A question about Rule 12 ...

When racing - and hunting the line ... a boat from WAY BACK came barreling into the line at the start and of course we luffed as they forced us up.

My question ... if they are not overlapped can they luff you if under the right of way rules they are clearly the give way boat?

I don't know at what point luffing someone at the line is legal when they barrel into the position from behind without an overlap.

Curious to see the answers to this post.

John Haydukovich

Well, at some point they DID become overlapped, or they would not have been able to force you up. The question is, where did they come from?

If they came from well below the line and never changed course, you're screwed. There was an overlap that you didn't see, and since they never changed course, they don't have to give you time to respond. Bob Merrick is the best person I have ever seen at this. He has an amazing ability to keep his boat going in all sorts of bad air.

If they came from behind you, ducked under you and started heading up, then they are changing course and they need to give you time and opportunity to respond. It is your responsibility to start heading up as soon as the overlap is established.

Hope this helps.

Mike

No.

Approaching from behind, they are bound by Rule 12 (same tack, not overlapped, boat clear astern shall keep clear of a boat ahead)

Once they establish an overlap to leeward, then they become the right of way boat (Rule 11) and you must keep clear - however, they are subject to Rule 16.1 (When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear).

They can't stick their nose in, then luff hard and take you out. They have to give you a chance to keep clear. If they don't give you that opportunity, then you can protest them under 16.1.

but if they didn't make contact, then the windward was given opportunity to remain clear - right?

Have you guys ever had the situation where a boat will come from astern on the start, and will be so close that if you try to luff up, your sterns will reach out and touch them? I find this particularly happens in light air starts.

is that what 16.1 is for?

bingo

Tad - Dave's right. Leeward can get flicked under 16.1.

In addition to rules 12 and 16 that others have noted, rule 17 would also apply to this situation. Since the other boat overtook you from behind and to leeward she may not sail above her proper course, which in this case is close hauled. Since before the start, she has no proper course, she may luff you head to wind. But after the starting signal, she has to bear off to close hauled.

sm

Sort of... You can't be luffed above proper course after the starting signal, but only if the overlap was established within two boats to leeward. If the leeward boat becomes overlapped three lengths to leeward, and slowly comes up (without breaking overlap), theoretically, you can be luffed higher than proper course. This would most likely apply with a mixed fleet (a H17 coming up under a H16, for example).

I agree with the others regarding coming rule 16.1. It's amazing how people like to ignore the "opportunity" part of the rule more than the timing. If you come up to a windward boat, and establish your overalap within 6 inches to leeward, and expect him to be able to turn, you're insane...

Mike

And also likely to get a crappy start to go with the smudge on your gel coat.

So ... if a leaward boat is close enough that your tiller arms hit him when you head up ... he's too close and is protestable ...

That's nice to know ... I didn't think you could be too close .... I will file that one in the memory bank !!!

Matt and Mike: US Sailing Advanced Race Management, Feb28th/March 1st @ Manasquan River Yacht Club.

HarryMurphey

More than that; as you head up, your sterns move downwind; you need to have room for the sterns to move; or for them to sail away.

Thus, if YOU are doing the luffing; it is worth counting....

"I am luffing you; 1-2-3-4-5; I have now been luffing for 5 seconds; 7-8-9-10 make that 10 seconds; you should have headeed up and (or) sheeted in by now and gone!"

Remember; they have to avoid you; given time avoiding action can be sailing forward out the way (but you as leeward boat may not want this unless you are forcing them over the line).

And as the windward boat, a defense of "I had nowhere to go" doesn't fly. You can go over the line. Best thing to do as the windward boat in a bad situation like that is take the room and opportunity offered to avoid the contact, sheet in to get away from him, and set up further down the line somewhere. Can't tell you how many times I gave up a spot on the line like that, sailed off to get a clean start, and watched the guy that had been leeward of me get screwed by some other leeward guy coming in slow to get an overlap and force him over the line. When I'm crew, I'm watching behind us for poachers.

Poaching is fun!

Let them all get up to the line and stall making the hunt more interesting!

BC

Like John said the crew is the lookout for poachers. All you have to do is make eye contact with a potential poacher and give them the nod indicating the spot is taken and will be defended.

If the gap is under you, I also find that a quick bear away to square up your sterns to the would-be-poacher is sometimes enough to ward them off too.

The eye or the finger....

Several things happen when a boat over takes another boat from astern depending upon conditions. If within two boat lengths to leeward and on the same tack, at overlap, rule 17 is turned on, which states that the leeward boat must not sail above her proper course. However, until the starting signal a proper course does not exist. Therefore, until the starting signal (Not the Start line), rule 11 is in effect, meaning the leeward boat has right of way, but then rule 16 states, if the leeward boat in changing course (any change from straight ahead), it must initially allow the other boat room to keep clear. After the starting signal, proper course is turned on and rule 11 remains in effect. But remember, Rule 14 is always in effect, so the leeward boat must avoid contact until it is clear the other boat is not keeping clear. Keeping clear in this case means that the leeward boat must allow the windward boat time and room to maneuver away. The leeward boat must not force the windward boat into contact with the starting (RC) boat. If contact is made and damage or injury occur, the leeward boat may be penalized. Section C rules (At marks and obstructions, rules 18, 19 and 20) do not apply at the starting mark. When starting, many rules come into effect and they change rapidly based upon timing and the locations of other boats including the RC start boat. All boats must remain vigilant.

How would "proper course" be determined in a distance racing situation?

Same as any other race.

The course you would sail, in the absence of other boats, to get to the next mark quickest; so if you have a plan to foot off, then as long as this is a justifiable plan, it is your proper course, BUT you have to be able to convince the protest Ctte of this.

USUALLY The Rght-Of-Way-Boat defines proper course; if ther are disagreements on the water and it is then the other boat(s) job to give-way to this proper course and the protest if they think this course is un-justifyable.

BUT remember it has to be justifiable.

So on a really long race; it might be justifyable to sail around a high pressure system. shorter course, it's got to be more local wind direction defined.