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#205540 - 03/13/10 03:39 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Stewart]  
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Originally Posted by Stewart
The "largest builder" has also asked the T4.9 class to increase it



Absolute 100% rubbish.

The class association voted to raise the min weight, not AHPC. the reason is hardly anyone was under so no one was carrying weight. now round 70% of the fleet caries lead so the are all a lot closer to the same weight.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
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#205541 - 03/13/10 03:46 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: pgp]  
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As to all Carbon boats, what do you think an all carbon super fandango boat would weigh ? Having built a hand built carbon F16 my guess would be around 85 kilos in single handed mode, now the maximum you could save in the hulls alone would be about 5 kilos per hull over all glass hulls. Get where I'm going, it would have to be ballasted up to 104 kilos so you may as well make the hulls all in glass and save the cost. Carbon beams are not going to save you any weight over ali ( well maybe a minimum ) which really leaves the mast ( and they are not that expensive after all Stealth supplies them standard )and rudders and the likes.

Sorry Carbon construction is not the issue here as most manufacturers by choice can get down around class weights if they want to using Glass construction.

#205542 - 03/13/10 03:47 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Dazz]  
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Aido Offline
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Brisveagas
Now that is interesting.


Aido
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#205543 - 03/13/10 03:51 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: waynemarlow]  
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
. . .Sorry Carbon construction is not the issue here as most manufacturers by choice can get down around class weights if they want to using Glass construction.


But I'll bet their labor costs will go up to do it.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#205544 - 03/13/10 03:55 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Jalani]  
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Originally Posted by Jalani
Those are tired arguments Andrew.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that an F16 that costs as much as an M20 will be ANY faster than a 'standard' F16.

If that turns out to be the case, since we are assured by the class founders that it will be, then why on earth would anyone spend all that for no real gain?????
And furthermore, if they did, would it really matter?


John,

Its naive to think that a full carbon boat (say an all carbon Viper) built to min weight will not be faster than the current offering (which is already the fastest boat). If you have been told otherwise by the class founders then I suggest you review how much of their view you believe..

The class is running along right now in a happy state of illusion that all is good and that nobody will ever build such a boat and even if they did it wouldn't be faster. Well I have news for you: Such a boat WILL BE faster and it will cost more than an A class to build.


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#205545 - 03/13/10 04:13 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: macca]  
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Originally Posted by macca
[which is already the fastest boat.


Coor that is a big statement for a boat that is yet to compete head to head here in the UK with other designs. My guess with equal quality Jockeys, a Stealth ( first designed 10 years ago ) would be still be pretty competitive. When a Viper turns up and stays around to compete, unlike the one occassion when similar standard jockeys were present in the UK, my guess any of the boats now available could be the winner and that is the beauty of the box rule as it stands.

#205546 - 03/13/10 04:38 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: waynemarlow]  
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Aido Offline
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Brisveagas
Please explain Wayne.

Surely chris and georgia have handed you your butt already.

Last edited by Aido; 03/13/10 04:42 PM.

Aido
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#205548 - 03/13/10 04:47 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: waynemarlow]  
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
As to all Carbon boats, what do you think an all carbon super fandango boat would weigh ? Having built a hand built carbon F16 my guess would be around 85 kilos in single handed mode, now the maximum you could save in the hulls alone would be about 5 kilos per hull over all glass hulls. Get where I'm going, it would have to be ballasted up to 104 kilos so you may as well make the hulls all in glass and save the cost. Carbon beams are not going to save you any weight over ali ( well maybe a minimum ) which really leaves the mast ( and they are not that expensive after all Stealth supplies them standard )and rudders and the likes.

Sorry Carbon construction is not the issue here as most manufacturers by choice can get down around class weights if they want to using Glass construction.


Wayne, A lot more than 5kg per hull can be saved by building in carbon, but you need to build it with the right method and a backyard builder isn't going to have the right skills/equipment to do so.

Further, the weight is not the only point here, Carbon is also a better boat building material. The added stiffness and GOG gains are significant, whilst it is a diminishing return from a certain point, there are still gains to be made and costs go up dramatically.

None of the above makes your racing any better, You should all be trying to work out how to get more people on your boats and the best way to do that is to make them more accessible and to do that you need boats that are cost effective and retain value. A set of rules that allow such big gains to be made by spending heaps of money is not the way to achieve those objectives.



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#205549 - 03/13/10 04:49 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Dazz]  
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Originally Posted by Dazz
Originally Posted by Stewart
The "largest builder" has also asked the T4.9 class to increase it



Absolute 100% rubbish.

The class association voted to raise the min weight, not AHPC. the reason is hardly anyone was under so no one was carrying weight. now round 70% of the fleet caries lead so the are all a lot closer to the same weight.


And by being closer in weight you have closer racing... and thats what its all about!


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#205551 - 03/13/10 04:52 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: John Williams]  
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Originally Posted by John Williams
But you are simply wrong in your assertion that Jim's amicable departure has changed how AHPC makes boats or resulted in dropping the A-cat from their line-up because they are incapable of making one.


Amicable? what exactly does that mean in the US? must be a different meaning downunder..


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#205557 - 03/13/10 07:07 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: macca]  
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Macca, is someone twisting your arm to force you to force your crap on the F16 Class?

Who's your daddy? How much is he paying you to spew? Better yet, how much of YOUR money have YOU SPENT on a new F16? What? You don't own one? Why? Too light?

Why do you give a frak what we do? Really, why?

Don't you have anything better to do than to come to the F16 site and peddal your BS?

Seriously?

Get a life.

The F16 class was and is doing fine without your help. Do you want me to lock you in a room with Wouter?


Blade F16
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#205558 - 03/13/10 07:16 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: macca]  
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Macca: I see what you are saying but you have to agree your views are at this moment hypothetical and probably will be for quite a few years.
When winning an F16 Worlds will be as prestigeus as winning a T worlds or F18 Worlds then people will happily spend $20k+ on a new super lightweight boat but IMHO that will not be any day soon (a good thing as well probably).

#205562 - 03/13/10 08:16 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Karl_Brogger]  
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Hi Karl, not wanting to increase weight myself..
I believe Formula boats is building to weight. In glass and foam.. They make a viable quality product....

Cant say about the other builders.. But by all accounts the F16 builders do quality work.....

#205568 - 03/13/10 09:20 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Tony_F18]  
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Macca: I see what you are saying but you have to agree your views are at this moment hypothetical and probably will be for quite a few years.
When winning an F16 Worlds will be as prestigeus as winning a T worlds or F18 Worlds then people will happily spend $20k+ on a new super lightweight boat but IMHO that will not be any day soon (a good thing as well probably).


Hi Tony,

it's just a lot better to get the formula right sooner rather than later when there are many different variations out there.

And to say that nobody will spend 20k on an optimized f16 is like saying there is no point in having the rules as free as they are.


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#205573 - 03/13/10 09:41 PM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: John Williams]  
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No I disagree and I think proof is in the pudding! Boyer was the boat builder of that operation and to my knowledge he has not been replaced and they have lost capacity. Has anyone actually weighed or even seen a new Taipan? cool Maybe they will UP the minimum weight for that class as well (already did once) or simple destroy the molds like they did with the 5.7. frown So yes it's my opinion that Goodall sails is incapable of producing Acats or even a Taipan (Kevlar option no longer available) much less an F16 at minimum weight. Again the proof is in the results. wink

As for all the talk of an all carbon F16 but that is a complete BS propaganda too in my opinion. Whom could they get to build it for them and at what price? And who's going to be stupid enough to build one out of carbon (besides Mecca) when they could just as easily build to minimum weight using a glass and Kevlar combination as Boyer developed for the Taipan?..cool Come on these are not Acats at 70kgs! Pure propaganda.... cool


Originally Posted by John Williams
Are we talking about the same AHPC? As someone who owns an AHPC product and someone who has raced both the Blade and the Viper against the best in the US, I find the Aussie boats to be the best-built production catamarans in the world. F18 weights are incredibly consistent and (as Macca notes) on the light side of the line every single boat I have seen since 2006. Greg says he chose to go a bit heavier on the Viper so it could be driven harder off the breeze. The boat is doing very well in the F16 fleet. This, IMO, is not indicative of "mediocrity" as you assert, but instead a design and build decision balanced between cost and benefit - which is a positive feature of the class.

While Boyer has moved on to other projects that hold his interest, I can say there is absolutely zero difference in build quality between the Capricorn I had with Boyer's name on it and the 2009 boat I have that doesn't. Jim is amazingly talented. It is legitimate to say so. But you are simply wrong in your assertion that Jim's amicable departure has changed how AHPC makes boats or resulted in dropping the A-cat from their line-up because they are incapable of making one.


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." Ben Bernanke 2005
#205574 - 03/14/10 12:07 AM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Timbo]  
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Originally Posted by Timbo
Macca, is someone twisting your arm to force you to force your crap on the F16 Class?

Who's your daddy? How much is he paying you to spew? Better yet, how much of YOUR money have YOU SPENT on a new F16? What? You don't own one? Why? Too light?

Why do you give a frak what we do? Really, why?

Don't you have anything better to do than to come to the F16 site and peddal your BS?

Seriously?

Get a life.

The F16 class was and is doing fine without your help. Do you want me to lock you in a room with Wouter?


Timbo,

I have two men in masks standing over me right now with guns pointed at me. They tell me exactly what to say and I simply type away...



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#205575 - 03/14/10 01:09 AM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: macca]  
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AHPC have lost the capacity to build boats in AUS...... As they have shifted opperations offshore like many other boat builders because it is more cost efficient. Could yhey have the capacity to produce boats again, yes if they geared up for it and brought in the expertise but would you be willing to pay the $$$$ for the all AUS built boat. That's business and I am sure Greg plans to keep his busniess profitable and competitive in the market place.

As for a minimum weight Viper, yes it could be done, it would use a lot of Carbon, It would be significantly quicker, would cost more than an A class and no it would not be a financially viable product.

AHPC have produced an F16 complient boat, but their aim is to build the Viper class to a state where it would be a strong International class without the need of the F16 class to build it's numbers.

And no, I don't think anyone will come out with a 'fully optimised' F16 any time soon (because the investment will not be even close to the reward), but it is sure as hell possible.


#205576 - 03/14/10 02:15 AM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Buccaneer]  
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Originally Posted by Buccaneer
No I disagree and I think proof is in the pudding! Boyer was the boat builder of that operation and to my knowledge he has not been replaced and they have lost capacity. Has anyone actually weighed or even seen a new Taipan? cool Maybe they will UP the minimum weight for that class as well (already did once) or simple destroy the molds like they did with the 5.7. frown So yes it's my opinion that Goodall sails is incapable of producing Acats or even a Taipan (Kevlar option no longer available) much less an F16 at minimum weight. Again the proof is in the results. wink

As for all the talk of an all carbon F16 but that is a complete BS propaganda too in my opinion. Whom could they get to build it for them and at what price? And who's going to be stupid enough to build one out of carbon (besides Mecca) when they could just as easily build to minimum weight using a glass and Kevlar combination as Boyer developed for the Taipan?..cool Come on these are not Acats at 70kgs! Pure propaganda.... cool


Originally Posted by John Williams
Are we talking about the same AHPC? As someone who owns an AHPC product and someone who has raced both the Blade and the Viper against the best in the US, I find the Aussie boats to be the best-built production catamarans in the world. F18 weights are incredibly consistent and (as Macca notes) on the light side of the line every single boat I have seen since 2006. Greg says he chose to go a bit heavier on the Viper so it could be driven harder off the breeze. The boat is doing very well in the F16 fleet. This, IMO, is not indicative of "mediocrity" as you assert, but instead a design and build decision balanced between cost and benefit - which is a positive feature of the class.

While Boyer has moved on to other projects that hold his interest, I can say there is absolutely zero difference in build quality between the Capricorn I had with Boyer's name on it and the 2009 boat I have that doesn't. Jim is amazingly talented. It is legitimate to say so. But you are simply wrong in your assertion that Jim's amicable departure has changed how AHPC makes boats or resulted in dropping the A-cat from their line-up because they are incapable of making one.


You need to get you facts straight!!! We are 100% capable of producing a fully carbon F16 or an A class. I don't know who you are or how you think you are qualified to comment on our abilities. By your "proof in the pudding" comment we could deduce that we are unable to produce anything we don't already.

DO NOT make it appear we pushed the Tiapan association to Up the Weights. We stated that only a few boats are currently under weight and that the new boats wouldn't be lighter, and as Dazz stated the association voted in it. We DO NOT run the association.

Jim was NOT replaced.... he decided it was his time to engage in other projects. That is not the "political line" that is FACT. He left and the Hull production has now been moved off shore. We are producing more boats that we have every done before. Jim was a master boat builder but he did not have the capability to keep up with what we are producing now. I have all the official numbers to back this up.

As for the quality??? You better be careful otherwise somebody might mistake you for someone who knows what they are talking about. The quality now is as good as ever, and the consistency and accuracy is superb.

To finish; Building a Viper with Taipan technology... do you build boats??? Even design them???? Do you want to know why the VIPER is such a better F16 than the Tiapan?? It is hull Volume and it is the platform stiffness. Oh look these add weight... take them out to save weight and you end up back at the Taipan.

You clearly have a problem with the direction that AHPC has gone, I find this purely offensive because Greg Goodall does what he does out of the love of the sport. He has always been building and designing boats in the interest of the customers.
If you have an outstanding issue with AHPC please E-mail me and I will discuss it with you.

Thank you

Brett GOODALL

#205581 - 03/14/10 05:02 AM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE]  
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maybe I should go build the "ultimate F16" and show its no faster(in my hands) than the average F16..

I personally believe the F16 builders make quality products.. Apart from my boat that is.. But I build using what I'm comfortable with..

So what is the "ultimate F16"? the only real issue is the masts.. Im not convinced a mast can be light years ahead of AHCPs quality Ally wing.. So which mast is the best in your opinion?


As for final costs.. My time will be the biggest cost.. I don't charge out in small amounts..

#205583 - 03/14/10 05:11 AM Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Stewart]  
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Stewart,

How about we just look at your argument regarding Alloy v Carbon masts. Lets take the Tornado as an example. Its a perfect case study:-

The Alloy Tornado Masts were the highest quality you can buy but when the class allowed Carbon it was very clear that the Carbon masts were much quicker than the Alloy. So then to be competitive you had to have a carbon mast. Do you want that to happen in the F16?



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