What you all forget in this discusion is that there are many sailors who are not interested in racing. And if you are looking for a light weight singlehander and you don't want to buy a used A-cat, this A-cat could be the answer. It is cheap, still runs circle around most of the other boats and, if you need a new sail after some years, you can buy a good used sail from the A-cat top sailors for a very reasonable price. Such a sail is probably still better than most of the new (stock) sails of other single handers...
80 or 90kg is a dream to move around the beach and to rigthen after capsize, if you are alone. However outside of Europe people will not profit from it, due to exchange rates.

Cheers,

Klaus

It had its introduction at the Moth Worlds, unfortunately they broke it on the first sail.
Is it me or do the wings on the FX look wider than on the regular Bladerider?

Pictures: http://www.thedailysail.com/ism/articles...amp;email=tdsde

Didn't they go out with 40kt. gusts though?

edit: Found article on the SA homepage. About half way down, titled "Glass Jaws"

I agree in full with Klaus.
The V1 Basic is purposely targeted for the recreational sailor who, from time to time, "dares" to enter a regatta at his sailing club or in the nearby with a boat that remains,notwithstanding its weight, a PURE racing machine.
Therefore it cannot be confused with any of the old generation 200 lbs A cats since from all point of view, mast, sail, foils, hull shape etc, but the weight, it is a state of the art racing design.
I am sure that on handicap, if rated at 70.5, it can win whatever race hands down.

RE Ratings--There are already 3 variations and 3 DPNs officially posted:
A-cat (DPN 64.5), A-cat category 2 (200 pounds, DPN 70.5), Catnip (wooden DPN 74.5)

so...to clarify, if a new, category 2, boat were built, in order to measure in, it would need to meet all other existing A class rules, except Rule 9? and insert 90.1kg there, in lieu of 75kg?

Except that rule 9 is a miminum...so technically, at 90.1kg ,it's still an a-cat.

The 200lb weight figure is in the portsmouth ratings put there as an accommodation to older generation a-cats that traditionally weighed around 200lbs (mostly of wood construction). It is not a special a-cat class...technically all those 200lb boats are still a-cats and can be raced at any a-cat event.

These are two different issues:

1) What is an A-cat?

2) how to handle the handicap rating for open class portsmouth ratings.

Thank you, that's exactly what I thought. You (recreational sailor/weekend warrior) show up with a new, 90.1kg boat and try to get the 70.5 rating, may be a tall task.

No, I think the catagory 2 designation is for the USPN system only and it is intended for the purpose of handicap racing only. This is my point ... you have ONE A Class organization which operates with one set of class rules.

Remember.. USPN's goal is to issue ratings for classes of boats...By USPN tagging a boat as a Cat 2 A class, those owners can register and race the boat in portsmouth easily... otherwise... it's a debate... what rating should we use. An actual class organization may or may not exist ... hell in the case of the CFR 20... The class consists of one boat. hmmm.

Other examples would be in the F18 class.
The Dart Hawk and the Nacra inter 18 were listed in the USPN yardstick with slower PN numbers then the F18 class... yet both were founding boats in the F18 rule. ditto for the Taipan 4.9 w spin and the F16 rating.

USPN follows the public, it does not sanction or control class (or ersatz class rules).

Why a tall task... The new boat is an A class that weighs in at 200 lbs. It fits the USPN catagory to a T!

Bim is using the A class Volunteer organization and the A class rule to make a buck by misrepresenting their new model.

IMO, it's not really a class boat...

I argue it does not contribute to the class mission... Bim argues that it does (entry boat to the class).

Hobie has done this kind of thing repeatedly with their trademark. H17 and Hobie 17 sport. Hobie 18, H18M, TheMightyHobie18 SX Hobie 14, H14 turbo. Does anyone think its been a good thing for the racing class of Hobie 17 or Hobie 18?

I think it's a bit slimey.

I would hope that this is just a relfection of your personality due to the internet and the way you come off.

Your attitude as it reads here) is exactly why a lot of people I know have shyed away from catamarans and why I would never get into this type of boat now if I happened to be a new guy looking to get involved and reading this forum.

I stick by my earlier comments. A lot of people used to attend events and it was as much or more social than anything else. Bring your boat and come sail and party. There were races and some serious racers but that was only part of the "event" Now those few who still come out are for the most part relatively serious racers. There are a lot of performance spin boats - 2 up guy machines that all alone are very intimidating for the new guy. Also with 2 up guy crews, there are less women and parties with no women are not very attractive to me. Put all this together and now I am going to get crap from somebody becuase my 50 lb overweight boat is not "classed". I like sailing it and it was priced right and fit my needs --- forget racing I will just pleasure sail, thanks.

Bim has had their AJ and now this small revision. They have a group interested in this particualr configuration. Theirs and all manufacturers responsability is to stay in business to support the boats they have sold. Very few people race as a percentage so you do the math.

Personally I think that a given build adheres to a specific class that it should adhere to that class rating. Ergo a Taipan 4.9 with spi must sail of the F16 rating, the BIM A-cat El-Cheapo races off the A-cat rating and any F18 foundation boat races of the current F18 rating.

Otherwise any of these boats should form their own SEPERATE class under a different namen and acquire their own seperate rating.

Wouter

Wasn't the Bim2000 a 75Kg 10K Euro (7.5K USD at the time) boat with carbon mast and fiberglass hulls?

I am not sure what is new with this V1 basic, last year Bimmare had several complete XJs made from fiberglass in their factory. I don't see the point. If I want cheaper, 10K Euro (14+K USD) buys an all carbon A-cat in great condition. If I want more rhobust ultralight then carbon or carbon/kevlar is worth the premium over fiberglass.

BTW, I saw a V1 at a regatta 2 weeks ago for the first time. It looks better in person than in pictures. But I still don't know why you would pay the same money for an unproven V1 when you could get a proven A3 or Flyer for the same money. Bim has invested heavily in their factory. Their new masts should be much better value for money than Fiberform. Their product center should be able to win a price war if they start one-- for sure price was a major reason for the phenominal success of the Bim2000. Question is, given the bad news of no olympic cat, lots of competitive used boats available, and general economic pessimism in the countries where the buyers live... is there enough new buyers to may a price war pay? I suspect there is not, so I expect prices to stay high and volumes to stay low for a while. Perhaps the A-cat worlds in 2010 in Northern Italy will encourage Bim to build a fleet of charter boats like they did for the 2000 worlds?

While I agree with that, the sad reality is that with the performance and statistic driven USDPN handicap system, if the boats are slower around the course (and they show up in numbers), the new boat will have the effect of increasing the rating of the existing fleet of a-cats. In a fleet of apples, it would be an orange and the handicap system would need to make an accommodation for it. Otherwise, the current fleet of 165 lb a-cat ratings would go up making it unfair for anyone that races against them in the future.

Only if it is the sole A cat at the event. As I understand it, they only look at the fastest boat in its class for computing PNs.

Hi Wouter

The fundamental issue is the definition of a Class.
Is a Class an organization of sailors who race under a set of equipment rules? OR is a Class a boat configuration.

For the purpose of the USPN, Class is essentially defined as a boat configuration and the convience of labeling for scorekeeping purposes causes new classes to magically appear. In Dart Hawk case... they drop the F18 part of their name and become a seperate Dart Hawk class... not the Dart Hawk F18. Again, this is an inherent property of USPN and now the rating can slide or become more accurate depending on your view of the process and the data. Currently, the Dart Hawk is back to being rated as an F18.

Most of the time these boats disapear from the racing scene and are not raced frequently and so it is usually not much of a problem creating an unfair playing field.

USPN follows the public's definition of a boat class ... It does not control or rigorously define a class or rules for a class for the purpose of the yardstick. The table of classes changes a lot over time. As far as I know, there is no repository of Class Rules, at most Brian Karr tabulated class crew weights for several classes that he could find a few years ago and this table is published. You don't need class rules to get listed in the yardstick


How does Texel or ISAF handle these these kinds of issues.
Do they issue rating certificates to any configuration that shows up for a measurement and then add it to the list? Do you need a minimum number of boats to be measured to get a rating line in ISAF or Texel?

John-
What about your idea of an "A" cat "kit"- so the potential "A" cat sailor can provide the labor (obviously a major part of the cost) him/herself and still get a competitive "A" at a very reasonable price? You could even have a full-on CF "kit" vs an "economy" AL kit (with AL beams/crossbars/mast)- if somebody later wanted they could upgrade to CF-

Kirt

The strip plank method utilized in building the LR2 hulls lends itself to the home builder. A "kit" could be put together with precut mold frames and hull nesting jigs for less than $1000. My total material bill for a carbon/epoxy boat was $8,600. And that could be reduced with alloy beams, glass and polyester. In my opinion the material savings would be minimal, especially when you spend so many hours building the boat.

Quote: >Wasn't the Bim2000 a 75Kg 10K Euro (7.5K USD at the time) boat with carbon mast and fiberglass hulls?... for sure price was a major reason for the phenominal success... Perhaps the A-cat worlds in 2010 in Northern Italy will encourage Bim to build a fleet of charter boats like they did for the 2000 worlds?>

Yes- A number of these Bim2000s came to the US cheap. One that came to North Florida was enthusiastically trainer-sailed by 5 newbies including me, and all 5 ultimately bought newer designs. (Unfortunately the importation was fraught with problems.) javascript:void(0)

Dave,

Certainly you're not categorizing yourself as a "newbie"!?