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#149207 - 07/09/08 11:37 PM Class control.  

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At what stage should the F12 class become self controlling with boat owners only having a vote as to rules and policy?

Class should run its when.....
single choice
10 Boats have been lauched
23%, 3 Votes
20 boats have been lauched
8%, 1 Votes
boats from 3 different designs have been launched
38%, 5 Votes
Boats from 5 different designs have been lauched
0%, 0 Votes
other (please specify)
31%, 4 Votes
Total Votes: 13
Voting on this poll ends: 07/16/08 11:36 PM
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#149208 - 07/10/08 12:24 AM Re: Class control. [Re: ]  
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Wilhelmshaven, Niedersachsen, ...
additional 3 designs with min. 5 boats each.

Best Regards, Michael


hullaballo
#149209 - 07/10/08 01:38 AM Re: Class control. [Re: luckystrike118]  

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Not a bad idea. So we'd be looking at 4 designs each with 5 boats, 20 boats, however the Vudu and DS12 are on the ground running so we're possibilty talking about 30-40 boat before the criteria is met. Is this too long?

#149210 - 07/11/08 05:03 PM Re: Class control. [Re: ]  
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I agree with luky's proposal


Inter 17 n64
#149211 - 07/11/08 07:10 PM Re: Class control. [Re: ]  
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or ...after at least one race with more than two designs takes place.


Luiz
#149212 - 07/11/08 09:43 PM Re: Class control. [Re: Luiz]  

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or ...after at least one race with more than two designs takes place.


If Gato builds another boat that may actually be too soon

#149213 - 07/12/08 12:47 AM Re: Class control. [Re: ]  

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Can people please leave some sort of comment when they vote (even if its just a note to say you've voted) so we have an idea who has contributed.

#149214 - 07/12/08 02:46 AM Re: Class control. [Re: ]  
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Wouter Offline
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I have voted and I believe that the class should be allowed to grow into an viable class in its own time. It is hard to predict when the class will be ready to stand on its own feet. I remember it took over 4 years for the F16 class to grow sufficiently strong and cohesive before I could build back the all important chairman role.

A very small pool of owners is not someting you want to give all class control too. You'll need a rather large number of world wide distributed owners to compensate/cancel for the unavoidable nuttcases and to avoid a voting pool that is overly conservative. Democratic systems only work when you have more then 1 sufficiently powerful voting block and hence a balance of power that forces discussion, negociation and compromise. Otherwise will just derail to a aristocracy under a new name.

Based on past experiences I feel that during the start up fase we need a powerful single figure that have enough sense of the common good to steer the class into the right direction till the numbers, structure and class spirit are sufficiently developped to take over. This can indeed last for several years. This does not however mean that this chairman is not obliged to discuss and measure the mood on everything with nearly everyone. Basically, what he will be doing is finding and building a wide concensus among the associated parties and class members before reaching and rolling out any decisions. In that sense it is not much different from a full democratic system. The owners and parties are still heard and influence the decisions heavily. It is just that the this powerful person has enough control and influence to effectively steer the project, react quickly to challenges and has enough security and power to advance initially unpopular decisions that are yet much needed for the later common good.

In my experience a full democratic system is very ill equipped to lead a emerging project or to efectively steer a project that faces many challenges and required quick and decisive steerage. Afterall democracy in neither quick nor decisive. Look at long it has taken us to achieve concensus on the basic F12 specs despote the fact that the values we are about to vote in were first proposed back januari 2007 and failed the win concensus in the first 3 tries ! I don't think a new class can affort to handle the future challenges in such a way.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#149215 - 07/12/08 04:28 AM Re: Class control. [Re: Wouter]  
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what Wouter said, at a guess somewhere near 100+ boats

#149216 - 07/12/08 04:55 AM Re: Class control. [Re: Questioner]  
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I've voted but I acknowlege that different countries need different specs. I can see that Wouter needs the extra weight to build his metal frame so thats probably where he needs the class. Personally I would be embarrased to show people a 12ft modern cat that weighs 60kg and I wouldn't consider building one so what about having different classes of F12 with a handicap. I will refer to mine as a Light Weight F12 (this came to me the other day when I sold my light weight sharpie). Wouter could refer to his as the F12 Technical or whatever label suits.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
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#149217 - 07/12/08 05:50 AM Re: Class control. [Re: JeffS]  
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With respect to my design I can say the following.

If indeed Gato build his 4mm ply + glassed over hulled platform at 52 kg including a 6 kg mast then my basic design can be build for about 55 kg, both ready to sail. That is using the same platform but with a 6.5 kg unstayed mast, 1.5 kg support tubes and 1 kg of additional reinforcments in the hulls (an extra bulkhead and some local thickening of the skin near the load points.

Note how a set of 4 mm stainless steel stays are already 1 kg in total for a F12. My unstayed setup doesn't really have a weight problem. Although I would like enough volume/size in the hulls to carry a 90 kg adult with camping gear or two kids sailing together, I also perfer to use larger beams as to avoid the need for a dolphinstriker in order to reduce (labour) cost further and make transport easier (slide and lay-up the boat up on its two beam over two planks fitted to any trailer or roofrack)

So personally for my design I wouldn't mind 55 kg or even 50 kg as I believe 5 kg difference in weight is impossible to note on the water. However, I do envision that any cheap commercial production of F12's will have needs that may wel conflict with such a low ready to sail weight. I envision that for succes a la laser radial or optimist we need such commercial builders and still keep the retail price of a F12 below 4000 bucks. That doesn't leave much margin for labour costs or high quality laminate work.

So I'm arguing for a rather "high" ready to sail weight not to favour my own design but rather for the future growth of the class and indeed to have an optimal chance in achieving the ultimate goals set for this new class. If it were only up to myself and my own use then I would vote 50 kg in within a bloody second. I'm never going to be a competitive sailor in this class at 90 kg anyway !

I wanted to have this be clear.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 07/12/08 05:58 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#149218 - 07/14/08 01:24 AM Re: Class control. [Re: Wouter]  
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I have voted, and when we get 3 different designs sailing we will have a good idea where to stand. In my opinion there is no need to make the boats for the competition heavier than those sailing for fun. As far I have seen here there will be a lot more of theese boats sailing for fun (thet are nice toys) than paricipating in competition. If there is one thing that I like about the F12 is the low weight!

#149219 - 07/14/08 01:45 AM Re: Class control. [Re: Gato]  
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I used dynema (spectran) for all standing rigging exept the dimondwires, and the next spar will do without them, easier to cartop. I have also carried the DS12 on a trailer in one piece uppside down.

#149220 - 07/15/08 07:07 PM Re: Class control. [Re: ]  
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Quote
Quote
or ...after at least one race with more than two designs takes place.


If Gato builds another boat that may actually be too soon


Correct. Maybe:

'After at least X (30?) boats are built and races with more than Y (2?) different designs take place in Z (3?) different countries.'


Luiz
#149221 - 07/16/08 12:37 AM Re: Class control. [Re: Luiz]  
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I don't see why the boats has to race bfore we can agree on the rules. When we have 3 designs built we already know where we stand, and from those it should be possible to calculate what the weight of those designes and similar would be when put in serial production.

#149222 - 07/18/08 09:07 AM Re: Class control. [Re: Gato]  
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Luiz Offline
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Quote
I don't see why the boats has to race bfore we can agree on the rules.

Absolutely. The rules can be agreed upon at any time.
This thread's decision, however, is about...

Quote
At what stage should the F12 class become self controlling with boat owners only having a vote as to rules and policy?


We are trying to figure out the best timing for this group to step out and let the boat owners (or parents) take control.

After re-thinking about it, I really don't care who is at the helm provided that the right course is kept. I feel that the priority is to steer towards the agreed goals. If we carve anything in stone, it should be the goals.

We can't predict the best moment to hand control. It could be very soon, if racing, ISAF recognition and other orgarnized activities become a priority from the begining; but it could take years, if the owners are not interested in racing or other organized class activities. It will depend on the interests and commitment of the boat owners.

If we succeed fostering the development of the class towards the agreed goals, the owners will take control when they are strong enough and want to do that, regardless our previous decisions. If we can't enforce it, why should we decide about it?

Maybe we should agree that whenever control is handed to the owners, the designers of F12s that are built until that time will become permanent members of a supervision/technical council with veto powers over decisions regarding the boat's geometry and materials. The class should have the power to add to the councill other qualified designers or builders that become relevant for the class due to their work.

This would smooth the transition process whenever it happens. It would also help maintain the course towards the agreed goals after control is handed.

In any case, the way to enforce this type of idea is to make the class official and write its by-laws or statutes. Then the question becomes: "When is the right moment to write the by-laws?" I guess it is still early. What do you all think?


Luiz
#149223 - 07/19/08 12:49 AM Re: Class control. [Re: Luiz]  
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One thing that I think it could be good to define already at this stage is who are WE!

#149224 - 07/19/08 03:13 AM Re: Class control. [Re: Luiz]  
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So, here a small suggestion.
The class control should shift to the following when the number exeedes 10.

Designers who have for free provided a design of a F12 for others and have at least one cat built out of this design.

Builders who have built at least one boat ready to sail.

Owners of a redy to sail F12 cat

Each person has one wote.

When the number exeedes 49 this group should within themselves for a counsil to take control of the class.

Last edited by Gato; 07/19/08 03:14 AM.
#149225 - 07/19/08 04:30 AM Re: Class control. [Re: Gato]  
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Luiz Offline
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Quote

The class control should shift to the following when the number exeedes 10.

Designers who have for free provided a design of a F12 for others and have at least one cat built out of this design.

Builders who have built at least one boat ready to sail.

Owners of a redy to sail F12 cat

Each person has one wote.

When the number exeedes 49 this group should within themselves for a counsil to take control of the class.


Makes sense. I would only add a way out:

When the first ten eligible members exist, they may choose to vote a new minimal number of members, effectively postponing the control shift.

Luiz


Luiz

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