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#147705 - 07/15/08 06:18 PM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Tiger]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 974
Clayton Offline
old hand
Clayton  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 974
South Louisiana, USA
Quote
Ahh, LIABILITY

The most frequent excuse to do nothing... As a result, in many places in the world, cat sailing is getting bigger, sailing schools are successfull, but here? The thing is just shrinking and disapearing or at best stagnating. Look at the recent F18 worlds, it will give you an accurate picture.

Right, better stay at home and watch TV, it is safer.


Being cautious is not too bad. Because of our litigious (sp?) society I can no longer get insurance for my workers. An employee filed a bogus claim (trust me it is) and because I only have one or 2 at a time they consider me too high of a risk. Now IF I can find it, I can't afford it... all because someone wants a free ride on my dime. Of course those who just work for a check have no clue what it takes to run a business. So now we'll have to "stay home and watch TV" because of the "liability".

Walk in the shoes before complaining.

Clayton

-- Have You Seen This? --
#147706 - 07/15/08 06:55 PM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Clayton]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 149
Catius Offline
member
Catius  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 149
Long Island, NY
Quote
Of course those who just work for a check have no clue what it takes to run a business. So now we'll have to "stay home and watch TV" because of the "liability".

Walk in the shoes before complaining.


We're talking talking about the Statue Race here, not about a business. There's always waivers you can make people sign and if I remember well, we did so at the S/R.

But there is a point here...Liability becomes often times an excuse that kills a lot of new ideas. I don't think it was the main reason with the Statue Race, but it was definitely talked about. It goes back to the TYPE of sailors you get at the starting line (i.e. experience), not necessarily the quantity. What's riskier - 20 newbies sailing their dilapidated H16's or 100 experienced sailors on a bunch of Tigers and I20? If I was the insurer, I would know which one to pick.

Also - I worked for 14 years for corporations in Europe and the US, now run my own business. What I've seen is that the "liability" argument is very easily made in corporations...as an excuse to do nothing or to be able to say "I told you so...". It's definitely a valid concern, but it's also all too often raised by the "can't do" type of people.


Thomas Mystere 6.0
#147707 - 07/15/08 09:34 PM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Catius]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Annapolis, MD
Saftey can't be the major issue... Waves and Hobie 14's are allowed in the race!


crac.sailregattas.com
#147708 - 07/15/08 11:10 PM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Mark Schneider]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 110
RyanMcHale Offline
member
RyanMcHale  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 110
Northern California, USA
Hey Mark, come sail my 14 in good wind for awhile, you really have to pay attention. You'll be gratefull for a bigger boat. But what the heck, I love it, otherwise wouldn't have sailed it for 25 years!!!!

Ryan

Quote
Saftey can't be the major issue... Waves and Hobie 14's are allowed in the race!

Last edited by RyanMcHale; 07/15/08 11:11 PM.

Ryan McHale
Hobie 14 (battened jib)
#147709 - 07/16/08 12:34 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Catius]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
The ones we have to worry about are the local crazies

What do you mean by "crazies"?

#147710 - 07/16/08 06:01 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Mary]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 149
Catius Offline
member
Catius  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 149
Long Island, NY
Let's say people who come out on the race without an appreciation for the risks. Their boats may not have had any rigging changed in 10 years, they may have leaks, they have not thought about any spare parts, they don't bother listening to the safety briefing. There's not many, but they do exist and they have been known to show up for the Statue Race.

#147711 - 07/16/08 06:18 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Catius]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,879
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,879
Detroit, MI
I was there in 2006, doing my part to help meet the "Objective 100" goal. I double-stacked my Tiger with another Tiger from my fleet and we made the drive from Detroit.

Here's why I won't go back:
- The conditions were perfect in 2006; records were set (I finished third or fourth on actual time and I even beat the old record by a few minutes). Those conditions are unlikely to repeat for several years.

- The drive time / sail time ratio is silly. 24 hours of driving for 3 hours of sailing. Yeah, I know it was a record year, but still - I spent more time setting up / taking down the boat than I did sailing.

- The trophies sucked. For 2nd place on corrected time, I received a 2"x3" plaque that cost maybe $10. I'm not normally one to bitch about the trinkets, but those are not appropriate for an event that had 86 entries.

"Objective 100" was a great idea, but it's not sustainable. You became a victim of your own success.

#147712 - 07/16/08 08:10 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: mbounds]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,279
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,279
South Carolina
at least you got trophies...oh...did I say that outloud?

(I'm not talking about the Statue Race).


Jake Kohl
#147713 - 07/16/08 08:15 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Catius]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
Let's say people who come out on the race without an appreciation for the risks. Their boats may not have had any rigging changed in 10 years, they may have leaks, they have not thought about any spare parts, they don't bother listening to the safety briefing. There's not many, but they do exist and they have been known to show up for the Statue Race.

Okay, so those are the people you call crazies? You are also saying that these are "local" crazies, so I assume that means they are members of Sandy Hook Bay Catamaran Club. And this is their own club's race. So I would assume that the "local crazies" are going to want to participate in their club's Statue of Liberty Race. So how do you tell them they cannot participate in their own club's race that they are hosting?

#147714 - 07/16/08 08:19 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Mary]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
Robi Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Robi  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Talk about milking the cow.

#147715 - 07/16/08 08:23 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: mbounds]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Quote
- The drive time / sail time ratio is silly. 24 hours of driving for 3 hours of sailing. Yeah, I know it was a record year, but still - I spent more time setting up / taking down the boat than I did sailing.


- The trophies sucked. For 2nd place on corrected time, I received a 2"x3" plaque that cost maybe $10. I'm not normally one to bitch about the trinkets, but those are not appropriate for an event that had 86 entries.


You should have gone this year if the "ratio" is important to you. We drove 750 miles and spent 7.5 hours in the race. BTW, we came a day early and sailed to Coney Island and back the day before. Plan to sail more than just the race and the "ratio" gets much better.

Un-beknownst to us, Northern NJ is very charming and has lots of neat things to see. Dashing in and out you miss much...at any regatta destination.

The trophies were great this year. Of course if you want a really nice one you have to do better than 2nd!


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
#147716 - 07/16/08 08:32 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Robi]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,904
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,904
Clermont, FL, USA
Oh no, Mary is not milking the cow. Your buddy in the petroleum thread is milking the cow my friend.

Catius, Sandy Hook obviously isn't the right fit for this event. Why not go independent or find a club/venue that has similar goals.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#147717 - 07/16/08 08:34 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Robi]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
Talk about milking the cow.

Don't know what you mean, but this conversation is about a very serious problem, and one that you, as a member of the Coast Guard, take very seriously, as well.

#147718 - 07/16/08 08:44 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Mary]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,904
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,904
Clermont, FL, USA
Milking the cow can be used to describe attaining the absolute most from any given situation.

Sometimes called 'milking the cash cow', 'milking the cow' can also be applied to any franchises which continue to drain the public of as much cash as possible and attempt to attach the brand name to absolutely everything, be it cereal, video games, car adverts, tshirts, bedsheets, plush toys, action figures, computer accessories or anything else that would be seemingly unrelated.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#147719 - 07/16/08 08:48 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: David Ingram]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Thanks, Dave.

#147720 - 07/16/08 09:23 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Mugrace72]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,879
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,879
Detroit, MI
Quote
Quote
- The drive time / sail time ratio is silly. 24 hours of driving for 3 hours of sailing. Yeah, I know it was a record year, but still - I spent more time setting up / taking down the boat than I did sailing.


- The trophies sucked. For 2nd place on corrected time, I received a 2"x3" plaque that cost maybe $10. I'm not normally one to bitch about the trinkets, but those are not appropriate for an event that had 86 entries.


You should have gone this year if the "ratio" is important to you. We drove 750 miles and spent 7.5 hours in the race. BTW, we came a day early and sailed to Coney Island and back the day before. Plan to sail more than just the race and the "ratio" gets much better.

Un-beknownst to us, Northern NJ is very charming and has lots of neat things to see. Dashing in and out you miss much...at any regatta destination.

The trophies were great this year. Of course if you want a really nice one you have to do better than 2nd!


I travel to a lot of regattas - 750 miles is not out of the question for me on a weekend (Hobie MWE was over 1000 miles - left on Thurs, back to work on Monday). Because I do a lot of regattas, vacation time is at a premium (which is why I do stupid stuff like drive to FL for a weekend).

For the 2006 Statue Race, we drove to the event (650 miles) on Saturday, July 1 and set up the boats, raced on Sunday and packed up the boats, took the ferry over and toured NYC on Monday and drove home on Tuesday, July 4. I didn't use a single day of vacation to do the event, which was important to me.

Yeah, the first place trophy is nice, but it's a perpetual one that you don't get to keep. I hold the record for the fastest time of a boat under 20', but I got nothin' to show for it.

#147721 - 07/16/08 09:30 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: mbounds]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,904
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,904
Clermont, FL, USA
If you're not first you're last - Ricky Bobby


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#147722 - 07/16/08 10:12 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: mbounds]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
<<<<Yeah, the first place trophy is nice, but it's a perpetual one that you don't get to keep.>>>>>

Yes, but it has your name on it when you give it back.




<<<< I hold the record for the fastest time of a boat under 20', but I got nothin' to show for it. >>>>

You have the memory don't you? And you also have a forum so you can bring it up now and then. Trophies are nice but they gather dust and have to be polished.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
#147723 - 07/16/08 10:32 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Mary]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 149
Catius Offline
member
Catius  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 149
Long Island, NY
Quote
Okay, so those are the people you call crazies? You are also saying that these are "local" crazies, so I assume that means they are members of Sandy Hook Bay Catamaran Club. And this is their own club's race. So I would assume that the "local crazies" are going to want to participate in their club's Statue of Liberty Race. So how do you tell them they cannot participate in their own club's race that they are hosting?


Whatever we want to call them. If you take offense at the term "crazies" (which was intended with humor), call them something else...
You don't want to get into forbidding people to enter the race (unless there's blatant safety reasons of course), but would clear and explicit requirements about required experience and condition of the boat on the race notice and during safety briefing not work you think? Or you think people will still ignore? The point is to get participants to take safety very seriously and to make'm assess their own skills / equipment against those requirements...

You can debate this of course, you can say that people will still start, you can say that this was already done in the past (but not to the degree I am talking about)...this is all hypothetical because SHBCC doesn't care about growing the race anyways.


Thomas Mystere 6.0
#147724 - 07/16/08 10:43 AM Re: Statue of Liberty Race [Re: Catius]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 149
Catius Offline
member
Catius  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 149
Long Island, NY
Ok - I was going to look at the 2008 Notice of Race on the shbcc website and this is what I found (check under "Statue Race"):

http://www.fleet250.org/

Not sure where the awesome 2006 website content went.


Thomas Mystere 6.0
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