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#14095 - 12/13/02 11:22 AM classes chutes and stuff  
Joined: Jul 2001
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sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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MI
copy from old forum -

Posted by 6.0 class vote from 216.223.205.5 on December 12, 19102 at 12:15:39:

The board of directors along with Performance Catamarans Inc. came to a unanimous decision regarding the 6.0 NA class vote on spinnakers. Due to lack of participation from the members and owners it was concluded that the class should stay as is for around-the-buoys racing, but because of the clear trend of those who did vote, add a one-design spinnaker package for point-to-point racing. (Long Distance)
It was clear that there has been an increase in 6.0 participation in long distance races and that spinnaker use for these has become the norm. The basic communications have all pointed for a closed one designed spinnaker package so as to stop the uncontrolled arms race in theses open events. With this in mind the board recommends the development of a spinnaker package
for long distance racing only as per rule # 8.Once sail and package has been developed the rule will be modified to fit the new updated sail plan.
Performance Catamarans Inc. has indicated it will work to complete a package as soon
as possible for the beginning of 2003 season.

My offbeat humor again upon reading the 6/0 spin ruling posted on the old forum reminds me of a Rodney Dangerfield comedy movie about going back to college along with his son with the great line in it, -;call when you have no class.; -------the Triple Lindy dive, -it;s a classic comedy.—anyway-
How many small groups dwindling in number and dead boat classes do we have now spread out around N A, -how many more are on their way to the same fate with dwindling numbers of discouraged sailors that want great class racing.
How many similar groups would like to upgrade and modify boats with spin and snuffer packages in various forms with spin and sails of their choosing for buoys and also becoming more popular great distance races like the new 500 mile Keys to Tybee race. Also the numerous other races where specialized modification is really needed not only for better boat speed but real concerns and safety issues at sea in these types of ocean distance races.

Most boat mfg. have a biz agreement with a particular sail-making firm to produce their sails that they are bound and obligated to uphold. This obviously limits and defines decisions as applied to many mfg. boats. Not just sail limitations, but reef points, and furler types for them , -hardware, -trampoline type and design, mast ,-stays -through the entire list of mfg. class rules intended for mfg. class racing of all the same specific mfg. boat.
Huge variations do occur in these classes with sails, -shapes, -spin variations &;jib types –boat weights, -new upgrades and retrofits for them, and numerous individual modifications that occurs in all classes.

N 6/o s have the original version, -N A version, -Express version, -there are at least 2 with C F masts, -and other versions. Spin sizes we used in the 98 &99 Worrell on the 6/0s were 440 sq. ft range; many have used the 270 sq. ft spin on the 6/0. Current P rating has no standard uniform method to begin {no official class spin} and no accurate way to account for spin size variations or really any specific design variation. One mod. Factor number is used, applied to very different class rules. Again there is no standard consistent basis for this to apply to in P rating based in average times in buoys racing by skippers of very different abilities in each class

Indications from individual leg records over the years of the Worrell would indicate the I-20 being slightly faster even than the 6/0 with huge chute having the majority of those, 6 being set last year on the I-20. Weather dependent but some indication of speed potential in records over time. Better faster versions of the 6/0are certainly possible, but indications are it is not through larger spin sizes alone.
6/0 versions with original self tacking jib -sq top main ,lighter simplified mast , and higher aspect smaller sq ft chute may prove much faster over the range of conditions.

We have new Formula 16 -18 -18 HT and many good reasons to have a N A F-20 class The first I F-20 championships are in Europe this year, more than 100 are expected.

All Formula classes in N A will draw in numerous new teams and people into the sport sailing on numerous brands of cat design with great events along with them over time.
One design, developmental classes, -rated racing, -Formula racing, -it is always great to have these choices. There is a class for each that meets their needs and requirements.

Sailing clubs fleets and event organizers that wish to promote the sport of catamaran racing as their mission statement, constitution and organizational intent would indicate will encourage and assist all these efforts and see their organization and events grow in popularity along with the total numbers involved in participation –total boat sales, -sail making, parts gear and equipment sales and so many different aspects in this great sport of catamaran sailing.

Happy Holidays
Carl

-- Have You Seen This? --
#14096 - 12/13/02 09:36 PM Re: classes chutes and stuff [Re: sail6000]  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 364
Andrew Offline
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Andrew  Offline
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I see the need for a 20' Formula rule that is somewhat recognized. To me, and I'm very fallible in this regard, the best course would be to do as the F16's have done, and name a couple of foundation boats. For instance, the I-20 (US version) as well as the N 6.O with a particular chute, whether it be the New England one @ 350 sq ft, or the I-20 chute @ 270 sq ft, or some other. This way, existing boats could be raced/scored both one-design and F20 until the critical mass developed to allow consistent Formula racing. Despite the 6.O's reputation as the "Boat that Floats" the I-20 has consistently shown the ability to be competitive under crews up to 410 lbs (Wallace and Gumpel, the hotshots from San Diego, routine race and win on the Inter at a combined 400-410 lbs). Meanwhile, teams as light as 340 are very competitive in a variety of wind ranges as well. 6.O's seem happier closer to 350-380. Anyway, I'd like very much for a firm F20 rule to be adopted in the US, with at least two grandfathered boats, in the near future.

my $0.01


Andrew Tatton Nacra 20 "Wiggle Stick" #266 Nacra 18 Square #12
#14097 - 12/14/02 06:01 AM Re: classes chutes and stuff [Re: Andrew]  
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Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,279
South Carolina
Andrew,

Let me first say that I think that the formula classes will be the wave of the future. With all the various manufacturers now splintering the class racing, I think the drive for more similar racing will continue to push us toward formula. The U.S. is a bit behind in the proliferation of formula.

While I agree with you in principle, I know I will never be satisfied racing my 6.0na as a formula boat because the playing field will never be consistent. Even if you pick chutes and make allowances for one design over another, there will always be large differences in boat speed in different wind and water conditions between the existing 20 footers. Because of this, it will be difficult and frustrating for me as a racer to figure out how my skills and boat are performing at any given time.

Even the formula classes that are active in the U.S. (with the exception of the A class boats) largely consist of boats from one manufacturer. Grandfathering in boats is a way to help bring up participation in the formula classes but I am of the belief that if the boats weren't designed for the formula rules that it is unlikely they will be competitive and that the (serious) sailors will be frustrated. Hopefully the strongest building formula classes in the US, F18HT and F16HT, will soon see the introduction of other manufacturers.


Jake Kohl
#14098 - 12/14/02 08:55 AM Re: classes chutes and stuff [Re: sail6000]  
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pitchpoledave Offline
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pitchpoledave  Offline
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Toronto, Ontario
Hi,
Formula 20 sounds good, but do you think that a N6.0 with spin can keep up with an I20 around the marks? What about even with a new sailplan: squaretop main, maybe smaller jib? Long distance I think probably, but I don't know about upwind...In any event people would probably buy the I20. It would take a full commitment from PC to update the N60. They probably don't want to do that...They will just tell us to go and get an I20. And what about the Hobie 20 and others? Do they update their sail plans into formula 20 with even less hope of beating the I20?
I think that the idea is great, but not sure if it is a level playing field? What do you think?
Dave


#14099 - 12/14/02 10:44 AM Re: classes chutes and stuff [Re: pitchpoledave]  
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sail6000 Offline
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MI
Hi Dave

We saw a number of different 20 ft designs with chutes added win distance races this past season , a good indication of the potential all these boats have as they are modified and improved .
Just as with all Formula classes good spin -snuffer systems are needed to be competitive in buoys racing ,-larger chutes with not perfected snuff systems will require refinement on all boats ,-better systems will be developed.
Also just as in other Formula classes differences in hull shape will slightly favor one type over another.These differences will not offset a good start ,tactical sailing and going to the favored wind velocity and shift , your talking seconds in a weather leg maybe. A boat at speed travels its own length in approx one second.Again a good start often places you 10 length ahead of competition .
The I-20 hull shape with its large buoyant forward sections has a weakness in light to med air speed in waves and choppy conditions being bounced around much more as compared to the 6/0 or H-type more knifelike bow and forward sections.

Fun stuff -we will all learn so much from this type of racing -
Happy Holidays
Carl

#14100 - 12/14/02 10:54 AM Re: classes chutes and stuff [Re: Andrew]  
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sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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MI

Hi Andrew
THANKS for the always great posts.

Here is a link to the current N A F-20 rules

http://www.lakelaniersailing.com/f20class/

They are basic and hopefully good folks will get involved . Any can start one in your area and sailing club to help promote F-racing and define and shape these rules further as needed along with growth in the class.
If you check the F-20 forum there are a list of 20 ft boats that all fit into the rule ,-it includes all 20 ft 8.5 beam production cats .
Start a fleet of F-20S IN YOUR AREA !!

HAPPY HOLIDAYS
Carl

#14101 - 12/14/02 11:02 AM Re: classes chutes and stuff [Re: Jake]  
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sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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MI
Hi Jake

Heard these types of discussion the last few years as they pertain to all Formula classes .

Hull shape differences are not going to be substanntial on 20 ft 8.5 beam designed cats with huge sailplans that these have .
The wonderfull part of Formula is if you don't like your boat performance -change it with sails -modification -snuff system of your choosing . -For distance racing with safety issues and extreme type conditions sometimes encountered this is mandatory .

more on the old forum
Happy Holidays Jake
lets make it a great 03 sailing season
Carl

#14102 - 12/14/02 03:40 PM Re: classes chutes and stuff [Re: sail6000]  
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pitchpoledave Offline
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pitchpoledave  Offline
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Toronto, Ontario
Hi Carl,
If PC approves a spin of greater than 300 sq feet spin for the Nacra 6.0 then these boats will fall out of the NAF20 limit. What do these sailors do?

Is it possible to change the max spin size for the 410lb boats to 350?
Dave

#14103 - 12/14/02 04:46 PM Re: classes chutes and stuff [Re: pitchpoledave]  
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sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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MI
Hi Dave

All formula classes have a dispensation rule to help older existing boats fit into a Formula catagory -

Most feel the 346 sq ft version chute is O K on a standard N A 6/0 , but the need to allow similar chute size on other older existing 20s then becomes necessary . Some standard consistant design means needs to be established as applied to this dispensation rule .
The 6/0 has a heavier boat weight ,-heavier mast with added weight in stays and rigging ,-a smaller standard main etc as design reasons to compensate this older design with larger chute . Once the 6/0 was modified in other ways it would then need a 300 sq ft chute or 270 sq ft chute per boat weight catagory ,-but would then modify as many other aspects of the boat they wished to max specs per rules outline. This version would most likely be a potentially lighter faster safer more easily handled one .
H-20s have a heavy comptip shorter mast and smaller main as standard ,-they would have a similar option on chute size increase to some extent if requested ,-or could just modify these aspects of the boat under max specs for all boats per rules, again a faster version would be the result.

-Indications are boats that modify will be faster ,but if local class racing is part of the season plans for an individual then this option is ideal , Once the class gets large numbers all these issues will be desided by members vote.Rules were left as open as possible to allow them to develop and be defined by its membership ,-this may be the first issue -rule defined in more definative terms using design .

Ideally Performance would designate a 300 sq ft chute for the class 6/0 ,-but Formula is very accomodating to all 20 -8.5 beam spin cats that want to race together .If a 300 sq ft class version was designated any version 6/0 -Express original or others could all race ,-or improve any aspect of the boat to max specs ,-in this scenario .

It-gets a little confusing,-class rules which are all over he place and inconsistant between each other ,but all boats can have the same maximum sail areas under Formula rules .
Again this dispensation only applies to older existing cats .

Hope all the great folks at NEMSA and all major sailing clubs fleets groups and event organizers will consider adopting this for use and get involved in Formula racing in all length classes .

Happy Holidays
Carl

#14104 - 12/14/02 05:38 PM Re: added race results [Re: sail6000]  
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sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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MI
unofficial Steeplechase boat finishes --actual -


Robbie Daniel - Tornado
Matt Struble - F18HT - 7:45 back
Tommy Bahama - I-20 - 9:57 back
Team Tybee - I-20 - 14:40 back
John Casey - I-20 - 15:27 back
Rick Bliss - Nacra 6.0 - 20:12 back
Richard Feeney - Nacra 6.0 - 22:20 back
Dan Lawrence - Nacra 6.0
Kirk Newkirk - I-20
Eric Roberts - Supercat
Dave Ingram - I-20
Rick Loewen - I-20
Clive Mayo - Nacra 6.0
Nacra 6.0
#112 - Nacra 6.0
#30 - Nacra 6.0 Express
146 Nacra 6.0
Brian Lambert - F18 HT
Nacra 6.0
Mark Lavine - I-20
Brian Carr - I-20
John McGlocklin - I-20
Jay Roth - I-20
Dave White - Nacra 6.0
Loyd Barry - Hobie 21
Terry Green I-18
Todd Hart - I-20
Chris Runge - I-20
Mike Krantz - F18 HT
Prindle 19 MX
Boog Newkirk - I-18
Mark Hernendene - I-20
#274 Nacra 6

great racing to all ,All teams are very excellent racing sailors ,particularly the top several Worrell teams this year.
this could easily be a 20 or potentially 26 boat Formula 20 race - there are ht-18s 18s and a T and SC also in open .

can't wait to see {corrected } times ,-why in distance racing?
ratings based on standard class boats in buoys racing ,spin no spin who.s carrying ,-ratings games -adjustments --why .

here are the real results of who sailed well .



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