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#149998 - 10/08/08 05:34 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: JeffS]  
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Reword for Rule 7

7. Unballasted retractable seat or trapeze shall be allowed for the forward hand when two-up or adult skippers when solo only. Solo junior (under 13) skippers cannot use a trapeze for F12 competition.

I think this covers most ppls point of view, the wording needs some work though. The risk of a solo junior getting into trouble is reduced, 2-up juniors can have a single trapeze for fun and adults can do whatever they want. The age can be moved around if desired.

Another idea is that juniors (under 13 or similar) must race 2-up. Again this is a safety related issue.

Sorry for bringing up so many new ideas, most of them are being stolen from the Sabot, an Australian junior class.

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#149999 - 10/08/08 05:46 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: JeffS]  
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Rewording of Rule 17

17. Hydrofoils are not permitted. Atleast one hull shall be in the water while sailing. To this end, centreboards and rudders are to be essentially straight with a maximum camber (top to bottom) of no more than 25mm. They are to be essentially vertical with the distance between the bottom of the boards, when both are deployed, within 100mm of the distance between the top of the boards in the same position.

Diagrams required.

A bit wordy but should avoid any confusion.

#150000 - 10/08/08 07:16 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: ncik]  
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... for junior boats I really like the idea of being able to drop the sails with the boat and mast upright for safety reasons. Should shackled or pocket luff sails be allowed with this consideration. Having sailed a pocket luffed moth and knowing how difficult it is to be rescued with the mast still up, I am very tempted to have a clause to cover this.


Makes sense to me. Maybe: "pocket luffs are allowed if the sail can be lowered at sea without removing the mast."

I'm against the trapeze. It makes unstayed rigs slow (not competitive), the boat becomes more expensive, everything bcomes more complex and difficult, kids can get tangled...

For the standard F12 class KISS is better. Adults may add a trapeze, jib, kite, hydrofoils and sail just for fun.


Luiz
#150001 - 10/08/08 07:56 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: ncik]  
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Thats what I needed, the proper wording for each point. I don't think we can make lowering the sail at sea mandatory because it rules out the sleeved sail unstayed versions already planned.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
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Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#150002 - 10/08/08 08:20 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: JeffS]  
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I don't have a problem with unstayed pocket luff rigs, only stayed pocket luff rigs like moths and mainsails that can't be dropped with the boat upright. So long as the kid or a rescuer can drop the sail easily.

Only other consideration with unstayed rigs is that there is a device to keep the rig in the socket during capsizes. A simple rope and sister clip arrangement would be enough. Not sure if this should be in the rules, maybe a separate clause is needed to cover these safety issues.

Safety - Sails must be able to be dropped easily in all conditions while on the water, mast must be attached to the boat, etc.

Just a little history for those wondering where this stuff is coming from, I used to umpire junior teams racing and being able to drop the sails in ALL conditions while on the water was a necessity.

#150003 - 10/08/08 08:32 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Luiz]  
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That's a valid point, allowing trapezes and unstayed rigs conflict with each other. Sure you can put a trapeze on the unstayed rig but it would be nasty or require a very big stiff mast.

Along with this is that installing pocket luffs and trapeze connections is a hassle from a rigging point of view. From a rescue point of view I don't want to contemplate pulling the main down on a stayed pocket luff rig with trapeze wires on the water in 25 knots and some chop.

Sure it can be done and performance may be increased slightly, but is it worth it at the cost of some basic safety measures?

#150004 - 10/08/08 08:35 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: ncik]  
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We can exclude traps and seats unless someone else pipes up in support of them.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#150005 - 10/08/08 08:59 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: JeffS]  

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RG my understanding is that the kiwis intend on fitting them. Is this the case?

#150006 - 10/09/08 12:11 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: ]  
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Traps and seats were not intended from the start, so we can exclude them.
The pocket luff sail was I think intended for the unstayed rig where the sail can windwane can we keep it at that

#150007 - 10/09/08 12:48 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Gato]  
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As the sailmakers here seem reluctant to make pocket luff sails, Billy has already decided to change to a sail with a boltrope and Im not hung up on having a pocket luff sail.
Sent out an email to those who have paid for designs asking if they were happy with this and all who have replied with the exception of the Chinese will go with it. While I wouldn't like to lose the Chinese boats, I think we should just outlaw the pocket luff on a stayed rig in the interests of safety. Traps I see no reason to outlaw, and all the kids I've talked to want it, period.
cheers
RG

#150008 - 10/09/08 03:36 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: RetiredGeek]  
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So, pocket luff ok on unstayed rigs.
Shall we have traps from the start or later, I have the feeling they will come soner or later anyway.

#150009 - 10/09/08 05:26 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Gato]  
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I have no problem with traps for the older kids or for the crew in 2-up mode. Although it practically rules out unstayed masts.

#150010 - 10/09/08 06:47 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: ncik]  
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The traps will not make this cat any faster . It can be sailed in almost all conditions without them even by a child of 35kg with the 7m2 sail.

#150011 - 10/09/08 10:29 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Gato]  
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The traps will not make this cat any faster . It can be sailed in almost all conditions without them even by a child of 35kg with the 7m2 sail.


This is good to know.

Note that if the F12 racing rules exclude the trapeze, it does not mean that one can't be fitted on some boats for fun or club racing (for instance). We have our own special local rules here for club racing. This also covers a jib, kite, hydrofoils and any other innovation.

I just think it is prudent to keep the INITIAL F12 configuration as simple and cheap as possible.

Home builders will certainly try modifications of all types. If a given modification becomes popular, the class can certainly add it to the class rules later.

By the way: I will probably install a trapeze, kite and hydrofoils on my daughter's boat just for fun...

Still, for the class I consider more prudent to adopt the simplest and cheapest configuration possible to foster growth.

When my daughter decides to compete, all she has to do is revert to the basic configuration. No big deal.



Luiz
#150012 - 10/09/08 12:06 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Luiz]  
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I agree with Luiz. We can always make a F12HP for the older kids (dads) later.

#150013 - 10/09/08 05:26 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Gato]  
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I agree.

#150014 - 10/09/08 08:06 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: ncik]  

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#150015 - 10/09/08 11:38 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: ]  
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LOL....already designed mine, will post some pics later
cheers
RG

#150016 - 10/10/08 01:43 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: RetiredGeek]  
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It would maybe be good to keep those pics as a teaser and only show them when we have finished the draft for the rules... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

#150017 - 10/10/08 02:17 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: RetiredGeek]  
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I was going to keep my trap shut until I actually got mine at least to the hull built stage. But I'm with RG and some others on this.

One of the main attractions to this class is that it has to be heaps of fun. In my own opinion, to exclude the traps, would be taking away a fair chunk of fun.

I realise its been said that they could possibly be added later, but do you really want to stuff around with it later? If your design includes them, have them, if it doesn't, don't. Banning them or restricting them at this stage, when designers or builders have already committed to their design, I think its too late for such a rule.

The ship has sailed, so to speak.


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
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