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Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: Wouter] #134259
03/03/08 02:53 PM
03/03/08 02:53 PM
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Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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"16 footers performing on a par with F18's."

Waiting to see that one!


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: TEAMVMG] #134260
03/03/08 03:44 PM
03/03/08 03:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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I love the: "I think I have been right in the past, So I must be right this time" approach....


Dare I ask how the eternal search for a broadseam in a 3DL sail is going....??


Back to the topic rather than some errant ramblings..

If the Finn mast builders can build masts accuratly to spec (and for a good price) why isn't it possible to expect the same from the Tornado mast builder?


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Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: macca] #134261
03/03/08 04:01 PM
03/03/08 04:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
I believe the exclusive rights to producing the Tornado class legal Carbon stick expired after 3 years.

One of the big incentives for the class was the need to replace your perfect mast... rarely did a team have two identical perfect masts...

Now... you might not like yourcarbon mast... but it won't break.

So, if marstrom can't get it right (in some people's opinion) .... that's an opportunity... right?

Last time... three teams built their own alu sticks because Marstom could not get it right... (and the class rules were not particularly strngent. The rules were re written and are much tighter now.

Is there a real need to build re engineered carbon masts?

So .... Which teams are doing that in carbon NOW?

That is the interesting question!

Now... it may be a closely held secret... but I am sure there are rumors! spill the beans


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: Mark Schneider] #134262
03/03/08 04:10 PM
03/03/08 04:10 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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Ok, most of the top 20 teams now have more than three times the masts compared to the boats they own....

They has been a lot of mast trading going on allowing people to find a mast that suits what they are looking for.

The exclusive build rights have expired, but there was a lot of delay in getting Marstrom to supply the build spec to ISAF. The first spec was sent in Swedish (handwritten..) and was actually detailing his general build method for any part... only in the last 12 months has a spec and Lam sched been approved by ISAF. This is now available to new builders... not too many are keen to invest in a class thats not Olympic after August.

There were some very high quality builders wanting the specs so they could build masts but now I doubt it will go anywhere.


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Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: TEAMVMG] #134263
03/03/08 04:54 PM
03/03/08 04:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

Waiting to see that one!


Abre los ojos !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: macca] #134264
03/03/08 05:13 PM
03/03/08 05:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Quote

If the Finn mast builders can build masts accuratly to spec (and for a good price) why isn't it possible to expect the same from the Tornado mast builder?



Because science and engineering is never that simple.

Here some more ramblings :

Take a piece of carbon laminate tubing, length 3 mtr.

Say the proces of carbon cloth laminating is accurate in reproducing the wallthickness to say 2% and lets assume for simplicity that this variantion is constant along the full length of the tube and that there are no other factors (in reality there are).

That gives a 2% variation of the tip deflection when the bending radii aren't too large. Say this variation leads to variations in tip flexing in a batch of tube off say 2 mm.

Now take 4.5 mtr tubes (1.5 times the length of the first tube) cut from the same batch of laminated (mother) tubes.

How much will the variation in tip deflection be on a batch of these longer tubes ?

Think about this a little while.


...


...


...

Everybody raise their hand who think it will be 2 * 1.5 = 3 mm ? (Yes, Macca, that means you too)

The real answer is 6,75 mm or nearly 3.5 times as much, despite the tube being ONLY 1.5 times longer and from the same "accurate" batch !

So the same production proces, with identical accuracy, can still lead to surprisingly large variations in the end product depending on simple amplifiers like geometric shapes (length in this example).

That, my dear friends, is called non-linearity.

Perceptive minds reading this will immediately recognize that production related variance can not be solved by any changes in crossection shape, layup or anything like that. It is a property of the production proces and subject to the state of technology at this time. Carbon laminate technology is no different then any other technology in this respect.

Now start adding the natural variations in other components like spreaders and diamond wires and the situation gets increasingly worse.

Each component added to a mast will add another cause for variations and deteriorates the dependability of the end result. Length quickly aggerates the overall effect (=amplifier), Tornado masts are part of the longest and most complex in the business, Finn masts are among the shortest and simplest. (Spreaders/no spreaders etc)

And there your Finn class comparison falls flat, again.

You may be a very good sailor, but you may want to stick to what you known best; driving a boat fast. Because in all honesty you are not very knowlegdeable about any engineering stuff and that includes the 3D sail stuff.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/03/08 05:33 PM.
Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: macca] #134265
03/03/08 05:40 PM
03/03/08 05:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Posts: 9,582
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Quote

Ok, most of the top 20 teams now have more than three times the masts compared to the boats they own....



Ohh, I'm loving this !

Remember everybody ; "three times the masts ..." at 7500 euro's a pop!

That investment is enough to make a new die, 50 aluminium masts and pay for transport to anywhere in the world !

If these each top crew would have gone down that route, they could have picked the best 5 masts from the batch and sell or scrap the remainder and be MORE One-Design then with the carbon mast upgrade and spend LESS money !

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/03/08 05:42 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: Wouter] #134266
03/03/08 05:41 PM
03/03/08 05:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Quote
Quote

If the Finn mast builders can build masts accuratly to spec (and for a good price) why isn't it possible to expect the same from the Tornado mast builder?



Because science and engineering is never that simple.

...

Now start adding the natural variations in other components like spreaders and diamond wires and the situation gets increasingly worse.

Each component added to a mast will add another cause for variations and deteriorates the dependability of the end result. Length quickly aggerates the overall effect (=amplifier), Tornado masts are part of the longest and most complex in the business, Finn masts are among the shortest and simplest. (Spreaders/no spreaders etc)
...


Hey, that's the point I was making earlier up this thread...Looks like I scooped the WOUT! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Do I win some kind of prize? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: Tornado] #134267
03/03/08 05:45 PM
03/03/08 05:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Tornado,

Quote

Hey, that's the point I was making earlier up this thread...Looks like I scooped the WOUT!

Do I win some kind of prize?



Your posts were indeed by far the best in the thread and spot on.

You should earn the respect by everyone for that, but I'll doubt you'll get it.

But at least you have my respect.

Now, if everybody will excuse me. I have to finish the dynamic modelling of a harbour side sea container crane. Was supposed to have that one finished last week, but ... don't tell my boss that !

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/03/08 05:45 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: Wouter] #134268
03/03/08 05:48 PM
03/03/08 05:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
Actually the fact that the Tornado has diamonds makes it easier to control the dynamic bend.

Have a look here for the Tornado mast static bend tests

http://www.tornado.org/html/carbon_mast_data.asp

Also a Tornado mast is nowhere near the "longest in the business" nor is the Finn "among the shortest" as you say...

A Finn mast is just over 6.5m long and a T mast is from memory 9.2m.

As an aside, we had two masts built for an AC boat, we wanted them identical. Guess what! they were, both in static measurements and in use. The methods used to measure those masts were the best possible. The 5 sets of spreaders, running backstays, jumpers, checkstays and other bits I can't really talk about here gives an AC mast a lot more variables than the single set of diamonds on a Tornad mast. Yet its possible to produce two masts with the same bend properties?? defies belief hey!!

So its possble with a Finn mast (6.5m) and an AC mast (32m) and the Tornado mast is somewhere in the middle of those two in length...

Also the section size of the Tornado mast is much larger than the finn mast, both in real terms and as a % of length compared to the finn mast.

Oh, and using extruded alloy tube as an example isn't so good considering alloy tube inconsistencies is the whole reason we went to carbon in the first place!


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Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: macca] #134269
03/03/08 06:07 PM
03/03/08 06:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Tornado  Offline
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My mast is #214 on the static load test chart. It's one of the heavier sticks at 15 kg...and it would appear to be on the stiff side of the average. Equal port/starboard bending.

Macca,

How does one derive the dynamic flex measurements? Is it subjective...go out and fit a sail and sail the boat? Do you then take that sail and put it on another mast and try to guesstimate the differences? How are diamond tension, spreader arm angles, hound positions accounted for?

Can the variations been tuned out to fit a given sail via adjustments to diamonds/arms/downhaul?


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: Tornado] #134270
03/03/08 06:48 PM
03/03/08 06:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Most teams take the same sail and test it on different masts, if the diamonds (spreader rake and diamond tension) are the same (hence no longer a variable) and the sail sets up differently then we further investigate the mast.

Measurements are taken with a fixed camera rig mounted on the top of the mast, offsets are measured and the differences are measured.

We also measure the mast in use with load cells attached to the diamonds, mast step, shrouds and forestay. This is recorded and matched to the photos taken at the time.

Interestingly some masts, Such as yours, are stiff in the static tests and soft in the dynamic situations...

Small variations can be tuned out but its hard to get really confident with one mast then change to another. they behave differently accross the wind range. Not so much of a problem if you only have one mast though!


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Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: Wouter] #134271
03/04/08 06:19 AM
03/04/08 06:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Quote
Take a piece of carbon laminate tubing, length 3 mtr.

Say the proces of carbon cloth laminating is accurate in reproducing the wallthickness to say 2% and lets assume for simplicity that this variantion is constant along the full length of the tube and that there are no other factors (in reality there are).


bad form to change a post that has alreay been commented on.... You had alloy as your example before realising it wasn't really working for you hey....


Quote

You may be a very good sailor, but you may want to stick to what you known best; driving a boat fast. Because in all honesty you are not very knowlegdeable about any engineering stuff and that includes the 3D sail stuff.

Wouter


Funny that I get employed to fix problems engineers create then... Still waiting for the proof on the 3DL broadseam too by the way. I have a contact list for North Sails here if you want some email addresses or phone numbers.

Theory is just that... theory. The real world is different to what you have learnt in school. There are some companies and individuals in the sailing world that can and do what you claim is impossible. Well the proof is in the doing and they have done it. BMWO have two masts for USA 87 that are identical in any and all practical ways. The masts are over 32 metres long and have many "variables" like spreaders and associated standing and running rigging. By your reasoning the bend should vary between masts by metres at that length! when in fact the variances are measured in 10ths of a mm.

Stick to school champion, I'll stay out here in the real world. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


________________________
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Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: Wouter] #134272
03/04/08 06:28 AM
03/04/08 06:28 AM
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Quote


Ohh, I'm loving this !

Remember everybody ; "three times the masts ..." at 7500 euro's a pop!

That investment is enough to make a new die, 50 aluminium masts and pay for transport to anywhere in the world !

If these each top crew would have gone down that route, they could have picked the best 5 masts from the batch and sell or scrap the remainder and be MORE One-Design then with the carbon mast upgrade and spend LESS money !

Wouter


You are correct that the investment is large, but small compared to the rest of the campign costs.

A Tornado mast is not 7500 Euro each though.... more like 3900 Euro a go, but who really cares if you are out by over 50%... wouldn't be the first time.

The whole point I was making is that the masts were voted in to be a one design mast, therefore negating the need to have a quiver of masts like we used to. The project has failed in that regard.

The masts are excellent in all other regards, they rarely break and can take a lot of abuse. The boat is much nicer to sail both upwind and down. rigging is super easy now too <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: macca] #134273
03/04/08 09:09 AM
03/04/08 09:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Posts: 9,582
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Quote

... if the diamonds (spreader rake and diamond tension) are the same (hence no longer a variable) ...



Doesn't work that way. That only equalizes the pretension of a spring of still unknown spring constant variation and it is exactly the latter that is most dominant in determinining the dynamic behaviour. In effect the level of pretension has absolutely no effect on the range of the variance of the diamond wires spring constant. Interestingly enough, these rods are either extruded or rolled to their shape; processes where Macca has nothing but disdain for as signalled in oen of his latter posts.

Again this is a perfect example of how a static situation can differ significantly from a "dynamic" situation; exactly the situation we have encountered with the Tornado carbon mast for example.


Or explained by a school level example :

Hang two identical weights from two individual springs (or bungee cords) of unequal length.

The tension in both springs is as identical as the weights are but when you let both systems oscillate up and down then you will see significant differences in oscillation time, travelled path lenght and momentary speeds.

Everybody can do this experiment at home and witness the above results themselves.

We must be careful not to convince ourselves of viewpoints that are not truthful.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/04/08 09:14 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: macca] #134274
03/04/08 09:17 AM
03/04/08 09:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

... bad form to change a post that has alreay been commented on....



It is indeed, however

my post was already finalized at : Mon Mar 03 2008 11:13 PM

while your reply was finalized at : Mon Mar 03 2008 11:48 PM

Meaning that according to you I'm now also guilty of being clear voyant !

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/04/08 09:18 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: macca] #134275
03/04/08 09:33 AM
03/04/08 09:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
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Quote

Stick to school champion, I'll stay out here in the real world



You almost make it look like you feel schooling is a bad thing.

I guess we can't all be be born with superior knowledge pre-installed, so us mortals just have to take the bad (schooling) with the good (times) in this respect.

But to get to your AC mast example. I will garantee you that those are masts are indeed not identical. They are made to behave identically from the viewpoints of the measured values by several fine-tune mechanisms like multiple stays and spreaders. As such they fall under my earlier statement :

Quote

Industry does this in an overwhelming manner where the components can not be adjusted after they are produced ...


As found in this posting : http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...umber=136138&page=0&vc=1

Sadly the Tornado mast lack sufficient adjustable mechanism to do the same thing. The most obvious example of that is of course the mast section above the hound and diamond wire fitting. This is a pure cantilever. But also the bottom part is not much different as the mechanism that is avaliable, diamond wires/spreader, is already used up by setting the STATIC prebend. In fact it would be better if the masts were first measured for their dynamic behaviour and then had customer diamond rods selected to complete the variance in these. The choice to go OD down to the diamond wires rod is actually aggrevating the problem as that removes a degree of freedom from the system that could be well exploited.

Explanations exist for all the other questions you keep repeating and I won't refer you to these answering posts anymore because you simply ignore them anyway.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: macca] #134276
03/04/08 11:55 AM
03/04/08 11:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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waynemarlow  Offline
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Posts: 893
Your use of an AC boat mast is a poor example, pay any engineering company enough money and you can get a pretty reliably consistant result in most production methods from being willing to sacrifice any unit not in specified tolerances.

With the AC boat masts my guess is they made 10 or so masts and hand picked the two most similar, probably trashed the rest so that other teams wouldn't be able use them.

To get consistant results within tight tolerances from a budget production method ( marstrom for example ) one would have to over engineer the product so much to over compensate layup differences ( after all humans did design the engineering process )that the end result would look similar mast to mast but not the lightest nor cheapest

Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: waynemarlow] #134277
03/04/08 12:56 PM
03/04/08 12:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Tornado  Offline
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Posts: 1,197
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Quote
Your use of an AC boat mast is a poor example, pay any engineering company enough money and you can get a pretty reliably consistant result in most production methods from being willing to sacrifice any unit not in specified tolerances.

With the AC boat masts my guess is they made 10 or so masts and hand picked the two most similar, probably trashed the rest so that other teams wouldn't be able use them.

To get consistant results within tight tolerances from a budget production method ( marstrom for example ) one would have to over engineer the product so much to over compensate layup differences ( after all humans did design the engineering process )that the end result would look similar mast to mast but not the lightest nor cheapest


Or, look at it another way...Make ~400 AC masts. Now do the measuring...see how many are "identical".

I'm willing to bet at least 2 Marstrom masts are "identical".

Also, pay Marstom a proportional amount of $$$ to build two masts identical and see what happens.

P.S.: Macca & Wouter...please take your long running personnel attacks back to the F16 forum where they came from. They are getting tedious to wade through and I'd hate to see the general forum require moderators.


Last edited by Tornado; 03/04/08 12:59 PM.

Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Tornado Carbon Mast [Re: Tornado] #134278
03/04/08 01:09 PM
03/04/08 01:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
Todd Berget Offline
member
Todd Berget  Offline
member
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Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
Macca,

I hope these guys don't deter you too much from posting. I for one enjoy the insight given from someone who is competing at a level I can only aspire to. I'm also an engineer and may not agree with everything you say, but I think you make some very valid arguments and raise some interesting points. It's also interesting to see how if you don't align with some people's personal agendas, they try to shoot down everything you have to say. It definitely provides for some good entertainment.


Todd Nacra 20 www.wrcra.org
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