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#166087 - 01/25/09 05:42 PM Re: News [Re: Gato]  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Scarecrow
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The fundamental flaw here is that everyone behind this class is doing it from a volunteer basis that means there is 0 marketing budget and that work will always take second place to something that pays better.

Wouter in what year was F16 first formalised and how many boats existed at the end of the first, second, third, fourth etc years.

The problem as Gato points out is a lack of production boats this will eventually be fixed but we need to demonstrate a demand first.

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#166094 - 01/25/09 10:27 PM Re: News [Re: Wouter]  
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JeffS Offline
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Originally Posted by Wouter

Why am I not surprised at this outcome ?
But the best quote is by Jeff :" ... so we've been held up and my older daughter with her crew are now over the weight for an F12 ..."
Seems you guys have some fundamental design flaws in the boats and class.
Wouter


Come on Wouter try only posting when your not pissed.
I have two 11ft Arafura Cadet cats on the water at the moment which qualify as F12's they are a great novice cat that a parent and child can sail together. The F12's I will build will be a better platform for people to learn on or kids to sail. The delay in getting my F12's meant that my kids learnt to happily sail 14ft Arrow cats so they dont see the need to drop down to a 12ft cat. That may change once my first F12's on the water with its high profile rig and only 0.6m2 sail area less than a 14ft Arrow. Look back at the original posts when the whole F12 concept started, it was to introduce inexpensive easy to build, light to handle, easy to rig cats that introduces people to catamaran sailing. This project has accomplished that, any body with an old cat thats hulls are rotten can slide F12 hulls under their hardware and be sailing in a couple of weeks.


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#166104 - 01/26/09 02:34 AM Re: News [Re: JeffS]  
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Gato Offline
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Iím really happy that you are going to build the F12 even if you donít really need it. Still Iím ready to put some money on that it will not bee spending itís time on the beach once your kids get their hands on it. I think that even you with a lot of different cats will like it and specially itís over all weight of just 50 kgs.

#166108 - 01/26/09 03:53 AM Re: News [Re: ]  
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Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Quote

The fundamental flaw here is that everyone behind this class is doing it from a volunteer basis that means there is 0 marketing budget and that work will always take second place to something that pays better.



Just more excusses, mate.

How do you think we started the F16 class ? With a million dollar budget and full-time class officials ?

Yes, I had a full-time job on the side back then as well, as had all others involved in the F16 class.


Quote

Wouter in what year was F16 first formalised and how many boats existed at the end of the first, second, third, fourth etc years.


Actually, the F12 is now in its 4th year from its first appearance public scene (main forum catsailor). The F16 class by that time (it started in may 2001) had long finalized its class rules and had just launched the commercially build Blade F16 by Vectorworks Marine after the Stealth F16 had become the first commercially build boat in the class during 2002 (1 year after the start of the class). Additionally, by that time we had had several inaugural class events in Europe, USA and Australia, where we had 5 or more boats racing eachother. The total number of boats in the world by the end of 4 years was beyond 50 and from that point onwards the class accellerated growth as it had established itself as a viable alternative. 2 years later we had our first Global Challenge, the Alter Cup event (with suppied boats) and a third purpose designed commericial F16 by AHPC.

You guys have 2 more years to beat this fact sheet; if you want to keep comparing these two classes.

I'm sorry to believe that the F12 is nowhere near that point. So lets not compare these two classes with eachother. It serves no purpose.


I still believe the F12 concept is a very good one and one that will sell well when its parameters are well balanced. I just don't see the "Oceania approach" as very well thought out. I think Jeff's comment is illustrative of that. The F12's may be the best designed 12 footers on the planet, but that is only half of the situation. The design must be just right for the potential customer base and the time frame of its launch. I see the F12 failing convincingly on the "other half".


I do check on the F12 and think "Told you so" when I see all this happen. Afterall, I took alot of flak and indeed promises of great succes if only we were to follow the "Oceania approach". Excusse me for finally wanting to see these great promises by well experience designers who were so much unlike nasty old Wouter being furfilled.

I'm still waiting !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#166111 - 01/26/09 04:05 AM I still say ... [Re: Wouter]  
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Wouter Offline
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I still say that the path to a succesful F12 design and class lays along :

-1- Simplified aluminium rig using prismatic standard alu tubes that slide into one another. Preferably unstayed and with a pocket luff.

-2- Standard size straight alu beams

-3- Enough volume in the hulls to carry a full sized adult or two kids.

-4- Optimized for peak performance with 12-16 years olds and women of all ages. Recreationally fun for larger adult males.

-5- Remove everything that is not strickly necessary. This means diamond wires etc.

-6- Accept a little higher minimum weight to allow for very cheap series production by relatively unskilled workers (hence the mast design under point 1)

-7- Design the craft in such a way that they can be completed by any amateur, possibly after purchasing the hulls commercially. Home building wing shape carbons masts is NOT an option.

-8- Force all designs to a very recognizable single appearence c.q. performance.

-9- WORK, WORK, WORK on getting yourself (the class) a network of volunteers and commercial builders. Present them with a well thought out single plan and drive. Wide open class rules scare the builders away, because they don't know what to expect. This leads to a delicate balancing act with regard to the class rules and lots of campaigning/promoting.


I think we all remember my ideal setup.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#166112 - 01/26/09 04:10 AM Re: News [Re: Wouter]  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Scarecrow
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Wouter,

I have no interest in getting in a fight with you. I became involved in F12 because I want to kids sailing, not to see my name in lights. Please keep this sort of discussion for elsewhere as it doesn't do any class F16 or F12 any benefit to have arguments in their forums when these represent the class's primary public face.

There is nothing in the rules that stops your ideal boat being built. Get it on the water and show us how wrong we were.

Last edited by Scarecrow; 01/26/09 04:11 AM.
#166114 - 01/26/09 04:31 AM Re: I still say ... [Re: Wouter]  
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I agree with Scarecrow, and I would have built your design (and can still consider it)if you would have supplied me with a set of drawings to build it from, it's very hard to build something that is sailing just from words...

#166123 - 01/26/09 07:16 AM Re: I still say ... [Re: Gato]  
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I know my younger daughter will sail the F12 the only question is the bouyancy for a crew because we have a very social junior sailing here now and its not uncommon for 2 boats to stay on the beach and have 4 or 5 in a boat all laughing and carrying on. My 8yo lad will sail the F12 when he's big enough but at the moment he's about right on the Arafura in light wind and we've just had a 12yo join the club who will be sailing my other Arafura. I have a policy at the club of rigging all cats then let the kids sail what they want, they actively change crews and once the F12 is on the beach I don't think it will stay dry.
The early F16 was based on the established 4.9 Taipan's and similar which I believe are superb boats, my approach to the F12 is not commercial its just kids on cats which will be slow but sure.
Wouter at my club the F12 project is already a great success, when it started I had two 420's for kids and that was our total junior sailing now I have had 20 different kids sail our 5 cats this summer without a sexy F12 sitting on the beach so just sip on your beer and think positive thoughts.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#166137 - 01/26/09 08:40 AM Re: I still say ... [Re: JeffS]  
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I am just completing my rotational moulded F12, I'm sorry I can't post pictures just yet as there are some features that are covered by a confidentiality agreement at the moment. The first hulls were completed just before xmas, and I have been setting up the rest of the boat over the last few weeks.

I will be trying out a number of different mast configurations both stayed and unstayed over the next few months, with a view to having a boat ready for our cadet section to test at the beginning of the 2009 season.

Gareth

#166214 - 01/26/09 03:54 PM Re: I still say ... [Re: grob]  
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Luiz Offline
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This is great news. Try to make it as simple and inexpensive as possible.

About the discussion going on, fast or slow, the F12 is starting. The first designs are relatively sophisticated and growth is not expected to be fast at this point.

Personally, I support the class and the group 100%, but still have secret hopes to see it become a strict one design. Maybe not exactly Wouter's design, but something like RGs first drawings (tripod suported self standing mast) with the latest hulls, possibly rotomolded.

Whatever becomes the winning boat, concept or set of rules, we must be all committed to support it, for the ultimate goal is to attack with this boat/concept/set of rules the market niche that nowadays is monopolized by the Optimist and Laser with the ultimate purpose to keep adult multihull fleets growing.

Please try to focus on this and other common interests instead of wasting your valuable time fighting.

All the best,
Luiz


Luiz
#166264 - 01/27/09 04:38 AM Re: I still say ... [Re: Luiz]  
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Gato Offline
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At present I have some friends working on a single skin glass fibre F12 (Tabby), itís slow because of lack of time but there is a strong intention to get it done.

#167578 - 02/08/09 05:54 AM Re: I still say ... [Re: Gato]  
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Gato I just realised that Scarecrow and I havn't explained our delay properly. I don't want to just build a boat of the plan's I could have done that easily a long time ago, Scarecrow is using me as his first customer to organise his supply line for kits. Once he has someone who will punch out the hulls and supply the sails I will build the kit and be able to assist others that want to build the boat. So in a way Scarecrow is trying to launch the first commercial F12.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#167619 - 02/08/09 02:27 PM Re: I still say ... [Re: JeffS]  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Scarecrow
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Jeff,

I've lost you number, can you please call me.

Chris

#174027 - 04/06/09 05:03 PM Re: I still say ... [Re: ]  
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Any new news on any of the builds?

I've supplied the hull lines and basic laminate for a second Tabby to Europe.

#174060 - 04/06/09 07:46 PM Re: I still say ... [Re: ncik]  

**DONOTDELETE**
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There are a few things happening....

I was talking to RG last week and one of his boats is reportadly beating Hobie 16s to the top mark at its local club (before being killed off the breeze).

Ncik, can you please give me a call on 0400 628 379 at some stage.

Chris

#174067 - 04/07/09 02:51 AM Re: I still say ... [Re: ]  
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Gato Offline
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I recived the sail for the first Tabby and will start to make it's own mast (foam/carbon) and I hope to have the DS and the Tabby on the startingline as the season open

#175510 - 04/21/09 03:04 AM Re: News [Re: JeffS]  
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Matthew Dawson Offline
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Matthew Dawson  Offline
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Originally Posted by JeffS

Come on Wouter try only posting when your not pissed.
I have two 11ft Arafura Cadet cats on the water at the moment which qualify as F12's they are a great novice cat that a parent and child can sail together. The F12's I will build will be a better platform for people to learn on or kids to sail. The delay in getting my F12's meant that my kids learnt to happily sail 14ft Arrow cats so they dont see the need to drop down to a 12ft cat. That may change once my first F12's on the water with its high profile rig and only 0.6m2 sail area less than a 14ft Arrow. Look back at the original posts when the whole F12 concept started, it was to introduce inexpensive easy to build, light to handle, easy to rig cats that introduces people to catamaran sailing. This project has accomplished that, any body with an old cat thats hulls are rotten can slide F12 hulls under their hardware and be sailing in a couple of weeks.


Hi Jeff,

I have just started sailing again after a break of about 20 years. I am currently sailing an old Cobra. My two girls (9 and 7) are enjoying sailing with me and are really keen to learn themselves. I think it would be great to get them into an Arafura Cadet. Where did you get yours from? Were they second hand or did you build them? I'd be interested to know more details.

Also - what are the other boats that the kids are sailing at your club? I think you mentioned 20 kids sailing 5 boats.

Are you still planning to take the F12 to Sauna Sail? Perhaps I'll see you there.

Regards,

Matthew


Cobra 570
Cobra 581
Mosquito 126
Arafura Cadet 738
#175528 - 04/21/09 06:26 AM Re: News [Re: Matthew Dawson]  
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JeffS Offline
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G'day Matthew the Arafura Cadet has been a hidden treasure, when the Tornado got axed from the Olympics I realized I was one of the cat sailors whoís kids sailed dinghyís we had 2x420ís so I cracked a wobbly sold the 420ís ordered 2xF12ís publicizing that on this forum then people e-mailed me telling me about Arrows and Arafuraís so I got some. The 20 kids are total so on any weekend there is probably only 13 or so around the club. We have 4x420's, 1x14ft Sundance, then my kids 2 Arafura's and 2 Arrows to be joined by a F12 soon. The kids are from 8 to 15 and I encourage them to mix crews and muck around but the kids take the racing deadly serious, any kids can use my spare boats. Your kids can go out solo or together on an Arafura and you can go on it with them if you want, they're an incredibly buoyant boat fast and wet in heavy weather with me on it. The Arafura has a swinging centre board near the mast that you can put shock cord on as a break away if they hit the bottom. If the kids go out solo on a light day with an onshore breeze they wont need the board down at first and I have some short rudder blades that work in about a foot of water so the kids can go and have fun. The only problem is the long boom so consider helmets. If I were to get a new sail I would get a high aspect rig for them so that it had a shorter lighter boom like an A class. We do club visits to Rivoli Bay sailing club only 100km from us and they have 2xCobra's with spin, one of them competed in our race this weekend along with a fast Mozzie. I bought all 4 cats from Kangaroo Island as they changed from cats to Lasers, rang to buy 1 boat came home with 4 but that sort of thing happens to me. I know where there's a good Arafura for sale at the moment but it depends where you are PM me if you get keen. The Arafura has flat hulls so they beach easy and stack on other cats perfectly, I put some blocks on the beams with carpet on them then put the Arafura on it. When looking at them to buy just check for little cracks around the bottom seams thatís where the tape and glue has parted and will let heaps of water in, itís easy to fix but if the hulls need lots of work I would just build new ones. In this photo you can see my 5.8 with an Arrow on it and the Arafura Cadet on it, I towed it 400km to Barmera for a camping holiday last spring. I leave them mast up at the club Arrow on the trailer Arafura on top, normal beach rollers wonít work so I made special cradles. As for Sauna sail thatís high on my list so may well see you there.

Attached Files
Stacked cats at Lake Bonney.JPG (1536 downloads)
Stacked cats at Lake Bonney
Stacked cats.JPG (2571 downloads)

Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#175539 - 04/21/09 06:52 AM Re: News [Re: JeffS]  
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 88
Matthew Dawson Offline
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Posts: 88
Thanks Jeff,

Yeah ... I am familiar with the AC - I was just interested in how you came across them. I sailed an Elwood Junior as a kid, which is similar to an AC, but without the jib. I was at the Arrow Nats in January at Rosebud, VIC and there were about 30 boats there I think. Unfortunately there were no ACs though. It's good to see these old boats still going (relatively) strong.

I have been reading the F12 forum and wondered why we need to be designing a new boat when there are already boats out there that seem to fit the bill ... if it is just to get kids into cat sailing.

It is a little early to start looking for a boat for my girls just yet. One season in the sailing school and crewing for me and they'll be good to go though I reckon.

Thanks for the photos.

Cheers,

Matthew


Cobra 570
Cobra 581
Mosquito 126
Arafura Cadet 738
#175610 - 04/21/09 03:57 PM Re: News [Re: Matthew Dawson]  
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JeffS Offline
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JeffS  Offline
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I think the F12 is still a great idea, even though the older cats fit the bill hardly any kids are sailing them. I travelled a lot last year and personally have only seen kids on my AC's. IMO the F12 thread has got people talking, thinking, acting so thats a good outcome. The F12 is really going to modernise the sport and hopefully attract kids, it also gets new cats on the water in a low price range. My kids are looking forward to building the F12's with me and to be honest thats a good enough reason. My daughters used to crew for me on my Stingray at your girls age and still remember their first pitchpole with excitement.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
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