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#165113 - 01/16/09 01:34 AM News  
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It would be nice to have some news, if I have understood the things there should be at least 12 cats under construction all around the world.
My two F12 cats are waiting for the next season and I will eventually do some small fine tuning on them. They are already the fastest 12 feet cats on the market and I donít think there are so many 14 feet carrying just a main that will be faster. smile

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#165167 - 01/16/09 03:58 PM Re: News [Re: Gato]  
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Although probably not in your 12 boat list, I'm still interested and waiting for some details before the start.

Luiz (sailing in Rio till sunday)

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#165172 - 01/16/09 05:15 PM Re: News [Re: Luiz]  

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Gato, 3 Aussie builds (including Jeff's) are being held up by me trusting the wrong supplier. I'm picking up the partially completeed kits on Monday or Tuesday to take them to an alternate cutter to hopefully have them finished (the kits not the boats) by the end of next week. Because of the delay Jeff is only going to build one so I'm now going to be building an F12 also which I'll tow around some local clubs to try and drum up some interest.

#165220 - 01/17/09 12:44 PM Re: News [Re: ]  
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I'm trusting my left hand to do the cutting grin

#165226 - 01/17/09 05:05 PM Re: News [Re: Gato]  

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you haven't met my left hand, he's a pretty dodgy character.

#165251 - 01/18/09 04:01 AM Re: News [Re: ]  
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Unfortunately in an effort to launch a pre scarfed kit, the guy Scarecrow trusted to cut it turned out to be a total tosser (no fault of Scarecrow), so we've been held up and my older daughter with her crew are now over the weight for an F12 and are now happily sailing a 14ft Arrow. With some luck we'll get sorted in time to have one F12 with jib ready in time for me to piggyback to Sauna Sail.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#165264 - 01/18/09 10:15 AM Re: News [Re: ]  
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Well, I have been doing the first ice boat sailing today but in some 4 months I will be waterborn again.
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#165277 - 01/18/09 02:26 PM Re: News [Re: Gato]  

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Jeff,

I'll try and get mine done for Sauna also, that way we can hit the regatta with a splash.

#165309 - 01/19/09 12:25 AM Re: News [Re: ]  
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That would be great, maybe RG could get one of his boats there to...

#165310 - 01/19/09 12:33 AM Re: News [Re: Gato]  

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Probably a bit pricy for a regional 2 day regatta

#165311 - 01/19/09 01:32 AM Re: News [Re: ]  
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The same goes for the Tabby if Ncik can not get somebody to build one a little bit closer.
So it seems I have to build a third cat if we want to have them all three in the same race

#165312 - 01/19/09 02:10 AM Re: News [Re: Gato]  
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Having a few of them at Sauna sail would be great exposure for them as theres a pile of adult sailors and hardly any juniors, I believe because of the inconvenience of towing multiple boats. If we turn up with them piggybacked and they are easy to rig we may be able to onsell the ones we've made and make some more before summer. I already have 2 people sailing Hobies that I have promised to show the F12. Scarecrow if you don't have a skipper for yours I will be able to provide one.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
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#165315 - 01/19/09 03:54 AM Re: News [Re: JeffS]  

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Jeff,

we'll talk closer to the time, I'm not sure if I'll need a skipper or not.

#165330 - 01/19/09 10:15 AM Re: News [Re: ]  
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That was already some news. Still it would be really intereating to here something from
AUS 011 - Vudu 3.8 HC
SIN 012 - Vudu 3.8 RB
GBR 013 - Vudu 3.8 RB
CHN 088 - Vudu 3.8 RB

#165981 - 01/24/09 12:30 PM Re: News [Re: Gato]  
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How many kids are sailing these boats already? How many want to?

#166000 - 01/24/09 05:37 PM Re: News [Re: 45degApparent]  

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The only completed boats that I'm aware of are Gato's and he's no spring chicken. He's been making the boats available to local kids to try. I get a couple of emails a week from kids who want info to show their parents to ask for a boat with a big surge leading into christmas.

#166037 - 01/25/09 10:24 AM Re: News [Re: ]  
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The kids are not the problem, they want the cat, but there are two obstacles; the parents and the fact that you have to build the boat yourself.

#166063 - 01/25/09 01:28 PM Re: News [Re: ]  
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Why am I not surprised at this outcome ?

But the best quote is by Jeff :" ... so we've been held up and my older daughter with her crew are now over the weight for an F12 ..."

Seems you guys have some fundamental design flaws in the boats and class.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#166070 - 01/25/09 02:05 PM Re: News [Re: Wouter]  
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Nope, it's just the catsailors not so much their kids that have a problem. I still hope to have a fleet of F12 cats here for the next season

Last edited by Gato; 01/25/09 02:20 PM.
#166075 - 01/25/09 02:31 PM Re: News [Re: Wouter]  
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They have never sailed a cat before and their dad has never sailed anything, still it was hard to get them of.

#166087 - 01/25/09 05:42 PM Re: News [Re: Gato]  

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The fundamental flaw here is that everyone behind this class is doing it from a volunteer basis that means there is 0 marketing budget and that work will always take second place to something that pays better.

Wouter in what year was F16 first formalised and how many boats existed at the end of the first, second, third, fourth etc years.

The problem as Gato points out is a lack of production boats this will eventually be fixed but we need to demonstrate a demand first.

#166094 - 01/25/09 10:27 PM Re: News [Re: Wouter]  
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Originally Posted by Wouter

Why am I not surprised at this outcome ?
But the best quote is by Jeff :" ... so we've been held up and my older daughter with her crew are now over the weight for an F12 ..."
Seems you guys have some fundamental design flaws in the boats and class.
Wouter


Come on Wouter try only posting when your not pissed.
I have two 11ft Arafura Cadet cats on the water at the moment which qualify as F12's they are a great novice cat that a parent and child can sail together. The F12's I will build will be a better platform for people to learn on or kids to sail. The delay in getting my F12's meant that my kids learnt to happily sail 14ft Arrow cats so they dont see the need to drop down to a 12ft cat. That may change once my first F12's on the water with its high profile rig and only 0.6m2 sail area less than a 14ft Arrow. Look back at the original posts when the whole F12 concept started, it was to introduce inexpensive easy to build, light to handle, easy to rig cats that introduces people to catamaran sailing. This project has accomplished that, any body with an old cat thats hulls are rotten can slide F12 hulls under their hardware and be sailing in a couple of weeks.


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
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Arrow 1576
#166104 - 01/26/09 02:34 AM Re: News [Re: JeffS]  
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Iím really happy that you are going to build the F12 even if you donít really need it. Still Iím ready to put some money on that it will not bee spending itís time on the beach once your kids get their hands on it. I think that even you with a lot of different cats will like it and specially itís over all weight of just 50 kgs.

#166108 - 01/26/09 03:53 AM Re: News [Re: ]  
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Quote

The fundamental flaw here is that everyone behind this class is doing it from a volunteer basis that means there is 0 marketing budget and that work will always take second place to something that pays better.



Just more excusses, mate.

How do you think we started the F16 class ? With a million dollar budget and full-time class officials ?

Yes, I had a full-time job on the side back then as well, as had all others involved in the F16 class.


Quote

Wouter in what year was F16 first formalised and how many boats existed at the end of the first, second, third, fourth etc years.


Actually, the F12 is now in its 4th year from its first appearance public scene (main forum catsailor). The F16 class by that time (it started in may 2001) had long finalized its class rules and had just launched the commercially build Blade F16 by Vectorworks Marine after the Stealth F16 had become the first commercially build boat in the class during 2002 (1 year after the start of the class). Additionally, by that time we had had several inaugural class events in Europe, USA and Australia, where we had 5 or more boats racing eachother. The total number of boats in the world by the end of 4 years was beyond 50 and from that point onwards the class accellerated growth as it had established itself as a viable alternative. 2 years later we had our first Global Challenge, the Alter Cup event (with suppied boats) and a third purpose designed commericial F16 by AHPC.

You guys have 2 more years to beat this fact sheet; if you want to keep comparing these two classes.

I'm sorry to believe that the F12 is nowhere near that point. So lets not compare these two classes with eachother. It serves no purpose.


I still believe the F12 concept is a very good one and one that will sell well when its parameters are well balanced. I just don't see the "Oceania approach" as very well thought out. I think Jeff's comment is illustrative of that. The F12's may be the best designed 12 footers on the planet, but that is only half of the situation. The design must be just right for the potential customer base and the time frame of its launch. I see the F12 failing convincingly on the "other half".


I do check on the F12 and think "Told you so" when I see all this happen. Afterall, I took alot of flak and indeed promises of great succes if only we were to follow the "Oceania approach". Excusse me for finally wanting to see these great promises by well experience designers who were so much unlike nasty old Wouter being furfilled.

I'm still waiting !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#166111 - 01/26/09 04:05 AM I still say ... [Re: Wouter]  
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I still say that the path to a succesful F12 design and class lays along :

-1- Simplified aluminium rig using prismatic standard alu tubes that slide into one another. Preferably unstayed and with a pocket luff.

-2- Standard size straight alu beams

-3- Enough volume in the hulls to carry a full sized adult or two kids.

-4- Optimized for peak performance with 12-16 years olds and women of all ages. Recreationally fun for larger adult males.

-5- Remove everything that is not strickly necessary. This means diamond wires etc.

-6- Accept a little higher minimum weight to allow for very cheap series production by relatively unskilled workers (hence the mast design under point 1)

-7- Design the craft in such a way that they can be completed by any amateur, possibly after purchasing the hulls commercially. Home building wing shape carbons masts is NOT an option.

-8- Force all designs to a very recognizable single appearence c.q. performance.

-9- WORK, WORK, WORK on getting yourself (the class) a network of volunteers and commercial builders. Present them with a well thought out single plan and drive. Wide open class rules scare the builders away, because they don't know what to expect. This leads to a delicate balancing act with regard to the class rules and lots of campaigning/promoting.


I think we all remember my ideal setup.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#166112 - 01/26/09 04:10 AM Re: News [Re: Wouter]  

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Wouter,

I have no interest in getting in a fight with you. I became involved in F12 because I want to kids sailing, not to see my name in lights. Please keep this sort of discussion for elsewhere as it doesn't do any class F16 or F12 any benefit to have arguments in their forums when these represent the class's primary public face.

There is nothing in the rules that stops your ideal boat being built. Get it on the water and show us how wrong we were.

Last edited by Scarecrow; 01/26/09 04:11 AM.
#166114 - 01/26/09 04:31 AM Re: I still say ... [Re: Wouter]  
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I agree with Scarecrow, and I would have built your design (and can still consider it)if you would have supplied me with a set of drawings to build it from, it's very hard to build something that is sailing just from words...

#166123 - 01/26/09 07:16 AM Re: I still say ... [Re: Gato]  
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I know my younger daughter will sail the F12 the only question is the bouyancy for a crew because we have a very social junior sailing here now and its not uncommon for 2 boats to stay on the beach and have 4 or 5 in a boat all laughing and carrying on. My 8yo lad will sail the F12 when he's big enough but at the moment he's about right on the Arafura in light wind and we've just had a 12yo join the club who will be sailing my other Arafura. I have a policy at the club of rigging all cats then let the kids sail what they want, they actively change crews and once the F12 is on the beach I don't think it will stay dry.
The early F16 was based on the established 4.9 Taipan's and similar which I believe are superb boats, my approach to the F12 is not commercial its just kids on cats which will be slow but sure.
Wouter at my club the F12 project is already a great success, when it started I had two 420's for kids and that was our total junior sailing now I have had 20 different kids sail our 5 cats this summer without a sexy F12 sitting on the beach so just sip on your beer and think positive thoughts.
regards


Jeff Southall
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Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#166137 - 01/26/09 08:40 AM Re: I still say ... [Re: JeffS]  
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I am just completing my rotational moulded F12, I'm sorry I can't post pictures just yet as there are some features that are covered by a confidentiality agreement at the moment. The first hulls were completed just before xmas, and I have been setting up the rest of the boat over the last few weeks.

I will be trying out a number of different mast configurations both stayed and unstayed over the next few months, with a view to having a boat ready for our cadet section to test at the beginning of the 2009 season.

Gareth

#166214 - 01/26/09 03:54 PM Re: I still say ... [Re: grob]  
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This is great news. Try to make it as simple and inexpensive as possible.

About the discussion going on, fast or slow, the F12 is starting. The first designs are relatively sophisticated and growth is not expected to be fast at this point.

Personally, I support the class and the group 100%, but still have secret hopes to see it become a strict one design. Maybe not exactly Wouter's design, but something like RGs first drawings (tripod suported self standing mast) with the latest hulls, possibly rotomolded.

Whatever becomes the winning boat, concept or set of rules, we must be all committed to support it, for the ultimate goal is to attack with this boat/concept/set of rules the market niche that nowadays is monopolized by the Optimist and Laser with the ultimate purpose to keep adult multihull fleets growing.

Please try to focus on this and other common interests instead of wasting your valuable time fighting.

All the best,
Luiz


Luiz
#166264 - 01/27/09 04:38 AM Re: I still say ... [Re: Luiz]  
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At present I have some friends working on a single skin glass fibre F12 (Tabby), itís slow because of lack of time but there is a strong intention to get it done.

#167578 - 02/08/09 05:54 AM Re: I still say ... [Re: Gato]  
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Gato I just realised that Scarecrow and I havn't explained our delay properly. I don't want to just build a boat of the plan's I could have done that easily a long time ago, Scarecrow is using me as his first customer to organise his supply line for kits. Once he has someone who will punch out the hulls and supply the sails I will build the kit and be able to assist others that want to build the boat. So in a way Scarecrow is trying to launch the first commercial F12.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#167619 - 02/08/09 02:27 PM Re: I still say ... [Re: JeffS]  

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Jeff,

I've lost you number, can you please call me.

Chris

#174027 - 04/06/09 05:03 PM Re: I still say ... [Re: ]  
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Any new news on any of the builds?

I've supplied the hull lines and basic laminate for a second Tabby to Europe.

#174060 - 04/06/09 07:46 PM Re: I still say ... [Re: ncik]  

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There are a few things happening....

I was talking to RG last week and one of his boats is reportadly beating Hobie 16s to the top mark at its local club (before being killed off the breeze).

Ncik, can you please give me a call on 0400 628 379 at some stage.

Chris

#174067 - 04/07/09 02:51 AM Re: I still say ... [Re: ]  
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I recived the sail for the first Tabby and will start to make it's own mast (foam/carbon) and I hope to have the DS and the Tabby on the startingline as the season open

#175510 - 04/21/09 03:04 AM Re: News [Re: JeffS]  
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Originally Posted by JeffS

Come on Wouter try only posting when your not pissed.
I have two 11ft Arafura Cadet cats on the water at the moment which qualify as F12's they are a great novice cat that a parent and child can sail together. The F12's I will build will be a better platform for people to learn on or kids to sail. The delay in getting my F12's meant that my kids learnt to happily sail 14ft Arrow cats so they dont see the need to drop down to a 12ft cat. That may change once my first F12's on the water with its high profile rig and only 0.6m2 sail area less than a 14ft Arrow. Look back at the original posts when the whole F12 concept started, it was to introduce inexpensive easy to build, light to handle, easy to rig cats that introduces people to catamaran sailing. This project has accomplished that, any body with an old cat thats hulls are rotten can slide F12 hulls under their hardware and be sailing in a couple of weeks.


Hi Jeff,

I have just started sailing again after a break of about 20 years. I am currently sailing an old Cobra. My two girls (9 and 7) are enjoying sailing with me and are really keen to learn themselves. I think it would be great to get them into an Arafura Cadet. Where did you get yours from? Were they second hand or did you build them? I'd be interested to know more details.

Also - what are the other boats that the kids are sailing at your club? I think you mentioned 20 kids sailing 5 boats.

Are you still planning to take the F12 to Sauna Sail? Perhaps I'll see you there.

Regards,

Matthew


Cobra 570
Cobra 581
Mosquito 126
Arafura Cadet 738
#175528 - 04/21/09 06:26 AM Re: News [Re: Matthew Dawson]  
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G'day Matthew the Arafura Cadet has been a hidden treasure, when the Tornado got axed from the Olympics I realized I was one of the cat sailors whoís kids sailed dinghyís we had 2x420ís so I cracked a wobbly sold the 420ís ordered 2xF12ís publicizing that on this forum then people e-mailed me telling me about Arrows and Arafuraís so I got some. The 20 kids are total so on any weekend there is probably only 13 or so around the club. We have 4x420's, 1x14ft Sundance, then my kids 2 Arafura's and 2 Arrows to be joined by a F12 soon. The kids are from 8 to 15 and I encourage them to mix crews and muck around but the kids take the racing deadly serious, any kids can use my spare boats. Your kids can go out solo or together on an Arafura and you can go on it with them if you want, they're an incredibly buoyant boat fast and wet in heavy weather with me on it. The Arafura has a swinging centre board near the mast that you can put shock cord on as a break away if they hit the bottom. If the kids go out solo on a light day with an onshore breeze they wont need the board down at first and I have some short rudder blades that work in about a foot of water so the kids can go and have fun. The only problem is the long boom so consider helmets. If I were to get a new sail I would get a high aspect rig for them so that it had a shorter lighter boom like an A class. We do club visits to Rivoli Bay sailing club only 100km from us and they have 2xCobra's with spin, one of them competed in our race this weekend along with a fast Mozzie. I bought all 4 cats from Kangaroo Island as they changed from cats to Lasers, rang to buy 1 boat came home with 4 but that sort of thing happens to me. I know where there's a good Arafura for sale at the moment but it depends where you are PM me if you get keen. The Arafura has flat hulls so they beach easy and stack on other cats perfectly, I put some blocks on the beams with carpet on them then put the Arafura on it. When looking at them to buy just check for little cracks around the bottom seams thatís where the tape and glue has parted and will let heaps of water in, itís easy to fix but if the hulls need lots of work I would just build new ones. In this photo you can see my 5.8 with an Arrow on it and the Arafura Cadet on it, I towed it 400km to Barmera for a camping holiday last spring. I leave them mast up at the club Arrow on the trailer Arafura on top, normal beach rollers wonít work so I made special cradles. As for Sauna sail thatís high on my list so may well see you there.

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Stacked cats at Lake Bonney
Stacked cats.JPG (2571 downloads)

Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#175539 - 04/21/09 06:52 AM Re: News [Re: JeffS]  
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Thanks Jeff,

Yeah ... I am familiar with the AC - I was just interested in how you came across them. I sailed an Elwood Junior as a kid, which is similar to an AC, but without the jib. I was at the Arrow Nats in January at Rosebud, VIC and there were about 30 boats there I think. Unfortunately there were no ACs though. It's good to see these old boats still going (relatively) strong.

I have been reading the F12 forum and wondered why we need to be designing a new boat when there are already boats out there that seem to fit the bill ... if it is just to get kids into cat sailing.

It is a little early to start looking for a boat for my girls just yet. One season in the sailing school and crewing for me and they'll be good to go though I reckon.

Thanks for the photos.

Cheers,

Matthew


Cobra 570
Cobra 581
Mosquito 126
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#175610 - 04/21/09 03:57 PM Re: News [Re: Matthew Dawson]  
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JeffS Offline
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I think the F12 is still a great idea, even though the older cats fit the bill hardly any kids are sailing them. I travelled a lot last year and personally have only seen kids on my AC's. IMO the F12 thread has got people talking, thinking, acting so thats a good outcome. The F12 is really going to modernise the sport and hopefully attract kids, it also gets new cats on the water in a low price range. My kids are looking forward to building the F12's with me and to be honest thats a good enough reason. My daughters used to crew for me on my Stingray at your girls age and still remember their first pitchpole with excitement.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
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Mosquito 404
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#175716 - 04/22/09 10:27 AM Re: News [Re: JeffS]  
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You are absolutly right, and with the DS12 on the cartop i think that your picture would be complete

#176194 - 04/27/09 02:58 AM Re: News [Re: Gato]  
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Ross Offline
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Hi all,

I have been following the progress of the development of the F12 class since I first saw an article in Multihull World in Aus last year. Firstly, congratulations to all of you across the world who are contributing to this new class. I can imagine how difficult it is to float a new class, get momentum behind it and eventually critical mass.

I have sailed various classes over the last 25 plus years including Arafura Cadet, Mosquitos, Taipans, F16's etc, and I can see a real place for an entry level junior cat class.

I have no desire to buy into the debate that has developed over the design/class, and if I thought my comments here would be taken as negative, then I would not post, as I have nothing but respect for all of you as you undertake this journey.

However, with 3 sons, and a potential customer/builder of a number of F12's in coming years, I do have some comments on the design concept.

I agree there is a need for a contempory, entry level cat, which will replace boats such as the Arafura cadet (which I loved as a kid, but that is progress). I believe it needs to be kept simple, efficient, robust, safe and cost effective.

I can't help but feel that the current rules are too broad and allow too much development scope, which may see the class stray away from the objectives as set out in the first few lines of the draft class rules. Imagine what I consider the worst case:- designers, builders and buyers with deep pockets developing all carbon boats, including platforms, masts, beams, rudder stocks, boards, booms etc. I am guessing a boat like this would be somewhere over $10K. Certainly not cost effective in my book for an entry level class, in the hands of 8+ year olds.

I imagine a simple model, that allows flexibility in hull design/construction methods, ie. ply, foam sandwich, etc. however with restrictions on rig design, beam design and material, rudder stock materials, etc. Do we really see this entry level class being a development class similar to the A Class? If so, fine, but I imagine this may reduce the possible purchaser/builder population, and may disengage the teens who are sailing these things and get pissed off when someone comes along with something newer/better/etc.

I have never lost a single $ on buying/selling boats (obviously except for maintenance/running rigging, etc)cos I have always sailed boats like mozzies, taipans, etc that I knew would hold their value year on year assuming kept in good condition.

Anyway, just my thoughts. I will continue to review all of your progress with interest and wish you all the very best for your future efforts to get the class a vibrant addition to any club and regatta.

Regards,

Ross

#176196 - 04/27/09 03:34 AM Re: News [Re: Ross]  
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A very considered and thoughtful post Ross.

I couldn't agree more - the key must be a design that is cost effective.

I am really keen to get my kids involved in sailing cats, but cost will definitely be a factor for me.

I too am following the progress of the F12 - I am really excited by the concept and am likely to be a customer/builder too.

Matthew


Cobra 570
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#176235 - 04/27/09 11:17 AM Re: News [Re: Ross]  
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After building the DS12 (ply) and the Tabby (foam/glass) and both came out just about the min. weight for a cost of about 1500 USD all included I think that the risk is not very big of somebody wasting a lot of money in carbon, still you would not need much so It would not add so much to the total cost.
The far bigger risk is that somebody is coming up with a design a ďlot fasterĒ, but isnít that what the formula class is about?
These cats where from the beginning intended to be homebuilt. A handy dad can always build a cat with his kids that will be faster than those you can buy readymade, still the price will not be higher.
Still even that is not in my opinion likely to happen. I think we will end up with 1-3 designs rotomoulded production low cost cats on the market.
If some day there is somebody thinking it worth spending 10.000 in a F12 it will just be a proof that the class has been a success and by then there will be thousands of F12 cats on the beaches around the world.



Last edited by Gato; 04/27/09 12:16 PM.
#176280 - 04/27/09 06:20 PM Re: News [Re: Gato]  
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G'day Ross,

I concur with your sentiments however I'm not sure the F12 "knows" what it is yet; kids trainer, kids racer, teen racer, adult racer/cruiser. What we do know is that there is a fair bit of interest in the class from a lot of different ppl.

For now, it is open to every one of the above groups and my opinion is that whoever likes it the most will eventually steer it towards the F12 concept, it will evolve. Over time, material issues will be resolved, but I don't believe there should be too many restrictions here; for such a small boat, material costs are far outweighed by labour.

We've also seen, over a long period of time now, that apparently conservative restrictions in materials and suppliers do little to lower the costs to the boater; eg. AUD$1100 for a laser sail is ridiculous. I would like to see competition amongst suppliers leading to lower minimum costs.

My personal vision of the F12 is as a kids trainer & racer; no adults, 2 age divisions, 1-up and 2-up depending on division. I also see a benefit to a one design, but not SMOD, rig and sail plan similar to the very successful IOM class. For a home build, the rig will be a very significant cost and complexity and one designing it will help. Not sure about one design beams yet, but from a practical point of view only, they would also be a benefit. To tell you the truth though, a set of home-built carbon beams would cost very little if done correctly. And consider longevity issues of aluminium parts vs carbon. The evidence just isn't there to argue against carbon for some parts when considering long term costs; eg. there are 10 year old carbon masts winning races in the 12' skiff class.

There is also the issue of complexity of the rules, which has been discussed previously, and I don't think it is time for the F12 to develop a set of rules as complex as say the optimist just yet. Again it is a part of the evolution of the class.

Last edited by ncik; 04/27/09 06:41 PM.
#176287 - 04/27/09 07:58 PM Re: News [Re: ncik]  
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Hi gents,

I much appreciate your comments and feedback. It's interesting to see how this class in developing and how much interest it is receiving from around the world.

To your point ncik, I agree, it appears unclear what this class is yet. There is clearly a HUGE amount of cat sailing, design and building experience involved in the development of the class, and seems to me that there may be some positive benefits in having this collective experience draw up some design and construction guidelines that steer the class in a specific direction. Ncik, I tend to agree with your vision for the class, not totally restricting design, but restricting some elements that may/may not give some designs significant advantage.

Not for a moment am I suggesting the banning of carbon. It's strength and life span over aluminium are well documented, however to your point Gato, it seems to me that you may want to prevent a platform/rig design coming along that is significantly better than the others. This in effect would render existing boats all but redundant and people would have wasted their $1500 plus, and all the hours invested. A question for those out there...... how many 5 plus year old A class cats are competitive these days? There has been quite a bit of talk about the Arafura Cadet on this thread. I had one and loved it as a kid. But I imagine there would be none of these around today to even talk about if they had been part of a development class that rendered this 30 plus year old design redundant a few years after building. I remember when the AC went from solid bridge deck to aluminium beams and tramp. Even that was enough to cause debate in an already great class.

So the seed of thought is growing in my mind, if the Formula class does mean unrestricted development, is this the right platform from which to be developing an entry level training boat? Once again food for thought.

Regardless, I and my l
kids will still be looking to get involved in this developing class when the time is right.

All power to you guys.

Ross

#176297 - 04/27/09 09:56 PM Re: News [Re: Ross]  

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Ross,

with respect to the use of carbon. Gato choose to build the masts for his two F12s out of carbon as a cost cutting measure, as it was cheaper for him to build composite masts than so source a suitable aluminium extrusion in his location. Limiting his boats to aluminium masts would have increased the cost of each boat by a few hundred dollars.

#176298 - 04/27/09 10:19 PM Re: News [Re: ]  
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Ross Offline
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Hi Scarecrow,

Interesting and good to know. Would that also be the case for a pocket sleave luff system over a round section extrusion? This is definitely a concept I was impressed with when I was originally reading about the F12 Vudu. Looks modern, simple, light (I assume) and I guess is cost effective and fast I guess, as seen on moths, sail boards, etc. Is it considered a cheap option? How would you lower the sail while on the water?

Regards,

Ross


#176304 - 04/28/09 01:28 AM Re: News [Re: Ross]  
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Gato Offline
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I may be wrong, but I have the feeling that at least the first Vudu:s have "normal" rig and sail.

#176310 - 04/28/09 03:10 AM Re: News [Re: Gato]  

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IIRC, RG reported to me the other day that they couldn't find any sail makers willing to make the pocket luff, full battern sails.

#176311 - 04/28/09 03:18 AM Re: News [Re: ]  
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Gato Offline
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Btw, any more news of the Vudu:s if I understood it right they are sailing. It would be nice with some pics.

#176314 - 04/28/09 05:14 AM Re: News [Re: Ross]  
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Wouter Offline
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Ross,

Alu mast with pocket sleeve sail is very popular in landyachting and an estimate for the costs can be derived from type of sailing.

Unstayed alu mast 5.5 mtr tall and collapsable in three pieces total cost 128.01 Euro.

Fully battened square top pocket luffed sail of 6.0 sq. mtr and pentex cost 417,22 Euro.

Shipping from France to Netherlands using DHL was 140 Euro's I beleive.

As Ncik says, round carbon tubes are relatively simple to make by a homebuilder. There is no reason why such a homebuilder couldn't make an unstayed mast from carbon this way. This setup also avoids lots of special hardware like hound fittings, halyard systems and spreaders. This saves costs and "simple = best" for a concept like F12 in my opinion. It must be the better looking and more performant laser dinghy version to the catamaran scene. Very simple, quick and easy to rig but inexpensive and performant. Making a 12 foot version of the A-cat, Tornado/F18 or Moth is not smart in my personal opinion.


Quote

How would you lower the sail while on the water?


You wouldn't. Just let it weathervane. The fact that it is fully battened prevents it from flapping about violantly. The lack of stays allows full 360 weathervaning. Actually, the is no limit to the amount of rotation a weathervaning sail can make. Added advantage is that a dummy can gybe the boat on land without mishap !

Both mast and sail for a unstayed pocket luff sail are really easy to make by homebuilding.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/28/09 05:57 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#176316 - 04/28/09 05:48 AM Re: News [Re: ]  
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

IIRC, RG reported to me the other day that they couldn't find any sail makers willing to make the pocket luff, full battern sails.



Right, scores of dinghy and landyacht classes use these and "we" can't find a sailmaker willing to do us one ?

Where do the BIC dinghies get theirs ? The class 5 and promo landyachts ?



Bloody hell !

I'll give you a leg up.

I can get you a ready-to-sail unstayed pocket sleeved rig as displayed in the picture suitable for a heavy adult for :

Complete mast (collapsable 5.70 mtr tall from alu tube) 248.66 Euro
6.60 sq. mtr modern sail , transparant pocket luff 458,36 Euro

The reefable version of that sail is sligtly more expensive at 489,13 Euro

You only need to add the boom and the rig is ready to go.

Note how this unstayed rig the heaviest available and it is used for doublehanded landyachts using 7:1 mainsheet system fitted to the middle of the boom (combined downhaul and leech tension system). Its flexibility is optimized for about 250 kgM static righting moment. Comparable to a 75 kg adult hicking of the luff hull of a F12. A typical 12 year old child of 40 kg would use the lighter mast as I quoted in my other post (128.01 Euro).

These quotes are excluding shipping but the tallest section is only 2.70 mtr long and so international shipping shouldn't be too much.

The main point being that you can't get beyond 707.02 Euro excl. taxes and shipping for the strongest modern shaped off-the-shelve pocket luff rig (mast + sail) that is ready to be fitted and used. I seriously doubt whether it would go past 1000 Euro's incl. NON-EU taxes and shipping.

It looks like this. Note that the pronounced back rake of the mast is largely the result of the mast foot being raked back by some 15 degrees on landyachts. This is done to bring the sail pressure in line with the rear wheel axles. On a boat the mast could be raked straight up and only the mast bend would move the tip back by something like a mtr under maximal sheet load. The resulting boom clearence can be kept or used to some 0.4 sq. mtr. addition cloth as allowed under provisional F12 rules. I'm convinced that I can get a custom sail ordered from these guys for a reasonable additional fee. Afterall, they also do complete custom landyacht designs.

Note that I have a slightly smaller version of this series of rig in my possesions. I got the 5.5 sq. mtr. reefable version with the 128.01 Euro mast. It is the best rig I have for my class 5 landyacht. It pumps very well in the gusts and it is a dream to sail. This is quality stuff. For F12 usage they may be optimized here and there but the off-shelve-rigs will be a very good and cheap starting point for a prototype neverteless. They'll be quite close to what you want.

Wouter

Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 04/28/09 06:07 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#176331 - 04/28/09 07:35 AM Re: News [Re: Ross]  
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Thank's for the input Ross, I like carbon I don't think it will cost much more initially but will save money over time because I can homebuild the components and repair the breakages easily. Carbon on and in the hulls will add that extra bit of strength for boats that will be lent out at club level to kids. It's great to see people designing new cats and showing their designs enabling me to build a cat that suits my area's sailing, my kids want jib and trap for crew and extra fun so why not give it.
I pick up my kit tomorrow so now I just have to find the time to build it before the Sauna Sail.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#176335 - 04/28/09 07:57 AM Re: News [Re: Wouter]  
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Wouter,

Do you know what the diameter and wall thickness of the tubes are that go to make up those two masts?

Gareth

#176388 - 04/29/09 12:45 AM Re: News [Re: JeffS]  
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Ross Offline
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Hi all,

Very much appreciate your comments and replys to my questions. I'm learning more every time I log on.

The unstayed, self supporting rig does appear to be a neat way to go.

JeffS, you are talking about a kit you are about to pick up. I admit I have not read every F12 thread, so I guess I have missed something, but who is supplying the kits, what is included, and based on what design? Is it the Vudu? Also, is the kit available for purchase, and if so, who do I contact?

I currently live in Indonesia, and while there is certainly very little off the beach sailing here, I have a big guarage and may as well be spending my spare time building one of these, particularly something that can easily break down and transport as part of our consignment where ever we end up next.

Sorry to ask stupid questions, it's purely healthy interest.

Regards,

Ross

#176391 - 04/29/09 01:51 AM Re: News [Re: Wouter]  
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Gato Offline
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Well, I ended up at about 730Ä all included ready to sail for my homemade rig.

#176392 - 04/29/09 01:54 AM Re: News [Re: Ross]  

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Ross, where are you? I delivered Jeff's DS12 kit today.

Optional kit components are:
Precut gaboon plywood (skins, frames girder etc)
Pre-made aluminium rudder stocks
Premade front beam (cut, drilled, dolphin striker fitted, anodised)
Pre-made back beam (cut, drilled, anodised).

Currently working on mast, sail and tramp options.

Last edited by Scarecrow; 04/29/09 03:22 PM.
#176393 - 04/29/09 02:29 AM Re: News [Re: ]  
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simonp Offline
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you guys are making me so jealous, I would love to try my hand at building an f12 but at 1 and 3 i don't think my boys are quite ready just yet. They think they are.

Can't wait to see yours on the water Jeff.


Simon
BLADE F16 AUS405
#176394 - 04/29/09 02:39 AM Re: News [Re: ]  
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Ross Offline
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Hi Scarecrow,

I am in Jakarta. Can you send me full details, ie. cost, full consignment size/weight.

I can't get anything here, ie. no sails, mast, fibergass or resins, so I would need to look at a kit with all components required to build. (I can get basic tools, and timber to make gigs, etc.) Maybe this is a bit of a dream at the moment, but please keep me posted as you pull together full kits.

Thanks

#176395 - 04/29/09 03:02 AM Re: News [Re: Ross]  
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Gato Offline
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Ross, I think if you look around a little bit in the local shops you can find all you need (at a very good price) to enable you to build a desent cat.

#176397 - 04/29/09 03:21 AM Re: News [Re: grob]  
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

Do you know what the diameter and wall thickness of the tubes are that go to make up those two masts?



Yes.

And a bunch of other specs as well.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/29/09 03:25 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#176401 - 04/29/09 05:32 AM Re: News [Re: Wouter]  
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Matthew Dawson Offline
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I also think the unstayed, self supporting rig is an excellent idea. Great suggestions Wouter!

Matthew


Cobra 570
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#176419 - 04/29/09 07:38 AM Re: News [Re: Ross]  
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Ross I ordered a kit so that Scarecrow could organise his suppliers for kits. While the kits heaps easier and each piece is cut out perfect, you dont really need a kit you can build the DS12 from the plans that Scarecrow supplies. I would be suprised if you cant get all the things you need to build the cat there, but you probably need the technical name for the resins so you can web search it. If you could organise freight the kit package wasn't heavy and is approx 3900mm x 450mm x 200mm. Now all I need is time to assemble it.
Your questions are not stupid anyone on the forum will happily answer you. Have you seen Gato's blog on building his DS12 in this forum, he shows how to build this cat and how it will look.
Simon I'll probably see you on Sunday for the Rum Race, I can't believe how fast you were at the Earthmovers race hopefully we'll find the marks this time.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#176481 - 04/29/09 03:28 PM Re: News [Re: ]  

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Not particularly relevant to Ross but for those building any F12 design in Aus I'm happy to supply the metal kit components. They are directly compatible with Tabby and I'm sure the Vudu could be tweeked to suit.

Ross I'm sure you can get everything locally if you look around you can find everything you need locally and save the cost of shipping.

#176514 - 04/29/09 08:11 PM Re: News [Re: ]  
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Thanks guys. Yes I have seen Gato's pictures and have been all over his web site. Excellent stuff.

Scarecrow, do you specify the techincal stuff in your plans for the DS12? Ie. cloth, resins, carbon, etc?

Cheers.

#176529 - 04/30/09 12:21 AM Re: News [Re: Ross]  

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Ross check your PMs I've just sent you a link to the plans.

basically cloth is specified (its all e-glass in the plans). When working with marine plys (we recommend gaboon) you have to use Epoxy, talk to your local supplier as to their best product for the job but I have used Gurit (SP systems) for the last 10 years without any issues.

Carbon is only required if you choose to build a mast.

#176545 - 04/30/09 05:06 AM Re: News [Re: Ross]  
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Ross, I added glass on the outside, but that is not at all needed, just wanted to get a little bit more strength against wear and tear.
If you make your mast yoy don't, need any metal fittings at all. In fact all fittings on the cat can be made in carbon (not more expensive than SS).

#176648 - 04/30/09 07:59 PM Re: News [Re: Gato]  
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Thanks guys. I have been thinking that carbon beams (strikerless front beam) and carbon mast may be the way to go. Presumably instructions on how to do this are readily available? If this can all be done at home then I don't need to worry about getting stuff fabricated.

Cheers

#176655 - 04/30/09 09:36 PM Re: News [Re: Ross]  

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Ross carbon mast details already exist. Carbon beams can be generated on request.

#176718 - 05/01/09 11:04 AM Re: News [Re: Ross]  
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Originally Posted by Ross

The unstayed, self supporting rig does appear to be a neat way to go.

JeffS, you are talking about a kit you are about to pick up. I admit I have not read every F12 thread, so I guess I have missed something, but who is supplying the kits, what is included, and based on what design? Is it the Vudu? Also, is the kit available for purchase, and if so, who do I contact?


RG is trying to gather enough people to produce a batch of rotomolded Vudus. You might want to contact him too.
I like the self standing rig with sleeved sail either, but will take the production boat anyway it comes because I believe in serial production to boost numbers.

All the best,


Luiz
#176732 - 05/01/09 11:50 AM Re: News [Re: Luiz]  
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How much for the rotomolded platform ?

And is RG still using the curved beams for the Vudu ?

Will it carry a 85 kg male ?

If so then I maybe interested just the platform. I'm not looking forward in building that myself with the resources that I have. I have no issues with the foils or rig.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#176757 - 05/01/09 05:14 PM Re: News [Re: Wouter]  
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Originally Posted by Wouter

How much for the rotomolded platform ?
And is RG still using the curved beams for the Vudu ?
Will it carry a 85 kg male ?
If so then I maybe interested just the platform. I'm not looking forward in building that myself with the resources that I have. I have no issues with the foils or rig.


Wouter,

The complete boat will cost USD 4.000,00 if 20 are ordered. Thatīs all I know.

Luiz


Luiz
#176849 - 05/03/09 05:45 AM Re: News [Re: Luiz]  
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 15
Ross Offline
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Ross  Offline
stranger

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 15
Hi Luiz,

I've shot a PM off to RG about the Rotomolded F12, as this is probably the easiest option for me, but haven't heard anything back. But I've also sourced most things I need for a DS12, except for sails and general fittings, but most of this can be obtained from Singapore easily. I guess I do what I think is quickest for me in the long run.

Cheers

#176910 - 05/04/09 01:03 AM Re: News [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 255
RetiredGeek Offline
enthusiast
RetiredGeek  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 255
NZ
Originally Posted by Wouter


How much for the rotomolded platform ?

And is RG still using the curved beams for the Vudu ?

Will it carry a 85 kg male ?

If so then I maybe interested just the platform. I'm not looking forward in building that myself with the resources that I have. I have no issues with the foils or rig.

Wouter

Hi Wouter,
will have a platform only price after the first ones are out of the moulds and the round bilge one will have straight beams.
It will however struggle a bit at 85kg as it was only designed around a max 50 kg kid.

cheers
RG

#176913 - 05/04/09 02:12 AM Re: News [Re: RetiredGeek]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered


RG sent an email to your xtra.co.nz email address. I don't know if you check it often.

#176917 - 05/04/09 02:57 AM Re: News [Re: RetiredGeek]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

Hi Wouter,
will have a platform only price after the first ones are out of the moulds and the round bilge one will have straight beams.
It will however struggle a bit at 85kg as it was only designed around a max 50 kg kid.



Thanks for the info.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#176938 - 05/04/09 07:17 AM Re: News [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Gato Offline
addict
Gato  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Finland
RG, there are rumours that the Vudu is waterborn, any pics??

#224911 - 12/04/10 07:58 AM Re: News [Re: Gato]  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Seeker Offline
addict
Seeker  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
More competition from the mono side..."The Bug" from

Laser...they too are after a share of the Optimist market.
http://www.newboats.com/videos.jsp?bctid=4560590001


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