Well...I didn't want to -go there- but I know how you love it so... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> And I wish you guys had come out to play on Sunday but thank you for taking one for the team. Too good of you, really. But thanks. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

There will be other opportunities, Clearwater comes to mind. You think you can get GYC F16's to drive the 20 minutes down the road for this one? I think the mast up storage at GYC is making them lazy.

no one seems willing to summarize in an understandable (at least to me) manner....
so.. to summarize
the marks that denote (pin or bt)the starting line cease to be a part of the start line after the start and are therefore treated like any other marks.
agree?

huh <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Yeah pretty much, the line becomes an obstruction.

When is the Clearwater race? I think you are right, if they already have a local series where their boats are already set up, why would they leave? I think we should all move to St. Pete and sail there every weekend! But that's not going to happen, so...

And I doubt they will do anything just for me, they might need a boot in the Nutz to get motivated.
You are a much better -nutz booter- than I, so have at it! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I registered yesterday, thankyou very much!

Registrastion link please?

http://www.regattaprocessing.com/CCSC/Carlisle08/index.php

If you've never been there, it's as nice a facility as we have in Florida. The dinner is catered by some fancy-pants restaurants and is really, really good!

It's also an important charity event for the local kids. If I remember correctly one of the beneficiaries is a program called "Access Dingies" or some such. A very worthwile program by any name.

You guys got me to reading my OFFICIAL 2005-2008 US Sailing Rules of Sailboat Racing ....

So lets back-up this scenerio a little bit and look at:

Sec A/Rule 11: Same Tack/Overlapped- When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boatshall KEEP CLEAR of the LEEWARD boat.

vs

SecB/Rule17.1: Same Tack, Proper course- If a boat from clear astern becomes overlapped with-in two boatlengths to LEEWARD of a boat on the same tack she shall not sail above her Proper Course while they remain OVERLAPPED ....

So it is important how the overlap was established intitially .... your scenerio leads me to believe that the overlap was established by the windward boat ... correct???

Therefore:

1)The leeward boat is allowed to "Pinch-up/luff" slowly giving the windward boat opportunity to keep clear and the windward boat is reguired to keep clear ...

2)You must do this far enough before the finish line so as the rules for Marks/Obstruction DO NOT come into effect.

3) if the OVERLAP was intitially established by the leeward boat, the leeward boat is obligated to sail their PROPER COURSE to the next mark (unless the overlap was broken at some point by getting CLEAR AHEAD of the windward boat) ie: the leeward boat can not "scrap/peal" the windward boat off by using the mark and pinching-up since it can be demonstrated that the windward boat was sailing her PROPER COURSE to the next mark.

This is my interpitation of the rules for this scenerio ... I am VERY interested if I have analyzed this situation correctly

The real point here is that you may have waited to long to do what you needed to do ....

Sailing is like CHESS ... you need to be thinking several moves ahead ....

Personally, I try to "keep clear" at all Marks/Obstructions because the "Rights" change under the rules so quickly ... I usually hail other boats early and state what I believe the applicable rules/rights are ... Ex: Just before the two boat length circle: You have established NO inside overlap ...I will not leave room !!!!! (You have no rights, so don't be sticking your bow in there)

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail Safe
Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC

You have it correct, after we both tacked to the finish line, he was behind but because he was more over stood than I, he could come down, faster, and established an overlap well outside of the 2 boatlength circle, more like about 50 yards out.

I guess I could have started pinching him up as soon as I saw him coming down fast, well before the finish line, and maybe held him off, but since he was on a larger, faster boat, I figured I was going to get rolled one way or the other. As it was he beat me across the line by one second but owed me much more than that, so I was not worried about losing to him.

But if we had been on the same type boat, I might have been able to pinch him up and out earlier as we would have been going the same speed, not him so much faster.

Tim you cant pinch him and make him sail a higher course you must give him room.

Yes you can, and should, until you are within the two boatlength circle and he calls for room, because you might soon get a headder and not be overstood anymore, so you should "put some in the bank".

We were about 200 yards away when we both tacked to starboard to get to the finish line, the wind shifted right and bingo, we were both overstood. If you are leeward boat you can (and should) sail as high as you want going upwind, until he has an overlap and needs room at the mark.

I didn't bother to do that as I was more interested in getting to the finish line ASAP to save my time on the rest of the fleet, since we were racing corrected time, so rather than F with him, I just went for the line, he came in from above going faster, established an overlap and called for room, which I gave. Had it been -you- however... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(I'm teasing, I would have given you room too, but not Ding, never give room to Ding!)

No Room for YOU, NEXT! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No you cant because then you wont be sailing the proper course to the finish line.

Robi, please define "Proper course".

We were always told when team racing that you can take another boat to windward of the finish line as long as you also go to windward of the finish; we were also always told to start planning and executing this EARLY to make it clear to the other boat what you were doing, in case they do not know the rules (not probable in team racing, but you never know...) and so the ctb cannot get in the way, as you cannot force them into the CTB, and so you would then have to give them water to avoid the CTB, and then there may not be room for both of you to go between the CTB and an inner spacer mark, and thus you would have to let them in to cross the finish line.



As far as I know, same rules apply when fleet racing.

Edit to add; if you tack under someone, you need to get clear ahead to start luffing above close hauled.

Proper course-

You sail to the pin or c-boat (whichever will be the mark on starboard side) and plan to almost scrape paint.

To me proper course means - the shortest course between the marks. You cannot carry another competitor way off course. That is not good sportsmanship. Just like room at the marks, you are entitled to do a tactical rounding, as long as its done in a seamanship manner. You are not allowed to go way off course.

You over stood the line, you are sailing a lower course, anything higher than required and you are no longer maintaining a proper course.
Its even worst if you are pushing a windward boat above the mark where he will miss it in order to avoid a collision with your boat.

Tim is this a good representation of your encounter?

The lines connecting the marks are the laylines.
The circle around the N20 is his two boat length zone.

Proper Course-course which would be sailed in the absence of other boats to finish fastest. So not always the shortest distance, esp. downwind where a proper course for one boat might be wider,faster angles, not the shorter distance but slower speed of running.

Robi,

You really need to read the rule book some more.


Proper Course is a defined term in the rules.:
A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.
(italicized words are defined terms in the rules)


Yes you can, and it's done quite often in high level events. The last race of the F-18 Worlds last year, Bundy match raced Mitch Booth right off the course to assure his win.


I would tend to agree with you there, especially for local stuff - but when you get to the real pointy end of the fleet, it is an acceptable end-game strategy.

Whenever you look at a rules situation, it's best to break it down into its individual components and think of rules switching on or off.

The first part of this scenario is straight forward windward / leeward - Rule 11:
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

Rule 17.1 does not apply, since the windward boat established an overlap from astern.

The leeward boat can do whatever she pleases, including going head to wind, as long as she complies with Rule 16.1 (gives the other boat room to keep clear).

As they approach the finish line, the end of the finish line is a mark and Rule 18 switches on "when boats are about to round or pass a mark they are required to leave on the same side, until they have passed it."

Rule 18.2(a) requires the leeward boat to give room to the windward boat starting at the two-boat length zone, but only just enough room to pass the mark.

Notice that there is no mention of proper course in either of these rules. Proper Course is only used in Rules 17.1, 17.2, 18.1(b) and 18.4 - none of which apply here.


This is really a fairly simple rules question - you guys have made it much more complicated than it really is.