Seems like there was about 30 in the US as one point--where's they all go? Are there any active 18HT fleets?

Well,

#6 is now a Frankencat.

PM for Bill Vining's email as he probably has tracked most of them.

Jim.

They are still around. When the class cratered, most of the boats got sold at a discount. Some got sold to guys that dont race them, some are sitting waiting to be used again, some are unaccounted for. Most of them on the east coast, 1-NH, 3-CT, 2-NY, 2-RI, 1-PA,1-FL, Couple in VA. One is still in Chicago.

There are no active fleets.

Why do you ask?

The girls have picked them ev'ry one.

I have a jav2 that I purchased down in MD and now keep in Rochester NY

Send me a pm with your sail number and contact info.

We might have to get the band back together.

????

Where have all the flowers gone

...When will they ever learn, when will they evvvver learn?

It was a hippy-folk type war protest song a long time ago, I think. Oh but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

(from another hippy song)

Someone got some Dylan we can listen to? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The answer my friends, is blowing in the wind... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Jeremiah was a bullfrog...

I think I was at that concert. If it is the same one then not mentioned were Steppenwolf and Three Dog Night.

I keep #12 on Lake Coeur d' Alene in northern ID. It's kinda lonley there, mostly a few H16s for company. Heard an FX One arrived this fall but haven't seen it yet. I've got a couple more weeks til the season sadly ends here. Then I'll have to content myself with implementing more of Bill's tweaks. Love the boat!

Dave

#5 and one more (can't remember the number) near Pensaola.. mast up, same place on the water too!

There are/were more than 50 Javelin 2 F18HT in the US.
The first was shipped in January 200l to race the Tradewind Regatta. The latest 24 in early 2003 to compete in the Worrell 1000. The others in between

This was claimed often by one particular source (mostly you and W.F.) but the fraternaty of beach cat builders tell a different story. At one time, it was claimed also that 50 Jav's 16 were on order/build when the Jav 16 had only been launched 2 months or so. The same source said that many were going to the USA and make F16 life very difficlt. Even back then we discarded that claim as being given by a lunatic.

I dare say on record right here that I don't believe for one second that there are 50 F18HT's in north America (USA, Canada and Mexico). I have never found the proof for that, builders deny it and in race results we only seen about 10 to 15 boats appear (all together only 2 times). I put the real number of imported boats much closer to 25. A good number of them (Alter cup boats) remained unsold in W.F. garden for very long times.

It was all just one big hype much like the investment banks stock market is right now. Looked good on paper but the real presence was highly overleveraged. This allowed the class to vanish in a rediculously short timeframe after it hit a snag.

Wouter

Wouter,

if I buy you this book as a gift, will you read it?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Talk-Anyone-...0623&sr=8-1

Please dont drag the F16s into discussions like this. It only makes us look bad, and to no benefit for anybody.

Trust me or not in the US, Canada and Mexico there are (or there were) more than 50 Javelin 2.
I do know for sure of 3 boats which suffered major damages (ashore, sailing or travelling).
However I don't know if a few of them are still unsold in WF's garden.
For sure by the end of 2001 13 Javelin 2 were shipped to the US and at least the same number by the end of 2002.
Add the 24 shipped for the Worrell 1000 (if you remember the USD 5,000 registration fee include the rent of a new boat for the race)

The 24 boats never showed up for the W1000 in 2003, which would make it only 20-something 18HT's in North America.

The 40' container with the Alter Cup boats left Italy in December 2002. A second 40' container left in early February 2003.
While I am sure that the Alter Cup boats materialized (the race was regularly sailed) I do not know about the fate of the others
I hope this help to clarify the situation

Timbo,

Since you survived the 70's (I love that Geico commercial related to that... "Pow!"), how did you deal with all that polyester chaffing?

And did those gold chains get tangled in your chest hair dreadlocks?

I honestly don't know which is worse in terms of fashion disasters:
- Polyester 70's
- "Miami Vice" & penny loafers 80's
- Chino's 90's
- "Metro-sexual" 00's

The boats were not there for the W1000 in 2003, and the race was not held. I know that for a fact, I was one of the paid entries for the race that didn't happen. David and I did go on to race the T500 that year in it's place. The 2002 W1000 was the last W1000 held.

Wouter you are such a jackass, you have no idea of how many HT's there are in the US.

39 documented sail numbers and boat owners.

REGULAR MEMBER BROWNING GALE ANNAPOLIS MD USA-1
REGULAR MEMBER OLIVER W.F. VA BEACH VA USA-3
REGULAR MEMBER DIAMOND JAMIE COLUMBUS OH USA-4
REGULAR MEMBER NEWKIRK KIRK PENSACOLA FL USA-5
REGULAR MEMBER BROWN CHRIS LABONON PA USA-6
REGULAR MEMBER SMYTH RANDY FT WALTON BCH FL USA-7
REGULAR MEMBER COGAN PETER DARIEN CT USA-8
REGULAR MEMBER LYTLE BOB JACKSONVILLE FL USA-9
REGULAR MEMBER MARSHACK KEN FAIRVIEW OR USA-10
REGULAR MEMBER SNEED JASON DESTIN FL USA-11
REGULAR MEMBER CUNNINGHAM DAVID CHICAGO IL USA-12
REGULAR MEMBER STOOKEY HUNT PORTSMOUTH RI USA-14
REGULAR MEMBER PICHE STEVE AUSTIN TX USA-15
REGULAR MEMBER LAMBERT BRIAN FT WALTON BCH FL USA-16
REGULAR MEMBER NOVAKOFF JIM HOUSTON TX USA-17
REGULAR MEMBER KIRBY DOUG ANNAPOLIS MD USA-18
REGULAR MEMBER BECKWITH TIFFANY SAN ANTONIO TX USA-20
REGULAR MEMBER LIVINGSTON KIRK HOUSTON TX USA-21
REGULAR MEMBER VINING BILL WALLINGFORD CT USA-22
REGULAR MEMBER COMUNALE AMANDA AKRON OH USA-23
REGULAR MEMBER KRANTZ MICHAEL FLOWERY BRANCH GA USA-24
REGULAR MEMBER STUART BERND OK USA-25
REGULAR MEMBER PETERS JERRY RICHMOND VA USA-26
REGULAR MEMBER SUNNUCKS WILLIAM UK USA-27
REGULAR MEMBER HERTZ DAVID EMPORIA VA USA-28
REGULAR MEMBER BOYLE STEPHEN CHARLOTTE NC USA-29
REGULAR MEMBER CONFIDENTIAL USA-30
REGULAR MEMBER SONNAKLAR JAY MIAMI FL USA-31
REGULAR MEMBER TEYSSIER CARL SAN DIEGO CA USA-32
REGULAR MEMBER MOORE FRANK PITTSBURG PA USA-33
REGULAR MEMBER GONZALAS TOMMY BRISTOL RI USA-34
REGULAR MEMBER CONFIDENTIAL (OWNED BY SAME PERSON AS USA-30) USA-35
REGULAR MEMBER JOHNSTONE PETER NEWPORT RI USA-45
REGULAR MEMBER MELLO DENNIS CT USA-70
REGULAR MEMBER BASNIGHT JIM CHESAPEAKE VA USA-71
REGULAR MEMBER PIGGIN HUGH FT LAUDERDALE FL USA-72
REGULAR MEMBER SINCLAIR JAMES NY NY USA-73

There are at least 39 boats in the US.

Hi Bill -

I don't mean to step into this mess and I don't have any sort of beef with the class. I think, though, that at least one of the owners on your list never actually got a boat, though he paid for one. Maybe the class list isn't 100% accurate? Not trying to stir up trouble - in fact, I'm not really sure why Wouter cares...

Thanks for pointing that out John. I didnt create that list, and I'm not sure exactly where it came from, it probably came from WF.

But the question that was being debated was "how many HT's are there in the US." I believe the number is at least 39, and its possible that its close the number that Catfan quoted.

YYYAAAAAAYYYYYYYY BILL!!!!!

Will Sunnucks owns a HT ?

Is that the same Will Sunnucks that is a UK sailor that came over for the Tybee 500, "chartered" a HT and afterwards said it was of the worst boats to do distance races on and would never do so again ?

Smyth never owned his own boat; I'm sure that he has his own sailnumber but the boat is probably now recycled into a new owner and new sailnumber.

That and other stuff.

It is just like Wall Street Finance, **** the books is not hard, coming up with concrete results to proof these numbers when the game is up is the hard part. Like the other poster says, there are some Worrell crews still waiting for the delivery of their boat.

Personally, I find it very strange that 50 sailors of the fame of Peter Cogan, Randy Smyth, Marshack, Lambert, Mike Krantz and Jay Sonneklar would (still) own a HT and be a class member for the last 5 years AND NEVER RACE IT. We do see them regulary on A-cats, F18's and I-20's though.

Come to think of it, for 50 boats sold in the USA we do see surprisingly little of them pop up in race results.

But hey ! Don't take my word for it. Believe what you want to believe.

Wouter

Bill,

Through my network of contacts which does indeed included many class organisors and builders alike I learned of legal dealings specifying the number of boats (of different make) delivered and of amounts of money left unpaid.

The number is much closer to 25 then 50. Sorry.

I won't specify or proof anything beyond this point as that will serve no purpose.

The main point of my postings was that one particular chain of sources is pretty unreliable. Hell, I was beating that message home as early as 2001 when the whole HT debacle began.

Many would like to think that I'm unreliable, wise people'll know better by now.

Wouter

Wouter.

The boat is/was William's.

Smyth DID own his own boat.

Here's a piccie of him racing it:


It now belongs to Tommy Granger.

I know of at least three, not counting the ex-Smyth boat, in the central Gulf (LA/MS/AL).

Voutah, do please let it go...

Tami's right, Wout. Let it go. There simply isn't any value in being right or wrong on this one, and the feelings (five years ago or not) are still raw. Ease up, pick another topic.

There is almost nobody racing the FXone, I know one dealer sold 10 of them last year, and the Hobie U.S. warehouse seems to be always out of them. Not the same thing, but alot of people buy boats to sail recreationally that don't really make that great of a rec boat.

Not that anyone cares, but Ken Marshack did buy a Bimare 18HT. I assembled it with him in Virginia Beach. He brought it home to Oregon, and sold it used to Jon Nilan from the Seattle area. He showed up to a few regattas and raced it as an A cat (Jon weighs approximately 350 pounds and we let him have fun with us). He hasn't raced it in the last two years that I know of. I saw him two weeks ago and he was close to selling the boat to somebody from the Seattle area.

Eric Marshack

REGULAR MEMBER LAMBERT BRIAN FT WALTON BCH FL USA-16

USA 16 owned now by Jon Alvord in NH. I don't race it, just use it for weekly sailing on a 3milex1/4 mile lake. Pretty pathetic use for it but it is so fun for one person in 15kt's!

No feelings,

I'm just conveying what I know.

But I have no interest in continueing a fight. Believe all you guys want. I for one have very serious doubts that a number close to 50 was ever shipped to the USA.

That will be all.

Wouter

Wouter, you dont know dick, you are making assumptions based on you were able to see in race results. That is the most arrogant and ridiculous thing you've ever said.

And you have no idea who owned what and when.

Since that list was compiled, most of those owners have sold there boats, and the new owners dont race them, and I've lost track of who owns them now.

Ok, Wouter, I will go slow for you here.

1. That list is OLD.
2. The boats have been RESOLD.
3. The boats didnt evaporate, they still exist and are most likely still in the USA.
4. The class hasnt had any official US business in the last 4 years.
5. You are still a jackass.

Obviously the names on that list are not current HT class members. I posted it as a point of reference on how many HT's there are (where) in the US at a point in time.

Stu told me he recently sold #25 to a Tulsa local who "didn't have a clue what he was getting in to" and reminisced of "the fastest boat he's ever sailed".

WF Oliver, after the Worrell thing, and growing the class he seemed to disappear. Does he still sail??

regarding the Granger (ex-Smyth) HT:

Tommy, ever the modification genius, has spent these last few years doing some kewl stuff to his HT. He's redone the beams and canted the hulls, and prolly done lots of other stuff that I can't remember offhand. He's also painted it a very kewl lime green.

You will likely be seeing it racing before too long - he and the Master FiberGenius Dub (Tommy's dad) have been creating an absolutely wild modified Stiletto which has distracted from the HT project.

If my boat is any indication, these two boats should just be the absolute [censored]!

The other three HT: Mark Ederer has one and races it rather occasionally, and there are two in a secret place in a secret state - if I told y'all where they were I'd have to kill all of y'all.

Wouter has him tied up in his basement.

I doubt the dutch have a lot of basements... being below sea level and all!

The elephant in the room is your total avoidance of the central issue... eg.. the total and rapid collapse of the class (people) ... Not the where is waldo game of who has an HT hidden in a garage.

How did the group of sailors who liked that boat disolve?

What happened?

Why?

Most of those guys are still racing cats in other classes!

Was the Mike Worrell Bimare decision to use the 18HT, a boat optimized for buoy racing, in a 1000 mile ocean race the major reason?

Why would that be... The boat is round the can racer. Why did the racing class disolve?

Bill,



Something wrong with your eyes. I wrote up "legal papers" as well and also builder comments (three guesses which builder that might be)

Wouter

That was a lame attempt at humor. I havent talked to WF, he stopped communicating with me and others after the Worrell fiasco. I've since heard he had health problems and financial problems, but thats second hand.



The title of the thread was "What happened to all the HTs?" and thats the question I thought we were discussing. I'm pretty direct and wasnt trying to avoid anything, so if you want my opinion, I can offer it.



I assume you mean "What happened to the class." It stopped operating because the people behind it made a decision to stop organizing it. WF was the original driving force behind the class, he was the importer, owned the website, owned the class trailer and the main promoter of the class. WF was the one who worked with Mike Worrell to get the HT selected for the Worrell 1000. WF convinced Bimare into sending 12 boats for the Alter Cup that were supposed to be later used for the Worrell.

There was a small group of HT owners that started stepping in to take on and take some of the responsibilites from WF about the time the Worrell was supposed to happen. We had regular meetings and started to organize the class, the rules and the racing schedule.

Once it became obvious to us that WF's dealings with Mike Worrell and Bimare had soured, and would cause too much of a distraction, we decided to stop our efforts to move the class forward. WF stopped communicating with us, he let the website lapse and that was the end of it.

Personally I do believe the HT is a great round the cans racer and was(is) a horrible choice for a distance race like the Worrell.

If the class had not gotten involved in the Worrell, it would have grown organically and probably been intact today. Most of the guys that bought the boat to train for the Worrell sold them shortly after it became obvious that the race wasnt going to happen.

Everyone keeps ending up on Hobie 16's again.

What was old is new again.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
http://hobiedivision2.com/Results/40results.pdf

Hey Wouter,

Good news, I've been getting emails all morning from HT owners that want to get together and race.

How many have you had Bill?

I always thought the 18HT was a cool boat. John_P built a Stealth 18HT that looked and sailed superb and I think he's still got the moulds. Do you think the 18HT Class could be revived? (As in class association, racing circuit, nationals, new boat sales etc.)

Surely there must be a market for a lightweight, medium-tech 18 footer?

Emails?

4 this morning.

The HT class could be easily restarted in the US. Its alive and well in Switerland.

If someone wants to organize a race or a series of races, I will help in getting it organized.

As far as getting new boats, you could call Bimare, they would probably make you one. The issue is that they are now going to be expensive as compared to a F18 because of the change in value of the dollar vs the euro and the cost increases in Carbon masts. I doubt anyone is going to sign up for a new HT given that most of the racing seems to be going to the F18 even if the cost isnt the issue.

"Do I think the class could be revived?" Yes, but I dont think it would be a good idea. HT's are going to be expensive as compared to F18's and F16's, so attracting new owners is going to be tough. Plus the racing crowd has all moved on, so getting racing mass back into the boat would be tough.

Do I think it would be fun to have reunion regatta for all the new owners? Yes, and I would help getting this organized.

Do I think the class should be re-started - no.

Bill

Ey Bill, you are doing anti-promotion. The 18HT is a cool concept. So what if the F18 is the class where the racing is today. That dont mean there will not be enough interest in the 18HT to keep a class going.

If the exchange rate is really bad, boats can be built in the US, even homebuilding is possible.

Would not cost much time and money to set up a website and e-mail group for those interested.

The problem is not the number of boats or other classes, it is getting the right persons to get things going and keep them going.

I always thought the 18HT would be an ideal single hander if it was widened to 10 or 12 feet; Kinda more modern 18Sq; add T foils as well and it would be a scream, up to a point and then it would get very scary in the big stuff!

I widened mine and single hand it all the time.

Its a blast.

The class is dead in the US as far as I'm concerned, so I wasnt trying to be pro or con, I was just giving my opinion.

One of the reasons I wouldnt want to revive the HT class is the rule set is too structured. The class needs to be way more open, more of a development class. When the HT rule set was being debated with the Europeans, I felt that we ended up with too many rules and got away from what I felt was a more open rule set mentality. We talked about being a open/development class, but ended up with too many rules. Wouter actually used that arguement against us a number of times. He had a point.

If the HT class were to be restarted in the US, the first change that I would advocate would be to skinny the rule set down and allow for at least an 8'6" width. Limiting the width based on the European road width limit never appealed to me. I widened my HT to 8'6" and its a better boat.

So, no I'm not trying to promote the HT class.

Okay, I started this thread, so let me be clear:

I was asking where the 18HT boats are now. (I have no questions or interest about the class collapse, Worrell, former boat owners, broken contracts, etc.) No red-blooded cat sailor can deny that these are intriguing boats.

It must be a rocket, wide and single handed!

I thought Wouter had his finger plugging up a dike somewhere........

I'd love to see a worldwide 18HT class. I accept it'll probably never happen. but it would be cool to at least have 'pockets' of 18HTs around the world. I'd imagine that if the same level of development went into them as goes into the current F18s we'd be seeing them up there boat-for-boat with the I20s etc.

Bill, if you're getting a genuine resurgence in interest in the class in the US and you all agree that the rules should be tweaked, why don't you do it? You could be on to the beginning of something great......

I think we've talked about this before; got any pictures?

Yes, we did.

Here.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;amp;page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

I need to go collect her from the beach, I will take more pictures before I dismantle her for the season.

Just trying to rattle your cage Bill, hoping something good for the 18HT comes out of it. I agree with Jalani, thats why, but I should not try to push it. Sorry.

There is gonna be at least one HT at the Buzzelli Multihull legacy regatta in sarasota the 17-19th. I'll be sailing it with Mark Murray. It's a great boat once you figure it out and when sailed well hangs with the I20's just fine.

And Mr Murray is fast. Have fun, tell Mark I send my best.

I'll be there with the Blade. Are you guys gonna do the open water thing on Friday?

sweet. I hope you guys do well. I raced with Mark a decent amount a year ago or so. I love sailing with him on the HT when the wind is up.... always seems to have things under control.

Pic of one of JP's F18HT Berserka's

http://1.2.3.12/bmi/www.geocities.com/stealthmarine2002/cal20low.JPG

Cheshirecatman

I got first hand info from the parties who are (still) the plaintiffs.

Now I'm not saying that things happened this way intentionally, just that at one point no more boats were ever going to be shipped to him even if the builders were offered "what ever price" for their products ... (connect the dots yourself).


But Bill is right, it is better to focus on the initial questions.

Personally, I feel the HT class suffered very badly from over dependence on a single person and the total lost of trust in the class due to all the issues that surfaced at the time of the last planned Worrell 1000. It collapsed like the stock market is doing now; lost of trust meant that even good assets were regarded as devoid of value. The class has a problem right now that no boats are locally made or imported. The latter will not be corrected anytime soon with the US$ having taken a dive over the last few years and some builders having been burned.

Still, I'm sure the class can be revived if some volunteers set themselves to it. But like Bill says the boat has strong points and some serious weakpoints. The newer HT designs in Europe have gone some way in correcting these but these won't be making it to the USA. The US bim HT's (Jav-2's) is not a distance racer, the rearbeam slaps in chop, simple (italian) stuff like shackles break, it has got a mediocre rudder (kickup) system and it has bows that are easily overpowered (mainly lacks freeboard here). The newer HT's (in EU) are still not much of a Texel, Tybee, Worrell like distance racer but all other issues have been adressed. I must add here that Andreas does Texel with his HT's and does well indeed, but the numbers are simply against him especially when there are only short upwind legs and lots of wind.

With the spread in HT's over the nation I don't see much US HT's class racing getting of the ground, especially with the total number of imported boats. However, the boat is a capable open class bouy race in light winds and can be restarted that way. Will take alot of effort of a group of volunteers as they first have to live down the bad rep, but it can be done !

Wouter

Well, go for it !

You guys won't be getting many more chances to kick start the class again in the future !

Cast the iron when it is hot !

Wouter

Ehh Rolf,

A boat with these specs (especially mast height) absolutely NEEDS to have a carbon mast; an item that is very expensive in the USA for any homebuilder. Even Nacra has been replacing the carbon mast on their F17's and also I-20's with aly because of prohibitive high costs.

This is a serious drawback of the HT concept and class when it comes down to the USA.

Wouter

The latest with regard with the activity of the 18HT class in Europe.
The Euro 2008 was sailed in Porto Corsini near Ravanna (Italy).
23 teams from 3 countries (Italy, Switzerland and Poland)
competed.
It was dominated by the BIMARE X-2 which got the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th place. The second was Andy Lutz on an Eagle 18HT. There were also Ventilos and Mattias.
For results and photos have a look at:
http://www.18ht.ch/results.html
and
http://open.bst.ch/ALutz/ost/galleries/Euro08/Highlights/WWW/index.html

The BIMARE X-2 is on sale at EUR 16,000 (a quotation lower than the one of the most F18is). Ventilos and Mattias are more expensive and the Eagle is the most expensive of all (not far from EUR 20,000).
With regard to the PN:
in 2003 the Javelin 2 was given the same PN of the I20

P.S.
For jpoulsen check yr post. Is is too full to receive new private messages

Carbon schmarbon..

Yes a carbon mast makes sense. Yes it costs money. Yes it costs more than an alu extrusion. Who knows what will happen with carbon fiber prices in the future. People are still building and buying A-cats with carbon masts so it is not unobtainable. There are even one-offs with carbon masts becouse they are the boats somebody really wants. Homebuilding masts have been done for all kind of boats up to 60foot trimarans. Carbon can be sourced at affordable prices, we just bought 36kgs of 400gsm weave and uni for US$1900 (I am going to protect and tend to that source). Who cares about all this if they have locked their sights on the 18HT.
I think the 18HT can still be an active class with a good future in the USA, just takes that one person who gets things started. I am certainly not going to step out in front of things and proclaim why any initatives are doomed and point out why repeatedly. No class needs or deserves that. Instead I am going to cheer any initatives that gets more cats on the water.

I am not getting in from RI until friday afternoon so unless Mark finds another crew for that day (or wants to do it himself) we wont be doing the distance race, see you there!

I havent widened mine and sail it all summer single and double handed.

Thanks Rolf!

If someone is interested to do that, just mail me, I'm glad if I can help!
Here in southern/central Europe, the class is definitly progressing (slowly but steady).
And we have two nice little regatta circuits (one in Italy and one in Switzerland) with a good participation of HTs

all the best

Woot,

You are indeed correct on all points. Please keep explaining things to these morons until they finally get it. I know you've been trying for years, but dont worry, it took W almost 8 to straighten us out, so hang in there.

how wide did you make it?

That sounds political. . .

Ya think?!?!??!?!

Hey wouter,
Since you seem to have the inside scoop on All that is catamarans, how 'bout tellin' me how many aluminum masted I-20s there are in Europe? How 'bout the US of A? And when did this Nacra switch to "aly" happen?
Inquiring minds wanna know.

Todd
"Seppo,Gringo,Infidel,Extraordinaire"

Really wasn't meant to be, he was the first one that came to mind for Woot comparison. Where ya been Pete?

Hiding from Ding.

I thought Johny Lovel and Charlie Olgoltree had one that he raced in the "Little America's Cup" and also Pete Johnstone had one that he pimped and painted silver metal flake or something.

I always liked the boat, it was very demanding in a blow and had no business being out in the open ocean in big waves and wind, of a Worrell type race, but in a bay or lake in a good blow it was great fun.

Since the Jav 2 there have been many new F18HT designs that have addressed the submarine bow syndrom. You should check out Andi's web site, he has pictures of most of the new designs.

Oh and It's faster than an Inter 20 unless you take it out in the big ocean waves.

I crewed for Andi one night in Switzerland in a local regatta, we finished in front of a pretty good Tornado team, boat for boat. But it was ideal HT conditions, where we could fly the hull most of the time and they only half the time.

It is a demanding boat to sail well, like a big A cat with a spinnaker.

Allow me to correct describe the situation. The F17 carbon mast has been replaced and over the years there have efforts to do the same with the I-20 mast. However, the latter is NOT a done-deal at this time.

In Europe I've seen only a handful of alu masted I-20's, but these were all try-outs as far as I can determine. It is common knowlegde however that the I-20 carbon masts are ludicrously expensive to replace when broken. Luckily they hardly ever break. Quotes seem to run well above 5000 bucks both in US$ and Euro's. I seem to remember quotes around 7000 bucks even, but that is from memory. I'm not sure why the retail prices are such.

Wouter

I have never seen an ali mast on an I-20. There was never an option from Performance Europe. Any that any that there are would have been retro-fit replacements. I can't remember what I paid for my replacement - about £2000 I think.

I heard i20 mast price is $11k in the US.

What's a new i20 cost?

I have heard rumors that a brand new I 20 is about $19,000, boat and sails only, no trailer, or box, or beach wheels, which will add another $2,000 or so...

If $11,000 of that is just the mast, then you are getting a pretty good deal on all the rest of the parts and sails! Maybe we should just buy them new, without the mast, for $8,000, and sell all the new parts, sails and hulls on Ebay for $10,000!

OR, buy a new alum. wing mast for $3,000, rig it up and go to an INter 20 regatta, get Alex and Nigel to sail it, kick everyone's butt, and watch the price drop on those $11,000 masts! Now that would be funny!

Timbo, I believe the price is closer to $24k new. I believe thats what I heard last time this topic came up.

It is $19,600 from my old dealer, but I don't think that includes the trailer and a box?

http://www.kolius-sailing.com/boats.cfm?p=6960&g=1&b=43

Doug

$24K?? Ouch! No wonder nobody's buying them...

Can they make a carbon wing-mast for it? At the price they rumor for a mast, might as well upgrade...

The carbon wing masts that the Jav 2 came with were very nice, but since Boeing and Airbus are buying up all the carbon they can get to build new airplanes, I doubt it would be much cheaper, if at all, to do a new section in carbon. Until supply catches up with demand, it's going to keep getting more expensive for a -carbon- anything.

The latest rumor I heard from a very reputable source who is extremely involved in the class and manufacturing of the boats is that they might be looking into the marstrom Tornado mast.

Yes its shorter but something is going to have to change if the class is to survive. $11k masts == no new boats... Simple as that.

So what would you say is the maximum realistic USD asking price for a new boat - 20 ft, 18 ft, 16 ft? No trailer, boxes, wheels, etc.

I'd love to see $12K max for new boat, but I'd think $15k is an acheivable goal for mfg. companies given the technology (and carbon) in today's boats, right?

At the $15k mark, I wouldn't expect a lot of mfg. sponsorships, marketing, etc. Keep it cost-effective to own and support your product - that should keep owners doing the marketing for you...

We all want to be rock stars like FoN "Mr. Alicante", but the reality is that for most of us, this is just another expensive hobby. The higher the price tag, the fewer of us can enter the fray...

Things like Alter Cup are great in that they place a number of lightly used (and professionally tuned) boats on the market at decent prices, but you really can't ask mfg. to do more than that. They have to eat too, you know...

I must say that I am a bit surprised to read that some are considering going to Marstrøm to save money. Marstrøm is usually pretty expensive, building in Sweden, high quality etc. so this is surprising.

Hope they approach Marstrøm the right way as Gøran himself is very attached to the Tornado class and I think he do those masts without making a lot of money from them.

We all want to be rock stars like FoN "Mr. Alicante",

And I've already got my Rock Star name picked out, it's "Mr. Ala Carte" Yeah, I'll have the pie, AND the cake!

Guys, 11k for a carbon mast is plain daft, J P at Stealth Marine builds good quality tear drop section masts and by memory they were not a lot over 2K pounds. His moulds would be long enough for your requirements. Drop him an Email and I'm sure he would be able to supply a class with their particular requirements ( and he has the 18HT hull moulds still )

there are plenty of places that can supply the mast we need.

its just that there's no movement by Nacra (US or Nacra EU) to make the change.

If the kit suits and the manufacturer won't play ball why not go it alone? There is plenty of precedence for this. It is not likely that many new boats will be sold with inflated prices so why not bite the bullet and go for "equipment accepted by the class association"?
There have been numerous manufacturers who have been left in the &*5! by not listening to/working with its customers.

Cheshirecatman

how much say does the average N20 sailor have in how Nacra produces a SMOD boat?

How the manufacturer produces a boat is one thing! How the sailors/class associations agree to race them is a different matter. If the manufacturer gets a reputation for ripping off existing sailors class associations have been known to 'break away'. Very few SMOD boats continue without change. Who would risk investing in a new SMOD cat from a manufacturer with a record of not working with its existing customers? Very often a MFR will impose change, generally based upon profit rather than design/quality issues. Sailors do have a voice (and wallets), they just need to use both effectively.

Cheshirecatman

Eric,
Check your messages.

Bill

Folks,
Curious conversation about the I20 mast.
I would be interested to find out:
1) how long this mast is and
2) how much the blank carbon stick weighs?
Appreciate it if someone can satisfy my curiosity?

Regards,
Phill

Actually we have a fleet over in Europe and would like to get in touch with our US colleagues again. Just visit us on http://www.18ht.ch and forum.18ht.ch. Cheers.

just purchased US 22 and trailed it back to Indy, another boat just bought Fla going to Mi

BOUGHT US 22 ANYONE KNOW WHER BILL VINNING , CT WENT , ORIGINAL OWNER US 22, AM 3RD OWNER, HAVE QUESTIONS FOR EXPERT ON JAV2

there are other people around that know the jav2 as well. captaincardiac has one and I co-owned it with him at one point.
btw... where in Michigan? I am outside of detroit and sail on lake st clair

I bought #4 from Jamie Diamond (original owner) this summer. He and I live in Central Ohio.
I would like to talk with Bill Vinning as well. I am giving serious though to widening to 10 or 11' and making an 18 sq out of it. Spinnaker rigged that is. Concerned about beam thickness/dimensions. Anybody care to chime in?
Very cool boat!! Very cool!

i know vinning widened his some- but I think he only did it to 8'6. the boat will get pretty pitchy if you widen it a lot more. there isn't a whole bunch of volume in the bows

Yeah, Bill bought new carbon beams, I think he went to 9', and recommended no more. I agree that the bows don't have enough volume to go much wider. He also raised the rear beam, another good mod. If you can't get a hold of him, pm me, I have a bunch of great correspondence from him re this boat I could pass on. I probably have his email/phone # here somewhere......



Dave
HT # 9

Dave, anything you have would be great. Carbon beams would be nice. Thanks!

I had #24, and it was completely re-built with the W1000 in mind. Replaced all of the aluminum bits with carbon - except the beams. Had them on order, but the W1000 rules came out and specifically denied the use of carbon beams. Guck daggerboards and rudders, reinforced transoms and daggerboard trunks. Beefed up all of the attachment points with additional carbon layup. Also added more carbon to the mast track area to support the Smythe mainsail with reef points. I sold #24 down to the Panama City Beach area, don't know if it's still down there. I think it was destined to be a pleasure sailer...

the one absolutely required mod is raising the rear beam. some people had carbon risers made. we made some aluminum ones.

To the fella who said he'd make the HT into a Square:

the 18 Square refers to 18 square meters of SAIL AREA. Beam is not restricted.

You will certainly not be 18 Square compliant with a spinnaker, and I'm not sure what the TOTAL sailarea of the 18HT is, I expect it's more than 18 square meters which is 193 sq ft as I recall, and you will not be legal in the Square class.

18 Square box rule is pretty much this: maximum 18 sq mtr sailarea in any configuration, 5.5 mtr maximum boat length, beam not restricted. If all up boat weight is less than 330 lb, you are Category 1, and if more than 330 lb you are Category 2.

18Ht sail area is 20 sq meters. same sail area (or very similar) to the N20

http://www.18ht.ch/design-en.html

Tommy Granger (re)- built a nice one in the Clear Lake/Houston area. Maybe he'll cjhime in.

I widened my HT to 8' 6", I was going to 9', but then decided not to, I didnt want to worry about trailering it. I got beams from Forte, www.forterts.com, they sell them in 10' lengths, so I had some extra which I made risers from for the rear beams. This worked out great, and now I have a backrest to lean on when I am driving. All the other systems work perfectly with the wider beams, including the rigging. The only consideration is the tramp, which i will need to be widened, and I had replaced the tramp with a new one that laced up on the sides. Kinder can make you a "Acat style" tramp and I can suppy pictures if you need them to give to kinder. www.kinder-industries.com

Bill