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The Unspoken PFD Conundrum #209193
04/22/10 11:48 AM
04/22/10 11:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Ok. It has been well over a year since a protest in a Junior event in California over a CE-approved PFD resulted in a sternly-worded warning to a sailor in lieu of disqualification. For those of you who mightn't have heard, there was a US qualifying event for the ISAF Youth Worlds at ABYC. At the beginning of the event, one little girl said to another that if she was going to wear her CE-approved PFD, she would be protested - the US prescription regarding USCG-approved PFDs was in effect and the wording had been added to the SIs as well. The little girl replied that if there were a protest filed, half the fleet would get tossed - CE vests are everywhere. In the end, the little girl in the CE vest won, the other girl (in second place) protested (only the winner), and the Protest Committee was involved... they issued a warning to the winner. She went on to the ISAF event... where her CE vest is legal.

There was a lot of speculation following this protest that the CE vests were doomed - several companies make them and sell them in the US, where retailers are enjoying brisk sales. But the usage didn't stop... in fact, it seems to have continued to grow. Browse through the photos of just about any regatta and you'll see them... in most of the dinghy and high-performance fleets, they are nearly the standard. Comfortable, low profile, cool...

I have one, too. I got it mid-season last year. Because the NAF-18 Championship is an international event, I suggested to the protest committee (which included some of the same judges as the Youth event described above) that the event be conducted under a US Prescription that allows for the use of non-USCG PFDs. So for the lead-up to the Championship, I wore a CE vest. I love it. It rocks. I used to strip my PFD off when I hit the beach... now I forget it is on.

But not every event is eligible to have the Prescription on PFDs applied... in fact, nearly all events are local or regional or national... few events qualify as "international." And few Organizers are prepared or willing to change the SIs to accommodate CE vests. Yet there are a ton of them out there - many more in the Moth, Laser, 29er and other fleets than our own, so it is not just a multihull problem.

I now carry both my USCG and my CE... I walk around the beach and look to see what others are using. If I see a bunch of CEs, I slip mine on and don't talk about it. For something like the Alter Cup, I'm not even packing the CE... to get tossed over a PFD infraction at that level would be awful. But I'll get to compete on the same boat at the Worlds later this year and my CE vest is not only legal, but over half the fleet will probably have the same style and color. Still, this whole thing has been bugging me a lot - those within US SAILING say there is no way in hell that the Prescription requiring USCG-approved PFDs will ever be dropped... efforts to even coordinate with Canadian standards have been a disaster. The US is the only place a CE vest isn't legal... is it a safety issue? Is it a governmental issue? Is it a liability issue? For certain, it is a rule issue. One that I too am now guilty of ignoring. But I was raised that using the excuse of "everyone's doing it" doesn't cut it. And not everyone's doing it, I know... but a lot of us are.

Seriously - what do you guys think?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209196
04/22/10 12:01 PM
04/22/10 12:01 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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John,

I don't see where our opinions would matter here. The prescription is clear it can't be dropped in the U.S., except for the situations you've already identified.

What's your end game?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209197
04/22/10 12:02 PM
04/22/10 12:02 PM
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Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
I now carry both my USCG and my CE... I walk around the beach and look to see what others are using. If I see a bunch of CEs, I slip mine on and don't talk about it. For something like the Alter Cup, I'm not even packing the CE... to get tossed over a PFD infraction at that level would be awful. But I'll get to compete on the same boat at the Worlds later this year and my CE vest is not only legal, but over half the fleet will probably have the same style and color. Still, this whole thing has been bugging me a lot - those within US SAILING say there is no way in hell that the Prescription requiring USCG-approved PFDs will ever be dropped... efforts to even coordinate with Canadian standards have been a disaster. The US is the only place a CE vest isn't legal... is it a safety issue? Is it a governmental issue? Is it a liability issue? For certain, it is a rule issue. One that I too am now guilty of ignoring. But I was raised that using the excuse of "everyone's doing it" doesn't cut it. And not everyone's doing it, I know... but a lot of us are.

Seriously - what do you guys think?


John,

Since we pretty much all agree that getting the USCG requirement dropped is unlikely, please refresh us on the legality, according to the rules, of having an approved USCG PFD on board, but actually wearing the CE.

It is my understanding that only the throwable device need be "on deck within easy access". Couldn't the USCG PFD's be below, or in a storage compartment? I know that is easier on a dinghy, but what about rolled tightly and inserted through an inspection port on a cat?


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209198
04/22/10 12:04 PM
04/22/10 12:04 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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If the USCG approval process wasn't completely retarded like apparently it is - then I'd be in favor of using the USCG-only prescription. However - to say that Lotus jackets are non-USCG because they took the previous design and changed the embroidery on it and therefore lost their USCG approval - is stupid and reflects the ham-fisted, bureaucratic, red-tape heaven that is governmental regulations.

Likewise, the approval process is quite costly AND is quite lengthy. By the time a USCG approval is given, the jacket is obsolete.

I've been wearing a CE vest for at least a year now and I never had a problem with it supporting my 235lbs butt even when there was a 75oz full camelpak bladder in the back pocket.

The INTENT of the rule (IMO) governing the use of floatation devices is to make sure that someone doesn't show up with some sytrofoam tied to their arms with fishing line and claim that they have adequate safety measures. I don't think it was meant to exclude a whole 75% of the marketed, safe life jackets out there today.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209199
04/22/10 12:05 PM
04/22/10 12:05 PM
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tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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I probably have an unpopular view on this. Since this is an international forum, I will state in advance that my views apply only to sailing in the US. Laws dictate that onboard your boat there must be at least 1 USCG approved flotation device for each person on board (I hae been on board boats on more than one occasion that have been stopped by the CG to check). If an OA is going to permit competitors to wear CE vests, it does not preclude the skippers responsibitly to make sure his boat is compliant with the laws. I feel that the OA is opening itself up to some very dangerous legal ramifications IF a tragic event were to happen during an event where they (the OA) stated that CE devices were acceptable.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: David Ingram] #209200
04/22/10 12:05 PM
04/22/10 12:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Just getting it off my chest, Dave. I'm honestly curious what other people think... this topic got mashed up on SA over a year ago, but I never saw anything constructive come out of it. The atmosphere here is more suited to productive dialog - perhaps someone can think of an approach that you and I haven't.

I'm on the fence on the whole thing, despite a lot of thought on the matter. Maybe I'm just looking to get swayed one way or the other. Is it Friday yet?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209201
04/22/10 12:08 PM
04/22/10 12:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
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I know what you're referring to John and I had the same concerns with crews wearing them in the GT300 (SI's require Coast Guard Approved PFD's). Unfortunately (or fortunately) after the skipper's meeting, I'm no longer a Race Officer, I'm a racer. One person who was wearing one (a close female friend) chose that model because of comfort (like you pointed out). At my urging a few weeks before, we took a swim out in the surf with her wearing it. I wanted to see how well it kept her afloat in a totally relaxed position (like if you were exhausted). I was comfortable with it, so I didn't harp on her about it anymore. I left if as a matter of choice for her and if someone protested, it was out of my hands. I guess my bottom line question was, "are they totally safe?" I feel that they are. I'm kind of a boner about safety too. I would like to see the wording get changed to be able to use them "legally". If their more comfortable, I think a crew member may be able to swim faster to catch a capsized boat or pull themselves on board easier. In the mean time, I wouldn't protest someone for using one.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ksurfer2] #209202
04/22/10 12:08 PM
04/22/10 12:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Karl's right - for the F18 Championship, I knew I was running the risk of getting a ticket from the Harbor Patrol... just because the rule might get changed in the SIs for an international event in the US, the Coasties don't care.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209203
04/22/10 12:09 PM
04/22/10 12:09 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Okay fair enough, so the end game is to change the prescription or drop it. Is that possible given what Karl has posted and what I suspect is driving the prescription?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209206
04/22/10 12:13 PM
04/22/10 12:13 PM
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Michigan
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Pardon the silly question, but aside from the rules involved, what is the difference between a CE and USCG approved PFD? A quick search didn't clarify it for me. Is it the difference between a "bouyancy aid" and a USCG certified one?

p.s. anyone ever have any problems posting using chrome? I had to go the explorer to post anything

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: David Ingram] #209208
04/22/10 12:16 PM
04/22/10 12:16 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Oh and for the record... I don't care what you wear as long and you're not showcasing the junk.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209209
04/22/10 12:19 PM
04/22/10 12:19 PM
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The Coast Guard are not the bad guys here. Bureaucracy is a pita for sure, but anyone who puts his butt on the line for someone else is not the villain.

Has anyone called the CG and asked them if there is anything that can be done? My guess is they have better things to do than run around checking pfds.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mugrace72] #209210
04/22/10 12:22 PM
04/22/10 12:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Hi Jack -

This issue has gotten so much play that US SAILING built a web page just for you.

Check it out.

The Harbor Patrol has given tickets here in Long Beach to power-boaters who's PFDs were stowed in the cabin or in the bench storage in the ****. For them, it didn't meet the standard. I expect that stuffing the orange vests in the hulls of a cat could get you a ticket, but would probably save you a trip to the room.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: PTP] #209212
04/22/10 12:25 PM
04/22/10 12:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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CE is the rest of the worlds equivalent to tested and approved. The USCG does their own testing(I believe) and an absurd amount of money is charged for each model and color PFD to be certified.
Mike Krantz should chime in here, he's been on the frontlines of this issue for awhile.
My question is why can't the prescription for racing be changed to USCG or CE and leave the operator up to being law compliant.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209213
04/22/10 12:25 PM
04/22/10 12:25 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Quote
The Coast Guard are not the bad guys here.


I never said they were. I'm willing to bet that Robi or anyone like him weren't the ones behind writing the USCG approval process and procedures. In fact, I'm willing to bet it was a nameless, faceless bureaucrat or *gasp* a committee of bureaucrats who have to justify their paychecks by coming up with onerous, ridiculous rules and procedures just because they can.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ThunderMuffin] #209214
04/22/10 12:30 PM
04/22/10 12:30 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
The Coast Guard are not the bad guys here.


I never said they were. I'm willing to bet that Robi or anyone like him weren't the ones behind writing the USCG approval process and procedures. In fact, I'm willing to bet it was a nameless, faceless bureaucrat or *gasp* a committee of bureaucrats who have to justify their paychecks by coming up with onerous, ridiculous rules and procedures just because they can.


I'm not after the Coast Guard, either - love 'em. Maybe the more stringent standard is due to liability in a litigious society. Maybe it is just the American spirit of "that's not good enough, let's make it better." Sometimes that can be a good thing... you can see the mountains in LA because the state government decided the national emission standards "weren't good enough."


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209215
04/22/10 12:34 PM
04/22/10 12:34 PM
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Quote
you can see the mountains in LA because the state government decided the national emission standards "weren't good enough."


I can also point to a line of unemployed people because people thought regulations weren't "good enough".

Different topic for a different day.

But you have a point about the lawyers of our society.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209216
04/22/10 12:37 PM
04/22/10 12:37 PM

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andrewscott
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andrewscott
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according to the Coast Guard site -http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg5214/pfdselection.asp#recreational

Note: The Coast Guard is working with the PFD community to revise the classification and labeling of PFDs. When completed, this information will be updated and hopefully be somewhat easier to understand. ....

Isn't there some rule that requires a throw able on board as well?


Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ] #209217
04/22/10 12:49 PM
04/22/10 12:49 PM
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fort Myers, FL
arievd Offline
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Originally Posted by andrewscott
Isn't there some rule that requires a throw able on board as well?



Would that be this subsection of the CG regulation?:

(b) No person may use a recreational vessel 16 feet or more in length unless one Type IV PFD is on board in addition to the total number of PFDs required in paragraph (a) of this section.


Arie
Hobie 16 111812
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209218
04/22/10 12:49 PM
04/22/10 12:49 PM
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Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Hi Jack -

This issue has gotten so much play that US SAILING built a web page just for you.

Check it out.

The Harbor Patrol has given tickets here in Long Beach to power-boaters who's PFDs were stowed in the cabin or in the bench storage in the ****. For them, it didn't meet the standard. I expect that stuffing the orange vests in the hulls of a cat could get you a ticket, but would probably save you a trip to the room.


Thanks John.

From reading that, it seems that what I suggest would pass the test of USSailing, so not a valid protest.

I don't see anything in the CG regs saying the jackets can't be stowed.

I would think that those power boat folks would have strong grounds to successfully defend their tickets.

My friend and sometimes crew, Jerry Richards is the national sails rep for Gill products. He has expounded on many occaisions how difficult and expensive it is for a manufacturer to get the approval, and , as someone stated, if you change something, you need a new test for approval. This is all on the mfgs nickel and that is very expensive. Unless there is hope of selling large numbers, it just isn't worth it. They sell plenty of the "bootleg" ECs and just let the sailors work it out.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209219
04/22/10 01:05 PM
04/22/10 01:05 PM
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So, has anyone called them? If the answer is no, send me a specific question and I'll be happy to pick up the phone.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mugrace72] #209220
04/22/10 01:07 PM
04/22/10 01:07 PM

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andrewscott
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Originally Posted by Mugrace72

My friend and sometimes crew, Jerry Richards is the national sails rep for Gill products. He has expounded on many occaisions how difficult and expensive it is for a manufacturer to get the approval, and , as someone stated, if you change something, you need new test for approval. This is all on the mfgs nickel and that is very expensive. Unless there is hope of selling large numbers, it just isn't worth it. They sell plenty of the "bootleg" ECs and just let the sailors work it out.


Mike Krantz said the same thing last year about getting Zhic jackets certified.. insanely expensive and not viable

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: arievd] #209222
04/22/10 01:11 PM
04/22/10 01:11 PM

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andrewscott
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andrewscott
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Originally Posted by arievd
Originally Posted by andrewscott
Isn't there some rule that requires a throw able on board as well?



Would that be this subsection of the CG regulation?:

(b) No person may use a recreational vessel 16 feet or more in length unless one Type IV PFD is on board in addition to the total number of PFDs required in paragraph (a) of this section.



Yes i think so... how many people carry one of these?
anyone ever ticketed for not having a throw able on board as well?

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ] #209228
04/22/10 01:35 PM
04/22/10 01:35 PM
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Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Quote

Yes i think so... how many people carry one of these?

anyone ever ticketed for not having a throw able on board as well?



Yes I did get a ticket once for not having a throwable device (cushion) while pulling a water skier with a Hobie 16 in Put-In-Bay harbor.

Since then you will always see one on my boat.

At Hobie regattas in the 70s, every 16 had a cushion and also a paddle, BTW!

Now I see a lot of cats at regattas without a cushion...so I guess no one is really looking.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ] #209232
04/22/10 01:39 PM
04/22/10 01:39 PM
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I have the smallest one possible, much more comfortable then a big one.
From what I know most catsailing incidents that resulted in death where from people getting stuck under the tramp.
It makes you wonder if a PFD with maximum flotation is something you want.
Anyway, European safety standards are quite strict so why not change the requirement to have either a CG or CE approved PFD?
Any idea why the approval process is so expensive? Its a PFD, how much could you possibly test?

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tony_F18] #209235
04/22/10 01:58 PM
04/22/10 01:58 PM
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Santa Cruz, CA
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Originally Posted by pgp

Has anyone called the CG and asked them if there is anything that can be done?


Use caution when posting the results of your call, Pete. You might get some answers that people don't like and you'll get the blame. grin

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209269
04/22/10 03:24 PM
04/22/10 03:24 PM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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John,

The Brazilian solution was simple: they had the coast guard equivalent ammend their rule so that, besides the locally aproved PFDs, CE or USCG approved PFDs are acceptable for use in Brazilian waters respecting the same limitations imposed by the approving authority.

Part of the reasoning to convince them was that foreign boats visiting a country must comply only with the safety rules of their country of origin, so foreign aproved PFDs (as well as even more important safety equipment) are already worn legally in many vessels. Why would it be ilegal in local vessels?

While this line of reasoning is valid for any country, it clearly isn't enough. I don't know what would work in the US, maybe globalization, perhaps reciprocity to EU regulations (if it is the case) or something else.

Last edited by Luiz; 04/22/10 05:27 PM.

Luiz
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Luiz] #209271
04/22/10 03:35 PM
04/22/10 03:35 PM
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tampa, fl
Another question regarding this. If the insurance agency covering your club, regatta, or event new that you were not requiring USCG PFD's, do you think they would have anything to say?

Would the insurance company find a way out of payment of damages if a lawsuit comes about from an incident were USCG PFD were not required? This would leave the OA totally exposed.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Luiz] #209273
04/22/10 03:50 PM
04/22/10 03:50 PM
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Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
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Unless things have changed in the years I have been out of the "standards" business, a big difference is that CE is a self-certification system, whereas the US has government testing. The CE publishes the mandatory specifications, but it's up to the manufacturer to determine on its own if it meets those standards. In the US, government testing agencies test each product to determine compliance, and providing all the required documentation is a major factor in the cost. Therefore if ANYTHING changes (ie: embroidered logo) it starts the process all over again.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ksurfer2] #209274
04/22/10 03:50 PM
04/22/10 03:50 PM
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Naples, FL
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Karl,

Pretty much any incident that occurrs while sailing will incur some liability on the part of the OA, because attornies are just that persistent. Too much/too little wind, storms during event, spin/non-spin sharing a course... even just being there are all reasons for the OA to be called out by enterprising attorneys with bills to pay for those cheezy TV ads (just "Axe Gary" or whodoIsuedotcom)

The PFD question becomes front and center in a number of wrongful death suits, so I suspect the USCG requirement will be the only way to have a chance at defending against such a strategy.

for-the-people

but, I guess I'm a bit partial being in the industry that I am

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 04/22/10 03:51 PM. Reason: spelling

Jay

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mugrace72] #209276
04/22/10 04:29 PM
04/22/10 04:29 PM

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andrewscott
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andrewscott
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Originally Posted by Mugrace72
Quote

Yes i think so... how many people carry one of these?

anyone ever ticketed for not having a throw able on board as well?



Yes I did get a ticket once for not having a throwable device (cushion) while pulling a water skier with a Hobie 16 in Put-In-Bay harbor.

Since then you will always see one on my boat.

At Hobie regattas in the 70s, every 16 had a cushion and also a paddle, BTW!

Now I see a lot of cats at regattas without a cushion...so I guess no one is really looking.


Thanks for the response. I have never heard of anyone in my area ever getting a ticket. Nor have i ever seen a cat inspected.

PS I carry one on my front tramp, right under my cooler of rum (wouldn't want the cooler to sink in a flip) smile

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: arievd] #209307
04/22/10 08:57 PM
04/22/10 08:57 PM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by arievd
Originally Posted by andrewscott
Isn't there some rule that requires a throw able on board as well?



Would that be this subsection of the CG regulation?:

(b) No person may use a recreational vessel 16 feet or more in length unless one Type IV PFD is on board in addition to the total number of PFDs required in paragraph (a) of this section.


I always found this one kinda humerous. It makes sense in the possibility of having to "rescue" someone else, but if I'm singlehanded, who the hell is going to throw it to me? whistle I don't know if this is a state thing, or what, but the way its worded in the Minnesota handbook I'm required to carry a functioning fire extinguisher as well. I don't think any water patrol would write a ticket, or any judge would let it stick, but......

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Karl_Brogger] #209319
04/23/10 12:42 AM
04/23/10 12:42 AM
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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Don't you find it interesting that the agency making and enforcing the rule profits from the required tests.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: IndyWave] #209323
04/23/10 04:19 AM
04/23/10 04:19 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

The CE publishes the mandatory specifications, but it's up to the manufacturer to determine on its own if it meets those standards.



I doubt that very much. it is true however that the manufactorer needs to perform the testing and paperwork or arrange to have it done, but final certification is still left to the associated authorities. You can can't just carry the CE mark without their audit of your results and approval.

The CE standards are in my opinion good enough for these bouyancy aids; they are up to the job. Note that lifevests are defined differently in the EU and our bouyancy aids do not satisfy the requirements for a lifevest. For example a lifevest needs to turn you on your back even when you are unconcious when you hit the water; the PFD's will not do that.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Wouter] #209325
04/23/10 06:37 AM
04/23/10 06:37 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
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Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
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Originally Posted by Wouter

I doubt that very much. it is true however that the manufactorer needs to perform the testing and paperwork or arrange to have it done, but final certification is still left to the associated authorities. You can can't just carry the CE mark without their audit of your results and approval.


You're right, the results are audited, but the testing is done by the manufacturer. By putting the CE mark on his product, he is certifying that it meets the specs. There are severe penalties for putting the mark on inadaquate products, but how he gets there is up to him.

But in the US, all the testing is done by the regulating agency. Documentation has to be provided on all materials and all maufacturing processes, even packaging. A big part of the testing is verification that the product EXACTLY matches the documentation, then that it EXACTLY meets all the performance specifications, including destructive testing. If the manufacturer changes thread suppliers, it is not the exact same product which received the approval, so it takes the full process on the new configuration. That's why the choices are so limited, and changes come so slowly.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Karl_Brogger] #209332
04/23/10 08:01 AM
04/23/10 08:01 AM

A
andrewscott
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andrewscott
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A



Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by arievd
Originally Posted by andrewscott
Isn't there some rule that requires a throw able on board as well?



Would that be this subsection of the CG regulation?:

(b) No person may use a recreational vessel 16 feet or more in length unless one Type IV PFD is on board in addition to the total number of PFDs required in paragraph (a) of this section.


I always found this one kinda humerous. It makes sense in the possibility of having to "rescue" someone else, but if I'm singlehanded, who the hell is going to throw it to me? whistle I don't know if this is a state thing, or what, but the way its worded in the Minnesota handbook I'm required to carry a functioning fire extinguisher as well. I don't think any water patrol would write a ticket, or any judge would let it stick, but......

I don't know Karl, you were smokin' in the pics i saw on your new V-rocket

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ] #209370
04/23/10 10:52 AM
04/23/10 10:52 AM
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brucat Offline
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Well, there are a lot of rules (including prescriptions and class rules) that can get you tossed for all sorts of reasons, and at higher levels of the sport (particularly qualifiers, international events and Olympics), you should almost expect to be protested if you do not follow them. For better or worse (depending on your perspective), it's all part of the game.

Now, in reading your posts John, I'm having difficulty understanding where in the prescription, or on the USSA PFD webpage, there was a clause that made the CE vest at that youth event legal enough to justify a warning and not a DSQ. Was there something else in the SIs that allowed the PC to issue a warning for this infraction? This was a US sailor on a US boat in US waters, right?

This is the sort of thing that could lead to an appeal at a minimum, up to everyone's new favorite buzzword, arbitration.

Please help me understand this a bit more in case I find myself on a PC for such a thing...

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209374
04/23/10 11:10 AM
04/23/10 11:10 AM
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mikekrantz Offline
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My question, why is US Sailing trying to enforce a USCG or local DNR regulation?

We might as well write into the SI's, no robbing, raping, and plundering during the course of the event and while we're at it, include all of the state/federal laws and regulations...

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mikekrantz] #209376
04/23/10 11:31 AM
04/23/10 11:31 AM

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MarkMT
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MarkMT
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Quote
one little girl said to another that if she was going to wear her CE-approved PFD, she would be protested

My question is what is it that clubs/parents/coaches are doing that leads little kids to think that winning is so important that a protest is the right way to address a concern like this? Even if the rule were justified on safety grounds, it's interesting that what she didn't do was go to the RC before the race and say "I'm concerned that some of the kids aren't going to be safe on the water".

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ] #209377
04/23/10 11:35 AM
04/23/10 11:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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What's being taught is:
Win at all costs, rather you can do it on your own merit or not.The AC just reaffirms this.
Unfortunately ,Corinthian spirit is becoming a thing of the past.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #209378
04/23/10 11:40 AM
04/23/10 11:40 AM
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brucat Offline
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Like I said, it's all part of the game, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. It's unfortunate that this didn't get worked out in advance, but only because it was a Youth event. It was still a major qualifier, and rule issues should be anticipated.

BTW, my understanding is that the Corinthian spirit tells you to follow the rules when no one else is looking, not to make reasons for others not to follow them.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 04/23/10 11:42 AM.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ] #209379
04/23/10 11:51 AM
04/23/10 11:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
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tampa, fl
Originally Posted by MarkMT
Quote
one little girl said to another that if she was going to wear her CE-approved PFD, she would be protested

My question is what is it that clubs/parents/coaches are doing that leads little kids to think that winning is so important that a protest is the right way to address a concern like this? Even if the rule were justified on safety grounds, it's interesting that what she didn't do was go to the RC before the race and say "I'm concerned that some of the kids aren't going to be safe on the water".


Another question would be why are they being allowed by clubs/parents/coaches to sail in PFD's that do not meet the standards prescribed in the SI's?


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209380
04/23/10 11:58 AM
04/23/10 11:58 AM
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Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat


BTW, my understanding is that the Corinthian spirit tells you to follow the rules when no one else is looking, not to make reasons for others not to follow them.

Mike


That's my take to, in case their was some confusion.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209385
04/23/10 12:54 PM
04/23/10 12:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Originally Posted by brucat
Now, in reading your posts John, I'm having difficulty understanding where in the prescription, or on the USSA PFD webpage, there was a clause that made the CE vest at that youth event legal enough to justify a warning and not a DSQ. Was there something else in the SIs that allowed the PC to issue a warning for this infraction? This was a US sailor on a US boat in US waters, right?

This is the sort of thing that could lead to an appeal at a minimum, up to everyone's new favorite buzzword, arbitration.

Please help me understand this a bit more in case I find myself on a PC for such a thing...

Mike


Hi Mike -

In anticipation of this very issue, the RO and PC worked together in preparing the SIs to say that the penalty might be something less than DSQ.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209386
04/23/10 01:02 PM
04/23/10 01:02 PM
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brucat Offline
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Perfect. I've seen these things handled that way as well. More typically around here, we are moving to statements that violations of safety rules are not subject to protest by another boat (inference is that RC or PC can protest).

Not that any of that helps when SIs are silent on the issue...

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209389
04/23/10 01:51 PM
04/23/10 01:51 PM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Would you mind providing the text so we can use it as a boiler plate.

Thank you in advance.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: David Ingram] #209393
04/23/10 02:44 PM
04/23/10 02:44 PM
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brucat Offline
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From the HCA standard SI template:

15.6 Breaches of instructions [list SI section numbers related to safety] will not be grounds for a protest by a boat. This changes RRS 60.1(a). Penalties for these breaches may be less than disqualification if the protest committee so decides. The scoring abbreviation for a discretionary penalty imposed under this instruction will be DPI.

I have seen this modified for non-Hobie events to say:
Breaches of safety rules will not be grounds for a protest by a boat... (This would get you around prescriptions, class rules, etc. in case you forget to specifically list one: paddles, whistles, etc. sometimes show up in class rules.)

Here is the link: http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/sit...urces/2009%20HCA-NA%20Standard%20SIs.doc

I wrote this SI template, based on RRS Appendix L and some Hobie traditions, and reviewed/tweaked by a team that included Matt Bounds, Irene McNeill, and other certified folks.

Hope this helps.

Mike


Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209395
04/23/10 03:17 PM
04/23/10 03:17 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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It does help and thank you.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: David Ingram] #209396
04/23/10 03:32 PM
04/23/10 03:32 PM
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brucat Offline
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Not to confuse the issue, but I just posted that language to answer the question of how to make safety rules "optional" within SIs.

HCA does NOT make any attempt to change PFD requirements, or any other class rule changes. If you read the SI template, you will see that the safety section is really about check-ins, etc.

I HAVE seen language added to cut down on "safety protests" at lots of other regattas, and while I really don't like it on a personal level, it can help to alleviate what some consider to be "frivilous" protests (for class rules requiring paddles, whistles, etc.).

Personally, I don't think individual events should mess with class rules. That's just part of growing up with the militant SMOD Hobie rules, I guess.

I also feel farily strongly that we should just follow the local laws, which is what USSA is saying in their RX. I don't want to debate CE vs. USCG, but it's always dangerous for an OA to attempt to sidestep USSA or worse, local laws.

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mikekrantz] #209401
04/23/10 05:13 PM
04/23/10 05:13 PM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by mikekrantz
My question, why is US Sailing trying to enforce a USCG or local DNR regulation?

We might as well write into the SI's, no robbing, raping, and plundering during the course of the event and while we're at it, include all of the state/federal laws and regulations...


I skimmed this thread last night and had the same thought. Why can't the SI's just say "adequate flotation device" and leave it at that.

Then again, without some specific definition, a protest committee would have random results if tested on "what is adequate"? Does that mean legal? Does that mean floats the person adequately? Does adequate in that context mean face up? All of a sudden a limited definition for a flotation device leaves the barn door open for a lot of interpretation.

I think the only option is to leave out the requirement entirely but then that brings up other valid questions.

The real problem here is the CG requirement. They require the flotation to be balanced in such a manner that the CG approved life jackets simply aren't comfortable for what we do (must float face up resulting in much flotation in the front) and they require a cumbersome and expensive approval process. This is really the problem here.


Jake Kohl
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209403
04/23/10 05:58 PM
04/23/10 05:58 PM
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Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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The rules only apply so long as people agree to follow them. US Sailing has no army to enforce them. If you want to make up your own rules that say port has right of way over starboard and then invite all your friends to an event under those rules, no one is going to stop you. Similarly if you want to amend the rules as you see fit, no one is going to stop you. They may tell you that you can’t do it, but that’s about all they can do. It’s a classic case of "stop or I'll say stop again."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N1Hz2_gdh4

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Jake] #209405
04/23/10 06:29 PM
04/23/10 06:29 PM
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Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Why can't the SI's just say "adequate flotation device" and leave it at that.


Then I think the question would be, "What is adequate floatation?" Which is sort of what the whole CG cert defines.

Here's a question. Eliminating any application process, would the vests in question pass the CG flotation criteria?

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: SurfCityRacing] #209410
04/23/10 07:39 PM
04/23/10 07:39 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
Originally Posted by Jake
Why can't the SI's just say "adequate flotation device" and leave it at that.


Then I think the question would be, "What is adequate floatation?" Which is sort of what the whole CG cert defines.

Here's a question. Eliminating any application process, would the vests in question pass the CG flotation criteria?


The major players would not only pass but exceed. I believe I was told that many of the CE approved PFDs will actually float more weight.
It boils down to bureaucracy and dollars/greed. Go figure.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: rhodysail] #209417
04/23/10 10:26 PM
04/23/10 10:26 PM
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Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by rhodysail
The rules only apply so long as people agree to follow them. US Sailing has no army to enforce them. If you want to make up your own rules that say port has right of way over starboard and then invite all your friends to an event under those rules, no one is going to stop you. Similarly if you want to amend the rules as you see fit, no one is going to stop you. They may tell you that you can’t do it, but that’s about all they can do. It’s a classic case of "stop or I'll say stop again."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N1Hz2_gdh4


OK, say the port/starboard rules are reversed (port has ROW) in the SIs. This is contrary to RRS 86.1 which says that the SIs cannot change a rule in Part 2 (ROW rules).

We get into a P/S confrontation. I'm on stbd, you're on port. You "win" because of the SIs, but I immediately request redress because of the rule 86 violation. I win, you lose. No jury would think twice about it.

As far as the PFD issue is concerned, the IHCA Class Rules state:
Quote
8. SAFETY EQUIPMENT
8.1 Each person on board shall carry a lifesaving
device or Personal Flotation Device (PFD) approved
by their country’s national authority or by
the national authority having jurisdiction. The
IHCA strongly recommends that life jackets or
PFDs be worn at all times.


So if you wear one of the non-USCG approved PFDs, you are violating the US Sailing prescription and the class rules. That might even call for a Rule 2 / Rule 69 action.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mbounds] #209418
04/23/10 10:47 PM
04/23/10 10:47 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Matt, that the violation exists isn't the point; that part is inarguable. The part I'm curious about regards such widespread violation of the rule and a fundamental question of why the rule exists only in the US and affects only US sailors... except when they compete outside the US.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209419
04/23/10 11:48 PM
04/23/10 11:48 PM
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Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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USA the land of the free and the brave...

CRAZINESS!


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"Darph Bobo"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Dazz] #209421
04/24/10 12:42 AM
04/24/10 12:42 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
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Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
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Took me a while to find it, but here's the process of getting a PFD approved. I wonder how much UL charges, there is no talk of cost on the Coast Guard site.

Quote
APPROVAL GUIDANCE & INFORMATION: All PFDs are approved by the Coast Guard, but some require little or no direct USCG review prior to approval. All PFDs must be tested by the USCG’s Recognized Laboratory, which is Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. The Coast Guard will do a pre-approval review of any new concept prior to submitting it for testing to the Recognized Laboratory. (See discussion in “Note” below) Unless it is a new concept, most recreational PFDs may be submitted directly to the laboratory for approval.


Here's the Site

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: SurfCityRacing] #209432
04/24/10 10:20 AM
04/24/10 10:20 AM
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smile


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: SurfCityRacing] #209435
04/24/10 10:37 AM
04/24/10 10:37 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
Originally Posted by Jake
Why can't the SI's just say "adequate flotation device" and leave it at that.


Then I think the question would be, "What is adequate floatation?" Which is sort of what the whole CG cert defines.

Here's a question. Eliminating any application process, would the vests in question pass the CG flotation criteria?


That's what I said later in my post.


Jake Kohl
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mbounds] #209436
04/24/10 10:44 AM
04/24/10 10:44 AM
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Branford, CT
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Quote
We get into a P/S confrontation. I'm on stbd, you're on port. You "win" because of the SIs, but I immediately request redress because of the rule 86 violation. I win, you lose. No jury would think twice about it.


No I win because I chose the jury. If I'm going to change the rules in my hypothetical regatta I'm going to make sure the jury will go along with it. Basically this regatta would not be held under US Sailing rules.
This may sound kind of crazy but it has happened. Back many years ago I sailed some races under an experimental simplified set of rules. This was long before US Sailing adopted them and that's kind of my point. If there is enough consensus and the behavior of a majority of sailors does not conform to the rules, then eventually the rules will be changed to conform to the behavior.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: rhodysail] #209437
04/24/10 11:29 AM
04/24/10 11:29 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Ding Ding Ding! The winner

The only way out of the conundrum is to run the regatta under a different set of rules.

But US Sailing and ISAF will go after you for copy write infringement for your ISAF rules minus the Coast Guard requirement and bar your club and competitors from all US Sailing and ISAF events in the future.

We won't even get into your club's liability issues or your own liability limitations.

The conundrum is replaced by a catch 22!



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209438
04/24/10 11:42 AM
04/24/10 11:42 AM
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Branford, CT
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I don't see any crack down on this annual regatta with its own set of rules.

http://www.jyc.org/FoolsRules/ThisYearsFoolsRules.htm

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: rhodysail] #209440
04/24/10 11:53 AM
04/24/10 11:53 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Ah... you bring up a great point... the need for good judgment!

What's needed is good judgment on all sides of the game we play.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: rhodysail] #209452
04/24/10 05:39 PM
04/24/10 05:39 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by rhodysail
No I win because I chose the jury. If I'm going to change the rules in my hypothetical regatta I'm going to make sure the jury will go along with it. Basically this regatta would not be held under US Sailing rules.

If you want to run a regatta outside of the jurisdiction of ISAF and US SAILING, you need to write your own complete set of rules. I'm sure it's possible, but you may find it more difficult than expected to author rules that are complete (cover all actions of boats and race operations), consistent (no rules contradict any others), and coherent (don't lead to any unexpected consequences - such as one boat forcing another to break a rule without breaking one herself).

An organizing authority cannot use the Racing Rules of Sailing and then make changes prohibited by those rules. An honest jury will overturn those changes. If the OA forms a dishonest jury, then their decision will be overturned on appeal. If the OA refuses to follow the instructions of the appeals committee, they may be subject to sanctions levied by US SAILING or ISAF (including, as has been pointed out, being banned from running regattas). If a banned OA runs an event anyway, they may have difficulty getting competitors, as the sailors may face disciplinary action themselves for attending.

But let's back off from the threats. The preamble to the rules states:
Quote
Basic Principle / Sportsmanship and the Rules Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce.
I would argue that the Organizing Authority is also expected to follow them. Sportsmanship is a basic principle. Why is it so difficult to abide by the rules of our sport?

Quote
This may sound kind of crazy but it has happened. Back many years ago I sailed some races under an experimental simplified set of rules.
There are provisions for developing and testing experimental new rules. See rule 86.3. If you want to try out experimental rules, you may need US SAILING's permission.

Quote
If there is enough consensus and the behavior of a majority of sailors does not conform to the rules, then eventually the rules will be changed to conform to the behavior.
I don't see a "consensus and behavior of a majority of sailors not conforming to the rules". I think the opposite is true. I believe the majority of sailors think we should follow the rules. Civil disobedience (in my opinion), isn't really a viable or necessary action here.

Sincerely,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209453
04/24/10 05:43 PM
04/24/10 05:43 PM
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Last Tuesday evening I brought this issue up (prior to catching John's post) at a US Sailing Jr. Olympic Festival planning meeting for our yc which will also include the first USODA Gulf Coast Championship Regatta. Despite my mention of subsequent complaints (against the SI rule) from parents at Opti events within the GYA during the past year our planning committee demanded that USCG devices be worn exclusively, and my role as Safety Officer was slanted toward mediocrity.

For major catamaran and youth events I have recently used the phrase "USCG approved or international equivalent."

I have always felt that a regatta should be organized by sailors for the sake of the competitors' safety and performance challenge and not a blinded race comm. The Organizing Authority has the opportunity to keep up with the times or lose participation.

As Safety Officer and grandparent of a sailor I will put this back on the table with John's letter for their re-consideration.


Bert Rice
Laser Radial sailor - grandpa

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: rhodysail] #209454
04/24/10 05:50 PM
04/24/10 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rhodysail
I don't see any crack down on this annual regatta with its own set of rules.
http://www.jyc.org/FoolsRules/ThisYearsFoolsRules.htm

I took a look at the rules for this event and have two observations:
  1. Nowhere in the "press release" or the "rules" published does it say that this regatta is governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing. I conclude that the event is run outside the jurisdiction of ISAF and US SAILING.
  2. I see that the rules include "All crew members MUST wear Coast Guard approved life preservers...
Regards,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209460
04/24/10 09:37 PM
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People raced sailboats before US Sailing and people will race sailboats after US Sailing.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: rhodysail] #209524
04/26/10 10:32 AM
04/26/10 10:32 AM
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At the end of the day, Bob is right, it's a free country and you can do whatever you want.

BUT, don't expect much (any?) leeway at major events, and for those of us that are certified by USSA, we are expected to uphold the rules that are in place. I like to think that as catsailors, we are always thinking outside of the box anyway, and I know that most of us really try to make everyone happy (and we all know how much of a moving target that can be).

I am intentionally not discussing the merits of CE vs USCG, because that argument can go around forever.

If enough sailors feel strongly enough about this, why not petition USSA to make a change? They might go for it, or they might come back with other answers you won't like.

Remember, KISS is usually the best answer. There's nothing stopping anyone from buying a USCG PFD. If the buoyancy that will keep you face up in the water is a nuisance, maybe you should be reassessing your priorities.

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209530
04/26/10 11:16 AM
04/26/10 11:16 AM
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Detroit, MI
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Originally Posted by brucat
At the end of the day, Bob is right, it's a free country and you can do whatever you want.

BUT, don't expect much (any?) leeway at major events, and for those of us that are certified by USSA, we are expected to uphold the rules that are in place. I like to think that as catsailors, we are always thinking outside of the box anyway, and I know that most of us really try to make everyone happy (and we all know how much of a moving target that can be).

I am intentionally not discussing the merits of CE vs USCG, because that argument can go around forever.

If enough sailors feel strongly enough about this, why not petition USSA to make a change? They might go for it, or they might come back with other answers you won't like.

Remember, KISS is usually the best answer. There's nothing stopping anyone from buying a USCG PFD. If the buoyancy that will keep you face up in the water is a nuisance, maybe you should be reassessing your priorities.

Mike


Because of the rule that requires trapeze harnesses to float (43.1(b)), you'll float butt-up if you're unconscious, no matter what PFD you're wearing.

I discovered that when I went for a fully geared up swim in the pool at the 16 Worlds in Mexico. (You needed the chlorine to kill the seawater stink.)

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mbounds] #209531
04/26/10 11:20 AM
04/26/10 11:20 AM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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I guess that is part of where I am coming from... does the rule make sense? Are you more safe? Parents I polled this weekend insist they got them for their kids because they wear them - comfort means no argument from little Susie about wearing the PFD, which means she's wearing it when the Sabot rolls over.

I never tried the dead-man's float like Lee suggests, so I don't know if my harness would put me face-down or not... interesting experiment, Matt. I did go into the water for the first time since I got this vest - I was kicked off the boat to assist a single-hander in righting his boat. I did find it much easier to swim in the CE vest.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209537
04/26/10 12:19 PM
04/26/10 12:19 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
At the end of the day, Bob is right, it's a free country and you can do whatever you want.
In any country, you are free to break the law if you want.

Quote
BUT, don't expect much (any?) leeway at major events, and for those of us that are certified by USSA, we are expected to uphold the rules that are in place.
We are all expected to uphold the rules, whether or not we are certified. Again, I refer everybody to the rule titled Sportsmanship and the Rules, which preceeds Part 1 of the rulebook.

Quote
I am intentionally not discussing the merits of CE vs USCG, because that argument can go around forever.
For the sake of argument, let's assume that PFDs meeting either certification provide adequate flotation. We're not discussing design differences, but regulatory ones.

Quote
If enough sailors feel strongly enough about this, why not petition USSA to make a change? They might go for it, or they might come back with other answers you won't like.
I'm sympathetic to this cause (really, I am), but I'll bet money that US SAILING won't rewrite this prescription to permit competitors to break the law. The only real solution I see is to lobby the USCG to change their regulations (or certification process). Of course, I don't see much hope there either.

All the RRS 40 prescription does is make the existing laws (regarding life-saving equipment) also rank as rules. It doesn't in any way add to existing legal requirements. The only difference is that in addition to breaking the law and risking a fine, you also break a rule and risk disqualification if you don't carry the mandated equipment.

Sincerely,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209541
04/26/10 12:57 PM
04/26/10 12:57 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
I guess that is part of where I am coming from... does the rule make sense? Are you more safe?
Well, that depends on your behavior with and without the US SAILING prescription. Let's examine the following possibilities:
  1. You already obey the law. If so, then this rule doesn't affect you and the answer is no.
  2. You don't already obey the law and you still don't obey it even with the prescription. In this case, the answer is also no.
  3. You don't already obey the law but because of the prescription, you change your behavior and comply. In this case, maybe or maybe not. If you simply exchange an adequate USCG approved PFD for an adequate non-approved PFD, then no. If you use an approved PFD where you previously had not, then I think the answer is yes.
I believe that US SAILING has become increasingly safety-conscious over the past 20 years, and this prescription is another step in that direction. In principle, I agree with those who dislike rules saying "obey the law". They are redundant and place control of our sport in the wrong hands. I don't know the origin of this prescription, but I presume there must have been a real problem with competitors breaking the law for US SAILING to add it.

Quote
Parents I polled this weekend insist they got them for their kids because they wear them - comfort means no argument from little Susie about wearing the PFD, which means she's wearing it when the Sabot rolls over.
If little Susie is under 13 years old, then she must wear a USCG approved PFD anyway. If not, she only needs to carry an approved PFD on board - she can wear whatever she wants.

And I think that's the common sense solution here as well. If you have an adequate CE approved PFD that you prefer to wear, wear it and also keep a USCG compliant PFD on board. Stuff it in a hull compartment, bungee it to a crossarm, or sew additional pockets onto your trampoline - whatever it takes.

Regards,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209544
04/26/10 01:09 PM
04/26/10 01:09 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Quote
If you have an adequate CE approved PFD that you prefer to wear, wear it and also keep a USCG compliant PFD on board. Stuff it in a hull compartment, bungee it to a crossarm, or sew additional pockets onto your trampoline - whatever it takes.


That's all well and good but, I know plenty of guys who spend large sums of money to save ounces on their boats, like buying titanium bolts to swap out for stainless,etc. .You are going to have a hard time convincing these people to carry an "extra"life jacket that's more dangerous than the one they're wearing for the sake of a greedy, bureaucratic, red tape wrapped law.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #209546
04/26/10 01:40 PM
04/26/10 01:40 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I know plenty of guys who spend large sums of money to save ounces on their boats, like buying titanium bolts to swap out for stainless,etc. .You are going to have a hard time convincing these people to carry an "extra"life jacket ...
If their need to "save ounces" outweighs their need to obey the law and follow the rules, then nothing I say will convince them. I trust that none of us here fall into that group. Does anybody here honestly believe that they have to break the law in order to win a race?

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209547
04/26/10 01:59 PM
04/26/10 01:59 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Does anybody here honestly believe that they have to break the law in order to win a race?


I can't believe that a moment's introspection would lead anyone to think that. We do have many cases, however, where wearing a USCG PFD is written into the SIs - this takes the Prescription to another level, and carrying doesn't meet this rule.

I'm no closer to resolving this issue in my head. crazy


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209549
04/26/10 02:19 PM
04/26/10 02:19 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams begin_of_the_skype_highlighting     end_of_the_skype_highlighting
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Does anybody here honestly believe that they have to break the law in order to win a race?


I can't believe that a moment's introspection would lead anyone to think that. We do have many cases, however, where wearing a USCG PFD is written into the SIs - this takes the Prescription to another level, and carrying doesn't meet this rule.

I'm no closer to resolving this issue in my head. crazy


Yeah you are, you just don't like the answer.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: David Ingram] #209550
04/26/10 02:21 PM
04/26/10 02:21 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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That would assume that I'm not perfectly balanced between the two sides of the issue - I have nothing to gain or lose no matter which way I get tipped; therefore there can't be an answer I don't like.

My list of pro v con is a study in point and counterpoint.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mbounds] #209551
04/26/10 02:36 PM
04/26/10 02:36 PM
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Northfield Mn
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Originally Posted by mbounds
you'll float butt-up if you're unconscious, no matter what PFD you're wearing.


What about the big butt, orange, around the neck & down the chest, "just rescued from The Lusitania", looking ones? grin

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209552
04/26/10 02:39 PM
04/26/10 02:39 PM
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Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams


My list of pro v con is a study in point and counterpoint.


I think we've seen this one before:

Attached Files
point_counterpoint.gif (176 downloads)
Jane, you ignorant $lu**

USA 777
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Karl_Brogger] #209554
04/26/10 02:40 PM
04/26/10 02:40 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Just the fact that you know what the Lusitania is (AND spelled it correctly) moved you up two more notches.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: tback] #209555
04/26/10 02:46 PM
04/26/10 02:46 PM
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brucat Offline
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Karl, Matt, I would like to retract my last sentence. I was assuming USCG meant you'd be face-up, based on my reading of another post here. I've just proven (again) why assuming is such a bad idea.

I'm really more in line with what John just said. I don't care what the final decision is. And, I would never protest anyone over a PFD issue (unless as a PRO, forced by the rule regading a measurer's report, etc.).

However, I stand by what I said earlier. Unless/until the rules are changed, your best option is to follow the rules that are in place at this time. Nothing is stopping anyone from owning a USCG PFD and complying with the rules without any further issue.

And, if you're at any sort of major event, especially where you don't know all of the players, you should expect equipment protests. Part of the game...

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209556
04/26/10 02:57 PM
04/26/10 02:57 PM
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Northfield Mn
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Just the fact that you know what the Lusitania is (AND spelled it correctly) moved you up two more notches.


Actually I had to google it to double check my spelling, which to my great surprise was correct the first time.

What can I do to lower myself those two notches again? Its uncomfortable/kinda scary up here.

This might work:
Take a moment please, and indulge in the idea of Mr. Bounds dressed in full sailing attire, floating, face down, butt up in a pool. Now ponder the looks on the tourists face's.....

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209557
04/26/10 03:03 PM
04/26/10 03:03 PM
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I have both a CE and USCG PDF. My bags got lost on my way to the Worlds in France and I had to pick a new one up there. I prefer sailing with the European one as it is way more comfortable. I use it for all of my evening sails and most regattas when I notice others using non-USCG equip as well.

I am now on the lookout for a really comfy USCG that matches the one I like. I think it is time for new ones anyway. I replace them every couple of years. Wish I could make my own like I do my harnesses. Then they would be really nice and custom.

As I remember researching the difference I think the CE rating is 50 and the USCG is 55. I think that refers to percentage of flotation compared to the average weight of sized (S,M,L,XL) person. So the USCG would be 10% bigger, that seems like quite a bit to me, and it feels like it.

I will report if I find anything.

Later,
Dan

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Dan_Delave] #209562
04/26/10 03:27 PM
04/26/10 03:27 PM
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France
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Originally Posted by Dan_Delave
As I remember researching the difference I think the CE rating is 50 and the USCG is 55. I think that refers to percentage of flotation compared to the average weight of sized (S,M,L,XL) person. So the USCG would be 10% bigger, that seems like quite a bit to me, and it feels like it.

50 refers to newtons. 50 newtons is the smallest buoyancy aid you can get with a CE marking. Frankly this is probably not enough for long distance racers, but fine for around the buoys when a safety boat is in attendance. Hence the name "buoyancy aid".

The smallest adult US PFD, type I, is 22 lbs, aka 98 newtons. This has almost twice the buoyancy of a CE buoyancy aid and is pretty damn close to a 100 newtons CE Life Jacket. Note, those are no longer called buoyancy aid, but life jacket.

References: CE; US.


Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #209563
04/26/10 03:28 PM
04/26/10 03:28 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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your missing the big issue Todd

It's the stinkin throwable on an A cat....

So, my logic/ judgment ...
Yes... I am breaking the law and if stopped by the police... I will pay the fine.... It's just like a seat belt offense.... pisser.

Re the Racing Rules.

The essence of the rules is to establish the ground rules for fair competition. On a single handed catamaran... the throwable requirement has a marginal safety value. (Why wouldn't a laser need the thowable as well. the 16 foot line is arbitrary and capricious in this context) The CE versus Coast Guard approval issue has even less safety value.

My observation is that the class members ignore this prescription.... therefore, I choose to fall in line with the class philosophy.

Is the CE vest a performance advantage... probably.. but I don't think the intention of the rules extends to mandating personal gear restrictions ... (what next... a glove rule).
Again, I choose to fall in line with the class philosophy.

Therefore, my personal choice is to judge that I am not gaining an unfair advantage and I am also consistent with the class culture in not enforcing that prescription on my competitors.

If protested by a class member who does not exercise good judgment, I will dsq myself before the hearing and allow the class members to deal with the aftermath.

If the PRO or RC protests me... I will dsq myself and never return to the event.

As I noted... good judgment is needed all around...

This prescription is an issue of the rules ONLY when someone elevates it to the level. Sailboat racing is a social contract between competitors and Race management ... the game is bound by the OD class rules, the RRS, Prescriptions AND GOOD JUDGMENT.

If the class you sail in does not have members with good judgment... instead of changing the vest... change the class or switch to a class with no fools!

FYI, Rules can be ADDED (not just ignored) ..
CRAC dealt with distance racing equipment rules in a similar manner.

We have no authority or wisdom to counter or supersede coast guard regulation. Moreover, we have no off shore safety gear requirements for beach cat racing. However, We do specify a list of gear for distance races and you will be dsq if you don't have it on a spot check.

Our solution... We simply require a specified list of gear to race...If we insisted you tape a kewpie doll to your boom... So be it... If that required hand held radio gear proves useful to you as you drift demasted out there... Wow...what a coincidence!

Again... it's both the rules... AND the culture of good judgment that makes it work.

One of fleet members was dsq'd for not following these rules in the past.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 04/26/10 03:36 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: pepin] #209564
04/26/10 03:41 PM
04/26/10 03:41 PM
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Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by pepin
Originally Posted by Dan_Delave
As I remember researching the difference I think the CE rating is 50 and the USCG is 55. I think that refers to percentage of flotation compared to the average weight of sized (S,M,L,XL) person. So the USCG would be 10% bigger, that seems like quite a bit to me, and it feels like it.

50 refers to newtons. 50 newtons is the smallest buoyancy aid you can get with a CE marking. Frankly this is probably not enough for long distance racers, but fine for around the buoys when a safety boat is in attendance. Hence the name "buoyancy aid".

The smallest adult US PFD, type I, is 22 lbs, aka 98 newtons. This has almost twice the buoyancy of a CE buoyancy aid and is pretty damn close to a 100 newtons CE Life Jacket. Note, those are no longer called buoyancy aid, but life jacket.

References: CE; US.



Mmmm. Not quite. The type almost universally worn is a USCG Type III, which has only 15.5 lbs = 69 newtons of flotation.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mbounds] #209566
04/26/10 03:59 PM
04/26/10 03:59 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Thanks, Matt - I was in the middle of comparing gear. You saved me the time.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209568
04/26/10 04:41 PM
04/26/10 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

Re the Racing Rules.
The essence of the rules is to establish the ground rules for fair competition...

Right

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

My observation is that the class members ignore this prescription.... therefore, I choose to fall in line with the class philosophy...

A personal choice that could land you in the room if there are sailors at the event who do not prescribe to this chosen philosophy…

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

Therefore, my personal choice is to judge that I am not gaining an unfair advantage and I am also consistent with the class culture in not enforcing that prescription on my competitors…

That would actually be up to the jury to decide. Trust me, no one wants to be in these protests, including the judges.

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

If protested by a class member who does not exercise good judgment, I will dsq myself before the hearing and allow the class members to deal with the aftermath…

Yeah, let it be someone else’s problem… Please…
Actually, the correct scoring would be RAF, and the jury may elect to hear the protest anyway, which could lead to a “slightly different” score.

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

If the PRO or RC protests me... I will dsq myself and never return to the event…

Now THAT will teach them!

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

As I noted... good judgment is needed all around...

I agree…

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209569
04/26/10 04:55 PM
04/26/10 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
…And, I would never protest anyone over a PFD issue (unless as a PRO, forced by the rule regarding a measurer's report, etc.).

For the avoidance of doubt:

RRS 60.2: However, when the race committee receives a report required by rule 43.1(c) or 78.3, it shall protest the boat.

RRS 43.1(c) When an equipment inspector or a measurer in charge of weighing clothing and equipment believes a competitor may have broken rule 43.1(a) or 43.1(b) he shall report the matter in writing to the race committee.

RRS 78.3 When an equipment inspector or a measurer for an event decides that a boat or personal equipment does not comply with the class rules, he shall report the matter in writing to the race committee.

So, Rule 2 aside, if your event has a measurer that is part of a culture that accepts certain rules to be broken, you won’t be likely to be protested by an RC or PC (certainly not by me), unless there is some other agenda.

We are really trained to serve the sailors, but obviously, there are things that can get out of hand. While a lot of this is common sense and good judgement is expected, this is one of the few areas of the rule book where the RC is actually required to protest.

Remember, you could always be protested by another competitor, unless there is language in the approved SIs that take away that option (as we were discussing earlier in the thread).

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: pepin] #209585
04/27/10 02:44 AM
04/27/10 02:44 AM
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Quote

Note, those are no longer called buoyancy aid, but life jacket.



Just to clarify things to all.

Bouyancy aids are merely intended to not have you watertreading to keep your airways sufficiently above water. As such you can survive longer without wearing yourself out or when you cramp up.

Life vest are indeed a whole different category.

In my opinion it is very wise to make a differentiation between the two uses as CE has done.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mbounds] #209587
04/27/10 04:10 AM
04/27/10 04:10 AM
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France
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Mmmm. Not quite. The type almost universally worn is a USCG Type III, which has only 15.5 lbs = 69 newtons of flotation.
Duh. Yeah, like Matt said.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: pepin] #209588
04/27/10 04:13 AM
04/27/10 04:13 AM
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If you looked at the rules very strictly then one of these would be allowed right?
Provided it is USCG approved obviously...
[Linked Image]

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tony_F18] #209602
04/27/10 08:26 AM
04/27/10 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
If you looked at the rules very strictly then one of these would be allowed right?
Provided it is USCG approved obviously...
[Linked Image]


Yup - some teams have been wearing that kind of manually inflatable PFD in the Tybee...I've got a USCG approved one I'm going to try and see if I like it. I'm a little worried about the lack of personal storage though.


(and hey! all of a sudden I can get back on here at work...wonder how long that will last?).


Jake Kohl
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tony_F18] #209604
04/27/10 08:38 AM
04/27/10 08:38 AM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
If you looked at the rules very strictly then one of these would be allowed right?
Provided it is USCG approved obviously...

If that's a Type V PFD, then:
  1. in order to count as being on board, it must be worn, and
  2. the wearer must be 16 years or older.
Inflatable PFDs (especially automatic inflation PFDs) are not a popular choice for catsailors. They can inflate at inconvenient times - such as if you get teabagged, or snag the pull-tab on a shroud. They also need more maintenance and must be rearmed (at additional cost) after activation.

Regards,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Jake] #209605
04/27/10 08:56 AM
04/27/10 08:56 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
If you looked at the rules very strictly then one of these would be allowed right?
Provided it is USCG approved obviously...
[Linked Image]


Yup - some teams have been wearing that kind of manually inflatable PFD in the Tybee...I've got a USCG approved one I'm going to try and see if I like it. I'm a little worried about the lack of personal storage though.


(and hey! all of a sudden I can get back on here at work...wonder how long that will last?).


I've got one and stopped using it because it's not very comfy,can accidentally deploy, and it doesn't give you any impact protection(shrouds, daggerboards ,booms). I've found I need that more lately.
Plus, Jake, everytime I can get close enough to you,on or off the boat, I'm gonna pull your ripcord.
Tawd


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209608
04/27/10 09:23 AM
04/27/10 09:23 AM
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Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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The PFD Conundrum is that they hinder swimming and tend to crawl up over the head when floating stationary. But true when not in use they do actually work pretty good. grin


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tony_F18] #209610
04/27/10 10:15 AM
04/27/10 10:15 AM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
If you looked at the rules very strictly then one of these would be allowed right?
Provided it is USCG approved obviously...


I know someone who uses one of those, but he's disabled it to prevent accidental discharge. That strikes me as 1) not meeting the rule any better than a CE vest, and 2) not meeting minimum self-preservation standards.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209611
04/27/10 10:25 AM
04/27/10 10:25 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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If you get knocked out the inflatables are useless. The auto ones will deploy on a cat due to the amount of spray and a manual won't do a thing when your bell got rung. To me they are WAY less safe than a CE approved vest, yet they are deemed CG certified and if I recall the logic was they are more comfortable and users are more likely to wear them. Exactly the same argument FOR a CE approved vest.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209612
04/27/10 10:27 AM
04/27/10 10:27 AM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
I know someone who uses one of those, but he's disabled it to prevent accidental discharge. That strikes me as 1) not meeting the rule any better than a CE vest, and 2) not meeting minimum self-preservation standards.
USCG regulations require PFDs to be in good working condition. If the inflator has been disabled, he is in violation of the law and the rules.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209616
04/27/10 11:39 AM
04/27/10 11:39 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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The modification to a jacket issue was raised in the Tornado class at the OCR's here on catsailor a few years ago. (some flotation was removed) Photo's of the modification provided primae facia evidence.

Result.... the class culture trumped the rules in the judgment of the sailors in that class and life went on without a DSQ.

So, ... What's the problem?.... Why the photo's in the first place? Answer, The class culture is hardly transparent! The RRS, Appeals book, Prescriptions and Class rule book are down in print.... available to anyone. Class culture... not so much. The Tornado poster was not up to speed on this particular fudge at the time. In the end... it all worked out.

JW reports that he personally survey's the entries at a regatta and picks from the quiver of vests.... The solution to his conundrum is for the F18 class to exercise their collective judgment and get the word out.

Remember... the entire hullabaloo came to the fore about a DSQ at an important junior regatta where the OA made it clear before hand that they would be checking for USCG vests. The DSQ'd sailor used poor judgment in this case. The adults decided to over ride any class culture in the junior classes... One can always question their judgment.... your milage may vary. Setting the kid issues aside...

The conundrum is simply a class issue.







crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209617
04/27/10 11:44 AM
04/27/10 11:44 AM
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Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I know plenty of guys who spend large sums of money to save ounces on their boats, like buying titanium bolts to swap out for stainless,etc. .You are going to have a hard time convincing these people to carry an "extra"life jacket ...
If their need to "save ounces" outweighs their need to obey the law and follow the rules, then nothing I say will convince them. I trust that none of us here fall into that group. Does anybody here honestly believe that they have to break the law in order to win a race?



Believe it!:

[Linked Image]

This competitor opened up his already ligthweight Zhik (CE Approved) jacket and removed more "bulk" floation, re-stitching with the white thread. Point was to make it less wind draggy...not so much to make it lighter. This was at a US National Tornado event. There were others at the event doing similar alterations.

crazy


Last edited by Tornado; 04/27/10 11:45 AM.

Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209619
04/27/10 12:00 PM
04/27/10 12:00 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Actually, Mark, the OA for the event was US SAILING and ABYC was the host. They were mute on equipment inspections - they put it onto the competitors where it should be, but then made some things not protestable by "a boat." What occurred prior to the first start was one competitor said to another, "if you wear that, I will protest you." The scuttlebutt is that the response from the coach was, "you can't." So after the last race, the girl went to the PRO to complain. The PRO felt obligated to lodge the protest since the competitor couldn't. Only the winner was protested, though there were many breaking the same rule.

I just learned last night that at a major college event here last weekend, an on-the-water umpire put up the black flag on a girl that was not wearing a PFD. In the room, she told a plausible story why she didn't have it on at the moment and she was not DSQ'd. The team that had the most to lose did not file an appeal because they'd beaten the PFD girl's team... but then a scoring error was discovered the next day that flip-flops their finish position. What do you want to bet the appeal gets filed now? In the mean time, a judge has indicated that the umpire erred and cannot file against a competitor for a PFD violation.

I love this game.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209620
04/27/10 12:19 PM
04/27/10 12:19 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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well, it all could be avoided by wearing a USCG approved jacket.


David Ingram
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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209622
04/27/10 12:21 PM
04/27/10 12:21 PM
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France
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So far you talked about US vs CE PFD and the fact that the CE ones are more comfortable. Fine. When I was in the US I was using a US PFD and yes, it was bulky and uncomfortable. I see the point of using a CE one for around the buoys racing. As long as it is tolerated by the "class culture", fine. Not that I care, being in Europe...

But I would protest in a heartbeat a competitor wearing a modified PFD. Not because I would gain an advantage in doing so, but because as safety coxwain at my sailing club I am aware that a properly fitted PFD can save lives. And I would hate to see a slippery slope where all competitors start modifying their PFDs because "this other guy did it". I would not give a damn about "class culture" in that case.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: David Ingram] #209623
04/27/10 12:29 PM
04/27/10 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
well, it all could be avoided by wearing a USCG approved jacket.


What is that... an echo???

I've only said that about 3 separate times here, no one has yet given a valid answer to dispute this.

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209624
04/27/10 12:33 PM
04/27/10 12:33 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Ahh, my black-and-white friends. Nobody is or can dispute it. Please remember that I began this thread with the acknowledgement that a CE vest doesn't meet the rules most of the time in the US... the conversation that interests me is why it is such a widely ignored rule.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209625
04/27/10 12:44 PM
04/27/10 12:44 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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John,
I have a different regatta in mind.

It all comes down to judgment.... there is no way around it.
If the class doesn't make it clear what the unwritten standards are, you KNOW, some individuals will use the rules as a weapon to win..... IMO, Those classes tend not to thrive! College sailing??... well it maybe a good thing that most of those sailors don't continue in the sport.

I think the choices are Change the Class... or Change classes.
Heck when I got an A cat... I was proudly told that the class NA's had not had a protest hearing in years... Hmmm... the class culture was clear... take the penalty on the water.... If you really had a tough call... use the arbitration process.

(I am not totally convinced this is a good culture in the extreme... but the horror stories in other classes are pretty grim so the class culture is fine.... at any rate... it was certainly clear to me what the culture was with respect to protests.)


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209626
04/27/10 12:49 PM
04/27/10 12:49 PM
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tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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How is this thread different from the rule thread we just went though regarding leeward boats. The outcome of that thread was the rule is the rule and it must be followed. Adjust as you must to follow the rule.

This PFD thread seams to paralleling that thread but with much different attitudes. We don't get to pick and choose what rules we want to follow!


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209627
04/27/10 12:53 PM
04/27/10 12:53 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Well John, it's not the only rule that widely ignored it's just one that is easily seen, and there is always a rationalization at the ready whenever an infraction is pointed out.

Also with the rationalizations used here why should anyone obey the mark of the course off the Cape during the Tybee 500? The penalty has never been enforced and with the advice given here people should continue to ignore the mark until the OA decides to change the rule. Or you could just wait for the U.S. government to enforce the rule but the outcome will probably be criticized for being over the top. I mean really who the F!@# is the government to tell us what we can and can't do?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John Williams] #209628
04/27/10 12:53 PM
04/27/10 12:53 PM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Ahh, my black-and-white friends. Nobody is or can dispute it. Please remember that I began this thread with the acknowledgement that a CE vest doesn't meet the rules most of the time in the US... the conversation that interests me is why it is such a widely ignored rule.


A protest or two could cure that.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: David Ingram] #209629
04/27/10 01:06 PM
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ah... come on Dave.... shorting the mark on the tybee is clearly unfair and cheating.....

Nobody is arguing that one and you raise a false equivalence.

Wearing a CE versus a coast guard jacket is breaking the rule. no question. black and white.. If protested... RAF or go to the room and take the dsq.

... Is it cheating?
I argue.. class culture (before my time) says No.
In your class.... feel free to say yes and make the class a letter of the rule class.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209630
04/27/10 01:21 PM
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Black and white is easy. Easy is good. There are more than enough difficult things in this sport (especially for a PRO), why can't we take the easy ones where we can?

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209631
04/27/10 01:26 PM
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Why... because it's a performance sport... the game is to push the envelope within a rule set... the PFD rule is not viewed quite the same way as sail area.


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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209632
04/27/10 01:34 PM
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You're pushing outside the rule set. The rule couldn't possibly be any simpler. It's only when you try to figure out reasons that you don't like the rule that you run into trouble.

This is (or at least should be) such a non-issue, it's ridiculous.

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209633
04/27/10 01:34 PM
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So if people believe there is a performance advantage to using CE vests over USCG vests (weight, air drag & comfort) then there needs to be a mechanism to protest there use until they are deemed legal to level the field.


Mike Dobbs
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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209634
04/27/10 02:04 PM
04/27/10 02:04 PM
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So are you saying any rule that doesn't allow a competitive advantage if broken should be removed?

Also if you're going to put your eggs in the 'it doesn't provide a competitive edge' basket it could be argued that the CE jacket allows a competitor to move more freely and efficiently than someone wearing an USCG approved jacket and therefore the CE jacket sailor has a competitive advantage.

We can sit here and debate this all day but and the end of the day it’s a rule, it’s being broken and should be enforced just like any other rule. There is no wiggle room with this rule and USSailing went out of their way to make sure there is no wiggle room.


David Ingram
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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tornado] #209636
04/27/10 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tornado
So if people believe there is a performance advantage to using CE vests over USCG vests (weight, air drag & comfort) then there needs to be a mechanism to protest there use until they are deemed legal to level the field.


Not necessarily.. This CE/CG issue is not subject to a level playing field treatment...That's just a red herring issue in the discussion..

Performance issues are handled in the rules of the class... It's not in any international class class rules which deal with performance boundaries in various ways.. (formula SMOD and One Design). Sail area is viewed as a performance factor and rules for a level playing field are established... CE/ Coastguard jackets are not viewed this way...

It's also not in the RRS of sailing. which is not dealing with performance issues.

It's uniquely in the US Prescriptions as a safety prescription. You can protest the letter of the law violation... which is on safety equipment requirements... not that it's a performance issue. The rational as to why you might pick a CE vest or not carry the throwable is irrelevant.

No one argues that you can't file the protest and win.
It's Black and White... present your vest... CE or CG Boom! .... As Dave says... its a rule...

Being in the prescriptions... its not a world wide rule... In some classes... the rule is not enforced by the class members because of the class culture.

The question is... In the Tornado class... should you have filed the protest? My experience in the class was that such a protest would be frowned upon...(class culture and your judgment).

Obviously, in the F18's... expect Dave to protest any individuals who don't carry the throw able and does not have a CG vest on board.




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tornado] #209637
04/27/10 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tornado
...This competitor opened up his already ligthweight Zhik (CE Approved) jacket and removed more "bulk" floation, re-stitching with the white thread. Point was to make it less wind draggy...not so much to make it lighter. This was at a US National Tornado event. There were others at the event doing similar alterations.

I'm not passing judgement on this particular incident, but I would characterize that kind of action as:
Intentionally breaking a rule for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage
or, more simply as:
cheating.

Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209639
04/27/10 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
It all comes down to judgment.... there is no way around it.

While I agree that good judgement is very important, I don't think that "judgement" is the crux of this issue. I feel that the key point is "sportsmanship". Good sportsmanship may sometimes mean overlooking trivial infractions, but it always means following the rules - all the rules, even the ones you may not like.

Quote
If the class doesn't make it clear what the unwritten standards are, you KNOW, some individuals will use the rules as a weapon to win..... IMO, Those classes tend not to thrive!

Well, by their very nature, unwritten standards tend to be unclear. I've sailed with classes where protesting is highly discouraged. My observation is not that "some individuals will use the rules as a weapon to win", but that some will take advantage of that "culture" to get away with breaking the rules. That's when honest competitors get discouraged and leave.

Let me give a more concrete example. In a multi-class regatta, I was sailing on starboard tack and had to take action to avoid another boat in a different class on port tack. I hailed "protest", he did his turns, and we sailed on. When we got to shore, the other skipper complained that I had nothing to gain and should not have protested him. He felt that I had wronged him by enforcing the rules. So, I asked him "What makes you think that the rules shouldn't apply to you"?

I ask you the same question. What makes you think the rules shouldn't apply to you?

Sincerely,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209640
04/27/10 03:26 PM
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From what I understand it isnt even required to actually wear the PFD? But it must only be easilly accesible?
So basically you could stuff both into a bag and tie it to the tramp and no-one would be able to protest you?
(Assuming you sail in open-class obviously).

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #209641
04/27/10 03:29 PM
04/27/10 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
If you get knocked out the inflatables are useless. The auto ones will deploy on a cat due to the amount of spray and a manual won't do a thing when your bell got rung. To me they are WAY less safe than a CE approved vest, yet they are deemed CG certified and if I recall the logic was they are more comfortable and users are more likely to wear them. Exactly the same argument FOR a CE approved vest.


With all your gear on I doubt you would float face up with a regular PFD anyway (lots of rear flotation in the harness)...so if you're unconscious, you still have a problem...though at least you have a better chance at being near the surface.


Jake Kohl
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Jake] #209642
04/27/10 03:31 PM
04/27/10 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
If you get knocked out the inflatables are useless. The auto ones will deploy on a cat due to the amount of spray and a manual won't do a thing when your bell got rung. To me they are WAY less safe than a CE approved vest, yet they are deemed CG certified and if I recall the logic was they are more comfortable and users are more likely to wear them. Exactly the same argument FOR a CE approved vest.


With all your gear on I doubt you would float face up with a regular PFD anyway (lots of rear flotation in the harness)...so if you're unconscious, you still have a problem...though at least you have a better chance at being near the surface.


It's still gonna be fun to watch your eyes bug out when I yank your "chain".


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

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If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tony_F18] #209643
04/27/10 03:32 PM
04/27/10 03:32 PM
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From what I have observed over the years.

The US rules have evolved from:
-requiring a pfd on board
-requiring a pfd to be worn while racing
-requiring a USCG Type-X pfd to be worn while racing

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209644
04/27/10 03:36 PM
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In all fairness, I should also say that I am not entirely happy with this prescription either. I believe that US SAILING's intent was to make the sport safer (by providing a racing penalty for failure to carry appropriate life-saving equipment). Unfortunately, they did it in the context of law enforcement. That makes competitors, race committee, and especially protest committee responsible for interpreting law - which is not our area of expertise. The USCG regulations are not all cut-and-dried, and I certainly don't look forward to researching state and local laws when I attend a regatta. Likewise, I don't want to turn a competitor over to a LEO just to get a competent opinion.

Sailors will already be upset for getting disqualified - imagine how unhappy they'll be getting fined too.

Regards,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209648
04/27/10 03:48 PM
04/27/10 03:48 PM
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Quote
I ask you the same question. What makes you think the rules shouldn't apply to you?


Ah... but its not ME....

It's my Class and their collective unwritten consensus that has decided that the CE/USG and Type 4 rule is not relevant to sportsmanship, competition in the class, nor is this disruptive to the general order of sailboat racing world wide.

Your example speaks to the unfair interference of one sailor with the race of another sailor. The RRS managed the conflict.

I don't see the parallel to this issue. My not having a thowable does not impact on your racing. My wearing a CE vest does not interfere with your racing. My competitors in the class don't care either.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mikekrantz] #209649
04/27/10 04:18 PM
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Regarding:
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
From what I understand it isnt even required to actually wear the PFD? But it must only be easilly accesible?
So basically you could stuff both into a bag and tie it to the tramp and no-one would be able to protest you?
(Assuming you sail in open-class obviously).
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
From what I have observed over the years.

The US rules have evolved from:
-requiring a pfd on board
-requiring a pfd to be worn while racing
-requiring a USCG Type-X pfd to be worn while racing

Now, I'm no expert on USCG regulations, let alone state or local boating laws. Furthermore, there are several exceptions, and exceptions to the exceptions the way things are written. Also, US SAILING has no control over when, where, and how the laws may change. That said, here are some of the basic laws/rules as I understand them:
  • Children under 13 must either wear an appropriate USCG approved PFD, or be below deck in an enclosed cabin.
  • If RC has correctly displayed code flag "Y", competitors must wear PFDs while racing. Rules 27.1 and 40 do not specify that the worn PFDs meet any particular certification standard.
  • A recreational vessel may not be used unless at least one USCG Type I, II, III, or V PFD is on board for each person. Furthermore, the PFDs must be readily accessible, in good condition, and of an appropriate size.
  • USCG Type V PFDs only count as being aboard if they are being worn, and may only be used by persons 16 years or older.
  • If the recreational vessel is 16 or more feet long, it may not be used unless a Type IV (throwable) PFD is on board in an immediately accessible location.

Except for children under 13 years old, or when the "Y" flag is flown, or for Type V PFDs) there is no requirement that PFDs actually be worn - just that they be on board.

Except for children under 13, there is no requirement that the PFD worn be USCG certified - just that certified PFDs be on board.

Regarding the "Y" flag, there is an ongoing discussion in the race management community. Some people feel that RC should use it when prudent. Others think it's a de-facto admission of liability and an invitation to lawsuits. The skipper of each boat is ultimately responsible for the safety of all those on board.

Regards,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209652
04/27/10 04:30 PM
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Class rules and Offshore Regs also come into play. Quite often, PFDs are specifically required to be worn.

Lots of OAs like to "emphasize" the point by adding language for PFD requirements to NORs and SIs. As a PRO, all I care about is whether such language conflicts with the "trump" rules, such as class rules or RRS (including Rx). The RRS tells us what can (or cannot) be changed by SIs...

Interesting point about the throwables on 16 foot boats. Most, if not all, Hobies at points regattas fall into this size range, and I think I can count on one hand how many throwables I've ever seen on any Hobie Cat in a points regatta. I've never seen a protest for this at a Hobie event, either. That would be an interesting way to "win" a North Americans...

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209653
04/27/10 04:37 PM
04/27/10 04:37 PM
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John Williams Offline OP
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Mike and Eric - this is the sort of discourse I was hoping for from you two in particular. Thanks for your continued indulgence.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209654
04/27/10 04:55 PM
04/27/10 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
I ask you the same question. What makes you think the rules shouldn't apply to you?


Ah... but its not ME....
Does that mean you acknowledge that this rule does apply to you, and that you are obligated to comply, whether or not anybody protests you?

Quote
It's my Class and their collective unwritten consensus that has decided that the CE/USG and Type 4 rule is not relevant to sportsmanship, competition in the class, nor is this disruptive to the general order of sailboat racing world wide.

Try weighing "collective unwritten consensus" against "authoritative written rule". Sportsmanship includes following the rules. Implicit group collusion to ignore the rules does not constitute good sportsmanship.

Quote
Your example speaks to the unfair interference of one sailor with the race of another sailor. The RRS managed the conflict.

I don't see the parallel to this issue. My not having a thowable does not impact on your racing. My wearing a CE vest does not interfere with your racing. My competitors in the class don't care either.

Personally, I don't care what PFD you choose to wear either. My point is that you both rationalized your infractions with the argument of "no harm, no foul". Furthermore, both you and he blame not yourselves for breaking a rule, but others for enforcing it.

If you break a rule (especially with premeditation and intent), don't blame someone else when you get penalized. It is your own fault.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209655
04/27/10 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
I've never seen a protest for this at a Hobie event, either. That would be an interesting way to "win" a North Americans...

Mike

But...if you are at an event which uses foreign charter boats I guess they would qualify as "passing through" and then the USCG requirement wouldn't apply?

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tony_F18] #209656
04/27/10 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
But...if you are at an event which uses foreign charter boats I guess they would qualify as "passing through" and then the USCG requirement wouldn't apply?

Yes, I said there were exceptions to the exceptions. Foreign nationality boats throws another variable into the equation. I hope this shows why I don't relish the thought of adjudicating one of these protests.

Regards,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tony_F18] #209657
04/27/10 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Originally Posted by brucat
I've never seen a protest for this at a Hobie event, either. That would be an interesting way to "win" a North Americans...

Mike

But...if you are at an event which uses foreign charter boats I guess they would qualify as "passing through" and then the USCG requirement wouldn't apply?


That would apply to the "foreigners" but if a US sailor won on a US boat in US waters...

And now we've officially come full-circle back to the original post in this thread. frown

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209659
04/27/10 05:25 PM
04/27/10 05:25 PM
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Quote
If you break a rule (especially with premeditation and intent), don't blame someone else when you get penalized. It is your own fault.



Who am I blaming?

Don't tag me that way... I have repeatedly said.. the rules apply. If protested... I will either RAF (you were correct) or Go through the hearing and get DSQ'd.

Look... as Sarah Palin would note... I am one of those fish just going with the flow set out by the class

Mike notes how few of the Hobie sailors carry a throwable in points regattas ... They are also going with the flow.

Quote
Sportsmanship includes following the rules. Implicit group collusion to ignore the rules does not constitute good sportsmanship.


Hmm... playing basketball... the rules describe a foul. Every player understands the court rules and what the threshold for a foul is. At the NBA level... you don't see a player standing up and calling a foul on himself. When there is a consensus of the competitors that the aformentioned rule is not significant to the competitive game. I assert that this is not poor sportsmanship... Your milage may vary.

The interesting question is what role does the PRO and Race Committee and marks boat people have in enforcing these rules.

Should they go looking for violations?

Should they listen to competitors who want some one else to raise the issue and go check out the gear of tagged sailor and file the protest?

Should they ignore the complaint and tell the competitor to file their protest themselves?

Should someone in another class on the race course be able to protest this violation?



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209660
04/27/10 05:38 PM
04/27/10 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

Look... as Sarah Palin would note... I am one of those fish just going with the flow set out by the class


Actually, I think her quote was something about being all mavericky and going against the flow...dead fish "go with the flow"

smirk


Mike Dobbs
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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209664
04/27/10 07:12 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Who am I blaming?

If I've misunderstood your previous posts, I'll gladly retract my statements. Perhaps you can shed some light on:
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
If protested by a class member who does not exercise good judgment, I will dsq myself before the hearing and allow the class members to deal with the aftermath.
and
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
...some individuals will use the rules as a weapon to win.
and
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
If the class you sail in does not have members with good judgment... instead of changing the vest... change the class or switch to a class with no fools!
and
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I think the choices are Change the Class... or Change classes.
where it looks to me like you plan to blame other competitors if they ever enforce this rule.

Also:
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
If the PRO or RC protests me... I will dsq myself and never return to the event.
where it looks like you will blame RC.

Quote
Don't tag me that way... I have repeatedly said.. the rules apply. If protested... I will either RAF (you were correct) or Go through the hearing and get DSQ'd.

Look... as Sarah Palin would note... I am one of those fish just going with the flow set out by the class

Really, I don't want to tag you or anybody that way. I'd be much happier to be wrong, but when you say things like:
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
My observation is that the class members ignore this prescription.... therefore, I choose to fall in line with the class philosophy.
that sounds uncomfortably like "everybody else cheats so why shouldn't I?".

Quote
At the NBA level... you don't see a player standing up and calling a foul on himself. When there is a consensus of the competitors that the aformentioned rule is not significant to the competitive game. I assert that this is not poor sportsmanship...
I wouldn't hold up the NBA as the epitome of sportsmanship.

Here's another anecdote. A couple of years back, I was helping out on RC for a Special Olympics regatta. In one of the classes (sailed on Hobie 16s), each athelete was paired with a "unified partner". Coming up to the finish line in light wind, I saw one partner blatantly and repeatedly ooching. I said to her "You're ooching" and she replied "that's what they teach us to do in college sailing". I then said "This is not college sailing, we expect a higher standard here".

At the professional level, you can count on sailors using any rule they can to beat another boat. After all, that is what they're paid for. At the club level, sailors let a lot of infractions slide because social harmony is more important than winning. In a sport with "corinthian values", however, this places a higher ethical standard on the sailors to obey the rules without outside enforcement.

Quote
The interesting question is what role does the PRO and Race Committee and marks boat people have in enforcing these rules.

Should they go looking for violations?

Should they listen to competitors who want some one else to raise the issue and go check out the gear of tagged sailor and file the protest?

Should they ignore the complaint and tell the competitor to file their protest themselves?

Should someone in another class on the race course be able to protest this violation?

I refer you again to the "Basic Principle" section of the rules:
Quote
Sportsmanship and the Rules
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.
Sailing is a self-policed sport. The competitors themselves are primarily responsible for enforcing the rules. Note the fundamental principle of sportsmanship means that you take a penalty when you break a rule - even if you aren't protested.

While race committee may protest (see RRS 60.2(a)), they are usually under no obligation to do so (exceptions exist). When competitors are in a position to witness and infraction and protest but do not, RC rarely takes it upon themselves to do so. Think of it as a hierarchy of responsibility:
  1. You are primarily responsible for following the rules.
  2. If you don't, competitors are primarily responsible for enforcing them.
  3. If RC witnesses an infraction where competitors could not, RC may enforce them. RC also enforces rules when appropriate, such as starting penalties and measurement violations. Protest Committee can also get involved if the need arises.
Sometimes, RC does perform safety inspections (especially for youth regattas). I have heard equipment protests filed by RC regarding lack of personal safety equipment witnessed on the dock.

A boat may protest a boat in another class. The rules don't make any distinction on class membership.

Sincerely,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Member Area D Appeals Committee

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209669
04/27/10 09:39 PM
04/27/10 09:39 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Sea lawyers/politicians tend to act as if properly written regulation could protect people from everything and anything - even from their own ignorance. This is simply not true.

The real answer is education. Informed people CHOOSE to wear a proper jacket for safety, not because it is required by a rule.

As a result, the rules become longer and more complex every year. Sailors will soon need legal advisors to compete. Actually, a few olympic teams already include lawyers. If it continues this way only lawyers will be able to compete... Hey! Maybe this is their secret goal!

You know how some governments tax more than is legal? They make complex/long/contradictory regulations to the tax law, so that it becomes (nearly) impossible to comply with it. Then people become permanently exposed to extorsion and fines.

The complete ruling on any issue should be inconstitutional if it is too complex/long/contradictory to be understood and complied with.

Anyway, about ten years ago I decided that what I like is sailing, not rules, so I simply don't cross the finish line anymore. It works. I have all the fun and zero exposure to sea lawyers.

Have fun!

Last edited by Luiz; 04/27/10 09:42 PM.

Luiz
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209671
04/27/10 10:14 PM
04/27/10 10:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Eric
This is becoming a semantic argument on the meaning of terms "cheat" and "blame".

Obviously, I am not bent out of shape at the catch 22 necessity to nullify the US Sailing prescription. The class I sail in does not have a problem with this nullification. As a judge, it would be inappropriate for you to agree with any move to nullify one of the rules.

I reject the use of the loaded words of "cheat and blame".

Quote
My observation is that the class members ignore this prescription.... therefore, I choose to fall in line with the class philosophy.
that sounds uncomfortably like "everybody else cheats so why shouldn't I?".


You say cheat... I say the class (or 100 percent of the sailors in the class in the last three years that I have encountered in the class) ignores that prescription and chooses not to enforce that rule. The term would be nullify.

I use the word cheat to mean that I seek an advantage through some shady or unethical means or breaking a rule to gain an advantage. When there is no advantage gained or lost I believe the term cheat is mis applied. Ignored or nullified would be a better word.

You suggest that I am blaming an individual who chooses to ignore the class culture and file a protest based on this prescription. The word blame to me means that I assign some misplaced moral judgment on the individual and defer some of my responsibility to the individual filing this protest.

I would say that I have identified an individual who was uninformed about the class culture with respect to this prescription. He was essentially ignorant of this unwritten rule. I don't blame that individual. I chose to not follow the rule and follow the class culture. I am clear that I accept responsibility and am not shifting any of that to the protesting individual.

I would assign BLAME to someone who was NOT ignorant of the class unwritten rule and used the Class 4 rule as a weapon to get a win in the jury room in defiance of years of class history. I can't say he would be cheating, he is exercising the letter of the rule ... I would blame him for his unsportsmanlike behavior in getting a win this way.

My statement about changing the class or change classes is simply a practical course of action when the culture is in doubt

With respect to regattas and PRO's.
Just like I don't return to regattas that don't spell out the class splits before hand because in my opinion they don't demonstrate good judgment or follow the guidelines for an official notice of race. I would not choose to return to a club that chooses to have their PRO go out of the way to challenge the class culture on this rule.

I take responsibility for my nullification of the Sailing prescription... the PRO takes responsibility for people not showing up the next year. I would not use the word blame to describe this turn of events. I would use the word accountability.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209675
04/27/10 10:38 PM
04/27/10 10:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
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I am not responding to anyone or taking a side, I just can't see myself checking my race mate's PFD.

I understand that safety is paramount. I do everything that I can to comply and a few more things as well. I admit that I don't know the tecnical differences between the two devices. Why would somebody competing with me give a crap about what PFD I am wearing? Are CE PFD's faster? Am I getting an unfair advantage? Is it just a way to win when you didn't win? Rules are rules, I get that.. But come on... win at all cost? For whatever reason?


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209687
04/28/10 03:52 AM
04/28/10 03:52 AM
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John_C Offline
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Off topic, but I just learned this recently after getting into a discussion with a college racing team person. The person that was ooching was not cheating by college rules, and most probably aren't informed that they have their own set of rules so they don't know any better. The person I was talking to was certain they were right, so I did some research and found these links.

from: http://www.collegesailing.org/archive/2009-2012_PR_And_2009_CDCR.pdf
7.4.2 RRS 42.2(c) is changed to read: “Except on a beat to windward, when surfing (rapidly
accelerating down the leeward side of a wave) or planing is possible, ooching (sudden
forward body movement, stopped abruptly) is permitted in order to initiate surfing or
planing.”


I also said something to the effect that changes would have to be in the NOR, and they said it wasn't. Near the top of the above link it says that in an ICSA regatta that this document is to be considered in the NOR.

Originally Posted by Isotope42


Here's another anecdote. A couple of years back, I was helping out on RC for a Special Olympics regatta. In one of the classes (sailed on Hobie 16s), each athelete was paired with a "unified partner". Coming up to the finish line in light wind, I saw one partner blatantly and repeatedly ooching. I said to her "You're ooching" and she replied "that's what they teach us to do in college sailing". I then said "This is not college sailing, we expect a higher standard here".

Member Area D Appeals Committee

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John_C] #209689
04/28/10 05:21 AM
04/28/10 05:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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My take :
If the rules of the country say you must wear a USCG compliant pfd for you to sail offshore, whether racing or not, then you`re breaking the US law by not doing so. Separate issue from the Sailing Instructions altogether.
If the SI or NOR say the pfd must be USCG certified, it`s a closed subject. Don`t comply, don`t race.
My opinion on why the RO did not disqualify the girl in John`s original post : They would have to disqualify half the fleet from the regatta after the regatta was run. Not good for getting them to come back next event. They should have either issued a warning at the skipper`s briefing, or dsq-ed those guilty after the first race, and given them time to return to shore to change pfd`s before the 2nd race (not always possible, but a reasonable way to resolve this). By issuing a warning to only the winner, they have acted rather badly in my opinion, as the rest of the fleet did not receive the same treatment.
The question of which one is more comfortable, floats you better etc is not relevant, until you get the law changed.

Curious question : How does the CG feel about you floating at sea in a non-CG certified pfd when they pick you up, are you then liable for the cost of the rescue mssion ? Can you justify this by saying your CG certified one is strapped to the tramp of your recently sunk catamaran ? If so, you`d better be sure it sank. wink

I`m just contributing to this thread as I see two distinctly separate issues here : Obeying the rules of sailing, and obeying the law. When the SI`s refer to a specific law to be obeyed, then there is no room for not doing the right thing, even if it`s uncomfortable, which "safe" pfds almost always are, and life-vests even more so, unfortunately.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #209695
04/28/10 06:51 AM
04/28/10 06:51 AM
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Bob_Curry Offline
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I understand the "uncomfortable" USCG PFD issue. One solution is to wear a USCG approved inflatable waistpack! If freedom of movement is your issue, there is no substitute. It is not in any way bulky and doesn't ride up in your face. I don't do any offshore distance racing so this is a good fit for me when planning inshore races with other boats around. Yes, I have one, wear it often, and most of the marine retailers carry them.

Bob wink


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.”
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209700
04/28/10 08:38 AM
04/28/10 08:38 AM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Let me preface this post by stating that my regular class has the same "culture". We don't protest on technicalitites. I certainly don't intend to protest someone for not carrying the proper complement of USCG certified PFDs. Nor will I protest them for not carrying a paddle (which is required by our class rules), nor for a number of other rules that don't make a difference to boat performance.

Now, I'm in the market for a new PFD. My old one is - old. There may be nicer non-USCG Certified PFDs available (more comfortable, more features, whatever), but I will limit my choice to one that is certified. I have no doubt that I could get away with a non-certified PFD. Nobody in my fleet would protest me, and if ever inspected, I don't think I'd get ticketed. Nevertheless, the rules and the law require me to carry PFDs that are USCG certified, so that's what I'll do.

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
As a judge, it would be inappropriate for you to agree with any move to nullify one of the rules.

Actually, I've already stated that I'm sympathetic to that cause. There is no rational reason that a CE certified PFD can't be just as effective as a USCG certified PFD. I've also expressed my dislike that the wording of the rule puts us in the position of interpreting the law. Nevertheless, Coast Guard certification is the litmus test of efficacy in the US. My disagreement with the regulations does not excuse me from following them.

Quote
This is becoming a semantic argument on the meaning of terms "cheat" and "blame".

I reject the use of the loaded words of "cheat and blame".

Very well then, I will make the same argument without using perjorative terms other than your own. It will take a little longer.

Quote
My observation is that the class members ignore this prescription.... therefore, I choose to fall in line with the class philosophy.

If I may break this statement down logically, I see this as your argument (please correct me if it is inaccurate):
  1. Many of my competitors regularly break this rule.
  2. Never has anybody protested them for it.
  3. Therefore, breaking this rule is acceptable and correct ethical behavior.
In other words "everybody else does it so it's ok".

Quote
I have identified an individual who was uninformed about the class culture with respect to this prescription. He was essentially ignorant of this unwritten rule. I don't blame that individual. I chose to not follow the rule and follow the class culture.

I would assign BLAME to someone who was NOT ignorant of the class unwritten rule and used the Class 4 rule as a weapon to get a win in the jury room in defiance of years of class history. I can't say he would be cheating, he is exercising the letter of the rule ... I would blame him for his unsportsmanlike behavior in getting a win this way.

Continuing from the list above, I read this argument as:
  1. I know I am breaking a rule.
  2. It is legitmate for someone to enforce the rule.
  3. Nevertheless, if one chooses to do so, It is not my behavior that needs to change, but his.
To justify your choice to knowingly break a rule and the law, you call others "ignorant", "unsportsmanlike", and "fools".

Quote
The word blame to me means that I assign some misplaced moral judgment on the individual and defer some of my responsibility to the individual filing this protest.
Precisely.

Quote
I am clear that I accept responsibility and am not shifting any of that to the protesting individual.
In that case, I applaud your sportsmanship. I have difficulty, however, reconciling this statement with your previous ones.

Quote
My statement about changing the class or change classes is simply a practical course of action when the culture is in doubt.

I would not choose to return to a club that chooses to have their PRO go out of the way to challenge the class culture on this rule.

I have an alternate suggestion. Instead of leaving classes and regattas where the rules are enforced, why not just follow the rules?

Sincerely,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John_C] #209703
04/28/10 09:11 AM
04/28/10 09:11 AM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by John_C
Off topic, but I just learned this recently after getting into a discussion with a college racing team person. The person that was ooching was not cheating by college rules, and most probably aren't informed that they have their own set of rules so they don't know any better.

You are correct. College racing class rules modify RRS 42 (Propulsion). You are also correct that college sailors trained to employ kinetics don't always know that those actions are not allowed under normal racing rules. I once saw a senior judge pull a competitor aside and read him the riot act about his kinetics infractions on the water. He was a very good college sailor (and later became a professional sailor) but did not realize that the very actions he was coached to perform were prohibited by the RRS.

Another senior judge once told me that the ISAF Rules Committee were so unhappy with the college sailing rules, that they considered adding rule 42 to the list of rules that cannot be changed.

For what it's worth (probably nothing), in the anecdote I related, the boat was sailing on a beat to windward in little to no wind (certainly not planing or surfing conditions), so even under college sailing rules, ooching was prohibited.

But, even that wasn't my point. I was trying to express that as competitors, we are self-policing. When referees and umpires are not present to enforce the rules, we must accept a higher standard of behavior and follow the rules without external compulsion.

If you want a role-model for sportsmanship, look at ultimate frisbee. The competitors pride themselves that they are entirely self-policed - even at the olympic level.

Regards,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209713
04/28/10 11:15 AM
04/28/10 11:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Quote
1. Many of my competitors regularly break this rule.
2. Never has anybody protested them for it.
3. Therefore, breaking this rule is acceptable and correct ethical behavior.


Actually,
1) All of the competitors...
2) .... Nor have they initiated a protest.

3) Acceptable and correct ethical behavior ???

This is YOUR judgment and then putting the words in my mouth or suggesting that I judge my actions against your standard.

Your presumption is that there is some judge and jury measuring "Acceptable Behavior" and evaluating the "Ethics and Ethical behavior" of the situation.

Who died and left you or anyone else in charge here?

I take the view that ethics and morals are generated by the appropriate community... in this instance... the class community has no ethical or moral dilemma with nullifying this rule and the class members are not measured and judged against YOUR arbitrary standard of proper and ethical.

Look... if the class could strike the prescription it probably would. Individuals can choose to carry a USCG vest and a type 4 to align with federal law and the US prescriptions but they can't hurl the moral and ethical charges at members of the class.

The sport is self policing.. IE... its driven from the bottom. This problem is driven by the inclusion of federal law into the USA version of the rules of the game from on high. It's exacerbated by your willingness to judge "proper behavior" and declare that the rank and file are "ethically challenged".

The solution is simply to leave the moral, behavioral ethical NON issues alone. In the rare instances where a protest bubbles up... match the evidence to the rule and apply the rules. Leave the judging on moral and ethical stuff to a higher non earthly power.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209716
04/28/10 11:50 AM
04/28/10 11:50 AM
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brucat Offline
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OK, let's back up a bit.

There are clear rules in place.

There are unwritten cultural practices that are also in place.

The only real problem comes up when there is a conflict of the two, and there are sailors willing to use that as a weapon.

I think we've all essentially agreed that we all sail in classes where we know what will get protested, and clearly what won't, regardless of what the rules say. In our classes, at typical regattas, for situations that are undesirable, it is much more common for the group to talk to an offending sailor rather than protest them. It is only when the infraction is viewed to be more damaging to the class' health, and the sailor was warned and does not comply, that such protests are typically lodged.

There are, however, events (and likely, classes) where protests over minutiae should be expected. As mentioned much earlier in the thread, this would be anything remotely resembling an important event, such as a ladder event, nationals or higher.

So, other than making safety rules not protestable by a boat, and ensuring that the event measurer, OA and PRO is onboard with what the class desires, there shouldn't be any real issues for 99.9% of our racing.

For the "important" events, suck it up as part of the game.

John, does THIS help?

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209719
04/28/10 12:12 PM
04/28/10 12:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Originally Posted by brucat
OK, let's back up a bit.

There are clear rules in place.

There are unwritten cultural practices that are also in place.

The only real problem comes up when there is a conflict of the two, and there are sailors willing to use that as a weapon.

I think we've all essentially agreed that we all sail in classes where we know what will get protested, and clearly what won't, regardless of what the rules say. In our classes, at typical regattas, for situations that are undesirable, it is much more common for the group to talk to an offending sailor rather than protest them. It is only when the infraction is viewed to be more damaging to the class' health, and the sailor was warned and does not comply, that such protests are typically lodged.

There are, however, events (and likely, classes) where protests over minutiae should be expected. As mentioned much earlier in the thread, this would be anything remotely resembling an important event, such as a ladder event, nationals or higher.

So, other than making safety rules not protestable by a boat, and ensuring that the event measurer, OA and PRO is onboard with what the class desires, there shouldn't be any real issues for 99.9% of our racing.

For the "important" events, suck it up as part of the game.

John, does THIS help?

Mike


Mike... Has this SI instruction been tested... or approved by USSA?

I am not sure but I don't think you can change this prescription with the SI instruction.

I do remember events using the SI rule but they seem to have disappeared from my events over the last few years.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209721
04/28/10 12:27 PM
04/28/10 12:27 PM
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brucat Offline
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Short answer: Yes.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209722
04/28/10 12:36 PM
04/28/10 12:36 PM
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Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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You can't change the prescription, but you can change who can file a protest under that rule and you can change the penalty imposed for breaking the rule.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mbounds] #209723
04/28/10 12:42 PM
04/28/10 12:42 PM
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brucat Offline
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Thanks Matt.

Mark, if it matters/helps, I've seen this in multiple events, for many different classes (Optis on up), with input from many different certified people from lots of different areas. The certifications include SJ, CRO, RRO, NRO, and IRO.

I'd say it's reasonably bulletproof.

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209724
04/28/10 12:43 PM
04/28/10 12:43 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
This is YOUR judgment and then putting the words in my mouth or suggesting that I judge my actions against your standard.

Your presumption is that there is some judge and jury measuring "Acceptable Behavior" and evaluating the "Ethics and Ethical behavior" of the situation.

If you object to your behavior being characterized as "acceptable and ethically correct" - well, ok. How would you describe it?

Quote
I take the view that ethics and morals are generated by the appropriate community... Individuals can choose to carry a USCG vest and a type 4 to align with federal law and the US prescriptions but they can't hurl the moral and ethical charges at members of the class.

I don't intend to "hurl moral and ethical charges" against you (or anybody). I'm simply trying to counter the argument that it's ok to break the rules. I am truly sorry that it seems to upset you.

My view of ethics is that they are personal codes. I have mine. You have yours. My personal code of ethics includes following the racing rules. Disregarding rules that I may not like becomes a slippery slope of rationalization. Therefore, I choose to abide by this rule (and the law).

Your personal code of ethics is different. So be it.

Really, I don't care what PFD you choose. I'm not going to write you a ticket. I have no desire to protest you. Apparently, neither does anybody else. So, carry on. However,
  1. You are breaking a rule (and the law),
  2. You know you are breaking a rule (and the law), and
  3. You intend to continue breaking a rule (and the law).
Just my own personal opinion, but I would not present that as the standard of "good sportsmanship". In all honesty, would you?

Regretfully,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209726
04/28/10 01:01 PM
04/28/10 01:01 PM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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so is a CE certified floatation aid "safe"?


(isn't this what the crux of the matter ~should~ be?).



Jake Kohl
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Jake] #209727
04/28/10 01:03 PM
04/28/10 01:03 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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btw - to rain on everyone's parade - the T500 PRO ruled that CE jackets are out. USCG only.

I think this whole thread just about makes me sick enough to convince me that competitive sailing isn't my bag.


Also note that life jacket "modifications" violate USCG "approval" so everyone who has modified their approved USCG is in violation. Expect a protest if you are in violation. I'll be checking... you know... for everyone's "safety" and to make sure that someone isn't trying to game the system by saving .00000123414 ounces or .124151143 square inches of windage.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ThunderMuffin] #209730
04/28/10 01:25 PM
04/28/10 01:25 PM
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california
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Should we change the thread title to Float baby Float?


Richard Vilvens
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http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Jake] #209738
04/28/10 03:54 PM
04/28/10 03:54 PM
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Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
so is a CE certified floatation aid "safe"?


(isn't this what the crux of the matter ~should~ be?).



Them Euro-folks is mity itty-bitty...uz (north)Amurrikians will sink like bricks grin


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tornado] #209791
04/29/10 09:03 AM
04/29/10 09:03 AM
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mikekrantz Offline
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Is it safe? You tell me - I can state that last year for the Tybee. I put on a CE pfd, along with harness, vhf radio, cell phone, gps, epirb, spare shackles/hardware, leatherman, rescue knife, camelback, powerbars, etc. and jumped in the pool at the Islander.

I floated with my head and shoulders well above the water level...

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mikekrantz] #209792
04/29/10 09:13 AM
04/29/10 09:13 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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I had a CE vest on with all of the above plus I probably have 75lbs on Mike and I had no problems swimming/floating during our capsize off of Cape Canaveral.

Oh I had a flare in my pocket too Mike.. neeya!

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mikekrantz] #209793
04/29/10 09:14 AM
04/29/10 09:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Todd_Sails  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Well then,

Mike settles it, it IS safe, for him with that gear at that time, in a fresh water pool (less bouyancy)

;-)

Now, about that rule thingy.....


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Todd_Sails] #209799
04/29/10 09:33 AM
04/29/10 09:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 69
L
Lost in Translation Offline
journeyman
Lost in Translation  Offline
journeyman
L

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 69
To me the CE life jackets are plenty safe, and the Tybee rules should be amended to allow them. Based on what I'm seeing in this thread, in Tybee I will now use a USCG life jacket instead of my CE one that is fully rigged with safety knife, hyrdo pack, etc.

John, do you think an amendment is likely?

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Lost in Translation] #209800
04/29/10 09:34 AM
04/29/10 09:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
NO - they wont amend them since they don't want to be held liable if the coasties get involved.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ThunderMuffin] #209802
04/29/10 09:45 AM
04/29/10 09:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
old hand
mikekrantz  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
oh yeah, I forgot about the smoke and aerial flares.

And yes Tad, your a$$ is way bigger than mine...

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Lost in Translation] #209804
04/29/10 10:02 AM
04/29/10 10:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Lost in Translation
To me the CE life jackets are plenty safe, and the Tybee rules should be amended to allow them. Based on what I'm seeing in this thread, in Tybee I will now use a USCG life jacket instead of my CE one that is fully rigged with safety knife, hyrdo pack, etc.

John, do you think an amendment is likely?


Check the front page of the Tybee site. It's been addressed.
http://www.tybee500.com/


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #209806
04/29/10 10:07 AM
04/29/10 10:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 69
L
Lost in Translation Offline
journeyman
Lost in Translation  Offline
journeyman
L

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 69
Thanks. No CE jackets are allowed.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Lost in Translation] #209823
04/29/10 12:16 PM
04/29/10 12:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Can't believe no one came up with this yet, but we just solved the problem. Wear whatever you want, jump in the pool and demonstrate that you will float overnight.

BTW, I would fully consider the Tybee to be one of those "important" events where technical protests can and may happen...

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209830
04/29/10 01:05 PM
04/29/10 01:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline
veteran
F-18 5150  Offline
veteran

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
I personally love my ZHIK harness and Life Jacket. But I would never wear the jacket at a points race because of the feer of bieng protested. Yes I have a throwable and a paddle. Alone with flares a whistle and signal mirror. In the bays or ocean I carry VHF and GPS for safety.

The RRS should be ammended to allow CE jackets but will that ever happen?


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: F-18 5150] #209831
04/29/10 01:10 PM
04/29/10 01:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
But aren't you allowed to wear one, as long as you have a USCG one within reach?

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tony_F18] #209832
04/29/10 01:29 PM
04/29/10 01:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline
veteran
F-18 5150  Offline
veteran

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
No the RRS for U.S. Sailing and Hobie say all competetors need to be wearing approved life saving devices.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209839
04/29/10 02:25 PM
04/29/10 02:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mike
I don't get this notion of " a serious or important regatta" requiring more attention to the technical rules.

I think you need one set of rules and standards .... period. Otherwise, this is a slippery slope which can only lead to to somebody feeling screwed. "Hey... I am not an insider... how was I to know that in THIS regatta that the blah blah rule would be enforced to the letter but not in that regatta.

The Hobie world has a comp tip requirement... they don't have tiers of regattas... Rather, they have the discretion to issue a waiver for up to two events to a sailor with an all metal stick (my area). The rules are clear. If the hobie sailors did not like the rule... they can change it... for the prescription problem where they can't change it.. ... class culture should control. Do you know of any hobie rules which have two tiers?

In the Tybee case, The Tybee class has moved the gear requirement down into the SI's... While there may be no rules difference, the practical effect is to make the requirement explicit for the race. More importantly, they make it clear that modifications to the PFD did not compromise the PFD prescription rule. Good for them.

As Tony observed...Sailors could have just stuffed one CG jacket into a hull and worn what they wanted. But it looks like they made a CG jacket part of the race.

I thought about the SI rule change some more.
I would not be thrilled with adding the no protest rule to the SI's. I think that this shifts responsibility (no matter how small) away from the sailors to the PRO's and regatta organizers. I never think this is a good idea. Therefore, in this catch 22 circumstance... an unwritten class standard of no protests demonstrates the proper judgment rather then the rules addition to the SI's.

My view is that if a class determined that a PRESCRIPTION rule of sailing should be nullfied with a no protest standard... you do not need a guide dog to see the class standard... Moreover, the class practice simply restricted your ability to protest on this equipment rule. ... if you want to comply with the prescription you could or easily adjust and turf the class IV before the first race.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209844
04/29/10 03:13 PM
04/29/10 03:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Calm down and go back to my prior post (#209716). I'm just saying you're more likely to be protested at a major regatta, because you're not as "protected" by your "cultural" disobedience, since you may not know all the players, and may not be able to know whether they will protest if you choose to ignore a rule.

In all cases, the rules are the same, and you theoretically stand an equal chance of being protested. Breaking a rule (especially the PFD rule after being part of this thread) is clearly a conscious choice.

In reality, some times certain rules are ignored by entire groups of people (as you've pointed out plenty of times in this thread), regardless of RRS, Rx, class rules, SIs, or anything else; and you may not get protested.

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209845
04/29/10 03:29 PM
04/29/10 03:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Got it.

What do you think about the shifting of responsibility concern, Granted it's probably a small shift.
Do you think the addition to he SIs is really warranted?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209853
04/29/10 04:28 PM
04/29/10 04:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Well, as I've said, generally speaking, I don't personally like SIs to change existing rules (and that comes from IROs).

Either way, I don't see this as a shift, because every time I've seen this SI used, it's not done to shift the responsibility, but rather, to avoid lots of "frivilous" protests. If there are real safety issues (such as, NO PFD being worn, kids not checking in ashore at the end of each day), the RC will protest and make sure the message gets across. I've really not witnessed "safety inspections" other than for distance races (NE 100).

Most of the high-end PROs that I know don't really worry about this stuff too much, because they feel that personal safety is handled by RRS 4.

The last thing any PRO wants to do is to affect the outcome of an event. If the sailors don't want to follow certain rules, and/or don't want to protest over certain rules, smart PROs ignore it. If they have a personal issue with the rules that are being broken, they decline the event in the future.

We're there to serve, not to dictate.

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #209870
04/29/10 08:58 PM
04/29/10 08:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
I am not trying to be cute, but, if you were wearing a PFD and they picked you up alive, I would guess that the PFD was effective regardless of who approved its use.


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: arbo06] #209873
04/29/10 09:58 PM
04/29/10 09:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 266
UK
Cheshirecatman Offline
enthusiast
Cheshirecatman  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 266
UK
Interesting thread this. I've caught parts of it but not all. Here in europe there is a CE design requirement for boats. There is an exemption for boats designed for racing. Could a similar exemption not be negotiated through US sailing? If the general requirement is to have one USCG PFD per person but crews don't like to wear them, wouldn't it be safer option in having more crews wearing PFD's because they were more suited to the racing environment?

Would it be desirable? and if so who would be prepared to lobby for it?

Cheshirecatman (comfy CE PFD wearer)

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209875
04/29/10 11:47 PM
04/29/10 11:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
Don_Atchley Offline
enthusiast
Don_Atchley  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
Here's yet another option...
I don't believe this one is certified by either regulatory agency. But it would be less likely to get you protested.
High Flotation Life Jacket


Hobie Tiger 2003
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