| Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#186977 08/04/09 04:59 PM 08/04/09 04:59 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 70 ButchG
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 70 | Welcome to the "Giant Killer" From experience....don't ask how I know.... Sqare tops are the way to go, BUT reenforce your hulls. Install an internal bulkhead just forward of the FWD crossbeam, will help with the stress loads from the increase in dynamic lift. Go with the F18 or N20 Spin. The Tornado Spin is waaaay to big. This is MY opinion....YMMV
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
ButchG Prindle 19 w/Spi | | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: ButchG]
#186995 08/04/09 06:43 PM 08/04/09 06:43 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC Tornado
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC | Go with the F18 or N20 Spin. The Tornado Spin is waaaay to big. This is MY opinion....YMMV The T spin is not much different than the I20...infact I believe it's flatter and likely smaller overall in square footage. The I20 rig is 31 ft compared to the puny ~29 ft T rig.
Mike Dobbs Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: Tornado]
#186996 08/04/09 06:45 PM 08/04/09 06:45 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC Tornado
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veteran
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC | Googled it:
N20 Spin: 25 m2 Tornado Spin: 25 m2
Mike Dobbs Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: Tornado]
#187001 08/04/09 07:20 PM 08/04/09 07:20 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Do a search on here for P-19 MX , and look at that mod. It's definitely the way to go.You can have your pinhead modified to a MX square top if you don't want to buy a new one. I had the MX rig with a 475 sq ft chute and it was excellent in light air and good on up the scale. I would say GO with a newer cut Tornado kite over an I/N 20 kite. They are flatter and faster.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#187018 08/04/09 10:12 PM 08/04/09 10:12 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 70 ButchG
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 70 | TurboCat They should be just far FWD enough to clear the mounting plates for the forward cross beam thru bolts. Also make sure the bulkhead has a drain cut out at the bottom to let any water drain. This does two things, it reenforces the cross beam stress area as well as stiffening the hulls for less "walking" when cutting waves. This (I think) was done on the P19's made after 90 or 91. I know there is an aft bulkhead on boats made after 90. But I am not sure about the FWD ones. I had mine done after watching stress fractures appear on two P19's in my area that went to an MX rig. Mr. Dobbs is correct...and I stand corrected. The spin I got was a tornado spin for a T sailor made by Smythe. BUT, it turns out it was a special order oversize kite...which I am having cut down for controllability. A square top main, with a standard size jib and a 24 to 26 square meter spin will bring your D-PN to 64 and change. Sailed properly (which I am still learning to do) it will wax N20's....seen it done
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
ButchG Prindle 19 w/Spi | | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#187021 08/04/09 10:23 PM 08/04/09 10:23 PM | DougSnell
Unregistered
| DougSnell
Unregistered | Teddy:
There is a whole chapter in "Catamaran Racing for the 90"s" on the Prindle 19 by Randy Smyth. Won't help you on the spinnaker part, but should with setting up rest of boat.
Doug | | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: ]
#187024 08/05/09 12:14 AM 08/05/09 12:14 AM | andrewscott
Unregistered
| andrewscott
Unregistered | if i recall correctly, Tornado masts are 31' i sail a 5.5 with a 30' mast. i started with a H Tiger spin.. it fit ok but my pole was pretty high.
I now fly a T spin and my pole sits a little low and i have an inch of downward pre-bend in the pole.. and my spin luff is JUST barely tight enough..
I doubt you could rig it on an 29' stick.
I have sailed the P19,.. it was great.. i am sure you will enjoy it when you get it out. | | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#187038 08/05/09 07:07 AM 08/05/09 07:07 AM |
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 264 Long Island, NY gregP19
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 264 Long Island, NY | The MX package is definately the way to go. Glaser sails has a very good guide for rig tuning and sail adjustment. It's a fast and forgiving boat. I didn't realize how resistant it was to pitchpoling until I sold it and bought a Blade. I never used a spin on it but there's a lot of spaghetti on it with the barber hauler, 4-way jib lead adjustment etc... The newer style rudders are much better.
G Gove
Blade #728
Long Island, New Yawk
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: HMurphey]
#187050 08/05/09 10:14 AM 08/05/09 10:14 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | as I stood there I could just visualize the beach full of cats and the anchorage full of boats after the NASS Race ... That beach still covered in pea-gravel and oyster shells? I'd pull my laser up on that beach no problem, I'd cringe when pulling the 20 up on it | | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: ]
#187057 08/05/09 11:20 AM 08/05/09 11:20 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC Tornado
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Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC | if i recall correctly, Tornado masts are 31' i sail a 5.5 with a 30' mast. i started with a H Tiger spin.. it fit ok but my pole was pretty high.
I now fly a T spin and my pole sits a little low and i have an inch of downward pre-bend in the pole.. and my spin luff is JUST barely tight enough..
I doubt you could rig it on an 29' stick.
I have sailed the P19,.. it was great.. i am sure you will enjoy it when you get it out. Tornado stick is under 30'...29 and change. The max luff length on the spin is also a factor of where the halyard block sits alone the mast relative to the tack block on the pole, the pole length also contributes (4 meters from tack block to front of beam is the limit) and finally mast rake.
Mike Dobbs Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#187058 08/05/09 11:31 AM 08/05/09 11:31 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC Tornado
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC | Ok just went outside to take a pic and my shop light is burnt out so no pic yet. So is a F18 chute too small? I keep hearing that F18's can carry a chute a lot higher than a N20. Is this simply the cut of the chute or the size? I am very interested in making this a fast boat so a chute is a must. The F18 chute is smaller and flatter...so it will perform better sailing closer to the wind. This can make it fast in races like hte Tybee where you're broad reaching all day long. But, on proper windward/leeward courses, the N20 is faster at deeper angles, and the Tornado faster still. Though the T spin is not cut deep like the old cut of the N20. I think the superior downwind (& up) performance of the T comes mainly from the extra beam. The P19 is a mini Tornado...hull shape & bow design are nearly identical to the T. Rigging is straight off the the classic T. Even has centerboards like the T, though they appear to be even less capable then the relatively poor performing blades of the T. I once hopped aboard a P19 for a short sail off the beach with it's new owner. I was impress with how similar it felt to the T. Within a few minutes we were the fastest boat moving that day, passing all comers including a 20 ft Mystere and several Hobies and even two rather beat up/delapidated old Tornado's.
Mike Dobbs Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: ferminj]
#187072 08/05/09 02:03 PM 08/05/09 02:03 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,203 uk TEAMVMG
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Posts: 1,203 uk | How did you get the deck off?. A thin chisel or paint scrapper, and a hammer! Be ready to take a mold off of the other hull's deck if you wreck this one getting it off
Paul
teamvmg.weebly.com
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#187081 08/05/09 02:42 PM 08/05/09 02:42 PM |
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 1,403 Ventucky Red
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Posts: 1,403 | VMG is correct. I used a Putty knife with a thin blade. I tried several tools and the thin putty knife worked the best for me. I started at the front and worked my way backwards. It came off pretty well and didnt get too messed up. You can order new decks from Performance for $98 each. I ordered new ones rather than making my own since i dont know alot about glass. After i reinforce the hulls im thinking of smoothing the bows. My 5.2 has had the bow decks filled and its stiffer than stock and looks great! I am still trying to decide if i want to go this direction though because once they are filled and smoothed future repairs are much harder since you cant just remove the deck and order a new one. TAKE PIXS. And, is that $98 for a set or just one? | | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: Tornado]
#187082 08/05/09 03:06 PM 08/05/09 03:06 PM | andrewscott
Unregistered
| andrewscott
Unregistered | [quote=andrewscott] Tornado stick is under 30'...29 and change. wow... we have a few mystere6.0's with t masts and i was told they are 31... odd | | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: ]
#187084 08/05/09 03:11 PM 08/05/09 03:11 PM |
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 67 Daytona Beach Jeff_Bowers
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 67 Daytona Beach | According to Tornado.org waterline to top of mast max is 9800mm or 32.15 feet. What does the typical tornado measure from waterline to mast base?
Jeff Bowers Mystere 6.0(sometimes XL)
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: Ventucky Red]
#187091 08/05/09 03:51 PM 08/05/09 03:51 PM |
Joined: May 2007 Posts: 149 TurboCat OP
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OP
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 149 | VMG is correct. I used a Putty knife with a thin blade. I tried several tools and the thin putty knife worked the best for me. I started at the front and worked my way backwards. It came off pretty well and didnt get too messed up. You can order new decks from Performance for $98 each. I ordered new ones rather than making my own since i dont know alot about glass. After i reinforce the hulls im thinking of smoothing the bows. My 5.2 has had the bow decks filled and its stiffer than stock and looks great! I am still trying to decide if i want to go this direction though because once they are filled and smoothed future repairs are much harder since you cant just remove the deck and order a new one. TAKE PIXS. And, is that $98 for a set or just one? That is PER side. $98 for each deck | | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: ferminj]
#187111 08/05/09 05:22 PM 08/05/09 05:22 PM |
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 1,403 Ventucky Red
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Posts: 1,403 | The decks am assuming are three part?. Forward of the front beam, center section and the little square portion aft of the rear beam. For $98 I think its a good price. I am also guessing theres a lip or surface where you can lay the new deck and epoxy to the hull. I would hate to think he is talking the front only? They probably have to make them special for this order.
Last edited by johnes; 08/05/09 05:23 PM.
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#187121 08/05/09 06:51 PM 08/05/09 06:51 PM |
Joined: May 2006 Posts: 1,383 Kingston SE South Australia JeffS
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Posts: 1,383 Kingston SE South Australia | I made the under deck support on my Stingray by putting 3 inch strips of divinacell foam inside the hulls just under the lip. I cut them longer than the gap so they flexed up to match the deck then put a bit of tape on with resin as I put the deck on. I also added another layer of divinacell foam under the decks. Since you are doing a special order have you considered asking them to do a double layer of foam or layer of carbon underneath the decks? The lips are firm enough, keep an eye on the weight your adding. regards
Last edited by JeffS; 08/05/09 06:54 PM.
Jeff Southall Current boats Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider Nacra 18 Square Arrow 1576
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#187123 08/05/09 06:59 PM 08/05/09 06:59 PM |
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 1,403 Ventucky Red
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403 | So my question is should the boat be braced like the front between the rest of the bulkheads? I would assume not since it wasnt designed that way but i want this boat to last me a long time so my ears are open. I dont want to take any shortcuts and want to do it right, do it once, and be done with it. I have another boat to sail so this project will not be rushed. Give me your opinions and let me know what u think.
I have been on other prindles that have flexy decks so i intend to add some bracing of some sort to support the deck more than it is now. The decks are held on by the edge only and seem to flex when stepped on. I would rather the decks feel solid and firm with little to no flex. Something else to think about, and maybe I didn't catch this earlier, and that is put in some tangs for you spinnaker bridals similar to what is being used on the Inter boats. | | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#187147 08/05/09 10:54 PM 08/05/09 10:54 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC Tornado
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Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC | I have been on other prindles that have flexy decks so i intend to add some bracing of some sort to support the deck more than it is now. The decks are held on by the edge only and seem to flex when stepped on. I would rather the decks feel solid and firm with little to no flex.
Check out the photo section on the Tornadocat Yahoo forum...there's a nutty Aussie rebuilding his glass T boat in his living room. He's added lots of reinforcing including deck frames and gunwale stringers. TornadoCat Forum Photo Gallery
Mike Dobbs Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: HMurphey]
#187181 08/06/09 09:28 AM 08/06/09 09:28 AM | andrewscott
Unregistered
| andrewscott
Unregistered | Hi TurboCat,
I'm not very good w/ computers, so I don't know how to "link" ..... Harry Harry you can just paste (or type) the link in here with your copy.. www.msnbc.com
Last edited by andrewscott; 08/06/09 09:29 AM.
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: ]
#187184 08/06/09 09:50 AM 08/06/09 09:50 AM |
Joined: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,658 Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus... catman
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Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,658 Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus... | Not sure where the 29' measure comes from on the T mast. I measure from the top to the bottom of the mast section (not including the base) of a marstrom untapered aluminum section, 30'- 10 3/4". Now the luff of the sail may be around 29' but mast is about 31'.
The T chute and the N-20 chute may be the same area but the N-20 is a class sail built by one manufacturer. The T sail can be made flat or full and by anyone as long as it measures in.
Have Fun
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: catman]
#187185 08/06/09 10:10 AM 08/06/09 10:10 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC Tornado
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Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC | I stand corrected. For the carbon T, class rules state: Mast Length - - Upper point height - 9294 mm = 30.49' Note this refers to the upper measurement band max height (head of sail cannot be above this line), not the overall length of the mast. I think I was recalling the dimension between the upper & lower measurement bands, which is 8915mm or 29.25'. Not sure where the 29' measure comes from on the T mast. I measure from the top to the bottom of the mast section (not including the base) of a marstrom untapered aluminum section, 30'- 10 3/4". Now the luff of the sail may be around 29' but mast is about 31'.
The T chute and the N-20 chute may be the same area but the N-20 is a class sail built by one manufacturer. The T sail can be made flat or full and by anyone as long as it measures in.
Last edited by Tornado; 08/06/09 10:18 AM.
Mike Dobbs Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#187195 08/06/09 11:29 AM 08/06/09 11:29 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,203 uk TEAMVMG
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Posts: 1,203 uk | Use epoxy but tell anyone that wants to know thats its polyester, they may start waving some ancient class rule at you if you race it!
Paul
teamvmg.weebly.com
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#187240 08/06/09 04:35 PM 08/06/09 04:35 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Which size jib do you plan to use?
The MX jib was a solution for down wind sailing in sloop mode configuration... If you plan to use the spin for down wind sailing... then... no need for the oversized jib. (it actually would hurt you) You also get to dump the barberhauler system.
Maximizing the jib for upwind sailing means you will go with a higher aspect jib which allows you to put self tacking hardware on the front beam and clean the tramp up considerably.
If you are keeping the standard jib... then you can consider sheeting to a couple of points on the tramp.
if you plan to use the mx or standard jib and replace the inboard sheeting system with grommets... Make sure you upgrade the tramp material to handle the loads and have a means to really tighten it up. The Aussies used a really thick tramp mesh and were able to really tighten the tramp up from one side and the rear without pulling it out of the boat on the Tornado. If you don't get the tramp almost rigid... energy is lost from the jib stretching the tramp on each puff.
Finally, you should consider your sheeting point for the spin on the boat. It will be determined by the spin cut and luff length. Possibilities include the shroud attachment point. the existing jib track or the tramp lacings.
Reinforcing the front cross beam is very important. The shape and the size of the beams on modern spin boats are much bigger then the P19 section. Big beams work to keep the boat stiff. You might consider a new third party front beam since you have the decks off already. A carbon tube from Australia is remarkably cheap (i am told) and could solve your problem.
Note the comment about finding room to attach a spin pole end fitting on the front beam.
Note.. the buoyancy of the P19 bows is not great and so keeping weight out of the nose is important.... not having to go with a nacra type bow foil is important.
Finally... every P19 I have sailed had these cracs in the deck in front of the dagger board wells. Everyone reports that this fix is a pain in the butt. Take a look at this spot.
Lot of work ahead... glad you enjoy it!
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#187245 08/06/09 05:36 PM 08/06/09 05:36 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Mark, I dont have the cracks in front of the dagger wells. All is well there. I am considering the standard jib for now in the beginning. I may actually wait to install the spin and just get used to the way the boat feels and handles at first. However any mods that need to be done for the spin will be done now so i dont have to do anything twice.
Yep... it's all about the master plan. Adding the full subdeck will help the fiberglass with the spin.
Harry's reinforcement of the cross beam will stop it from breaking but won't help the structural problem of the bows pinching in.... He used the bow foil for that issue... tradeoff weight on the nose, cost and hindering the spin pole location.
I would decide on your spin pole and spin. The higher you carry the spin pole... the less load you have on pinching the bows. but with a fixed luff length of the spin you obtain... you have to go higher and higher on the mast for the spin bale. The Tornado chute fits on the Prindle with a long pole... The F18 chute might be a better choice. I thought the T chute was a bit too much for the boat.... with out the T's beam... you really only had one gear down wind on the 19 which was a little deep.
At some point the costs could push you to a new boat or a new to you modern spin design.
I like the idea of a carbon tube but that does'nt sound cheap. Do you have any info on these tubes? I do have a extra set of crossbars if that helps? I read earlier that Hmurphy used a spare cross bar cut into pieces inside his existing beams.
No info.. Our local A cat builder speced some tubes recently and commented that they were surprisingly affordable.... The right beam plus a dolphin striker solve your bow foil issue.
There is a local guy that has his jib sheeted to the tramp and im supposed to be getting pictures of his set-up.
You can put some reinforcement patches on a standard tramp and put the grommet there and it will work just fine.... How well. (speed and performance tradeoffs) are the issue
just cause it looks like what the tornado is doing... does not make it equivalent.
Also... keeping the standard jib means that you will be able to have some vision to leeward of you... the deck sweeper mx jib... really left a huge hole... tough situation if you want to race buoys'.
Last edited by Mark Schneider; 08/06/09 11:06 PM. Reason: added some points
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#202194 02/04/10 08:50 PM 02/04/10 08:50 PM |
Joined: May 2007 Posts: 149 TurboCat OP
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Posts: 149 | I cant believe its been 6 months already! Ive been slacking off big time. In August i bought a Yamaha R1 (sportbike) and have been riding it as much as possible. The last post on this thread was right about the time i got the bike....Funny how that works. Back to business! Last time i posted i think the decks were still n the way. I received the decks from Nacra and was a bit disappointed. When i opened the long cardboard boxes i found the ends of the decks were a bit crooked. The packing job was not great by any means. Now lets talk about the tubes/reinforcement that Nacra said they would add. I am fine with the overall design and think that they are better than the old style. When i removed the decks from the box i pulled out 4 pieces. The reinforcement pieces had completely fallen off one of the decks. Glad that didnt happen in the hull. So at this stage of the game im wondering if i should leave them as they are or revise the design? If i leave them how they are now i will have to slightly notch the bulkheads so they sit flush. I was thinking about removing the tubes from the other deck too. I could notch the bulkheads and resin and glass them in nice and sturdy if they were off the decks. When installing the decks i can lay resin on the original lip and the new tube at the same time and glue them down. I think they may make a bunch of noise in the hull if i dont glue the tube to the bulkheads. I have to notch the bulkheads either way to fit the tubes so i just figured i may get a stronger bond this way. What do yall think? I have all the materials and am ready to start work asap. I actually sanded on the boat for a while earlier trying to get all the resin and left over glass off the inner lip of the hull. 3 or 4 more hours of tedious sanding on the inner lip and i should be ready to start the next step. | | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#202212 02/04/10 11:24 PM 02/04/10 11:24 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 22 New Jersey Bob_Fraser
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 22 New Jersey | P19s need reinforcement for use with a spinnaker to keep the bows from pinching. I had a couple of them the last of which was very tricked out. Unfortunately, I didn't make any structural improvements. One day sailing to weather the hull snapped in half at the cross beam. Here's a picture taken earlier on that fateful sail.
[img]http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?pid=30623458&id=1285887495[/img]
I have the Smyth Pentex main with foam battens in excellent condition if you are interested.
Last edited by Bob_Fraser; 02/04/10 11:32 PM.
Bob Fraser H20
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: ferminj]
#204040 02/21/10 06:51 PM 02/21/10 06:51 PM |
Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 678 Palm Beach County TheManShed
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Posts: 678 Palm Beach County | ferminj Those cracks don’t look too good. It looks like it is on the panel that you cut out so the repair will easy to get at. The cracks have to go away you will need to grind the foam out clear through to the outer skin. Make sure you get all of the damaged foam removed then about ½ inch on each side of the crack taper the foam about a 30-degree angle outward towards the inner skin. Then I would lay-up two layers of unidirectional cloth about 6-8 oz weight tying the outside skin to the inside skin. You can fill the void with a bog made epoxy and a filler chopped glass and fill in the void level with the inner skin then lay-up one or two layer of over the patch area to pull it all together overlaying the area by several inches. Look on the outside of the hull my guess if you have kind of damage on the inside you have cracks on the outside also, or maybe it's just soft there. You need to build a lip for the deck lid. That is going to take some creativity. Looking at the picture the flange needs to be curved in shape. I would make it out of solid glass and you need to try to tie into the top and bottom of the damaged area if you can. You’ll need to grind into the area near the opening to get a good bite into the old glass, perhaps 2 inches. Looking at Turbocat’s picture of the new laminates, I take it you are going to get new laminates? If not, even the old laminates I’d mold off of them. Look at the picture of the new decks as they sit sailing side down there is flange around the edge of the laminate. Use a good quality duct tape and tape off the edges both sides top and bottom. Cut some cardboard from a big box and extend the edge of the flange out several inches as needed to tie into the flat part of the deck, you will need to go further but that will be the next step. Tape the cardboard to the side of the deck that is the actual top as it sails. So as you are looking at the picture in the post you have the upside deck lid (tubes up), tape, the deck lid, tape, cardboard. If you make the cardboard flange you can actually fit it in the hull to check for fit. Once you have your cardboard flange taped down to the deck tape out the cardboard. Wax everything with mold wax it you have it if not a paste car wax. If needed you can make the flange in pieces. I’d lay-up a flange with enough thickness to equal what was there. Now that the flange is made you need to attach the flange to the hull. Make sure you use Acetone or the like to remove the wax and sand some to skuff it up. I like pop-rivets or drywall screws just a few to hold it in place and dry fit everything. Grind and fit as needed. Once everything fits all right, remove the pop-rivits or screws, and glass in the flange you made and overlap it some in the hull on the top and bottom. There is one other way but it may be more work and that is to cut a few access holes in the inner side of the hull to work through and glass it up directly then patch the holes with flanges. I had to do that with my G-Cat because the deck is one piece. I have some pictures on my website of making a flange repair http://themanshed.net/archived-projects/g-cat-catamaran/?g2_page=2 and page 3. West systems has CD called How - To Basic application, fiberglass/composite repair, and gelcoat blister repair using their products Catalog Number 002-898 it was free at West Marine for awhile when you purchased some West Systems Products. It is general information for all repair work. Mike
Last edited by TheManShed; 02/21/10 07:02 PM. Reason: Forgot the waxing step
Mike Shappell www.themanshed.comTMS-20 Builder G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat NACRA 5.2 - early 70's | | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#204077 02/22/10 10:11 AM 02/22/10 10:11 AM |
Joined: May 2007 Posts: 149 TurboCat OP
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 149 | ferminj, Thanks to your pics we can now see the inner workings of the boat. This is the best P19 thread ive ever seen! With all the pics on this thread it should be easier for the next guy to fix his p19!
Shoot me your email and ill send that hobie repair article
Last edited by TurboCat; 02/22/10 10:12 AM.
| | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: TurboCat]
#206634 03/24/10 11:43 PM 03/24/10 11:43 PM |
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 53 yurdle
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 53 | | | | Re: Tell me about the Prindle 19
[Re: yurdle]
#206710 03/25/10 12:43 PM 03/25/10 12:43 PM |
Joined: May 2007 Posts: 149 TurboCat OP
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Posts: 149 | Ill get them up asap. This has been a crazy week and the boat has been put on the back burner. Im going to pick up a pair of hulls tonight as well as a mast so i will not have time for pics tonight. I will get some pics up this weekend for sure. Ive been playing with ways to stiffen up the beams too so ill post up my ideas and see what you guys think the best angle of attack is. Beam in beam, cnc'd inner sleeves, tigging on a additional pice of aluminum to the top, etc. | | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: TurboCat]
#253461 10/13/12 11:03 PM 10/13/12 11:03 PM |
Joined: May 2012 Posts: 8 Seabrook, TX Sailinghoutx
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Posts: 8 Seabrook, TX | I know the last post on this thread was back in 2010. I need some advice. TurboCat, I think we both live in the Houston area. I was sailing Galveston Bay today and it was blowing 20 with gusts and choppy. My 1987 Prindle 19 "I thought" was very solid. It looks like a new boat. The starboard bridle wire tang, the point where it attaches to the hull snapped off. Looks like metal fatigue. It didn't pull through, there is no glass damage to the hull. How do I make this repair? I'm guessing the deck is going to have to come off. I have no idea what this tang has "inside" the hull. I'm also thinking that if the starboard one failed then the port side should also be looked at and replaced. Can I find these parts and how do I make the repairs? Any help is much appreciated. I'm freaking out at the thought of taking it to a glass shop, looks like $$$$.
Thanks in advance
Morris Seabrook, TX
Morris Covin
Prindle 16 sail #5229 Prindle 16 sail #8647 Current ride; Prindle 19 sail #309
| | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: TurboCat]
#253475 10/14/12 04:01 PM 10/14/12 04:01 PM |
Joined: May 2006 Posts: 1,383 Kingston SE South Australia JeffS
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Posts: 1,383 Kingston SE South Australia | I don't know anything about the Prindle but the angle of the existing bow tang should give you an idea of how it will be mounted. If its flat verticle it may be as simple as bolted to a bulkhead and that would be a relatively easy fix once in the hull. When cutting into the hull make sure you don't make a cut on top of a bulkhead as you wont be able to get your arm in the hole
Jeff Southall Current boats Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider Nacra 18 Square Arrow 1576
| | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: Hullflyer1]
#253483 10/15/12 07:33 AM 10/15/12 07:33 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | for backing to reinstall the hole, cut short popsicle sticks and glue them to the inside of the hull to make a "shelf" for the cutout to sit against. Use cloths pins clips to hold the sticks to the hull while the glue dries (epoxy or polyester resin) and be careful not to get any resin on the sides of the opening so your cut-out will fit back in without issue. Then mix up some more thickened resin and put it to the sticks and the edges of the opening (lightly). fit the cut-out back into the hull and rotate it back and forth to squeeze out the resin and get it at the same level as the outer surface of the hull. Tape it into position and let it firm up. With a small ziplock bag, fill it again with more thickened resin and just nip off a corner of the bag with scissors or a razor blade. Use this to squeeze in some more thickened resin around the perimeter of the repair filling the gap between the hull and the plate like icing a cake. This resin should be the thickest of them all - nearly like peanut butter in consistency. Scrape away any excess and let this cure. Then, with a side-angle grinder and a flapper sanding disk, I would sand around the perimeter of the repair you just made and dig into the fresh resin creating a little dished out area to lay in some new fiberglass to join the outer skin back together. Cut a bunch of fiberglass pieces and start to build the shallow U-notch you made back out slightly beyond the outer surface of the hull. Let it cure, sand with palm sander, skim coat with some premium bondo, sand, fill pin holes, gelcoat.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: TurboCat]
#253486 10/15/12 09:13 AM 10/15/12 09:13 AM |
Joined: May 2012 Posts: 8 Seabrook, TX Sailinghoutx
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Posts: 8 Seabrook, TX | Thanks for the replies guys, I wasn't sure if my question would be seen as this thread was from back in 2009. I posted up again as a new posting, hope this is not a problem. This seems like it is going to be a BIG undertaking and I have no glass experience. I read and reviewed the photos Turbocat posted, it just looks like removing the top deck will give the easiest access but I don't even know if I can still find new top decks. Plus, not even sure how to get the top decks off.
Thanks for the help.
Morris Covin
Prindle 16 sail #5229 Prindle 16 sail #8647 Current ride; Prindle 19 sail #309
| | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: Sailinghoutx]
#253493 10/15/12 11:22 AM 10/15/12 11:22 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Thanks for the replies guys, I wasn't sure if my question would be seen as this thread was from back in 2009. I posted up again as a new posting, hope this is not a problem. This seems like it is going to be a BIG undertaking and I have no glass experience. I read and reviewed the photos Turbocat posted, it just looks like removing the top deck will give the easiest access but I don't even know if I can still find new top decks. Plus, not even sure how to get the top decks off.
Thanks for the help. I think going in through the side is a better option. A hole-saw may not provide a large enough hole, you may be better off to use a jig saw and cut the access through the side of the hull, then reinstall the panel you cut out. Removing the decks is really hit or miss...you may break the deck and I really doubt you'll be able to find a replacement....then again, maybe fixing the deck would be easier than the hole option?
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: TurboCat]
#253505 10/15/12 12:55 PM 10/15/12 12:55 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | If you do use a jigsaw ,set the blade at 45 degrees so you cut the hole like the top of a Jack o' Lantern( \_/ ), then you have a larger stable gluing surface to re-mount the patch back on to. Makes fairing and finishing much easier, as well as a much sturdier repair.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: TurboCat]
#253513 10/15/12 04:19 PM 10/15/12 04:19 PM |
Joined: May 2006 Posts: 1,383 Kingston SE South Australia JeffS
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Posts: 1,383 Kingston SE South Australia | I've removed a top deck before on another boat and it turned into a big job to get it tidy again. I would encourage you to do it through the side as the above posts by experienced people recommend. The more worried about your fibreglass skills the more you should go through the inside of the hull, even if you don't do a very good paint job on your repair nobody will notice it but your decks everyone will see. If you do manage to buy a new deck you need to trust your resin skills to glue it down with absolutely no gaps anywhere or it will suck water and it is very difficult to stop these leaks afterwards
Jeff Southall Current boats Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider Nacra 18 Square Arrow 1576
| | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: JeffS]
#253514 10/15/12 07:36 PM 10/15/12 07:36 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | I've removed a top deck before on another boat and it turned into a big job to get it tidy again. I would encourage you to do it through the side as the above posts by experienced people recommend. The more worried about your fibreglass skills the more you should go through the inside of the hull, even if you don't do a very good paint job on your repair nobody will notice it but your decks everyone will see. If you do manage to buy a new deck you need to trust your resin skills to glue it down with absolutely no gaps anywhere or it will suck water and it is very difficult to stop these leaks afterwards I've done both and getting the deck off without tearing or breaking it is very hard (Apparently too hard for me) if you are going to try and get the deck off you need to use a heat gun and a putty knife ,but not get the glass too hot. The side is easier, will finish better (especially if you do the pumpkin cut) and is less apt to be under as high stress loads as the deck will be. Just make sure you have open access before you cut i.e. not cutting into a bulkhead.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#253526 10/16/12 06:58 AM 10/16/12 06:58 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | I've removed a top deck before on another boat and it turned into a big job to get it tidy again. I would encourage you to do it through the side as the above posts by experienced people recommend. The more worried about your fibreglass skills the more you should go through the inside of the hull, even if you don't do a very good paint job on your repair nobody will notice it but your decks everyone will see. If you do manage to buy a new deck you need to trust your resin skills to glue it down with absolutely no gaps anywhere or it will suck water and it is very difficult to stop these leaks afterwards I've done both and getting the deck off without tearing or breaking it is very hard (Apparently too hard for me) if you are going to try and get the deck off you need to use a heat gun and a putty knife ,but not get the glass too hot. The side is easier, will finish better (especially if you do the pumpkin cut) and is less apt to be under as high stress loads as the deck will be. Just make sure you have open access before you cut i.e. not cutting into a bulkhead. Aaaa! good point...avoid bulkheads. Cutting into one of those for your access hole has a suck factor of "12".
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: Jake]
#253538 10/16/12 10:23 AM 10/16/12 10:23 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums
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Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | I agree with cutting into the sides vs. removing a deck. I need to cut into the sied of my N20 this winter and have been studying Jakes repair photos for ideas. Not to hi jack but has anyone ever noticed a thin, soft line in the side just below the no-skid where your heel rides when trapping out?
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: TeamChums]
#253547 10/16/12 12:58 PM 10/16/12 12:58 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | I agree with cutting into the sides vs. removing a deck. I need to cut into the sied of my N20 this winter and have been studying Jakes repair photos for ideas. Not to hi jack but has anyone ever noticed a thin, soft line in the side just below the no-skid where your heel rides when trapping out? I've never noticed that on any of the 20's I've owned/worked on. Is it horizontal? There shouldn't be any structural feature to cause that (unless you have a Hobie Tiger-like sub deck for some reason).
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: Jake]
#253599 10/17/12 11:23 AM 10/17/12 11:23 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums
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Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | It is horizontal and about 16" long. I'm thinking there may be a seam in the foam core here. I'll be cutting in a hole on the inside and likely laying up some carbon in there.
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Bridle wire tang broke off at hull
[Re: TeamChums]
#253615 10/17/12 08:45 PM 10/17/12 08:45 PM |
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 337 Arizona AzCat
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337 Arizona | Mine had a 6" fracture when I bought it,. I chased it , glassed it and gelcoated it, seems to be solid so far. It was right behind the rear beam, 6" down.. It was easy to sand and add a layer of glass on the inside through the access port. I got lucky. There was no structural member there.
My 5.0 had a 6" fracture in front of the main beam. right at the top of the long. struct member. same fix. single layer glass hulls so I just fixed from the outside.
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