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Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: David Ingram] #171163
03/10/09 06:43 PM
03/10/09 06:43 PM
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South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
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I wish I could. Maybe those who really care could do it. I'll switch PN numbers with either one of them.......


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: David Ingram] #171167
03/10/09 06:48 PM
03/10/09 06:48 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

2001 - 65.5, it's changed every year since ending up at 64.5.

And Tim, before you get all "1 point in 7 years"! The A cat class is as old as dirt!



Humm, the F16 dropped from 67 to 63 in the same time frame.

I guess the F16 class just sees a whole lot more developement then the A's ! grin

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: Todd_Sails] #171170
03/10/09 07:02 PM
03/10/09 07:02 PM
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Wilmington,NC
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The F 16 class is rather new in the US so I think they started with a higher number and now that they are getting results the number can be adjusted to better fit the boat. The F18 number started out higher and was adjusted a lot in the first few years.

Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: David Ingram] #171181
03/10/09 08:03 PM
03/10/09 08:03 PM
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Timbo Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
The F18 number changed in the following years:

2002
2003
2004
2005
2006

The F16 number changed in:

2005
2006
2008

And the A-cat... it's the winner in this little race... it's number has changed every year from 2001 - 2008, excluding 2007 I can't find tables for 2007.

So Timbo... what was your point?


I thought I said it already, the F18 number has not changed at all since the Infusion and Capricorn and Wingmast came out. I agree with Jake here, the F18's have gotten faster since their last adjustment.

The "problem" with Portsmouth numbers, if there is one, is the F18's now have enough of a fleet so they get their own starts usually so nobody is keeping times, so no adjustments. When a F16 beats an F18, instead of saying the skipper sailed a great race, it's "Wow, that F16 has such an unfair rating, let's lower it."

I am in favor of a measurement type rating, and Texel gives the F16 the least favor of all those rating systems, so I am not trying to win a race based on a slower rating, just pointing out that the F18's have gotten faster in the last couple years, yet not adjusted their numbers. How many guys are still racing Tigers? Didn't Hobie just come out with a new F18? Why?

Last edited by Timbo; 03/10/09 08:04 PM.

Blade F16
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Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: Mugrace72] #171189
03/10/09 08:34 PM
03/10/09 08:34 PM
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Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
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Quote
My interest would be in a measurement based alternative.


OK, Wouter, time to drag out that old NMBR rating system you devised years ago. I always liked it and heard favorable comments from others who took the time to carefully consider your scheme. Didn't you say you abandoned it when Texal took a favorable turn? If you release an update we could call it NMBR-2 laugh

Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: David Parker] #171214
03/11/09 05:07 AM
03/11/09 05:07 AM
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Wouter Offline
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The short version of the story is that I did finish the NMBR system back then (2004 and jan 2005) and it still works as intended and texel did modify its system to include some components.

It isn't a big job to revive it.

However, I'm done with "pulling the car projects" so we are going to revive this system with a group of people or not at all.

With respect to some of the drawbacks named by Jake and others. It is not hard to compensate for these. I think I proposed a 5 point compensation scheme to give out dated designs some additional leeway. In the same way that Texel adjusts the ratings for boats with daggerboards and without. Simply by adding a fixed amount of handicap points to the base rating when a boat is fitted without.

I always said that it is not the task of a handicap system to be 100% accurate but just accurate enough to be considered fair. Relatively simple measurement based systems can indeed do that. But I won't go into details of why that is.

To give a point in case.

One can very closely approximate Texel (version 2004) by the following linear formula :

Texel rating = 148.922 - 2.750 * rated sail area - 6.141 * rated length + 0.132 * rated weight - 4 (if spinnaker.)

The variables "rated sail area", "rated length" and "rated weight" are not complicated to calculate. For example the "rated weight" = ready to sail boat weight + 150 (crewweight).

I'm convinced a similar lineari approximation can be had with respect to the current Texel rating version. With slighly adjusted coefficients and maybe an added measurement.


So Jake's statement that the underlying formula are complicated is not really the case. The real Texel formula is a little more complicated than the one given above but only slightly. Its behavior is not however as is depicted below, it is almost perfectly linear. I have to look it up but I believe the linear approximation is typically accurate to about 0.75%

The main point is that a measurement based system being so simple as above can still be about as good as the USPN is now or better in its predictions. Think how accurate a slightly more complicated measurement based system can be. There is still lots of leeway in the way of complexity and the results are already surprisingly accurate.

Wouter





Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 03/11/09 05:14 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: Wouter] #171216
03/11/09 05:22 AM
03/11/09 05:22 AM
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The main obstacle is however not the techniques involved in designing the NMBR system, but in getting it accepted and getting RC's to use it.

I feel that is one of the snags we hit back in 2004 and 2005.

Texel used two ratings for a while, one for big wind and one for light winds, but the RC's overhere simply refused to use this version. The only solution to the mutany of the rc's was to drop the double ratings again even though that was an important feature in getting the singlehander ratings like the A-cat right.

The fist made by the sailors was insuffient (well it was probably non-existant) to force RC's to use the improved ratings. This is one reason why some to the drawbacks of Texel still exist, not because it isn't technically possible or even practical but simply because some important group of people simply refused to cooperate.

File this under lessons learned.

Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: Wouter] #171219
03/11/09 05:44 AM
03/11/09 05:44 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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The other issue is trying to rate a spinnaker boat along side any non-spnnaker boat. Sure you can do it, but what if then in the race in question, the weather turns out to be 100% spinnaker work, or no spinnaker at all type weather.

I'm talking about distance racing, not triangles. But even with triangles, (or windward-leeward) the winds can shift during the race and that can change things quite a bit as far as how much spinnaker time you sail.


Blade F16
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Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: pgp] #171226
03/11/09 06:10 AM
03/11/09 06:10 AM
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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This is really non of my business but here goes. The RYA PY numbers are calculated the same way as the USPN. However, the RYA understand that these numbers don't reflect the true handicaps so Clubs are therefore encouraged to amend the numbers according to their individual requirements. When a Club is happy that the numbers are as fair as reasonably possible they return the new PY numbers to the RYA for information purposes.
At my Club where I have been Sailing Captain for the past three years it wouldn't matter if we used PY, SCHRS or TEXEL the F16 single or double handed, A'Class and F18 would be given the same handicaps. This probably wouldn't work at every Club but all the affected racers here much prefer the fact that first over the water wins. This is what we have become use to and enjoy, boat on boat racing.

Unfortunately, we still have to rely on a handicap rating to score the Dart 18's, F20 and Tornado.

(Pete, if you are racing windward, leeward courses I think giving a little time to the A's is fair. To be on equal terms the finish line should be half way up a beat ;))

Last edited by Mark P; 03/11/09 06:11 AM.

MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: Timbo] #171227
03/11/09 06:13 AM
03/11/09 06:13 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
When a F16 beats an F18, instead of saying the skipper sailed a great race, it's "Wow, that F16 has such an unfair rating, let's lower it."



Why is it so important for the F16 sailors to be beat teams NOT in their class? If you want a chance at beating teams in another class then join the freaking class.

And Tim we've had the discussion about the F18 number and the new boats already. Is the F16 as fast as the F18 or isn't it? Answer that question Tim!

This thread is now going in circles as they all end up doing.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: Mark P] #171228
03/11/09 06:17 AM
03/11/09 06:17 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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The consensus seems to support the numbers so I'm fine with them. Some how I'd gotten it in my head that the A Class was a "super boat".

And, I just wanted to bust Jake's hump a little. That's always fun. . . I mean the cape and all! smile


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

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Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: David Ingram] #171231
03/11/09 06:38 AM
03/11/09 06:38 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Timbo
When a F16 beats an F18, instead of saying the skipper sailed a great race, it's "Wow, that F16 has such an unfair rating, let's lower it."



Why is it so important for the F16 sailors to be beat teams NOT in their class? If you want a chance at beating teams in another class then join the freaking class.

And Tim we've had the discussion about the F18 number and the new boats already. Is the F16 as fast as the F18 or isn't it? Answer that question Tim!

This thread is now going in circles as they all end up doing.


To answer that question I would first have to ask, what are the wind/wave conditions?

In some conditions, very light air or very heavy air, I would say a well sailed F16 is very close in speed to an equally well sailed F18. Not faster, but nearly as fast, depending on sea state. Punching through waves is going to slow down a shorter, lighter, hull more than a longer hull, heavier hull. I think that is pretty much a scientifically proven fact. I'll let Wouter show you the math on that. And going downwind in big wind and waves, the shorter hull is going to stuff under those waves (slowing the boat) more often than a longer hull, again, this is simply science.

But in light air and flat water, the F16 being lighter, might have a slight edge. And in very heavy air but flat water, the F16 might be able to keep up with the F18 if the F18 crew is overpowerd more so than the F16 crew. I'm not convinced the F16 is faster or even as fast as the new rating.

Jake's point is well taken, the designers have improved the desighns, but the F18's have not adjusted their numbers down since making many changes to their hulls, masts, tramps, etc. The poor Inter 20 guys who are stuck with SMOD rules are going to have their work cut out trying to stay ahead of F18's in any open race, like an Alter Cup qualifier.

Is the Infusion/Capricorn faster than the older F18's? Answer that question. grin



Blade F16
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Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #171233
03/11/09 06:49 AM
03/11/09 06:49 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by anonymous weanie
One weanie per thread, bub. Get in line.


Too late ,lotsa weanies in this thread. The thread's even named after one of the weanie gnome leaders.

A certain bunch of F-16 guys on this forum whine like a bunch of bitchy little girls. Your class is relatively new and hasn't settled into it's number. You've got more sail area and a kite, can run in 3 different rigs and y'all are still cryin'. Get a grip. There's all the talk about how fast the F-16s are and how they are gonna spank the N-20s and F-18s elapsed, then the same bunch starts crying abot their number, pick one will ya. It's wearin' thin.
Tawd


Jeez Tawd! All I did was instigate a little rum drinking. No rum for you! mad


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

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Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: Timbo] #171234
03/11/09 06:55 AM
03/11/09 06:55 AM
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Depends on who you ask. I've moved from the Nacra F18 to the Infusion and the evidence indicates (my race results) that it has made NO difference.

How's that for black and freaking white! And I did it in 27 words Wouter, I mean Tim.

And you still haven't answered the question is the F16 as fast as the F18, you Wouter'd it to death but you didn't answer the question.

We'll I'm out of this thread, the posts are getting to long winded for my ADD.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: Timbo] #171237
03/11/09 07:10 AM
03/11/09 07:10 AM
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Wilmington,NC
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[/quote]

Is the Infusion/Capricorn faster than the older F18's? Answer that question. grin

[/quote]



The reason the F16 number is changing is they are getting results on a new class. The first number given was a guess based on what the boat would sail.

The new Infusion may be faster than the old Nacra F18 but only in some conditions. The Infusion is easier to sail down wind in big air in my opinion but the old Nacra F18 is faster in light air. The Tiger has not changed hulls or mast and still wins world championships against the Infusion and Cap. I guess it really comes down to who is driving the boat. You better not let Robbie sail the Viper any more the number may go lower.

Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: David Ingram] #171239
03/11/09 07:37 AM
03/11/09 07:37 AM
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"I would say a well sailed F16 is very close in speed to an equally well sailed F18. Not faster, but nearly as fast, depending on sea state."

Was I unclear?

The problem with any rating system is it doesn't take into account wind and sea state, type of course, length of course, etc. Just time on time. That is why the last time we had this discussion I said we should do a "measured mile" type of speed test on each boat to get some real world data. To use the data from any regatta doesn't account for all the missed shifts, blown tacks, muffed snuffs, and oh yeah, running aground...

Last edited by Timbo; 03/11/09 07:38 AM.

Blade F16
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Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: David Ingram] #171249
03/11/09 08:44 AM
03/11/09 08:44 AM
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Matt M Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram

Why is it so important for the F16 sailors to be beat teams NOT in their class? If you want a chance at beating teams in another class then join the freaking class.

And Tim we've had the discussion about the F18 number and the new boats already. Is the F16 as fast as the F18 or isn't it? Answer that question Tim!



Dave that is a pretty BS comment. The discussion about no 1 boat fitting every sailor has been beat to death way more than the crappy rating systems.

You have bandwagon jumped enough fleets, why don't you sail an F16. - Because you have it in your mind you are too big. Well, I have been on an F18 with Gina and no way would she ever agree to race on one for basically the same mental block. I personally have an issue with the weight, and there is no way you will ever convince me that strapping on a bunch of lead is a fair equalizer to make the fat guys happy. Therefore i am very happy with the F16.

As far as racing I am trying to better myself each time I go out. I am trying to beat whoever I failed to beat last time (on the water) I could give an F*** what boat they happen to be on. We finish right around a lot of the 20's and 18 around here so it is fun to race.

Getting back to the thread - ALL rating systems will always provide a source of argument. The US system is particulary bad now only becuase of the lower participation today. If there are a lot of equivalent sailors providing lots of feedback, then it should be one of the better systems.

I am not a great sailor, but if I had chosen to sail only my A and Olli did not piss of the guys in the Atlanta area, how much do you think the Portsmouth number whould have come down? No offence to anyone - but not very much if at all. I know that the times I have raced Robbie 16-18 he has been quite a bit out front, and I do not remember any of those times where it was scored on time, so these events would not be included in the number crunch. Given those results, the old number would be just about right.

I do think the boats are pretty close in performance, but each has its advantages in certain conditions. I think both are faster than the A's on the whole, but the top OZ crew and a few others will prove that wrong every time in a race. Tradewinds is one of the larger attended race; what did we have 7 18's and 5 16s. Traveling 6 hrs, or across the country for some to sail with just a few boats at an event with no organized party for me is not worth it. My view will continue to be that if the boats (not the crew) are in the ball park of performance then run them together. Throw away the handicap if it provides nothing more than a basis to create an argument. If you are using it to score unlike boats, who really is going to follow the history of when Waves beat Tornados?




Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: Timbo] #171259
03/11/09 09:38 AM
03/11/09 09:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo

I am in favor of a measurement type rating, and Texel gives the F16 the least favor of all those rating systems, so I am not trying to win a race based on a slower rating, just pointing out that the F18's have gotten faster in the last couple years, yet not adjusted their numbers. How many guys are still racing Tigers? Didn't Hobie just come out with a new F18? Why?


So Tim, How many times in the last five years has the F18 rating changed according to Texel? I'll answer that. NONE. So the boats getting faster and the rating isn't changing. Oh the horror.

Fact is all of the systems have problems. Measurement systems in my opinion are a bigger problem because of many factors. The builder can build a boat that is a rule beater. It's not that hard. Take a look at Monohull classes as a case in point of boats that built to a rating system. Ask them how well that worked for them? It didn't. It became an arms race for designers and a big money drain for boat owners.

The other bigger problem with measurement systems is that they don't take windspeed into account. A Cat vs F18 in 5 knots vs 15 knots. I know there is a huge difference in the speed of these boats in different wind conditions.

Fact is I like the PN system even with all it's flaws it is much better than a measurement system. We can use the Measurement systems for guidence when setting up initial numbers for like boats and then use the PN system to adjust as time goes on.

A Cats have a gift number because nobody ever sails against them in open fleets. If they do the scores probably aren't turned in. However if they never sail against other boats in open fleets is the number really a problem?


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: Matt M] #171260
03/11/09 09:39 AM
03/11/09 09:39 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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When I started this thread the idea was to have some fun; a little friendly banter between Jake and myself. But, the question was straight forward; do the handicap numbers reflect the difference between A class and F16, accurately. I think the answer, within reason, is yes.


Last edited by pgp; 03/11/09 09:39 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

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Re: Where's Jake!? [Re: Matt M] #171261
03/11/09 09:40 AM
03/11/09 09:40 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
Tradewinds is one of the larger attended race; what did we have 7 18's and 5 16s. Traveling 6 hrs, or across the country for some to sail with just a few boats at an event with no organized party for me is not worth it. My view will continue to be that if the boats (not the crew) are in the ball park of performance then run them together


Ah... a level rated class... (See mystere 6.0 and Nacra 6.0 and Tornado classic... and the Hobie 20 , P19MX and Nacra 5.8 NA)

These boats were popular before the Formula class model. Dont repeat their mistakes. The level racing was sort of going but the owners believed that IF they continued to race in one design classes of 4 to 5 boats... the world would just come around and get their flavor of boat and soon there would be 10 boats on the line.. We never bought into the notion of a level rated class.....All but the Hobie 20 are in the dead boat society.

Tradewinds... 7 18's and 5 16s..... Nobody gets to the magic number of 10 boats where the fast guys are racing each other... the mid fleet guys have 3 or 4 competitors and the back of the pack is on the steep part of the learning curve.

We have seen this play before.... TWICE...
If a one design fleet actually forms... it will take care of itself. They should remember to not leave out the other racers in your area... they might not come back.

Level racing and scoring with a measurment handicap rating system are the solutions to the long term problem of a small number of racers.

Oh... and the C.R,A,P fleet has the right order of priorities.. the Racing comes before the Partying.... get both right and you have a world class event.

Best US example is probably the Syracuse Madcatter... not surprisngly... they have been offering C.R,A,P for years and years. grin

Think about it... The entire North East from Maryland north, shifts their schedule so that the sailors can make the trip to SYRACUSE.... in MAY...where it's been known to SNOW on the regatta... BUT...Good Racing.... a large amount of RUM, .. and a commitment to party makes the event.
If your regatta can overcome SNOW.... you must have a good plan working! kudo's to the C.R.A,P founders!

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 03/11/09 09:49 AM.

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