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Equal performance to F18's or not? #1824
08/20/01 04:06 PM
08/20/01 04:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 67
Netherlands
geert Offline OP
journeyman
geert  Offline OP
journeyman

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 67
Netherlands
Wouter, I just checked the Texel rating for a certain f16HP configuration, and it appeared that it was 2 points faster than a F18 class,
<br>Otherwise, if we would have a rating for the F16HP, it would be 101!
<br>
<br>I think the main difference is in the assumption of the “rated weight”; under Texel Rating are weighed without the weight of the spinnaker.
<br>
<br>
<br>For Group 3 : I used the following input:
<br>
<br>Rated weight: 100 kg –6kg (for spi) =94kg
<br>+crew weight 150 kg (standard for this length)=244 kg total
<br>Rated length 5m, Rated mainsail area 13m^2, Rated jib area 3,75 sq.m.
<br>3 points deduction for the spi.
<br>This gives a rating of 100.73
<br>
<br>I checked it with the original TR spreadsheet, but also with your calculator.
<br>
<br>So, if we want to be equal to the F18’s, under the current rules, I guess something has to be changed:
<br>Possibility’s:
<br>
<br>a) Leave the rating to 101, and forget the F18’s
<br>b) Make the boat smaller (bad idea)
<br>c) Reduce the jib from 3,75 to 3,01 sq.m.
<br>d) Increase the minimum weight to 103kg ex spi, or 107 with spi.
<br>
<br>Wouter, If you could check this, it would be nice. If this is true I would vote for option d and second choice option a.
<br>
<br>Another question, I also saw that maybe the hardcore 16 (=hurricane 500) could be grandfathered, but this boat has no daggerboards, and these are required by your proposal.
<br>What is the reason to require dagger/centreboards?? My idea is to delete this requirement.
<br>(Btw, my Hurricane 500 is for sale now, if you know anyone for a “planing” cat…)
<br>
<br>Geert
<br><br><br>

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Equal to F18 ? YES, in all configs ? NO [Re: geert] #1825
08/20/01 04:40 PM
08/20/01 04:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
You have calculated thing correctly Geert. Indeed the heavy crewweight groups use a sail configuration that if it were used by a lighter 150 kg's crew would push the rating to somewhere around 101. However this system of weight equalisation will only be used much later when the class is self supporting.
<br>
<br>In the start up phase F16HP will use :
<br>
<br>Rated main 13 sq.mtr.
<br>Rated jib 3,1 sq.mtr.
<br>Genaker 17,5 sq.mtr.
<br>weight 100 including genaker so 95 kg's without
<br>
<br>I used 5 kg's for that that amount is deducted from the F18's in the Texel tables with their longer aluminium genaker poles and their bigger genakersails. F16HP will most likely have shorter carbon poles.
<br>
<br>On your option, We go for both. All foundation and grandfathered boats are on that weight anyway. Later on when the first true F16HP's are being sold than their owners run with the strtup configuration and thus garantee F18 equality. Even later than that and when the weight equalisation system is implemented than crews must decide for them selfs in which configuration they want to run in handicap races. Small rig and F18 equality or big rig and leave the F18 equality. But this is only for much later.
<br>
<br>So this is a growth path which always keeps the F18 equality open to all crews at all times. The F18 equality configuration will always be available for it is part of the weight equalisation system and this setup will be most sold anyway for I don't really believe that much 175 kg's crews will buy a F16HP despite the fact wether it is faster or not. Big boys always want even bigger toys.
<br>
<br>Does this answer your TR questions ?
<br>
<br>On the hardcore 16 / hurricane 500 :
<br>
<br>The rule is there to make sure that application of the texel calcultation system was accurate to a high degree. Skegs receive a "rule of thumb" three points deduction. And the skegs boats will be covered in the normal F16 when ever that gets of the ground. It was also a HP garantee for I don't really believe that skegs boats are up to speed to a properly designed daggerboard catamaran.
<br>
<br>But your right, the foundation for this rule is slowly eroding.
<br>
<br>Okay, Its time for another poll I think.
<br>
<br>Wouter
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>

Attached Files
1793- (47 downloads)

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Another POLL guys, skegs in or out of rules [Re: geert] #1826
08/20/01 04:43 PM
08/20/01 04:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Currently the all non daggerboard boats can't become a F16HP catamaran.
<br>
<br> <br><br>

Attached Files
1794- (55 downloads)

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Another POLL guys, skegs in or out of rules [Re: Wouter] #1827
08/21/01 02:40 AM
08/21/01 02:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 183
john p Offline
member
john p  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 183
I dont think it matters if we allow skeg boats in but no allowance should be made for them in the rule, that is as long as they fit the min weight, max sail sizes they can race, there is a danger here that we compromise the formula to allow any current 5.00 m boats to dictate where we go in future.
<br>
<br>I believe we are starting to get bogged down with minor details<br><br>


John Pierce

[email]stealthmarine@btinternet.com
/email]
Absolutely NO extra allowance for having skegs, .. [Re: john p] #1828
08/21/01 04:31 AM
08/21/01 04:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Absolutely NO extra allowance anywhere for having skegs, they must fit the same rules as the boarded F16HP's. If they want to be slower by not having boards than that's their problem.
<br>
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

Attached Files
1816- (48 downloads)

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Absolutely NO extra allowance for having skegs, .. [Re: Wouter] #1829
08/21/01 06:38 AM
08/21/01 06:38 AM

A
Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Hi guys ,i was looking for a new class of cat to play with .
<br>but i have to say that the f 18 is a bit restrictive in its rules.
<br>I have my self an hydra cat(anyone heard of them?) and i think is a good base for me to start in that class.
<br>I am my self a boat builder which mean that i can easly built my self new perfomance hulls!
<br>Finally to the point i wanted to make ,used the grandfather rules (no special rules for skegs) which mean that people can slowly update theyre boat will using parts of theyre old boat.
<br>Maybe after a season or two you will have a performance boat up to speed with out spending a fortune.
<br>I will make new hulls ,then beams,mast,ect.and swap some of the good gear i already have .
<br> You want to get as many people in a new classwith some current boat nobody want to buy a totaly new boat if they already have one .
<br>Sure keep the class progressive to keep it exiting!
<br>Fabrice,Western Australia.<br><br>

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1817- (41 downloads)
I assume you have a Hydra 16 cat ? #1830
08/21/01 07:02 AM
08/21/01 07:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
I had dealings with two of these Hydra 16's; I repaired them but eventually never sailed them myself. If you do have a Hydra 16 consider your self in the F16HP. That platform is fully compliant all be it relatively slow. First thing you want to do is get the weight down which means new hulls for these are quite heavy.
<br>
<br>You do mean the F18 class in your comment do you ? Not the F16HP class ?
<br>
<br>Personally I thought the Hydra to be respectfully fast for a 16 footer when compared to a Prindle 16. I'm sure you can get alot of input from the other guys when you do your upgrades.
<br>
<br>With respect to grandfather rules: You are clear as long as you don't violate the max size or lengths rules and don't violate the jib size rule for grandfathered boats.
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

Attached Files
1818- (45 downloads)

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: I assume you have a Hydra 16 cat ? [Re: Wouter] #1831
08/21/01 11:59 PM
08/21/01 11:59 PM

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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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A



Hi Wouter,
<br>The f 18 class rules are to restrictive!
<br>This why i think a lot of people are keen to get involved in the F16HP.
<br>Beach cat need a class which let you play around a bit such as moth or 14ft.skiff,o.k the A class is fairly free and the C class is out of most peoples pocket.
<br>To have a class where you can be as well 2 up is good,so you can split the cost (or take your partner out!)
<br>I could see that you base a good parts of the rules on the 18th. but it is a good idea to looks at others ones as well to take good idea.
<br>Finally, yes the hydra is fairly fast but it is build with old technologie,strong but way to heavy.
<br>The general shapes are as well"old school".
<br>I am looking forward to the futur of the class.
<br>Fabrice.<br><br>

Re: I assume you have a Hydra 16 cat ? #1832
08/22/01 04:10 AM
08/22/01 04:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Hello Fabrice,
<br>
<br>>>The f 18 class rules are to restrictive!
<br>This why i think a lot of people are keen to get involved in the F16HP.
<br>
<br>Yes, I get interested mails from time to time.
<br>
<br>>>To have a class where you can be as well 2 up is good,so you can split the cost (or take your partner out!)
<br>I could see that you base a good parts of the rules on the 18th. but it is a good idea to looks at others ones as well to take good idea.
<br>
<br>Actually we do. And as you can see we have incorporated several new aspects like rated sailarea etc.
<br>
<br>>>Finally, yes the hydra is fairly fast but it is build with old technologie,strong but way to heavy.
<br>
<br>A few year back I looked at the possibility to fit the Hydra hardware on two timber Taipan hulls,maybe that is an option for you ?
<br>
<br>>>I am looking forward to the futur of the class.
<br>
<br>
<br>And so are we !!
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

Attached Files
1848- (57 downloads)

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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