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Re: safe sailing [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #208521
04/15/10 11:48 AM
04/15/10 11:48 AM
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Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
That being said Port always yields to Starboard Leeward or not.


Except when a port tack boat is entitled to mark room from a stbd tack boat; they are exonerated for making the stbd boat give way per Rule 18.5.

That situation happens frequently at the left-hand (looking upwind) gate mark.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: safe sailing [Re: mbounds] #208523
04/15/10 11:50 AM
04/15/10 11:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
That being said Port always yields to Starboard Leeward or not.


Except when a port tack boat is entitled to mark room from a stbd tack boat; they are exonerated for making the stbd boat give way per Rule 18.5.

That situation happens frequently at the left-hand (looking upwind) gate mark.


Yep, and a surprising number old salts still don't get that.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: safe sailing [Re: David Ingram] #208529
04/15/10 12:36 PM
04/15/10 12:36 PM
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Good point Matt. Also applies at downwind finishes.

Mike

Re: safe sailing [Re: mbounds] #208530
04/15/10 12:39 PM
04/15/10 12:39 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
That being said Port always yields to Starboard Leeward or not.


Except when a port tack boat is entitled to mark room from a stbd tack boat; they are exonerated for making the stbd boat give way per Rule 18.5.

That situation happens frequently at the left-hand (looking upwind) gate mark.


But room at the mark and becoming the ROW boat are 2 different things.Port gets room not rights.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: safe sailing [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #208537
04/15/10 02:17 PM
04/15/10 02:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Eric If you ever want to sail on one of those "fun" spin boats, let me know. You'd be more than welcome on mine.
Thanks for the offer! I'd love to hitch a ride on a spinnaker cat if and when the opportunity arises. I might get the chance to race at the Keowee Cup (if Joleen will excuse me from RC) and I always enjoy OPB sailing.

Regards,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: brucat] #208538
04/15/10 02:39 PM
04/15/10 02:39 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Eric has some excellent posts, especially number 208480 on Page 9
Awww, blush

Quote
Melges 24s “screaming” downwind (or on any other point of sail)… now THAT’S funny! And yes, I’ve been there, the only scary thing is the mass they carry if they collide at those “high” speeds…
Just because they're keelboats doesn't mean they can't move. At CRW last weekend, I saw a TP-52 doing 20kts downwind in 15kts breeze (of course, their spinnaker was bigger than a whole fleet of F-18s combined). Melges 24's carry a big asymmetric spin and they'll plane faster than the wind downwind. After watching them skip across the waves with 5 guys all standing at the transom, I have great respect for the boats and their sailors. When 15 of them meet at the leeward gate at the same time (5 rounding, 5 broaching, and the others trying madly to keep clear) it's quite a spectacle. At one point, I saw a boat lose it on the douse, broach, and round up (still broaching) right in front of another M-24. I was sure that the second boat was going down too, but somehow they managed to steer up hard, sail around the sideways boat, bear back down, douse, and make it through the gate without losing control in 25kts of wind. It was the most amazing display of seamanship I've ever witnessed.

Regards,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208543
04/15/10 04:35 PM
04/15/10 04:35 PM
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Well, if you're easily impressed by the 24s, you should see the 32s when it's blowing 18+ in the ocean.

Not to mention PUMA (VOR boat). That thing is scary fast, especially for its size...

Mike

Re: safe sailing [Re: brucat] #208546
04/15/10 05:35 PM
04/15/10 05:35 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Well, if you're easily impressed by the 24s, you should see the 32s when it's blowing 18+ in the ocean.
There were two Melges 32s on my course at CRW, but they were in PHRF C class and didn't come to my mark. I saw the IRC and PHRF A divisions. The RP-52 was pretty impressive, as was the Farr 60 that came last year.
Regards,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208549
04/15/10 07:11 PM
04/15/10 07:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
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Oh Ya ... there is nothing better then running down the Chesapeake Bay in the NASS Race in September chasing down the PHRF A0 boats like ZARRAFRA or DONNYBROOK in +20knts of breeze!!!!! I call it "the mice among the elephants" and the elephants are FAST!!!!

A.Kirby, Chris Allen along w/ several others on I/N20's have actually managed to make up the PHRF A0's 10min head start and pass them .... then it's run faster you fool, faster, faster ....

I was on TripleThreat(43'Tri) the year she started 5mins behind the PHRF A0 class ... ran down ZARRAFRA, climbed over ZARRAFRA's HUGE stern wake, and passed ZARRAFRA .... spray everywhere .... exciting!!!! Max boat speed was +22knts!!!! ... but we never caught DONNYBROOK .... updated Santa Cruz77 w/ a fantastic crew on board!!!!!

I say Todd .... Todd I say ... you've been there .... and on TripleThreat also ... ain't it a HOOT!!!!!

And .... no matter how small you are ... if you are the Right-a-Way Vessel, the PHRF A0 boats follow the rules ....

Learn the RRS's .... Know the RRS's .... follow the RRS's!!!!

Harry

Re: safe sailing [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #208553
04/15/10 07:41 PM
04/15/10 07:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
flumpmaster Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
That being said Port always yields to Starboard Leeward or not.


Except when a port tack boat is entitled to mark room from a stbd tack boat; they are exonerated for making the stbd boat give way per Rule 18.5.

That situation happens frequently at the left-hand (looking upwind) gate mark.


But room at the mark and becoming the ROW boat are 2 different things.Port gets room not rights.


I don't follow you. When you enter the 3 boat length circle on port at the left gate (looking upwind) you have inside overlap on starboard and are the right of way boat at that time.

I agree with Dave Ingram - a suprising number of old salts don't understand this and when you bellow 'room' that start hollering 'starboard', then 'protest'.


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: safe sailing [Re: flumpmaster] #208556
04/15/10 07:59 PM
04/15/10 07:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
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Originally Posted by flumpmaster
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
That being said Port always yields to Starboard Leeward or not.


Except when a port tack boat is entitled to mark room from a stbd tack boat; they are exonerated for making the stbd boat give way per Rule 18.5.

That situation happens frequently at the left-hand (looking upwind) gate mark.


But room at the mark and becoming the ROW boat are 2 different things.Port gets room not rights.


I don't follow you. When you enter the 3 boat length circle on port at the left gate (looking upwind) you have inside overlap on starboard and are the right of way boat at that time.
I agree with Dave Ingram - a suprising number of old salts don't understand this and when you bellow 'room' that start hollering 'starboard', then 'protest'.



You do not have "right of way"; you have mark room. That's all.

You have ROOM to round the mark.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: safe sailing [Re: flumpmaster] #208558
04/15/10 08:31 PM
04/15/10 08:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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Yep,

Mr Bounds had me "going" for a few moments there also, confusing me w/ rule #'s ... until I stopped and closed my eyes to visualize the scenerio ... so here's how I handle this situation being the port vessel ....

First Hail: I will have a "INSIDE OVERLAP, and will need room at the mark" (I do this just before reaching 'the zone'... this notifies the starboard vessel that I believe that this meeting is NOT a port-starb meeting/situation ... but a mark rounding and rule 18 will apply IMO)

Second Hail: "Room at the Mark" (this hail is made when I reach 'the zone' and starboard does not seem to be leaving me any or enough room to round the mark)

Please note that I try NOT to make a gate rounding like this as it means you have to make a 360* turn .... slow,slow,slow ...... I try to exit on the same tack as I start the rounding if possible, a 270* turn !!!! Usually faster .... so this means that you need to plan ahead as you approach the gate .... I generally try to aim for the "focal point" of the gate as I approach, so that I can use either side of the gate at the last moment as required

Now if I'm the starboard tack vessel here's what I'll do ... shift over 1.5 boat widths by heading extra deep for a moment and it also slows me down ... let the port tacker pass ahead ... come in wide, exit tight thereby gaining a "inside overlap" upon exiting the mark (hopefully) ... now I control the situation as I GRIND ever so slowly (and painfully for them)over the other boat ..... or I just be patient and drive them up past the layline ....

But I start w/ alittle communication .....

(I'm such a nasty b*st*rd .....hee,hee,hee)

Harry

Re: safe sailing [Re: pgp] #208559
04/15/10 08:33 PM
04/15/10 08:33 PM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



Originally Posted by pgp
Fwiw, my intentions in starting this thread was to prevent someone getting a punctured lung from a spin pole.


great thread, thanks for starting it..

ps -

Re: safe sailing [Re: ] #208566
04/15/10 09:11 PM
04/15/10 09:11 PM
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Posts: 3,969
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"I don't follow you. When you enter the 3 boat length circle on port at the left gate (looking upwind) you have inside overlap on starboard and are the right of way boat at that time."

The key words here are MARK ROOM, no longer right of way. This was a change in 2009, I believe. It's essentially a technicality and doesn't really change how we really play the game.

As it was explained to me at a North U seminar (by an A-Cup International Umpire), it was mainly to keep from conflicting with other rules, which had been creating some odd protest scenarios.

Mike

Re: safe sailing [Re: scooby_simon] #208567
04/15/10 09:13 PM
04/15/10 09:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Originally Posted by flumpmaster
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mbounds
[quote=Team_Cat_Fever]That being said Port always yields to Starboard Leeward or not.


Except when a port tack boat is entitled to mark room from a stbd tack boat; they are exonerated for making the stbd boat give way per Rule 18.5.

That situation happens frequently at the left-hand (looking upwind) gate mark.


But room at the mark and becoming the ROW boat are 2 different things.Port gets room not rights.


I don't follow you. When you enter the 3 boat length circle on port at the left gate (looking upwind) you have inside overlap on starboard and are the right of way boat at that time.
I agree with Dave Ingram - a suprising number of old salts don't understand this and when you bellow 'room' that start hollering 'starboard', then 'protest'.

Quote


You do not have "right of way"; you have mark room. That's all.

You have ROOM to round the mark.


That's it! I guess I wasn't clear enough for that Texanbrit or Limey Texan or whatever he is.
By the way Chris, I'm trying like he77 to sell your marstrom for you.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: safe sailing [Re: ] #208568
04/15/10 09:14 PM
04/15/10 09:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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only one hull. doesn't matter... though it is a sweet wipe out

Re: safe sailing [Re: brucat] #208572
04/15/10 10:17 PM
04/15/10 10:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by brucat
The key words here are MARK ROOM, no longer right of way. This was a change in 2009, I believe. It's essentially a technicality and doesn't really change how we really play the game.
That is correct. In the previous rules, if rule 18 conflicted with a rule of Section A, then that rule no longer applied. In the current rule 18, the part A rules still apply, but a boat entitled to mark-room is exonerated for breaking them.

This was done because the change of right-of-way at the mark confused a lot of people. The authors of the new rules took pains to change the game as little as possible, and although I still have some misgivings about the new wordings, I'm growing more comfortable with them.

Regards,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208584
04/16/10 05:42 AM
04/16/10 05:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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[Linked Image]

And you think you've got a blind spot, Pete?

Re: safe sailing [Re: mbounds] #208585
04/16/10 06:46 AM
04/16/10 06:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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LB: "What's he doing??"

WB: "Where'd he go?"

Crew on both, prior to impact: "I think we're clear..."

After impact" "I TOLD you to Duck him!"

Last edited by Timbo; 04/16/10 06:47 AM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: safe sailing [Re: Timbo] #208590
04/16/10 07:41 AM
04/16/10 07:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
LB: "What's he doing??"

WB: "Where'd he go?"

Crew on both, prior to impact: "I think we're clear..."

After impact" "I TOLD you to Duck him!"


Actually - that's a port-stbd situation - as shown. Downwind boat on stbd has the ROW.

However, downwind boat is in the middle of a jibe which would make him the GW boat. He also looks about ready to broach - skip's got the helm over hard, trying to get the boat back under the chute.

Last edited by mbounds; 04/16/10 07:44 AM.
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