As we all wait for the new Hobie F18, I want to hear everyone's opinions on how to create a new and better cat design. If the Hobie designers turned to YOU for advice, what would you say?

With the introduction of the capricorn and the infusion, there has been quite a change in design philosophy from the older Inter F18 and the Tiger. While the Capriocorn took the whole wave piercing theory a step further, the infusion has loads of volume around the front beam, thus preventing it from stuffing it when the wind is up. What do YOU think is the way to go?

I know all the F16 guys will say "make it 70 kilos lighter, and being able to sail one or two up". That's not the point here, I wanna hear propositions that can be applied to all cat designs and sizes...

Lower the price.

I would tell Hobe to go and negotiate a deal with Phill Brander about the Blade design and put him on the design and production team. Honestly.

I think the way forward is with drag reduction from the whole package, easier/better handling/trimming and doing a couple of prototypes before comitting to full production.

I dont know if there are sailing prototypes of the new design though, so I might very well be completely wrong about the last point.

Sorry to hear the impression you got of the F16 class. Hope we will be able to redeem ourself.

Jimi,
this is a very interesting question. There have been times when manufacturers took the "what the client wants/think" approach (not reffering necessarily to cat designs), but this makes me wonder: why on earth do they employ designers that haven't already improved "today's cat designs". I mean: for every boat that comes off the production line - there is a designer behind it - why isn't he doing his job of improving things ?

I think I can speculate on why: they are designed mostly by economists rather then listening to good designers.

Scenario: manufacturer makes a study how to improve designs by asking sailors. They make a list. List goes to designer - works great. Designs goes to financial department. Design goes back to drawing board for modifications. You end up with a boat that hasn't got the "improvements".

Manufacturers (most of them) are lead by profit, the margin of improvement has to be parallel to improvements in manufacturing techniques that makes the design economically feasable. As some of the manufacturers still use technique from the 80' then...how can you really improve?

If we are only reffering to hull design - as long as they do employ designers for that (that probably get paid a lot) why are we to bother thinking about it ? Possible answer :they don't do new designs too often, just "face lifting" models from time to time. "Face lifting" is not an improvement, it is a marketing strategy to sell something old.

I'm not familiar to Hobie or other manufacturers innovation an improvement time table, but we should start analizing it.
Most of the "innovations" and "improvements" out there are much more probably updates of major design flaws.
Can we spot some of those and see if they were marketed updated as major innovations or improvements ?

The best way would probably be to start from scratch. New designer, new model. But major manufacturers will only put as much as little "new" into the boat so they can sell future models as well.

Too long post. Sorry. Got carried away.

Regards,

'New and Better'?
New isn't always better - just different. Almost everything is a compromise. You could probably design a blisteringly quick boat for certain conditions but it may be extremely difficult to sail consistently well. Many things appear because of fashion or the desire to create something different to generate new boat sales. If a front of the fleet private owner changes his boat every three years is he going to replace it with on older design or the latest so called improved boat? Stick a front of fleet sailor on an old but perfectly serviceable boat and chances are he's still going to be at the front of the fleet. The skill is knowing how to get the best out of your equipment and sailing it accordingly. Trying to match the performance of another design is normally not sailing yours to the optimum.

Possible area for development:
-Control/adjustment of foils
-Automatic mast rotation adjustment to mainsail trim.

Suggestions on others??????


Cheshirecatman

All design is a compromise. All design is an evolution of a previous design. Design is an iterative process, particularly yacht design. NOONE gets it correct straight out of the box, if they did there'd be no need to tuning. The best you can hope for is that the person paying for the product is "happy" with the purchase.

What is your definition of "better". Cheaper may be better...faster may be better...faster in light winds may be better...

As a designer, the question is way too vague.

an old staple of marketing is that all the customer wants is last year's model cheaper

as that would cut into profit margins the challenge for the maker is to use better production techniques to make some thing cheaper and hence more profitable. as this usually requires new molds etc. it is a good idea to also to make the bits better by either being lighter or of improved function.

i'm happy with my 26 year old cat, it's heavier than it could be but seems very strong.

if i had the cash for a new boat i would be looking for something lighter that could be sailed solo

something like a 100kg A cat that cost no more than a hobie16

• Don't put one of those spindly wing mast bits of nonsense onto the new boat. I say this as a sailor...If I was selling the boats I'd be all for wing masts and the parts income they generate for dealers.
• A little more volume upfront (Infusion style) would make the boat a little less tricky to sail down wind in a breeze (a little harder to stuff).
• Make it sexy looking with some new feature to fool the gullible into thinking that this boat wins championships on its own (forget about those two primates pulling the strings and pushing the tiller).
• Other than that I'm not a naval architect and reckon the best thing the designers could do with my advice is to politely ignore it.

Chris.

You joke, I think, but that would be the best thing for cats...A fully competitive F18 or F20, with target prices of 10-12K. While it may seem impossible, if 'economy of scale' were possible, it would be a boom to the MH class. (This of course, presupposes that an untapped market exists for selling the boats.)

Lowering weight (< 150 kg/320lbs) and reducing drag would be good.

However, strongly reducing tendency to pitch-pole would be the biggest improvement. That would enable us to push much harder.
And it would draw many more people to cats. A lot of people are reluctant to sail cats for fear of cartwheels.

So I think T-foil rudders (that may be tilted up for beaching) and flatter bottoms (as on the Infusion) - both mesasures to reduce pitching - are important developments.

(And, if someone could find a way to reduce the space taken up in the boat park, all arguments against cats would be eliminated. Almost.)

Stein

Hi Stein,

enjoyed watching you on TV last friday

What is up for the Taipain5.7 next season? New sails and a snuffer?

ncik said:



Very accurate.

Right now, I think "better" -- to define "better" -- is getting more people to buy the product.

The simplicity and value of jet skis has replaced catamarans at their level of use here, IMHO.

What is missing is something in the 16-foot range that is not over-technical, is moderately priced, and, as Stein says --



The performance cats (they are not beach cats!) are too technical and too risky for popular sailing.

The rotomoldeds have all the right features for popularity except extra speed and agility. The Wave is a 14-footer that is about right (and I assume this is why Rick and Mary like it), but its speed is limited. The Getaway is a fun boat, but not agile enough.

What is missing is something is the middle category between the fun, beach cats and the performance cats. (The H16 is a performance cat IMO.)

The Pearl (greeeeaaat name choice?!) or TheMightyHobie18 may be the right choice in Europe but not here.

The catamaran is moving from a fun boat to a yacht status, in my opinion. And that is not good. $11K for an N20 mast proves it...

Seen the Topaz 14/16?

Cheshirecatman

Swedish bikini support crews?

not my quote...



that would be "better"

Better margin for the dealers, so we don't have to live in our vans down by the river;) Although it is kind of nice down here...

J

I sailed the Topaz 16CX (top of the range with better sails and a spi) solo once. It's a fun boat, but it needs a lot of wind to move. In the 7-8knts I experienced at the time it was a dog... In retrospect I should have rigged the jib in addition of the main.

Compared to a F16, the CX is more robust (rotomolded hulls), has less sail area, is 40kgs heavier and has no boom nor daggerboards.

However it cost only(!) £6000, for reference a double handed Stealth is £9200 (could be more if you want a self tacker or carbon foils), a Hobie 16 with a spi is £9700.

Slightly off topic...

It will be interesting to see how well the roto-moulded boats hold up in the long term. On one hand they can handle a bump here and there, but this could mean ppl treat them worse than optimal hence reducing their life span.

funny how the Tiger is still competitive, maybe newer isnt always better

More boyancy in bows
Less in transom to keep butt from being lifted and driving bows.
Plenty of clearance between beams and waterline, particularly rear beam.

KEEP IT SIMPLE

I really like the Tornado c/boards. Whilst they are not quite as efficient upwind. Not having to put them up on the downwind saves plenty of time allowing you to wind the big fella up earlier. Also cleans up the deck. Do not have a board getting in the crew's way or a sharp trailing edge welcoming a painfull strike if you slide into it on a nose dive. Perhaps revise the shape of the boards. More of a regular dagger board shape...... Perhaps like the Taipan 4.9 / 5.7.

Wide beam, but quick release beam set up so you can trailer dismantled. Purpose build a trailer with a huge gear box which runs full length of trailer and design a quick, no tie system to hold the hulls on top. Perhaps an upside down cradle that swings over the top and locks the hulls in with a pin.


Consider multiple rig sizes for varing wind strenghts like the Skiffs.

2 complete rigs.

or 1 mast with a step

or with one mast and allow the ability (within class rules) to select main sail size before a race. 1 x full size and another partial, flatter heavy wind main.