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Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #164917
01/14/09 10:49 AM
01/14/09 10:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Water

Neither Gowrie Barden (USSA insurance) or the David Agency (formerly Meyers Briggs) require individual liability insurance as a pre condition for the OA to purchase regatta liability insurance.

Property owners, may require individual insurance to use their property. Many YC's or marina's will require liability coverage as a condition for keeping your property on their property.

Property owners often require the OA to insure their property for booze, and other liability for the event. That insurance is separate (On the Beach Insurance) and costs you another 400 plus 50 (or so) to name the property owner.

I have never seen a requirement for an individual to have liability coverage.

International events are different. Many examples of one competitor with or without insurance telling the other to get lost (see Mike Hill's story). Events like OCR require you to hand in a zerox of your liability coverage. The USSA OD individual insurance program was modeled on the coverage that the Tornado Olympic guys needed for international events. (it includes boat charters, chartering,)

If you want to do the insurance proof... I think you have to go all the way and collect a copy of the proof of insurance.

Note added.
Dave, that is not the story I got from Chubb.. or David. This was three years ago. Again. If were true... almost every YC would require racers to show proof of insurance... Fact of the matter... all of the CBYRA YC's on the bay DO NOT MENTION LIABILITY INSURANCE nor does the Key West RW NOR.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 01/14/09 10:55 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
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Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: Mark Schneider] #164918
01/14/09 11:16 AM
01/14/09 11:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Gawd, I feel like we are in the same spot as that other issue we were discussing...


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: Mark Schneider] #164919
01/14/09 11:19 AM
01/14/09 11:19 AM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
From the sailing side of things... The sport would ban the skipper from future racing. All of the sailing rules are grounded in Corinthian ideals where you self police the game of sailboat racing.


Not sure what you mean here. The only way to get banned that I'm aware of is by US SAILING / ISAF. I doubt they would do that over insurance.

If you really want to know what your OA coverage is good for, try banning someone from events. The lawyers will line up for that one.

Mike

Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: brucat] #164923
01/14/09 11:31 AM
01/14/09 11:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Mike
Yes, the YC or OA would petition USSA to ban the individual from all events for sportsmanship. (Time consuming and a PIA).
How else would you run the game?

Of course we could always use the instant justice in the sand solution favored by many for racing violations. In this instance... you would get about 10 fleet members with bats and educate the S.O.B. This is an entirely new game though.

Personally, I choose plan A.... but no doubt... Plan B is fast and a reasonable deterrent to the S.O.B and every body else.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: Mark Schneider] #164928
01/14/09 11:50 AM
01/14/09 11:50 AM
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brucat Offline
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I guess my point is that banning people is a very, very extreme case, and while negligence may be ugly, it may not get someone banned.

It may be hard to prove that someone intended to be fraudulent to the point that they should be banned.

The bats would be cheaper and probably more effective. Wave them around, just don't actually use them. Of course, you'll probably just get sued for making someone feel uncomfortable... and yes, the lawyers would go after Louisville Slugger, and maybe the poor bastard who owned the ash forest...

Mike

Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: brucat] #164933
01/14/09 12:09 PM
01/14/09 12:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Mugrace72  Offline
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As a race organizer, you can reject any entry for any reason, or even no reason, partcularly if you state it in the NOR. Even the Rules of Racing state that you can cancel or exclude a competitor so long as you do it before the start and state the reason.

Originally Posted by brucat
[quote=Mark Schneider]

If you really want to know what your OA coverage is good for, try banning someone from events. The lawyers will line up for that one.

Mike


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: Mugrace72] #164934
01/14/09 12:17 PM
01/14/09 12:17 PM
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brucat Offline
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You CAN, does not equal, this is a good idea.

This has gotten YCs on the banned list...

Mike

Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: Mark Schneider] #164939
01/14/09 12:28 PM
01/14/09 12:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Dave, that is not the story I got from Chubb.. or David. This was three years ago. Again. If were true... almost every YC would require racers to show proof of insurance... Fact of the matter... all of the CBYRA YC's on the bay DO NOT MENTION LIABILITY INSURANCE nor does the Key West RW NOR.


I guess some current policy holder needs to confirm one way or another.

I think most YC don't have to ask about insurance because the boats are bigger (over 16') and are registered (which requires proof of insurance). ??


Jay

Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #164945
01/14/09 12:37 PM
01/14/09 12:37 PM
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Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Mugrace72  Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb


I think most YC don't have to ask about insurance because the boats are bigger (over 16') and are registered (which requires proof of insurance). ??


I have never heard of registration requiring proof of insurance.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: Mugrace72] #164950
01/14/09 12:44 PM
01/14/09 12:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Alter Cup Area D South Eliminations
Kelly Park River Regatta

That's just two.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: Mugrace72] #164951
01/14/09 12:44 PM
01/14/09 12:44 PM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A


Originally Posted by Mugrace72
I have never heard on registration requiring insurance.


Current Tybee NOR - http://www.tybee500.com/race/nor/1/09_tybee_nor.pdf

7. Entrants will be weighed prior to the start, safety equipment will be verified, and
sails will be officially measured and marked by Race Officials. Factory hull numbers
and rating certificates may be required. Proof of liability insurance will be required,
with a copy submitted with registration
. Sailing instructions will be available online
shortly after advanced registration.

Last edited by andrewscott; 01/14/09 12:45 PM.
Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: David Ingram] #164953
01/14/09 12:45 PM
01/14/09 12:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Alter Cup Area D South Eliminations
Kelly Park River Regatta

That's just two.


I mean registration of boats, i.e. licensing!


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #164954
01/14/09 12:50 PM
01/14/09 12:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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You are thinking about cars. Boats are different. In MD... it's all about the motor for registration purposes.

do you think the Opti parent does not have liability coverage on his kid's Opti?

Size has nothing to do with liability. YC's don't ask about this insurance coverage stuff because it's a nightmare of paperwork and NOT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: David Ingram] #164967
01/14/09 01:34 PM
01/14/09 01:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
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fin. Offline
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I'm not positive, but the GYC regattas may require proof of insurance. It's a requirement of membership.

Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: fin.] #164968
01/14/09 01:46 PM
01/14/09 01:46 PM
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Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Membership in the club yes!...

The question here is "Is it a requirement for guests to race" and are you asked to state that you have 100K liability insurance... or are you asked to present proof of insurance.

Think of the liability insurance requirement as part of the game versus a pre-requisite that you must prove in order to participate in the game. If you make it a pre requisite... you better do it properly.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: Mark Schneider] #164969
01/14/09 01:52 PM
01/14/09 01:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Think of the liability insurance requirement as part of the game versus a pre-requisite that you must prove in order to participate in the game. If you make it a pre requisite... you better do it properly.



I would certainly agree with that statement. If you're going to do it, you'd be best served by not going 1/2 a**, because that's the sure way to lose....


Jay

Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #164974
01/14/09 02:03 PM
01/14/09 02:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Yes I agree.

So far, the only reason that I have heard of for requiring proof of insurance is for regattas with international competitors because they can leave the country and not be touched.

Even so, I personally know of a very famous Swedish Olympic medalist who skipped out of a high speed port starboard crunch and refused to pay damages. So even though he had liability coverage... it doesn't mean that you will be covered. S had to use his own insurance and pay the 800 dollar deductible...



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: Mark Schneider] #164978
01/14/09 02:59 PM
01/14/09 02:59 PM
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BrianK Offline
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Even getting a copy of someone insurance doesnt mean they still have it. Theres nothing stopping someone from getting a policy, paying the premium, and then cancelling it a week later and getting a refund. They still have the piece of paper that says they are insured. Its my understanding that this happens with auto insuance a lot! People get insurance to register their car and then cancel it right after.

Reasoning for requiring insurance is:

1) It is a reminder to those that would normally have gotten insurance and have forgotten, or have simply been too busy.
2) It can be a real benefit when a boat(s) gets damaged on or off the race course.
3) Beachcats are inheriently different than monohulls. We launch and return in areas populated by other people. We have an increased risk for personal liability.
4) It is yet another liability buffer.

Of course its not full proof, but I believe that the vast majority of catsailors I have met are responsible people, and when they say they have insurance, they are being honest about it. I think the majority of catsailors realize insurance is being required because of the benefits to the individual sailors and the event, and not because we like to be a PITA.

We have had two sailors drive their mast up boats on trailers into power lines over the years. No one was hurt and they were good guys who Im sure would not have sued anyone, but their family and relatives? Who knows. Id rather they have insurance just in case.

As for the MYC suit, my understanding (and I very well may be wrong on the details) was that the suit was brought by a sailor who was also a lawyer and it was not over a particular accident, it was more related to a rating and scoring issue. I believe he did eventually lose and it ended up costing everyone a lot of money and time.

At the end of the day, requiring insurance is a relatively simple, inexpensive way, we can add a level of responsibility to our sport while providing some good benefits.

Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: BrianK] #164985
01/14/09 03:42 PM
01/14/09 03:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Brian

Most YC's don't require liability insurance
Your point of view is that your club should require it. Ok

The problem is when you require proof to gain entry into the game of racing and don't collect the copy.

If you resolve the issue with a statement on the entry form to the effect of

I certify that I have XXX amount of third party liability insurance.

I suggest this language meets your goals.

You would not open any can of worms and be in line with the EU and not out of line with the YC policy in this country.




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Regatta Liablity Proof.... Why? [Re: Mark Schneider] #164987
01/14/09 04:08 PM
01/14/09 04:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Brian... two more questions.

Have you thought through "what you do with the insurance information that you have collected"

If two boats have a collision and one of them demands insurance information from the other but is refused by the sailor and he is now standing in front of you as the OA and demanding you turn over the insurance info ... What do you as the OA do?
If you turn over the copy.... do you violate someone's privacy? Do you call the police? Can he sue you for turning over the paper... It's just an amazing snake pit.

What are you going to do with the certs that you collect. File em... Destroy them by shredding, toss em in the dumpster on the way out of the club. Is this really what your OA wants to be doing?


crac.sailregattas.com
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