the mix.

The new corrected list with three year averages is as follows.

1) MC Scow-82.33
2) Thistle-81.33
3) Radial-81.00
4) Laser-80.67
5) Lightning-72.33
6) Sunfish-66.67
7) Flying Scott-65.33
8) E Scow-63.33
9) J/22-61.00
10) Snipe-59.67
11) Hobie 16-58.00
12) 29er-56.67
13) Star-56.33
14) C Scow-53.67
15) J/2451.67
16) Interlake-49.00
17) Albacore-47.33
18) Lido 14-46.33
19) Melges 24-45.67
20) J/105-45.00
21) Etchells-43.00
21) Butterfly-43.00
21) Vanguard 15-43.00
24) Inter Club-40.33
25) Y Flyer-40.00

For rules on scoring check the link.
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2007/...OD%20survey.htm

Send more corrections if you have them.


Seems to me... that our classes need to do a better job of organizing our efforts and commiting to supporting our classes if we want to grow our portion of the sport.

Hell... the 29ner class is less then 10 years old and they have as many committed sailors as the Hobie 16 class which is going on 40!

But here we go again... Bim is annoucing another F16 like boat...BUT it doesn't conform to the F16 class rule... OR to the Level rated class of Nacra 17/ Hobie FX1 extreme's either...

Mark

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 01/03/08 11:50 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
#127621 - 01/03/08 11:52 AM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Mark Schneider]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,879
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,879
Detroit, MI
That "survey" doesn't tell the whole story and RogerJolly admits it's weakness.

It's succeptible to overstating the position of very strong, regionalized classes, like the MC Scow, Y-Flyer and Butterfly.

It's also a very subjective, one-dimensional measure of a class' strength - how many boats attended the NA's/Nationals in the past three years.

However, it is disappointing to see only one cat class on the list. No classes other than Hobie 16's regularly draw 40+ boats to their NA events.

#127622 - 01/03/08 02:16 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: mbounds]  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 331
mmadge Offline
enthusiast
mmadge  Offline
enthusiast

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Posts: 331
Thunder Bay ON CAN
Interesting to see that the 29'er is the only really new class in the top 15.

#127623 - 01/03/08 05:07 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: mmadge]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
BLR_0719 Offline
enthusiast
BLR_0719  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
It takes a certain types of people (specifically the most fun kind) to race catamarans. Quality not quantity = first and foremost.



#127624 - 01/03/08 05:28 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Mark Schneider]  

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Quote
A comment was made in another thread about the relative class strenghts of the catamarans.

As we move forward in 2008 with issues for US Sailing and ISAF about the Olympics, and with our local clubs and Regional Sailing Authorities on Racing Events and Junior programs ... we should keep in mind that we really are a VERY small portion of the competivie sailing world in the USA.

RogerJolly's Annual one design survey is now out.

One Design Class Survey

Bottom Line only the Hobie 16 Class makes it into the top 25 with a running three year average above 40 boats.
Quote
Welcome once again to the annual One Design Survey Corrections post.
The Flying Scott, Albacore and Interlake classes need correction.

I neglected to combine the Championship and Challenger fleet in the Flying Scott. The two fleets combined come to 101 boats. I made a simmilar mistake with he Interlake class.

I missed the Albacore US Nationals and used the Canadians. The US Nationals had 50 boats. This was a bit more than the Canadians this year because the US Nationals was just before the class International Championship. Some UK boats were in the mix.

The new corrected list with three year averages is as follows.

1) MC Scow-82.33
2) Thistle-81.33
3) Radial-81.00
4) Laser-80.67
5) Lightning-72.33
6) Sunfish-66.67
7) Flying Scott-65.33
8) E Scow-63.33
9) J/22-61.00
10) Snipe-59.67
11) Hobie 16-58.00
12) 29er-56.67
13) Star-56.33
14) C Scow-53.67
15) J/2451.67
16) Interlake-49.00
17) Albacore-47.33
18) Lido 14-46.33
19) Melges 24-45.67
20) J/105-45.00
21) Etchells-43.00
21) Butterfly-43.00
21) Vanguard 15-43.00
24) Inter Club-40.33
25) Y Flyer-40.00

For rules on scoring check the link.
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2007/...OD%20survey.htm

Send more corrections if you have them.


Seems to me... that our classes need to do a better job of organizing our efforts and commiting to supporting our classes if we want to grow our portion of the sport.

Hell... the 29ner class is less then 10 years old and they have as many committed sailors as the Hobie 16 class which is going on 40!

But here we go again... Bim is annoucing another F16 like boat...BUT it doesn't conform to the F16 class rule... OR to the Level rated class of Nacra 17/ Hobie FX1 extreme's either...

Mark


Yeah, and negativity has nothing to do with class strenth. Your attitude is all wrong. How about rejoycing in the fact that the H16 came in at #11. It is the stepping stone for other cats.

#127625 - 01/03/08 06:56 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: ]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,279
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,279
South Carolina
Quote
Quote
A comment was made in another thread about the relative class strenghts of the catamarans.

As we move forward in 2008 with issues for US Sailing and ISAF about the Olympics, and with our local clubs and Regional Sailing Authorities on Racing Events and Junior programs ... we should keep in mind that we really are a VERY small portion of the competivie sailing world in the USA.

RogerJolly's Annual one design survey is now out.

One Design Class Survey

Bottom Line only the Hobie 16 Class makes it into the top 25 with a running three year average above 40 boats.
Quote
Welcome once again to the annual One Design Survey Corrections post.
The Flying Scott, Albacore and Interlake classes need correction.

I neglected to combine the Championship and Challenger fleet in the Flying Scott. The two fleets combined come to 101 boats. I made a simmilar mistake with he Interlake class.

I missed the Albacore US Nationals and used the Canadians. The US Nationals had 50 boats. This was a bit more than the Canadians this year because the US Nationals was just before the class International Championship. Some UK boats were in the mix.

The new corrected list with three year averages is as follows.

1) MC Scow-82.33
2) Thistle-81.33
3) Radial-81.00
4) Laser-80.67
5) Lightning-72.33
6) Sunfish-66.67
7) Flying Scott-65.33
8) E Scow-63.33
9) J/22-61.00
10) Snipe-59.67
11) Hobie 16-58.00
12) 29er-56.67
13) Star-56.33
14) C Scow-53.67
15) J/2451.67
16) Interlake-49.00
17) Albacore-47.33
18) Lido 14-46.33
19) Melges 24-45.67
20) J/105-45.00
21) Etchells-43.00
21) Butterfly-43.00
21) Vanguard 15-43.00
24) Inter Club-40.33
25) Y Flyer-40.00

For rules on scoring check the link.
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2007/...OD%20survey.htm

Send more corrections if you have them.


Seems to me... that our classes need to do a better job of organizing our efforts and commiting to supporting our classes if we want to grow our portion of the sport.

Hell... the 29ner class is less then 10 years old and they have as many committed sailors as the Hobie 16 class which is going on 40!

But here we go again... Bim is annoucing another F16 like boat...BUT it doesn't conform to the F16 class rule... OR to the Level rated class of Nacra 17/ Hobie FX1 extreme's either...

Mark


Yeah, and negativity has nothing to do with class strenth. Your attitude is all wrong. How about rejoycing in the fact that the H16 came in at #11. It is the stepping stone for other cats.


Agreed - I'm learning that it takes only a couple of energetic and dedicated people to make an incredible difference in a class. Excitement is a tender and delicate thing.


Jake Kohl
#127626 - 01/04/08 09:52 AM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: mmadge]  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 124
peter_nelson Offline
member
peter_nelson  Offline
member

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 124
offshore
OK, how about everyone sell their cats and buy a Hobie 16?!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Time Warp Racing
Hobie 14, 16, & 17, Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 45.2
#127627 - 01/04/08 10:07 AM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: peter_nelson]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,301
TeamChums Offline
veteran
TeamChums  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,301
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
No offense but I refuse to step backwards. The "Hobie Way of Life" is what turned me off to all that when I watched them talk down about my friends who had Prindles and Nacras. Even when I had my 21SE I was told that I "would not be allowed on the water" at the Mid Winters in San Felipe in 2002 since there were no other 21's coming. I guess they forgot it was a Hobie since they stopped making them. The 16 is a strong fleet, I'll recognize that but the "Exclusive Club" scene is not for me.

Lee Wicklund/Team Chums N20


Lee

Sail fast or get the hell out of the way.
#127628 - 01/04/08 10:32 AM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: TeamChums]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,927
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,927
Lee,

"I refuse to step backwards" is about as offensive as one can get.

The Hobie class continues to evolve, and we are working to support all Hobie Cat sailors, but like anything else in life, we can't undo things that were done poorly in the past unless people on both sides are willing.

One of the biggest challenges at any regatta is what to do with poor turnouts of individual classes. Hobie regattas are the exception, not the norm, when it comes to leaving the invitation open to all Hobie classes until the morning of the event. For example, most YCs require pre-registration, with minimum numbers required to allow a class to race. Yes, for weekend regattas. They simply won't allow their budgets to be exposed to the unknown.

Of course, since that wasn't done in your case, the response that you received doesn't seem right. I don't know that I would have left the class over it, but that's ultimately up to you.

Mike

#127629 - 01/04/08 11:11 AM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: brucat]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,301
TeamChums Offline
veteran
TeamChums  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,301
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
I know I probably should not have started on this one. I tried to stay optimistic on things and even volunteered to help out at Hobie events in hopes that they would come around and let us back in thier regattas. One event organizer on the west coast suggested giving the N20's a start at the Ventura Blue Water Regatta since it was put on by a Yacht Club and not insured by Hobie. A (I will not name) 16 A fleet sailor over heard this and came unglued about it since it was a "Points Regatta". There was actually saliva flying out of his mouth with his words! I think it's great that the 16 class is so strong. I also think some of the TOP catamaran racers are in that class. But I also think they need to realize TOTAL regatta attendance helps keep these races running year after year.
My point is that I left that mind set to sail with everyone. I would not want to go back to sailing where everyone was not welcome.

Lee Wicklund


Lee

Sail fast or get the hell out of the way.
#127630 - 01/04/08 11:59 AM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: TeamChums]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 224
Tri_X_Troll Offline
enthusiast
Tri_X_Troll  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 224
Cincinnati, Ohio
Perhaps I'm a tool, but I've noticed that many MC owners do less recreational sailing, while cat owners tend to do more recreational sailing........


Ryan - H16 I prefer to go sailing because baseball, football, tennis, and golf only require 1 ball!
#127631 - 01/04/08 12:17 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Tri_X_Troll]  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
HobieZealot Offline
member
HobieZealot  Offline
member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
There are plenty of catamaran classes represented in this thread so far. If it takes 40 boats at Nationals to get on the scoreboard what is your class doing to achieve that milestone?
I'm guessing that the A's and the F18's are within striking distance. What are the growth strategies for these classes?

#127632 - 01/04/08 01:09 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Tri_X_Troll]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,279
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,279
South Carolina
Quote
Perhaps I'm a tool, but I've noticed that many MC owners do less recreational sailing, while cat owners tend to do more recreational sailing........


That's because an MC is not a comfortable boat to sail! Especially in light air...having to duck under the boom while sitting on the low side.


Jake Kohl
#127633 - 01/04/08 01:34 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: HobieZealot]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Annapolis, MD
Quote
Ther If it takes 40 boats at Nationals to get on the scoreboard what is your class doing to achieve that milestone?
.... What are the growth strategies for these classes?


EXACTLY THE POINT!

Apart from your personal interest in simply growing your class participation, the big picture is to get US Sailing Olympic back on board and supporting the inclusion of cat's in the games!

It's reasonable for them to look at participation in a class nationally!

What is your class plan?

The Hobie 16 class organized, got money and built a fantastic trailer to haul 6 or 8 boats to nationals! Now THAT is a plan!

The F18 class is running THREE nationals in 08... I would love for some one to explain to me how that will get you to 40 boats! I don't think they will add them together! IMO, This is NOT a plan.


crac.sailregattas.com
#127634 - 01/04/08 01:44 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Mark Schneider]  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Organization and the INDIVIDUALS who take initative and makes things happen. Organization help, but without the individuals who cares, gets involved, starts things up and follows trough nothing much happens.

#127635 - 01/04/08 02:46 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: TeamChums]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,927
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,927
Sounds like you have a lot going on there Lee. You were thrown out of a Hobie event with a Hobie boat, that I can see as unfair.

Then, you are complaining about not getting into a Hobie event with a non-Hobie. That's where you're losing me.

This is tough for a lot of people to accept (as the past few years have clearly shown), but genuinely, the Hobie-only policy is NOT about people, it's about the boats. No one wants to turn anyone away, we just want them to come to Hobie events sailing, I don't know... HOBIE CATS?!?!?!?

The irony here is that in this single thread, there are complaints about cat classes not being built, then complaints about a cat class that tried to do something to discourage further splitting of the few Hobie classes that remain...

Rolf is 100% right, and others here have mentioned this important point in other threads. We're very fortunate to have very dedicated volunteers to make the Hobie class a success.

Mike

#127636 - 01/04/08 03:02 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Mark Schneider]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,279
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,279
South Carolina
three nationals in '08? Where did you find that? I haven't been able to find one nationals.


Jake Kohl
#127637 - 01/04/08 03:15 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: brucat]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Rhino1302 Offline
enthusiast
Rhino1302  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
Quote
Sounds like you have a lot going on there Lee. You were thrown out of a Hobie event with a Hobie boat, that I can see as unfair.

Then, you are complaining about not getting into a Hobie event with a non-Hobie. That's where you're losing me.

This is tough for a lot of people to accept (as the past few years have clearly shown), but genuinely, the Hobie-only policy is NOT about people, it's about the boats. No one wants to turn anyone away, we just want them to come to Hobie events sailing, I don't know... HOBIE CATS?!?!?!?

The irony here is that in this single thread, there are complaints about cat classes not being built, then complaints about a cat class that tried to do something to discourage further splitting of the few Hobie classes that remain...

Rolf is 100% right, and others here have mentioned this important point in other threads. We're very fortunate to have very dedicated volunteers to make the Hobie class a success.

Mike


The Hobie only policy is about getting a bigger slice of the pie. It has the side effect of shrinking the pie.

Growing a class shouldn't be a negative-sum game.

#127638 - 01/04/08 03:26 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Barry Offline
member
Barry  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Code
This is tough for a lot of people to accept (as the past few years have clearly shown), but genuinely, the Hobie-only policy is NOT about people, it's about the boats. No one wants to turn anyone away, we just want them to come to Hobie events sailing, I don't know... HOBIE CATS?!?!?!?
  

Mike,
So which is more important? Who (as in people) have benefited from the the changes in our back yard? When was the last time was saw each other? I am not bitter, (anymore) but it has hurt catamaran sailing in New England. What can be done to save it?
We are running the BSSC again this year. As a direct beneficiary of the BSSC, whould you support it with us?

#127639 - 01/04/08 03:28 PM Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Jake]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Annapolis, MD
Tigers in BC Canada
F18's Michigan
NAF18's Florida in October

Who knows.. the Capricorns might have a nationals as well.


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