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Re: safe sailing [Re: mbounds] #208190
04/13/10 12:35 PM
04/13/10 12:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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Gentlemen,

There are TWO basic rules in the RRS that supersede all other rules:

1) Competitors are required to render ANY and ALL Assistence needed to anyone (or vessel) in distress!!!

2) ALL COLLISONS are to be avoided !!!!

Any questions .... anyone????

Mike/Brucat is quite correct in his interpitation of the rules and his philosophy towards the rules ... no matter who THINKS they have the "Right of Way" in the final analysis a "Captain's" responsibility is .... SAFETY!!!!! Not to win or even finish the race.

FIRST ... LAST ... ALWAYS SAFETY !!!!!

So ... if you are the "RoW" vessel, avoid the collison, hail "Protest" ... and if they do not do their penalty, bring them in front of the "Protest Committee" ... remember the "RoW" vessel gets to determine what is "Too Close" ....

Harry

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: safe sailing [Re: Smiths_Cat] #208199
04/13/10 02:09 PM
04/13/10 02:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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how about a REALLY REALLY offset mark!

Re: safe sailing [Re: PTP] #208201
04/13/10 02:16 PM
04/13/10 02:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by PTP
how about a REALLY REALLY offset mark!


That's would then be "B mark".


Jake Kohl
Re: safe sailing [Re: Smiths_Cat] #208205
04/13/10 02:35 PM
04/13/10 02:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Smiths_Cat
The answer is: back to triangle courses. Or any non up-down course. It is also more fun.


No, and no it's not.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: safe sailing [Re: Smiths_Cat] #208209
04/13/10 03:06 PM
04/13/10 03:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Originally Posted by Smiths_Cat
The answer is: back to triangle courses. Or any non up-down course. It is also more fun.


you didn't watch race 2 of the Americas cup then?


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: safe sailing [Re: brucat] #208217
04/13/10 04:21 PM
04/13/10 04:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
I respectfully disagree that it is possible to change RRS 11 with the SIs. RRS 86.1(b) states the specific rules that cannot be changed by SIs, and that refers to 86.1(a) which includes all Part 2 rules. And, RRS 11 is in Part 2.


This is entirely correct. I was about to say the same thing until I came across this post. I'm not going to quote further, but I agree with everything else Mike said as well.

If you really, really want to change the basic right-of-way rules, you could claim you are testing proposed rule changes under RRS 86.3, but then US SAILING limits you to local races unless you get their prior written permission for each event (and other restrictions apply).

Regards,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge,
Member Area D Appeals Committee

Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208252
04/13/10 09:18 PM
04/13/10 09:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Also,

You can't just change it for the F16's and then expect all the other classes that share the same race course to abide by your rules. You can't have different classes of boats using different right of way rules on the same body of water at the same time. THATS dangerous.


Re: safe sailing [Re: ThunderMuffin] #208254
04/13/10 09:30 PM
04/13/10 09:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I thought he was talking about any spinnaker boats, not just F16's?

The "avoid collision at all costs" should cover it though.


Blade F16
#777
Re: safe sailing [Re: Timbo] #208255
04/13/10 09:53 PM
04/13/10 09:53 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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that comment was in regards to:

Quote
I'll bring this matter up with the F16 class, those of you interested can PM me and I'll keep you in the loop.


this.

Re: safe sailing [Re: ThunderMuffin] #208261
04/13/10 11:24 PM
04/13/10 11:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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One of the main reasons that the weather (or offset) mark is a dangerous place with spinnaker boats is that the crews are so busy hoisting the kite and adjusting things, they may be more likely to take their eyes off the road.

While this won't fix all the problems, one major help here is to have a separate (longer) weather mark (and offset) for the spinnaker boats. Won't help much in a 50-boat spinnaker fleet, but will help a ton in mixed fleets.

There are other issues that can happen elsewhere on the course that cannot be easily addressed with rule changes. The primary one is spinnaker boats on the edge of control when it's blowing like stink. They have to bear off (a lot sometimes), which can be unexpected for boats going upwind.

Anyway, I'm tired but my point is that I emphasize with this issue, and didn't want to sound preachy in my prior post. But, as others have mentioned, the worst thing on a course (for all of us) is any boat that is sailing around, knowing that they can't see. At that point, snuff the spinnaker, or buy a boat that you can actually control. smile

Mike

Re: safe sailing [Re: mbounds] #208287
04/14/10 07:36 AM
04/14/10 07:36 AM
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Posts: 334
Thunder Bay ON CAN
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mmadge Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds
What Pete is looking for is something like what they use in iceboating, where the windward boat has the right of way when going off the wind (freedom to bear away in a puff).

It is possible to change Rule 11 in the SIs, although I've never seen the language they use for iceboating.

I think it opens up a whole new can of worms - that doesn't need opening. I've seen (and been in) a few close calls, but usually it's between a boat going upwind and a boat going downwind.

This would not prevent port / starboard situations from occurring between upwind / downwind boats, which is where most of the danger comes from.


The other thing Ice Boats have experimented with is having Darling marks on the course.Prevents boats from rounding weather mark and gybing right away onto starboard.Also prevents boats from coming in right on the port tack layline,or coming in hot on the starboard layline downwind.

Re: safe sailing [Re: mmadge] #208291
04/14/10 07:58 AM
04/14/10 07:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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That's what an offset mark is - and we already have them......


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: safe sailing [Re: Timbo] #208292
04/14/10 08:06 AM
04/14/10 08:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16
KenReid Offline
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Hi group,
Rules are rules, and when you change them I think that alone can cause trouble-Geeze in this regatta do I yield or not? You can either sail a triangle that sometimes turns into a simple drag race, or follow the rules and yield,change course, drop the spin, whatever it takes to keep clear of a boat that has rights. Common sense also rules-if you are in last place in your class and six spin boats are screaming into the mark-maybe the prudent thing to do is swing a little wide.Been there done that while snaking about trying to figure that wild thing out.
Regards to all.
Ken

Re: safe sailing [Re: Jalani] #208300
04/14/10 09:16 AM
04/14/10 09:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 334
Thunder Bay ON CAN
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mmadge Offline
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Originally Posted by Jalani
That's what an offset mark is - and we already have them......


No, Darling marks are not just offset marks.The weather Darling mark is placed down wind and to the right (looking upwind) of the weather mark.The leeward darling is placed upwind and to the left of the leeward mark.You are not allowed to sail between the mark(called turning bouy) and darling mark.
Keep in mind Ice boats are going 40-70 M.P.H.,when you have a collision you are losing more then just gelcoat.


Last edited by mmadge; 04/14/10 09:45 AM.
Re: safe sailing [Re: mmadge] #208309
04/14/10 10:11 AM
04/14/10 10:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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so the darling marks are basically offset marks but on the approach to the mark - not on the departure side?


Jake Kohl
Re: safe sailing [Re: Jake] #208312
04/14/10 10:18 AM
04/14/10 10:18 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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The way I'm reading it - which may be wrong, wouldn't that eliminate the port layline approach to the windward mark?

Re: safe sailing [Re: Jake] #208314
04/14/10 10:20 AM
04/14/10 10:20 AM
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Posts: 334
Thunder Bay ON CAN
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mmadge Offline
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Yes but they acomplish two thinks.By always passing the darling marks on the left,you avoid having boats crash in on the laylines,and you also avoid having boats tack or gybe after rounding a mark.
Not suggesting this for soft water sailing (probably too much work for race commitee),but it really avoids head on collisions,especially important when sailing ice boat angles.

Re: safe sailing [Re: mmadge] #208316
04/14/10 10:34 AM
04/14/10 10:34 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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how about someone who port tacks the layline to the windward mark and who is ducking the left side darling mark with a windward spinnaker boat rounding it?

Same situation happens just at a different mark.

Re: safe sailing [Re: Jake] #208318
04/14/10 10:38 AM
04/14/10 10:38 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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Michigan
yeah, I know...
This sport isn't completely 100% safe and never will be. As much as anyone messes with the windward mark- with offsets, "pre" offsets before the mark there is still the rest of the course. Driving at spring fever required a lot of situational awareness. It only takes one head in the boat moment dealing with a fouled jib sheet/downhaul/rotator to lose that awareness. I still have those moments of "crap, I just gybed and I am not sure I really checked my 6 o'clock."
anyway... we all gotta trust each other and maintain as much situational awareness as possible.

Re: safe sailing [Re: PTP] #208319
04/14/10 10:42 AM
04/14/10 10:42 AM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



Originally Posted by PTP
yeah, I know...
This sport isn't completely 100% safe and never will be. As much as anyone messes with the windward mark- with offsets, "pre" offsets before the mark there is still the rest of the course. Driving at spring fever required a lot of situational awareness. It only takes one head in the boat moment dealing with a fouled jib sheet/downhaul/rotator to lose that awareness. I still have those moments of "crap, I just gybed and I am not sure I really checked my 6 o'clock."
anyway... we all gotta trust each other and maintain as much situational awareness as possible.


as a guy who races only a few times a year (and have only skippered 1 time)... it might be beneficial to have a "newbee skippers meeting" pre or post the regular skippers meetings at events to go over some rules/situations to be esp on the look out for. I admit i know few only a few rules, and much of what was said here is over my head...

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