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#208490 - 04/15/10 08:50 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Jake]  
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NCSUtrey Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Based on where we're at with the age of the N20 sail plan:

1) Sail design improvement over what we have for a 2 to 5% (heck, maybe even 7% in some conditions) gain may well be a simple push-button science for sailmakers with the right equipment and experience.

2) Sail design for the last 1 to 2% of the speed potential is an art form and requires an influx of resources on an ever increasing exponential curve.

3) I have this sneaky suspicion that deep down you guys are eaten up with this "must beat the F18" mantra. I believe that there are some incorrect conclusions that are feeding this emotion and I think it's a bit of a short sited view. First; the one time the F18 has shown a strong advantage is last year's Tybee 500 on the several days of tight spinnaker reaching. There's no doubt that the N20 has an achilles heal here with the very full kite and main and the gobs of sail area. However, around the cans, the F18 (the boat) is still not beating the N20 (the boat) in most conditions. Granted, it's been about 1.5 years since I dialed up on a start line against one, but it wasn't that long ago that Nigel on his F18 was following me and my rookie crew around the race course for too many laps on more than one occasion and one event (I used to stink at getting the course number...now I can't count laps damnit).

Let's make sure we all have the right reasons in mind here for this sail change. If you want to do it to beat the F18, you guys can have all of that on your own. Just open up the sail plans and be done with it - it's an exercise that will serve to fracture a class that has survived to this point based on a very different philosophy. If you want the sail change to increase the class's marketability with an outward appearnce of a gently and thoughtfully "refreshed" sail plan that makes the boat a little more manageable on the race course then I'm all with you. Keep in mind that if you make some huge leap, you're obsoleting all legacy boats and sailors who don't have the jack for $3200 worth of new sails. You know that phrase they use in Texas about that famous fort that fell during the Texas Revolution? Well... "Remember the 6.0".

Let's not make this so complicated that we can't figure out which end of the gun the bullet comes out of.


Jake, I agree 100% with you here. This is a one-design class, why are we setting the F-18 as the benchmark?

Let's look at costs:

Of all the top F-18 sailors in the world, which lofts do most get their sails from? Are they the small, local, lofts? Or are they big, well-known (nationally and internationally) lofts with loads of experience and followers? (Think Ullman-Zuccoli, Performance Sails, even E/P)...
Do you think those lofts sell sails at a big discount? Absolutely not! Their sails come at a premium....

Let's look at R&D:

Nacra has agreed to let us update the sails over a rollout period. Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel overnight? E/P, just as well as any other loft, knows that needs to be done to update the sail plan-they just need permission from Nacra to do that. We are in the process of getting that 'formal' permission. It has to be a stepped plan though, not an all-at-once kind of event.

Sail design is not what is holding most of us back.

-- Have You Seen This? --
#208495 - 04/15/10 09:04 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Jake]  
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Originally Posted by Jake
Based on where we're at with the age of the N20 sail plan:

1) Sail design improvement over what we have for a 2 to 5% (heck, maybe even 7% in some conditions) gain may well be a simple push-button science for sailmakers with the right equipment and experience.

2) Sail design for the last 1 to 2% of the speed potential is an art form and requires an influx of resources on an ever increasing exponential curve.

3) I have this sneaky suspicion that deep down you guys are eaten up with this "must beat the F18" mantra. I believe that there are some incorrect conclusions that are feeding this emotion and I think it's a bit of a short sited view. First; the one time the F18 has shown a strong advantage is last year's Tybee 500 on the several days of tight spinnaker reaching. There's no doubt that the N20 has an achilles heal here with the very full kite and main and the gobs of sail area. However, around the cans, the F18 (the boat) is still not beating the N20 (the boat) in most conditions. Granted, it's been about 1.5 years since I dialed up on a start line against one, but it wasn't that long ago that Nigel on his F18 was following me and my rookie crew around the race course for too many laps on more than one occasion and one event (I used to stink at getting the course number...now I can't count laps damnit).

Let's make sure we all have the right reasons in mind here for this sail change. If you want to do it to beat the F18, you guys can have all of that on your own. Just open up the sail plans and be done with it - it's an exercise that will serve to fracture a class that has survived to this point based on a very different philosophy. If you want the sail change to increase the class's marketability with an outward appearnce of a gently and thoughtfully "refreshed" sail plan that makes the boat a little more manageable on the race course then I'm all with you. Keep in mind that if you make some huge leap, you're obsoleting all legacy boats and sailors who don't have the jack for $3200 worth of new sails. You know that phrase they use in Texas about that famous fort that fell during the Texas Revolution? Well... "Remember the 6.0".


Pt.3) As a whole, I agree with you,but...
The Tybee was not the first recognition of F18/N20, the Great Texas 300 saw it before that, it's not an anomaly.
If we are finally getting the sailplan updated after 12 years, rather it be SMOD or open lofts, why not go for all the cookies. A mediocre upgrade totally defeats the purpose. It ISN"T as complicated as everyone is trying to make it sound. Like Philip said "It ain't rocket science" but , if we are going through the trouble now and may have to wait another decade for another chance (SMOD route)let's get the best we can.
On a side note there has been a small resurgence of 6.0 sailors who modded their boats with sq. tops and flatter jibs and kites. They seemed to have gained some traction, so PC cali. comes out with a new ruleset for the 6.0 after they had abandoned them. Apparently the 6.0 sailors laughed it off.

And speaking of being abandoned the NACRA 20 is not on the pricelist as a current class boat. That's how it died for the P19, Nacra 5.8 and Nacra 6.0. So think about that when your blindly putting your trust in the factory for sail innovation.Seems to me with the success of the Infusion,the introduction of the new F20,and the fact that PC is now European owned, where there is no Nacra20 class to speak of, that their incentive to help us is pretty small, even when it comes to the sale of new sails.



"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
#208498 - 04/15/10 09:16 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever]  
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a bit off topic but the 49'er olympic team presented at our sail club last night. He stated that a new 49'er all up was about $35k (sans trailer/box, etc) and here's what he said about sails:

- new main/jib every other regatta - $4500
- new spin every regatta - $1100

Is THIS what the olympic committee deems "affordable" for the purposes of selecting a class of boat that every nation can use to put forth a team?

If so, how do these figures compare to an olympic tornado?



Jay

#208501 - 04/15/10 09:24 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: NCSUtrey]  
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Originally Posted by NCSUtrey
[

Jake, I agree 100% with you here. This is a one-design class, why are we setting the F-18 as the benchmark?

Let's look at costs:

Of all the top F-18 sailors in the world, which lofts do most get their sails from? Are they the small, local, lofts? Or are they big, well-known (nationally and internationally) lofts with loads of experience and followers? (Think Ullman-Zuccoli, Performance Sails, even E/P)...
Do you think those lofts sell sails at a big discount? Absolutely not! Their sails come at a premium....

Let's look at R&D:

Nacra has agreed to let us update the sails over a rollout period. Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel overnight? E/P, just as well as any other loft, knows that needs to be done to update the sail plan-they just need permission from Nacra to do that. We are in the process of getting that 'formal' permission. It has to be a stepped plan though, not an all-at-once kind of event.

Sail design is not what is holding most of us back.


Trey, do you honestly believe that the "premium" you pay for a current cutting edge sail is going to be more than what your paying now for your 12 yr old technology sail. It's Not!

Your look at R&D doesn't say anything about R&D, did I miss something?

I'm not opposed to the SMOD approach, I just don't believe it's the best for the class. Jake said, SMOD has kept the class alive this long, I feel the class has stayed alive this long despite SMOD. A continued SMOD approach will just bring on more decline, the sail upgrade may slow this ,but decline will continue. As far as upgrading sails making people uncompetitive, be realistic, If your not buying spins every year and a main every 2or3 years you're not competitive anyway. That's racing at any top level.

Trey, Thanks for your effort on this. I want the same as you, we just have different approaches to the same ends.

Last edited by Team_Cat_Fever; 04/15/10 09:31 AM.

"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
#208522 - 04/15/10 10:50 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever]  
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Mike Hill Offline
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We have to be careful. I do think that moving to the new sail plan could be a class killer. There are very few of us that campaign our boats actively. There are a lot more people that sail in 2-3 local regattas a year. They might have a 3 year old main but as little as they sail it's still just fine.

These are the people that we could drive out of the class. They aren't willing to spend $1850 on a new main or 3500 on a new set of sails for 2-3 regattas. They also are not willing to go to a regatta and be uncompetitive. So we basically run the risk of losing these people.

It's very easy to piss people off. Those people will move classes if they feel like they are outgunned or out spent by other teams.

I'm in the middle. I think a nice staged and announced course of action would be good. We have to have a proposal and a vote. This would ensure that we all are heard. Also we don't want a vote with 4 options. Only 2 options at a time so we don't have split vote issues.

I don't want to see the sails opened up for many reasons.
1. The factory won't support it so we now are responsible to hold our own Nationals separate from the factory. This would not work with too few boats. We have to be included with the other boats to make the numbers work for a Nationals.
2. We bring in the fact that money can buy wins with newly designed sails that are faster.
3. We drive the weekend sailors out of the class because it's too expensive to compete on a level playing field.
4. We don't have anybody with the time or ability to measure all of these sails. It took the F18 years to get measurement in place and it's still hard to pull off.

I think we need to have a small group of three people (bouy, distance, Weekend) to hash out a plan talking among themselves then have someone talk to the factory and
Skip to come up with a plan. After coming up with an exact plan they should put it to a vote for the boat owners.

But you still run the risk of splintering the class.



Mike Hill
N20 #1005
#208524 - 04/15/10 10:53 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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Olympic costs are always higher than any normal sailor is willing to pay. I'm sure top Tornado teams would have new spins at least every 2 regattas and new mains/jibs every 4 regattas, something along that line. These guys buy enough sails in one year to pay for a new boat, and then buy a new boat every year anyway. The Tornado was an exception in this regard, with 5 year old boats competitive with brand new ones on an Olympic scale. It was honestly one of the cheaper boats to campaign (there is a long article about this on the web, I don't have the link offhand).

Back to the topic at hand, I agree with everything Jake is saying. I believe Trey was saying that you pay more for a Performance/Glaser/Ullman sail than the same sail built at a local loft, because the name brand sails have a reputation behind them that they are fast, not that these sails will cost more than what we are currently paying.

As far as boat on boat testing, Jake is absolutely correct that we don't need boat on boat testing get a 5% performance gain, but it can't hurt. If the class is opposed, we don't have to do this.

Timeline: I don't see why we can't get a new spin Q1 2011 and a new main AND jib Q2 2012. This makes the development a 2 year timeline, which is much better than a 3 year timeline imo, even if it costs more in outlay in 2 years time (buy two sails instead of one). It also make more sense, as people generally replace the main and jib at the same time, and both sails are linked together (flow wise) when sailing to windward, and even to some extent downwind (although the spin is more important).


F18 Infusion
#208526 - 04/15/10 11:20 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Mike Hill]  
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David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Mike Hill

I don't want to see the sails opened up for many reasons.
1. The factory won't support it so we now are responsible to hold our own Nationals separate from the factory. This would not work with too few boats. We have to be included with the other boats to make the numbers work for a Nationals.



Too late, Racine will be the second Performance Nationals where non performance boats were on the course. It's not the end of the world. Besides there are 3 formula classes that host their class nationals without any factory support. Factory support is over rated especially when they insist on telling you how to run your class.

Originally Posted by Mike Hill


2. We bring in the fact that money can buy wins with newly designed sails that are faster.



True, sort of, but I think this is still a bit of a red hearing, even when people moved from the Nacra F18 to the Infusion we still didn't see a dramatic change in results. Yes, the new stuff is better but the argument is by how much, and is it a class killer?

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

3. We drive the weekend sailors out of the class because it's too expensive to compete on a level playing field.


No matter what you do there will always be those that spend more, work harder and become untouchable, you can't control that with class rules.

Originally Posted by Mike Hill


4. We don't have anybody with the time or ability to measure all of these sails. It took the F18 years to get measurement in place and it's still hard to pull off.


This one is off the charts bogus! It didn't take the F18 class years to get measurement in place it took years for the right a$$hole to fall into the job and say "it's a class rule and we are doing it". I also have to say I've been impressed by the F18 fleet members and their commitment to this goal. Serious kudo's to our volunteers!




David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#208527 - 04/15/10 11:33 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Mike Hill]  
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Originally Posted by Mike Hill
We have to be careful. I do think that moving to the new sail plan could be a class killer. There are very few of us that campaign our boats actively. There are a lot more people that sail in 2-3 local regattas a year. They might have a 3 year old main but as little as they sail it's still just fine.

These are the people that we could drive out of the class. They aren't willing to spend $1850 on a new main or 3500 on a new set of sails for 2-3 regattas. They also are not willing to go to a regatta and be uncompetitive. So we basically run the risk of losing these people. These folks won't be competitive in a year anyway.

It's very easy to piss people off. Those people will move classes if they feel like they are outgunned or out spent by other teams. What class are they going to spend less in that's a viable class?

I'm in the middle. I think a nice staged and announced course of action would be good. We have to have a proposal and a vote. This would ensure that we all are heard. Also we don't want a vote with 4 options. Only 2 options at a time so we don't have split vote issues.

I don't want to see the sails opened up for many reasons.
1. The factory won't support it so we now are responsible to hold our own Nationals separate from the factory. This would not work with too few boats. We have to be included with the other boats to make the numbers work for a Nationals.What does the factory do now, besides give a little cash to the host club?
2. We bring in the fact that money can buy wins with newly designed sails that are faster.I want to be faster, don't you?
3. We drive the weekend sailors out of the class because it's too expensive to compete on a level playing field. I reiterate they probably weren't competitive to begin with.
4. We don't have anybody with the time or ability to measure all of these sails. It took the F18 years to get measurement in place and it's still hard to pull off. We do and we can, it's a matter of whether the class as a whole is too lazy to do anything about it.

I think we need to have a small group of three people (bouy, distance, Weekend) to hash out a plan talking among themselves then have someone talk to the factory and
Skip to come up with a plan. After coming up with an exact plan they should put it to a vote for the boat owners. This has already happened with ONE person,Trey, (I applaud his effort) and he has a plan. I think all owners should be involved ,hence the google group to try and keep everyone in the loop.

But you still run the risk of splintering the class.


The class is dieing,that's obvious.

The way the class rules are set now. You don't get a vote until there are more than 50 boat owners registered and paid in the class association.
By your logic you want to inhibit the class to the lowest common denminator, I have no interest in that. I think the fault in that logic lies in that the people can't or won't spend the money will go to another class. The other classes they will go to are more expensive, unless you want the N20 to become like a Hobie 18( nothing wrong with that just not fast and current ). It has been a cutting edge fast boat , and it would be a shame to let that go for the unmotivated sector in the class.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
#208533 - 04/15/10 12:07 PM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever]  
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I had this buried in another one of my posts and I think it deserves discussion, so I'm putting it here on it's own. We need to rely on ourselves not the factory.
Quote
And speaking of being abandoned the NACRA 20 is not on the pricelist as a current class boat. That's how it died for the P19, Nacra 5.8 and Nacra 6.0. So think about that when your blindly putting your trust in the factory for sail innovation.Seems to me with the success of the Infusion,the introduction of the new F20,and the fact that PC is now European owned, where there is no Nacra20 class to speak of, that their incentive to help us is pretty small, even when it comes to the sale of new sails.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
#208707 - 04/16/10 01:44 PM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever]  
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Naples, FL
I have long since forgotten where the post was about reefing/shortening sail, but is there any reason someone couldn't mount a second mast hook somewhere around the hounds so that if conditions warrant, you could lower the main to the second (lower) hook and attach the downhaul and outhaul to (pre-positioned) reef eyes on the main?

Do the mainsails these days move that much away from a rotating mast track as to get a hole punched in them if you mounted a hook in this fashion? I've never seen the main enter the mast track at an obtuse angle unless the rotator was stuck (by overrotation or some other means)on the wrong side or something like that..

What say you?


Jay

#208711 - 04/16/10 02:29 PM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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You wouldn't be able to get enough halyard tension in the lowered position , thereby not be able to depower the main as much as downhaul,outhaul and rotation all ready allow. There are many posts referencing this.If it gets so hairy that I need to reef the main ,it comes all the way down. This has only happened to me a couple of times.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
#208802 - 04/18/10 06:52 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever]  
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


The class is dieing,that's obvious.

The way the class rules are set now. You don't get a vote until there are more than 50 boat owners registered and paid in the class association.
By your logic you want to inhibit the class to the lowest common denminator, I have no interest in that. I think the fault in that logic lies in that the people can't or won't spend the money will go to another class. The other classes they will go to are more expensive, unless you want the N20 to become like a Hobie 18( nothing wrong with that just not fast and current ). It has been a cutting edge fast boat , and it would be a shame to let that go for the unmotivated sector in the class.


I don't believe it's that obvious that the class is dying. Yes, it took a big hit when a lot of sailors leapt to F18 but my perception is that the class has stabilized a little and actually grown slightly (thanks in part to Trey bringing on several new teams)...but we were the 3rd largest class at Tradewinds (16 waves, 14 F18s, and 12 20's) and still draw a very significant Nationals fleet while we've seen other classes come and go. Perhaps things do feel a little tenuous but I don't agree that we're "dying". I also wouldn't call the sector that is hesitant about a sail change "unmotivated" ... more like "cautious". If the class is on on a precipice facing decline, the wrong move here could throw it in the abyss of extinction easily. Remember the 6.0.



Jake Kohl
#208804 - 04/18/10 06:59 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Jake]  
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The boat isn't available on the pricelist. The head in the sand thing isn't going to change that. The new teams are the SAME boats with different owners . To grow new boats would have to be taken into the fold.
The class had a drop when F-18 first came out, then some of them came back, now we are having another drop. It may just be a cycle, but I have to disagree with you in that , now IS the time to do something.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
#208834 - 04/18/10 09:19 PM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever]  
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I don't understand WHY you keep bringing up this pricelist issue Todd.

Does it indicate that the factory has decided to let the class die and that they wont be marketing the boat anymore?

I mean, all it means to me is that - if you want a Nacra 20, your dealer is going to have to call Nacra to get a price on it.

#208835 - 04/18/10 09:49 PM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: ThunderMuffin]  
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samc99us Offline
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The F20 isn't on the U.S price list either. Does this mean the F20 is a dieing class as well?

In all fairness, Todd is right that there haven't been many purchases of new N20's in the U.S in recent memory and this is a sign that they aren't going to be commonly available NEW in the near future. No new boat sails means no fleet growth. While the 20's have a decent showing at select regattas, the numbers simply don't compare with the 18's which are growing at a very fast pace across the country and North America; I doubt the 20 will ever catch up to this. We as a class need to actively recruit guys that are on the heavy side for an 18; in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.

Last edited by samc99us; 04/18/10 09:50 PM.

F18 Infusion
#208847 - 04/19/10 07:04 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us]  
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Originally Posted by samc99us
The F20 isn't on the U.S price list either. Does this mean the F20 is a dieing class as well?

In all fairness, Todd is right that there haven't been many purchases of new N20's in the U.S in recent memory and this is a sign that they aren't going to be commonly available NEW in the near future. No new boat sails means no fleet growth. While the 20's have a decent showing at select regattas, the numbers simply don't compare with the 18's which are growing at a very fast pace across the country and North America; I doubt the 20 will ever catch up to this. We as a class need to actively recruit guys that are on the heavy side for an 18; in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.


Nope, Straight from Jack Youngs mouth, I was told it wasn't targeted for the US and won't be on the market here.That was a few months after he told me they wouldn't be building another 20 footer, so the info is suspect at best. Anymore smartass deductions?


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
#208848 - 04/19/10 07:06 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us]  
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.



Schedule???

Sam...you seem to confuse 50 guys who own the same boat and happen to show up at the same event... with 50 class members who have agreed on a goal, mapped out a direction, published a schedule and are committed to making it happen.

Keith's questions about the class direction have not been answered.


crac.sailregattas.com
#208849 - 04/19/10 07:07 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: ThunderMuffin]  
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Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Originally Posted by Undecided
I don't understand WHY you keep bringing up this pricelist issue Todd.

Does it indicate that the factory has decided to let the class die and that they wont be marketing the boat anymore?

That's exactly what it means. Learn from your history, even if you weren't involved.

I keep bringing it up to reiterate the fact that a large chunk of you, seem more than willing to put your trust in a factory that for all intents and purposes wants you to get rid of your boat and buy an Infusion or an F20.Why count on them , we should count on us, the owners, for innovation and success.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
#208850 - 04/19/10 07:08 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever]  
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David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

Anymore smartass deductions?


Mornin Sunshine. Oh and happy F!@#in Monday to you too.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#208851 - 04/19/10 07:12 AM Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: David Ingram]  
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Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Hey Cupcake!


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
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