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#151803 - 08/07/08 12:01 AM sshhh  
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#151804 - 08/07/08 12:10 AM Re: sshhh [Re: ncik]  
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is that really as fat as it looks or is it just the perspective that makes it look that way ?

#151805 - 08/07/08 01:02 AM Re: sshhh [Re: RetiredGeek]  
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ncik Offline
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It is wider than the first iteration, but still wouldn't consider it fat. Designed for 120kg displacement.

#151806 - 08/07/08 05:57 AM Re: sshhh [Re: ncik]  
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RG, The parents are almost more interested than the kids in sailind the F12:s so a little bit wolume is not so bad... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

#151807 - 08/07/08 07:56 AM Re: sshhh [Re: Gato]  
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RG, The parents are almost more interested than the kids in sailind the F12:s so a little bit wolume is not so bad... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
and at 120, or even 125kg design displacement, doesn't this makes the F12 more marketable? May be sold also as an adult trainer or appealing for Mom/Dad to sneak a ride on when the kids aren't around.


John H16, H14
#151808 - 08/07/08 08:32 AM Re: sshhh [Re: _flatlander_]  
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

and at 120, or even 125kg design displacement, doesn't this makes the F12 more marketable? May be sold also as an adult trainer or appealing for Mom/Dad to sneak a ride on when the kids aren't around.



Didn't we realize this from the beginning ?

That we would have to design these boats to take also an adult and small kid (up to ten years old) or two kids simulatiniously; ergo at least 100 kg crew carrying ability for the F12 !

Combined with min boat weight this makes a minimal displacement of 150 kg ?

It is always better to sail a volumious boat light then sail a light displacement boat heavy.

Scarecrow, for what range of displacement is your DS12 designed ?

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 08/07/08 08:33 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#151809 - 08/07/08 09:03 AM Re: sshhh [Re: Wouter]  
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Didn't we realize this from the beginning ?

Yes we did, but that seems like a long time ago now, and I wanted to take the opportunity to reiterate. The latest designs seem, to me, more like scaled down A's and, at least by appearance, seem to have lost any bouyancy (compared to early conceptual drawings) but obviously I'm no designer.

I won the set of DS-12 plans (thanks again!) but have been reluctant to proceed with a build as yet due to my "perception" of a limited upper range of weight carrying capacity. Is was awaiting more reviews, so Wouter thanks for asking the question.

Quote
It is always better to sail a volumious boat light then sail a light displacement boat heavy.
here, here


John H16, H14
#151810 - 08/07/08 10:34 AM Re: sshhh [Re: _flatlander_]  
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I still think that we should design with the kids in mind, so a crew weight between 40 and 60kgs. If there is room for an easy boat for the adults, I think it should be wise to go up to 14 feet and design with the same idea cheap, light and simple.
For me it's those three things that makes the F12 interesting.
Btw. I'm starting to build the sshhh tomorow...
flathlander18, don't be a coward go ahead and build the DS12 it's a great boat and you don't risk a lot of money and we need boats out on the beaches

Last edited by Gato; 08/07/08 10:37 AM.
#151811 - 08/07/08 02:18 PM Re: sshhh [Re: ncik]  
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Quote
It is wider than the first iteration, but still wouldn't consider it fat. Designed for 120kg displacement.


thats less than I imagined, must be the perspective. The Vudu's DWL is set at 100 kg, but even at 150 kg it sits in less than 40mm.

#151812 - 08/07/08 03:28 PM Re: sshhh [Re: RetiredGeek]  
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The Vudu's DWL is set at 100 kg, but even at 150 kg it sits in less than 40mm.



Total weight or just crew weight ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#151813 - 08/07/08 03:33 PM Re: sshhh [Re: RetiredGeek]  

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The DS12 is at 115. When it was drawn we were talking about a min weight of 60 kg...

If you built it to 55kg that gives you 60kg "optimum" crew weight(heaps for a young teen or small women, although as RG mentions extra weight won't be that big a killer. The main issue with putting a larger weight on is weight placement will become critical when the crew weighs more than the boat.

#151814 - 08/07/08 05:21 PM Re: sshhh [Re: ]  
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The overall plan and profile views actually came out fairly close to the DS12 without any reverse engineering. It does have slightly less rocker which may be a result of the sectional "fullness" compared with the DS12.

I'm still designing/thinking of the F12 as a kids cat trainer class similar to the purpose of the Optimist. Adults can make their own fun. Every so often my local club holds "regattas" with adults in optis...it's a funny sight.

#151815 - 08/07/08 06:07 PM Re: sshhh [Re: ncik]  
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I agree that seeing adults on little boats is funny but they can take it serious too this adult is sailing an 11 ft marine ply, Arafura Cadet, designed 30 years ago, in heaps of wind and 2.3metre waves off Adelaide a month ago. Picture courtesy of Peter Muirhead's site.

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Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#151816 - 08/07/08 06:09 PM Re: sshhh [Re: JeffS]  
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and another photo this boat is lighter than the DS12 despite being built 20 years ago.
I was so impressed I've purchased 2 to use at the club.

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Last edited by JeffS; 08/07/08 06:10 PM.

Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#151817 - 08/07/08 07:18 PM Re: sshhh [Re: JeffS]  
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Which makes sense given the local fleet, kids will learn more sailing boat on boat then sailing an orphan, no matter how attractive the one off may be.

Your building a pair of F12s aren't you Jeff? AC rig would help get them on the water fast and you could compare the hull designs with the same rig.

Interesting stuff this F12, I have no use for one but still a great direction to go in for cat sailing.

Darryn
Mozzie
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#151818 - 08/07/08 08:32 PM Re: sshhh *DELETED* [Re: JeffS]  
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#151819 - 08/07/08 08:34 PM Re: sshhh [Re: Darryn]  
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I've also bought a couple of Arrows that I can mix and match with rigs, I think the Arrow rig would more suit the F12 and I will play with those rigs on the F12 hulls before I buy F12 sails. Once I build the F12's though my plan is to have 6 cats here. As soon as someone says they want to buy one to sail here I will let them buy it at what it cost me. But at least I can strike while the irons hot. I think lightweight F12's, with homebuilt carbon masts will be very practical boats for my kids and enable me to travel with 4 boats, but I think my enthusiasm for building a new class went with the extra weight.
On a good note I'm hoping to get to Lake Bonney for their September winter series with the 5.8, two AC's and an Arrow quad stacked, what a sight <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#151820 - 08/07/08 08:43 PM Re: sshhh [Re: ncik]  
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Arafura's are minimum 36kg with all fixed fittings.
Heres a link to their sight
http://www.arrowarafura.com/
The 14ft Arrow is minimum 50kg thats why I dont see the F12 minimum weight as planned to be a miracle of modern engineering.


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#151821 - 08/07/08 08:47 PM Re: sshhh [Re: JeffS]  
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ncik Offline
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What is the Arafuras rigged weight? I'd estimate a 15kg minimum for the rig which brings it up to approx. 50kg, for a boat that is a foot shorter and without centreboard cases.

Are the rudders and centreboard included in that minimum weight?

Not bagging the Arafura or Arrow, just trying to make sure apples are being compared to apples.

#151822 - 08/07/08 09:20 PM Re: sshhh [Re: ncik]  

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Jeff,

Don't forget that we've brought the minium weigh down in the newer draft rules and I suspect it will get even lower once the class is in the hands of the owners/builders. The arrow weighs the same as the DS12 total weight with all the gear removed.

Don't loose faith.

ps. I had word yesturday that your gear was at the anodisers. Almost there.

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