P Mumm is calling me to relay information from one of the mark boats. He just ringed me and said that they're a go - and that they're leaving now to go setup the marks. He said that it will take "a while" for the teams to sail from the Sailing Center to the Gulf.
I basically told Philip that - since the names and numbers of the boats are going to change with each fleet changeup - just to get me the names of the top 5 finishers of every race AT THE VERY LEAST.
More information of course, would be more than welcome.
Wish I could promise more - but again, not being there...
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: Tony_F18]
#193915 10/19/0909:16 AM10/19/0909:16 AM
You can follow realtime weather from the station on the end of Pier 60 in Clearwater, the only local station on the Gulf side. It's less than a mile from the course (depending on where they set the marks). Some sensors may be damaged after yesterday's big blow. Look at that water temp drop!
Newberry (Philip is really impressed with them - "Perfect in all aspects of their game, from what I could see they were flawless") Tortellino/HOlmes Tomko Pitt (malfunctioning downhaul reported)
.8 mile course, 065 wind direction, A mark about 4/10ths of a mile from the jetty, right on the channel line apparently. two boats recalled at the start - only one cleared. Burd/Easton retired from race - headed to beach. Reason unknown. _________________________
I quickly put together a rough google earth sketch of the course layout from Philip's description just so viewers at home can get a feel for the terrain. You can also see the sail required to get out to the Gulf from the beach.
... DNF - did not go through leward gate apparently.
Technically, RC can't score a boat DNF for a mark rounding error. If the boat acknowledges the error and withdraws voluntarily, she should be scored RAF. Otherwise, someone must protest. If Protest Committee determines that the boat broke rule 28, they will disqualify her and direct RC to score her DSQ.
Of course, the score is the same, so if nobody contests RC's action, the end result doesn't change.
Regards, Eric
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: Isotope235]
#194030 10/20/0904:17 PM10/20/0904:17 PM
I just went down to the course. perfect conditions. 81* great wind (around 10-12) no chance of rain...
you can see the action very well from the hotel... but no one at the pool could care less. there was a sign at the state park but i didn't go in to see if there were "spectators". the course is a little more south than the picture above depicts (well clear of the sand key pass) and i could see the race from many different locations as i drove through Clearwater beach.
Tomorrow i will go again but bring my iphone to snap some pics (or my real camera if i remember it)
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: Isotope235]
#194031 10/20/0904:26 PM10/20/0904:26 PM
The Alter Cup does have provisions for protest hearings to be heard on the dock between races. This is necessary because of the way the fleet is divided and seeded after each race. It is possible the hearing was held on the dock between races and only reported as a DNF for the purposes of these updates. It is also possible the competitor did not finish after realizing the error.
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: USA197]
#194034 10/20/0904:56 PM10/20/0904:56 PM
... DNF - did not go through leward gate apparently.
Technically, RC can't score a boat DNF for a mark rounding error. If the boat acknowledges the error and withdraws voluntarily, she should be scored RAF. Otherwise, someone must protest. If Protest Committee determines that the boat broke rule 28, they will disqualify her and direct RC to score her DSQ.
Of course, the score is the same, so if nobody contests RC's action, the end result doesn't change.
There is a possible scenario for a DNF: the crew notice their own mistake, stop racing and cruise to the next start never passing the finish line. I've done that before...
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: brucat]
#194039 10/20/0906:54 PM10/20/0906:54 PM
Wind 9knots at 100 at the A mark. Silver fleet about to start.
Philip said he just saw a Hammerhead.
Most likely what he saw was a Shovel Head shark.....but, Hammerheads are out there.
I know the difference. Hammerhead, nuff said. As for some of the posts I have just read regarding wind speed and direction, the data I'm providing is real time, from multiple calibrated instruments, ON THE COURSE, so please, refrain from youe interweb prognog. It doesn't get anymore accurate than this. As for the waves, JC just sailed around the 4-5 footers, and only found the 2-3 footers. He's that good.
Very nice banquet last night, which addressed the future of the Alter Cup, Olympic multihulls, etc. That deserves it own thread.
Thanks Tad!
Philip USA #1006
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: P.M.]
#194072 10/21/0907:20 AM10/21/0907:20 AM
Finish for Silvers: Cope Newsome Pitt Marshack Carlson Raybon Langefeld Humphries Witte Ingram -retired from race (God help me I'm not going to report him as DNF this time!)
How is Emilee holding up for Nigel? I'm glad to see that Nigel is including his daughter, but I was really surprised to see her crewing in an event like this. I know my 13 year old daughter would not have the strength and stamina to handle a 5 day event, more less handle the spin. Is she able to hoist and douse the spin? I noticed one picture that it appeared that he was doing it. ....don't get me wrong.. I'm not casting stones. I'm glad to see more dad/kid teams and it makes it a lot more fun when I take one of my daughters to a regatta and there are other kids racing. I've been racing with my daughters for 4 years now, but only at certain events on the H16. Not sure my 9 or 13 year old could do more than just be rail meat on an F18.
Lots of lead changes. Tomko had to cover Roots at the finish to win. Lots of holes all over the course Philip says. Wind is all over the place - its laid down quite a bit apparently and the boat that could find the wind won that race.
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: MarkW_F18]
#194112 10/21/0902:56 PM10/21/0902:56 PM
I talked with Nigel at Nationals and his daughter doesn't do much on the boat from my understanding, but she does have a good time according to him. He sailed with her a number of weeks ago on an F16 at the GYA regatta. I have a few more years before my daughter can crew with me. The goal is not to scare the hell out of her before she is ready for it!
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: PTP]
#194114 10/21/0904:32 PM10/21/0904:32 PM
Sorry Tad. I had run into some issues with the uploads. I had to get the website owner to help out. When I left for racing this morning they were not ready. It's probably to late to call you right now so I will get with you in the morning. Working on todays pictures now.
Burd/Easton stood the boat up going around the A mark first lap - "I mean the boat was vertical" but recovered and came back to win it.
The hundred dollar question is did I get a picture of "THE STUFF"? Well, I got the second half of it, shooting directly into the sun. I was busy shooting a sequence of JC/Williams rounding the offset (in first) when Jill hollered and I pulled up looking for the expected (2nd boat) and bam!
Philip USA #1006
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: P.M.]
#194138 10/22/0903:17 AM10/22/0903:17 AM
I think it's awesome that Nigel brought Emily along to crew the Alter Cup, much less in these conditions. If you're going to dive in then by all means dive in head first. She's probably a better crew than I am, I'm sure JC can vouch for that.
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: BLR_0719]
#194146 10/22/0907:48 AM10/22/0907:48 AM
Philip posted some more pics. All photos credit Philip Mumm. Don't still his stuff. He'll get angry and put giant watermarks on his pics again if you do
Report that the starboard spin pole bridle pulled out of the hull.. holing it. JC/Williams seeking redress even though, according to them they've "never seeked redress ever".
Humphries was sailing in the Silver Fleet yesterday and was leading the fleet in the race when his mainsheet broke about 100 yards from the finish. They fashioned a repair on the water and finished in 4th place. They filed for redress and the committee gave them a finish averaging their previous results.
Well the competitors didn't quite like that determination so they forced the committee to reopen the redress and they instead awarded Humphries the 1st place finish for that race as they rightfully should have (according to the competitors involved).
So they'll be joining the Gold fleet next time they race.
So here we have one of the drawbacks to relaying information. The spin bridle didn't put a hole in the hull... the bridles are run through a hole in the bows... the line just pulled out of the hole. No hull damage. The spin pole has already been replaced and boat is back on the water.
"Well the competitors didn't quite like that determination so they forced the committee to reopen the redress and they instead awarded Humphries the 1st place finish for that race as they rightfully should have (according to the competitors involved)."
Excellent, good to see sportsmanship is alive and well (although, I'm not really surprised with US cats). I only wish more classes would act this way. I'm going to use this story this weekend (kids regatta).
Mike
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: brucat]
#194201 10/22/0912:22 PM10/22/0912:22 PM
They should have no problem getting in at least 3 races, the wind is blowing, east at 10-15 at my house (90 miles to the south east of there) and the sun is shining, it's been a very good week for wind.
Blade F16 #777
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: Timbo]
#194206 10/22/0912:37 PM10/22/0912:37 PM
Thanks for all the updates, almost like being there! Any words on how the sailors like the Viper? I think only a few of them usually sail in the F16 class. I know JC and JW did the AC on the Blade a couple years ago, I guess some of the others did too. But how about the -big boat- sailors?
Blade F16 #777
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: Timbo]
#194211 10/22/0912:47 PM10/22/0912:47 PM
"Coolest finish you've ever seen" JC on starboard, Tomko on port, tacked right in front of JC to finish. Philip thinks that there are going to be a protest for the finish. He also things Burd/Easton are going to get an average score for their redress.
Just got off the phone with the unofficial winners, JW and JC.
JW tells me, and I'm paraphrasing here...
"We knew what we needed to do... so we kept with them all the way out to the left side of the course....we were the only ones out there. We we to windward of them and a little behind them when their mast went. I mean, it folded up like oragami, I've never seen a mast fold like that. We blew all our sheets and stopped and made sure they were ok. Trip and Mike looked up at me, both ok, and gave me a look like 'What are you doing here? GO WIN IT!' so we raced off and finished it off."
JC added - "The wind was so shifty and everyone got so much faster during the week. I think we tacked what, 6 times on the last upwind leg just on shifts alone."
So there you go, a little first hand knowledge about the mast issue.
The mast broke near the spreaders. Early examination think that the spreader moved downward, then twisted, and then the mast tore in two front to back.
Many photos of the start with a port boat, that was hairy! Many pictures of the finish. I'll will post the sequence. I'm sure it will start a new rules thread.
More later. . . .
Philip USA #1006
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: P.M.]
#194246 10/22/0902:32 PM10/22/0902:32 PM
The new Viper I saw a couple weeks ago came with the Ronstan Orbit mainsheet system with dyneema link. That would change the "shackle" story.
The dyneema link is basically a loop of dyneema or similar with a stopper ball and knot. We replaced all of the boat with brand new links or soft shackles. Several of these let go this week. It is the stopper ball that is failing. It will be changed. A little thing and simple. The other recurring issue was a spin halyard getting off the sheave. That happened several times and is a design change, most likely a different brand and/or size of block.
Philip USA #1006
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: P.M.]
#194252 10/22/0903:03 PM10/22/0903:03 PM
Why are they using the soft shackle on the mainsheet? Just to save weight? What does a little stainless steel -won't ever fail- regular mainsheet shackle weigh? I think sometimes people go a little too far just to save one ounce.
And I had the same problem with my spin halyard until I replaced the Ronstan hoist block with a little Harken carbo, no problems since.
Blade F16 #777
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: Timbo]
#194254 10/22/0903:11 PM10/22/0903:11 PM
We took special pictures of the females (11 out of 40) and the youths. I'll get them up later. JW will be heading to Houston to address youths and sailing, so I'm excited with what has happened and happening.
Philip USA #1006
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: P.M.]
#194256 10/22/0903:23 PM10/22/0903:23 PM
Final Official Results 1. Casey/Williams 2. Michael Easton/ Tripp Bird 3. John Tomko/ Paige Railey 4. Leondro Spina/ Jamie Livingston 5. Chris Batchelor/ Taylor Reiss 6. Julian Roots/Taylor Palmer 7. Nigel Pitt/ Emilee Pitt 8. Ken Marshack/ Timothy Zenderman 9. Jeffery Newsome/ Susan Korzeniewski 10. Olli Jason/ Kelly Jason 11. Haywood Cope/ Tina Pastoor 12. Sandra Tartaglino/ Glenn Holmes 13. Sarah Newberry/ Elizabeth Newberry 14. Jake Kohl/ Tom Hall 15. David Ingram/ Kathy Ingram 16. Andy Humphries/ Chris Amador 17. Greg Raybon/ Dan Rodriguez 18. Karl Langefield/ Beth Bonifant 19. Eric Witte/ Eric Witte, Jr. 20. Brent Carlson/ Chris Rothmeier My apologies for any misspellings.
If it is the stopper ball, it must have been the piece of line that attaches the clew of the mainsail to the top mainsheet block - encircling the boom. It is a loop of Dyneema with a stopper ball on one end.
String it up by taking the loop end through the eye on the clew around the boom, through the shackle on the top mainsheet block and around again. The loop then slides over the stopper ball. I guess the stopper balls were cracking under load (?).
The soft shackle on the Orbit maisheet blocks are on the bottom block. Mine did not seem to twist very well.
Sounds like some close racing. Awesome job!!!
Last edited by tshan; 10/22/0904:21 PM.
Tom
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: tshan]
#194264 10/22/0905:28 PM10/22/0905:28 PM
We went to soft shakles because they where ment to be more reliable and simpler.
The problem is if the plastic ball isn't top quality it can crack under loading.... might have to look at the more reliable part ... i'll have a new solution by lunch time.
The problem is if the plastic ball isn't top quality it can crack under loading.... might have to look at the more reliable part.
Isn't the "more reliable part" made from titanium instead of plastic? Just out of curiosity, why use a ball at all? Wouldn't a button knot on the end be stronger and more reliable?
Regards, Eric
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: Isotope235]
#194270 10/22/0907:56 PM10/22/0907:56 PM
Congrats to JC and Lil' John. Thanks Tad for keeping us up to date in real time! This is huge in promotion and coverage of major regattas. Talked to Mike and Tripp about the mast snapping on them. There is only one thing to do when you go through circumstances like they did today (drink heavily) but they were able to clearly iterate that they were clearly in the lead double trapped upwind with 75% downhaul on when the mast suddenly snapped at the spreader without any warning. They are obviously disappointed. Chris
The mast broke near the spreaders. Early examination think that the spreader moved downward, then twisted, and then the mast tore in two front to back.
More later. . . .
Well, the examination was damn near spot on. The starboard spreader moved up, not down. I was at Robbie and Jill's taking the images off the card to the computer, and damn near fell off the sofa when I saw it. Holy **** guys, take a look at this picture. Greg, Robbie and all jump up and there it was. I just happen to have taken a picture of them as they were heading out to the start line showing the spreader at a sharp upward angle.
Philip USA #1006
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: Timbo]
#194283 10/23/0905:31 AM10/23/0905:31 AM
Yeah, this tidbit is common knowlegde (at least should be in F16 circles) ever since 2004. Ronston (plastic) blocks should not be used in the spi halyard systems. Several of us have had this experience. In my opinion the simple steel Harken small blocks are best in this use.
Mainsheet ? Simple (small) shackle on the bottom and a 8 mm or thicker S-hook on top. Quick release possible (even quicker then with a shoft shackle) and heavily tested over 5 years now. Never failed on me.
Wouter
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
I have tested these softies with only a double figure 8 knot (button knots are too complicated IMO) and there is no way the knot will slip out or the shackle break unless you expose them to thousands of pounds. However, any abrasion in the system (like from a stopper ball) and you should just use a metal shackle
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: PTP]
#194291 10/23/0908:34 AM10/23/0908:34 AM
is "slipping" common or even possible without some impact?
i had one spreader slip down (on my TheMightyHobie18) after a capsize (or demasting, or lowering the mast on the beach) and was able to smack it back into the right spot. but it needed a good amount of force.
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: ]
#194295 10/23/0908:49 AM10/23/0908:49 AM
That's what I put on two years ago, no problems since, but I sail mostly in fresh water.
I think the salt water might be an issue with the original Ronstan plastic blocks, salt and sand eating into it and causing problems? Or is there just too much room between the sheeve and the wheel and the halyard gets in there?
Blade F16 #777
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#194307 10/23/0909:13 AM10/23/0909:13 AM
Last season I have seen all of them explode, no matter the make or type. Just something to check a lot, it always fails at the worst times though, like that time I had to take the spi down and the halyard slid of the block and jammed!
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: ]
#194308 10/23/0909:17 AM10/23/0909:17 AM
is "slipping" common or even possible without some impact?
Was the boat whose spreader slipped the same boat that had to be laid over on its side to fix the spin block? Could the spreader have been displace during that tip-over?
The spin block failure happened when the skinny halyard jammed between the sheave and the housing. I don't think the block "blew up".
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: David Parker]
#194309 10/23/0909:30 AM10/23/0909:30 AM
When I chartered my boat to Mischa for the 2007 T500, he put the tiniest little harken bullet block as the spin turning block on the mast. I was like "holy crap you trust that thing?!"
Its still going strong. Same one. I check it everytime I rig up the boat and its still as good as the day he put it on there.
I have put those on 5 boats and they all haven't have a problem. I guess if you decide to taper the halyard down to 1/16 line or some siliness like that then there might be a problem.
Button knot would be more reliable, but the dyneema is so slippery we decided to use the ball... a plain knot might be the way to go.
There are plenty of knots with a good enough nip to hold in dyneema. As a class, lanyard knots might retain their shape under load better than button knots, but I'm partial to the form of a 2-strand 8-part button. That's what I put in my soft shackles.
Also note that during the T500, I had to install a second inline cleat on the front beam to keep the halyard from slipping - and the head of my chute blew up - but the block is still ok.
Thanks dude, I appreciate the compliment. I will post a link once I get the pictures done. There is alot of work on my end. I have the start sequence and the finish sequence which is owesome. I will post the awards and "THE STUFF", and everything else once I get home. I'm traveling now.
Philip USA #1006
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: P.M.]
#194338 10/23/0901:23 PM10/23/0901:23 PM
Chris: its not too difficult to imagine. My spin halyard comes down to my front crossbeam to a small turning block on the front of the beam. Then behind the turning block are two cleats almost back to back.
is "slipping" common or even possible without some impact?
Was the boat whose spreader slipped the same boat that had to be laid over on its side to fix the spin block? Could the spreader have been displace during that tip-over?
Good questions. We talked about this at length last night and this morning. Both Easton and JC boats were gone over carefully and in detail before leaving the beach for the last race. Greg feels very confident that it was square when the boat was stood up, but you never know. Two theories 1) When they righted the boat on the beach the person walking the mast up walked it up along the diamond wires as apposed to the side stay, and might have bumped it up. 2)the head of the spin in the spin set could have got caught on the spreader and been forced up when raising the halyard. When the boats left the beach they were all on the same tack and downwind, making it unlikely that Tripp yanked it up with the halyard, as the picture showed it was already that way. So it was likely yank up in a previous race with a different team on the boat, or done on the beach. I don't think it is likely that it got moved on the beach as the diamonds were set on 33, but who knows.
Philip USA #1006
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: P.M.]
#194343 10/23/0902:40 PM10/23/0902:40 PM
The photo looks like it was boat #6 that broke the mast. I'm pretty sure it was boat #8 that was flipped to fix the spin halyard block. It was the race that Ding probably got redress for on Wednesday. Can you check if it was #8 or #6?
chris, the double cleats are the small harken's to match the line size of the halyard. the fair lead for the double is a harken 16 mm air block sewn to the tramp a foot or two back. This allows you to hoist in any direction. You should position the 16 mm block so that you can pull the halyard through the jaws and it's always cleated. to release you pull the halyard between the 16 mm and the cleats while pulling on the retrieval line.
crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: David Parker]
#194359 10/23/0904:50 PM10/23/0904:50 PM
The photo looks like it was boat #6 that broke the mast. I'm pretty sure it was boat #8 that was flipped to fix the spin halyard block. It was the race that Ding probably got redress for on Wednesday. Can you check if it was #8 or #6?
Boat #6 David
We had more than one of the sheave issues, and boats were regularly being turned over for various reasons.
Here is what I have found so far in the forensics of the pictures. I have many pictures of the spreader square on the end of day 3.
Day 4 the team on boat #6 in the previous race was Jake. I have a picture of the spreader in the compromised position. There was another race before (A fleet) that I have nothing on yet, so the spreader was raced in the compromised position for at least 2 races. Remember in all the hoists the spin was to port.
Tad, Is there a way I can attach the picture larger than 100K. Send me some magic . . .
Philip USA #1006
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: P.M.]
#194360 10/23/0904:53 PM10/23/0904:53 PM
In my opinion the simple steel Harken small blocks are best in this use.
these work great with a line from luff track through the center of the block to the other side and a pigtail from the tang.
Ask Jake about that little block on the spinny halyard.
Before Tybee we looked over the boats pretty well and JC had one of those on the "General Lee" (a.k.a. Team Seacats Orange) the strap was torn through about 2/3 or 3/4 of the way. Replaced it and all is well but they need to be inspected regularly.
The shock on Jake's face was priceless, who knows how many times that boat raced with the block compromised, I know tradewinds and some others. Probably some races when JC had it as well.
Always borrow money from a pessimist. He won't expect it back.
Humphries was sailing in the Silver Fleet yesterday and was leading the fleet in the race when his mainsheet broke about 100 yards from the finish. They fashioned a repair on the water and finished in 4th place. They filed for redress and the committee gave them a finish averaging their previous results.
Well the competitors didn't quite like that determination so they forced the committee to reopen the redress and they instead awarded Humphries the 1st place finish for that race as they rightfully should have (according to the competitors involved).
So they'll be joining the Gold fleet next time they race.
Just a clarification, no one "forced" anything, we reconsidered our decision and decided to make the change.
Kevin Rejda Rock Hill, SC
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: P.M.]
#194394 10/24/0909:18 AM10/24/0909:18 AM
Yes, I plan to stay on as Chair, we had discussions during the week about the future in conjunction with the youth event and JW is at the AGM in Houston right now trying to sort some things out with US Sailing. The good news is that I was contacted during the week by a manufacturer willing to supply boats in the spring! More on that in the coming weeks. From my perspective the event was a tremendous success, thanks to all to helped make it happen, Jill, Robbie, Greg, and Dan with AHPC and Fun in the Sun, Dick Boblenz with Clearwater Sailing Center and Clearwater Yacht Club, our fantastic PRO, Fairlie Brinkley, Judges Ann Newton, Judy Hanlon, Tom Rinda, and Henry Poole, Mumm for the photos and updates, and everyone else who helped put together this championship. Thank you all.
Kevin Rejda Rock Hill, SC
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: KevinRejda]
#194403 10/24/0910:42 AM10/24/0910:42 AM
Day 4 photos are up. I have created a folder for the start sequence of the final race. Check out Spina/Livingston going for broke on Port. It was crazy exciting.
I have also created a folder for the finish sequence of the final race. Top three approaching the finish line were Tomko, Casey, and Spina. JC was leward and ahead and tacked to starboard to set up and protect finish at the pin. Tomko's laying the pin on port and Spina (on port) was close behind Tomko. As all 3 converged on the finish, it got interesting and fast. JC now on starboard is laying the pin at speed. Tomko pirouettes in front of JC. Spina ducks JC and speeds in above JC on starboard and with much more speed than JC, because JC has to slow down behind Tomko. In the excitement Spina almost picks off JC, finishing 4 ft behind JC. Try to imagine the sequence playing out at speed, and with the added yelling. In the last image you see Livingston watching from the leward side. Damn, it was friggin' awesome. It just doesn't get any better then this! photo albums
Album Race Day 4 includes the awards ceremony and also pictures of the youth competitors as well as the female competitors. More to come . . .
Last edited by mummp; 10/25/0905:44 PM. Reason: spelling
Philip USA #1006
Re: Alter Cup Updates from water
[Re: P.M.]
#194470 10/25/0906:06 PM10/25/0906:06 PM