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#212665 - 06/05/10 04:45 AM Restating the F16 mission (goals)  
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Wouter Offline
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To all, both F16 members and non-members

As evidenced by the other threads, the same group of non-F16 sailing distractors has again performed their annual wrecking project. They always do it in the lead up to the summer as to maximize the negative effect. Each time they milk the same "misunderstandings" and "perceived controversies". As such I (as the class co-founder) feel it is wise to restate the F16 class mission as expressed when we started with this class back in 2001.

Back then, several of us were looking at cat designs that would allow us to maximize our time on the water and that would reflect the true state of boat construction. Several of us, like in this case myself, tried various products by well known catamaran builders and felt discouraged. I could personally not bring myself to pay double the purchase cost for a "modern design" that weighted more then my 1974 Prindle 16 and had a cut-down F18 mast that was so stiff that its rig felt totally unresponsive to me. Thanks to the efforts of Jim Boyer in the USA we saw an example of how things could be different. We saw how the Taipan 4.9 suffered none of these drawbacks and also was the better of all its "modern" competition. Yet, its one-design class rules didn't really make it suitable to be succesfully introduced into Europe and the USA. The rig was in need of an update (square-tops) and a spinnaker was vital to keep up with the rapidly developping F18 fleet and the profound change this caused in the catamaran scene. Additionally, the initial mathematical models predicted that small modifications could make the Taipan faster still and bring it to equivalence with the F18's. The OD Taipan class didn't see any reason to accomodate these modifications and as such the decision was taken to start a-new and create the Formula 16 class. This decision also allowed other makes of the first hour like the Stealths and Bimares to be included. That is the F16 history in a nuttshell.

While creating this new F16 class we also devised a new way of looking at the catamaran scene. We felt that strict OD class (especially Single Manufactorer OD) were basically a losing policy in a catamaran scene that was to be dominated by formula rule sets. We also envisioned that a formula rule set allows builders and suppliers to better generate income from their products. Therefore limited development, or slowed-down development, was seen as beneficial rather then a drawback. If such development can be slowed-down to a pace where an arms-race was unlikely to develop then all parties would be served best. Customers getting true up to date designs and quality components and the suppliers generating stable revenue from a scene that has a stable demand for new products and components. Therefore anybody decrying development should not in any way be interested in the F16 class. That was a concious decision by the class founders, we figured that more then enough sailors who are interested in slow development are to be found to support this class anyway. For the others, there are enough (dying) SMOD classes ready to welcome them with open arms.

Secondly, the founders figured that deriving fun and enjoyment from sailing F16's was most important of all. Not sailing old junk is important in this respect but not exclusively so. We considered it to be bad sportmanship to be overcritical of crew make-up or suboptimal designs. Therefore we always welcomed different crewmake-up in a single start as well as suboptimal designs. The main idea was to have larger fleets and more enjoyment while persueing our hobby then when needlessly creating multiple small disjointed fleets. It was our luck that we discovered that the same basic F16 design could be made to perform about the same with a 2-up crew as with a 1-up crew. Removing the jib and getting a mainsail cut specifically for 1-up sailing would negate much of the difference between both makes which is also reflected in the handicap numbers that are almost identical. Of course, we expected somee people to object to this (often because their guts claim to be more knowlegdeable then long running handicap systems and design models), but that is of no real importance. In the F16 class we chose "fun-while-persueing-our-sailing-hobby" over "hard-core-cut-throat-racing". From the very beginning we envisioned the F16 class as being an introduction class to catamaran racing, preferably leading up to to more hard-core racing as supported by the racing-oriented F18 and A-cat fleets. So again, if anybody has a personal problem with 1-up F16's and 2-up F16's sharing a start and score listing then he or she knows what to do; buy a F18 or A-cat and stop souring the fun for the more relaxed F16 sailors who mainly attend the F16 events for fun, to improve themselves and a have a serious giggle on the race course. It is the vision of the F16 class that such an open environment is the best environment to attract youths to catamaran sailing/racing and thus grow the scene with new blood. Additionally, the F16 class was always envisioned to work in conjunction with other classes like the F18's, A-cats, Tornado's and some low cost youth class like the Hobie dragoon, nacra 500's, Hobie 16's or SL16's. It was never the intent for the F16's to "take the scene" or "dominate the scene". We just wanted to fill in a gap that missing in the larger catamaran scene and we did. Thus provide a viable path between the true youth classes and the true high level racing classes as this gap was simply to big to bridge. Of course the other benefit was the creation of a class which products are alot of fun to sail and has a claim to exitance in that way too.

Now none of this prevents any sub group of F16 sailors to organise serious hard-core race events for themselves but it does exclude this group from dominating the F16 class as a whole. In the end, the F16 class is intended as a versatile class for sailors who are oriented towards recreational racing and fun sailing. For parents with kids and adults who may often may find themselves switching between 2-up and 1-up sailing and don't have the resources to buy both a F18 and an A-cat. In the end the F16's will always be a compromise between these two extremes, although you wouldn't say that from the proven performance of the F16's. In the end were are not a full-blown hardcore racing class with limits on every detail like the F18's nor a full-blown development class like the A-cats. The F16 class rules reflect this situation very well.

It is to each interested party to decide whether this suits him or her or not. If it doesn't then clear alternatives are available to them.


With kind regards,

Wouter


P.s. More considerations can covered but won't be at this time.


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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#212671 - 06/05/10 05:10 AM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Wouter]  
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"Thanks to the efforts of Jim Boyer in the USA we saw an example of how things could be different"

Get it right.. Jim is an Aussie Dog...err Aussie Legend!


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
#212675 - 06/05/10 06:10 AM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Dazz]  
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Wouter Knows Jim is from Oz, he was referring to the first time there was a real "F16 Class" that showed up for a regatta (2001?). I beileive that was at Lake Hartwell, the Spring Fever Regatta, and THAT was in the USA...and I believe he's also refering to Jim's time spent in the USA promoting the F16 class here at that time.

Dazz, you know there is an F18 forum here too, right? Why do you spend so much time here if you sail a Capricorn??


Blade F16
#777
#212677 - 06/05/10 06:26 AM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Timbo]  
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Timbo I have no idea, Addicted to controversy i guess? I keep saying to myslef stop and yet here we go again.

While im here, I managed to get an audience with Jim Boyer for an rainy afternoon here in Tas, he was on holidays and stopped in to watch us sailing.

He had been experimenting with the kite on the taipan 4.9 and was of the opinion it was just a lot of extra time rigging, expense and ropes on the boat fpr very little gain. At the time he had been building the capricorn for about 12 months i guess, he said it wasnt a bad boat despite the kite.

So i can assure you Jim was anti f16, and very pro a-class and taipan 4.9 in sloop/cat formats.

from our conversation he came across as a really nice guy, some one you would be very happy to work or play with.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
#212678 - 06/05/10 06:49 AM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Dazz]  
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Well Wouter can fill you in on the details of Jim's trip to the USA, or Jim himself since you see more of him than Wouter most likely, but I remember when the Taipan 4.9 and 5.7(?) was being introduced to the USA some 10 or more years ago. I was at the time on a Nacra 5.5 and looking for a new ride. A friend of mine down here in Florida got a new Taipan 4.9 and I got to see it up close, very nice boat! I wanted one, more-so when I heard they were racing them both 1 up and 2 up, as my kids were young (8-12), we live on a lake, and I thought it would be a great platform to get them into sailing. The only thing holding me back from buying one at the time was the cost. Add shipping from Oz.

Around that same time, Bimare was just coming out with their new Jav 2 F18HT. There were quite a few to be imported by the container-full at a very good price. (This was all Pre-Euro days, the exchange rate to the Lira was much better than the Oz bucks)

I got to see the Jav 2 up close at the Tradewinds regatta, it was very light air that year, Randy Smyth and WF Oliver were on it and they stomped everyone, even the I20's. I got to sail it with WF when the regatta was over and the price was right with the next container coming, so I got one of those instead of the Taipan.

As it worked out, the F18HT class never really caught on here in the States, which was unfortunate because I think they are great boats, but not long after that class showed up, so did the F18's, and more crews jumped to the I20's or F18's. Eventually the HT class shrank and the F18/I20's grew. I ended up trading my Jav 2 for a used I20, a boat I dearly loved, and sailed it alone here on my lake many times, but I couldn't race unless I had crew.

The only "problem" for me was, my kids were not very reliable crew. And they had their own sporting events (soccer, baseball, baskettball, horse shows, etc. etc.) so I missed a lot of regattas in those years, I ended up selling the I20 after 3 years and got out of racing for several years, only crewing for friends on their I20's when needed.

Enter Matt McDonald and the Blade! Matt started building Blades and lives about 2 hours drive north east of me. I had read about it here on Catsailor but not seen one up close until I drove up to his shop and went for a ride with him. I was hooked.

The fact that I don't need to find a crew to race was the real selling point. And the light weight, as I'd already had one back surgery for a ruptured disc.

My wife swears that was due to hauling the I20 up my beach alone, but I know for a fact it was from lifting all those hay bales into and out of the horse trailer!

What pissses me off is sailors from other classes, with no knowledge of the history of the F16 class, or it's rules, and no time or money invested in the F16 class, with no meaningful input other than to say, "Change your rules then...maybe...I'll buy one."

Well, sorry, you'll have to write the check first, then show up at the regattas, then we'll listen to your "Valuable Input".



Blade F16
#777
#212686 - 06/05/10 08:20 AM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Timbo]  
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Aido Offline
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Brisveagas
Wouter

The mission of the F16 class should be to get as many boats on the water as possible.

God Damn it Wouter you cant even be bothered to get your own boat on the water for the NS regatta. Shame on you. Hans Klok is just as bad. Whats wrong with you guys?

The best thing you can do for the class is show up to some regattas.


Aido
Viper 288
#212689 - 06/05/10 09:37 AM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Dazz]  
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Wouter Offline
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Dazz,

What are you doing ?

You are an F18 sailor that apparently can only make negative comments on this F16 forum.

Why don't you just "move on" ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#212690 - 06/05/10 09:42 AM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Timbo]  
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Wouter Offline
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Timbo,

Quote

Well Wouter can fill you in on the details of Jim's trip to the USA,



I can, but I won't.

I feel Dazz is not in the least bit interested in what truly expired, only in dragging this forum and class through the mud as much as possible.

Fact of the matter is that AHPC produced and sold Taipan F16's which were Taipan 4.9's that were modified to F16 specs at the factory. Jim's personal believes are his own, especially since he has left the company AHPC.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/05/10 09:45 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#212691 - 06/05/10 09:59 AM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Aido]  
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Aido,

Quote

God Damn it Wouter you cant even be bothered to get your own boat on the water for the NS regatta. Shame on you. Hans Klok is just as bad. Whats wrong with you guys?



Okay, who has spit in your cornflakes this morning ?

I was a regular participant in the F16 events all the way to the GC of 2007 after which I did announce that I would be largely off the air for a year of two as I would start on a research project involving large offshore windturbines. I'm sorry, but sailing is a hobby for me and I do have a life in other area's as well, not mention a job that pays the bills but is unrelated to sailing.

I think it is pretty low of you to throw this back at me as if I intentionally was trying to stuff the class. Especially since I have spend 6 whole years of my spare time creating this class and promoting it.

Right now I'm working behind the scenes to get everybody together again here in Northwest Europe.

So I'm sorry, you've got the wrong end of the stick and you are not really helping, are you ?

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/05/10 10:02 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#212692 - 06/05/10 10:01 AM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Wouter]  
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Wouter,

Jim was never employed by AHPC, he had his company supplying equipment to AHPC. there for he never left AHPC.

try to get something right...

AHPC has every right to supply equipment in any flavor they like, no one has ever disputed that.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
#212712 - 06/05/10 07:01 PM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Dazz]  
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Vic, Australia
I cannot resist.... Let's get things correct!!!

Jim Boyer was one of the 2 original directors of AHPC. (Greg Goodall being the second)....

Secondly - The Taipan 4.9 was launched in Easter 1988 WITH A SPINNAKER!!! Yeah... REALLY!!!

Jim and Greg could not get it right, so they screwed up the spinnaker and threw it in the trailer.... There it stayed for some years.... went moldy and eventually was thrown out. They did not bother revisiting it as at that time, the Taipan 4.9 without a spinnaker was heaps of fun and beat everything, including many 18ft boats.

By the time Jim visited USA, other people had worked out how to get the spinnaker to work on cats. Jim & Greg realizing that the Taipan design was showing it's age, attempted to bring it into the 21st century by adding a kite. At this time, the Taipan Assoc of Australia was very strong, and there were very mixed feelings regarding this. Even though many Taipans were modified to carry the kite, it did not take long for Greg and Jim to realize that the Taipan 4.9 rig and hull were not the ideal design for a spinnaker carrying catamaran.... Hence the designing of the Viper had commenced!!

Wouter - It is a amazing that you thought that the Taipan was a modern design when it was already a 15 year old design.... when Greg & Jim were already talking of the next generation!

Last edited by HJS; 06/05/10 07:07 PM.
#212713 - 06/05/10 07:07 PM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Dazz]  
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Nice little write up Wouter.

The F16 class does have a lot going for it but is also exposed a little. And Timbo, FYI I have sailed F16s and sailed in an unofficial F16 AUS Nationals in early 2000s. Taipan FC also did likewise, owned an F16 and sailed it very often in F16 form. The F16 concept is something that is very appealing to me, and I am currently in the market for a new boat. Can the F16 class sell itself to me?

Perhaps the F16 class should look beyond their class as just a class, but more of a business because that is how the manufactures look at it. Do a SWOT analyses on the class to see where it really lies in the market place.

I have listed a few below, make your own list and be brutally honest with yourself.

STRENGHTS
Light weight
High Performance
Can be sailed one up or two up with reasonable close performance

WEAKNESSES
Current rule set does allow for someone to build a very expensive boat from exotic materials that would be quicker than current F16s on the market.

Fleets are very small and in isolated pockets. Boats are predominantly manufactured either by home builders or small local manufactures with the exception of AHPC. Fleets are generally made up of the local manufacturer’s product.

OPORTUNITIES
Work with the larger volume manufactures to create a truly international class. Lean on them for their experience in manufacturing, class structure, marketing and promotion to build the fleet into a class that could rival any International class.

THREATS
Volume manufactures. If AHPC can work with Nacra and Hobie to produce and promote a 125kg equivalent to the F16, lets sat they MF16 (manufacturers F16), then you may well see the MF16 become the class that will reach International status, leaving the F16 class to remain a very small isolated class like the F18HT.


#212714 - 06/05/10 07:13 PM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: HJS]  
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Originally Posted by HJS
I cannot resist.... Let's get things correct!!!

Jim Boyer was one of the 2 original directors of AHPC. (Greg Goodall being the second)....

Secondly - The Taipan 4.9 was launched in Easter 1988 WITH A SPINNAKER!!! Yeah... REALLY!!!

Jim and Greg could not get it right, so they screwed up the spinnaker and threw it in the trailer.... There it stayed for some years.... went moldy and eventually was thrown out. They did not bother revisiting it as at that time, the Taipan 4.9 without a spinnaker was heaps of fun and beat everything, including many 18ft boats.

By the time Jim visited USA, other people had worked out how to get the spinnaker to work on cats. Jim & Greg realizing that the Taipan design was showing it's age, attempted to bring it into the 21st century by adding a kite. At this time, the Taipan Assoc of Australia was very strong, and there were very mixed feelings regarding this. Even though many Taipans were modified to carry the kite, it did not take long for Greg and Jim to realize that the Taipan 4.9 rig and hull were not the ideal design for a spinnaker carrying catamaran.... Hence the designing of the Viper had commenced!!

Wouter - It is a amazing that you thought that the Taipan was a modern design when it was already a 15 year old design.... when Greg & Jim were already talking of the next generation!


Spot on.

Jim was the owner of Boyer Fibrecraft
Greg was the owner of Goodall Yacht Sails

I do not know personaly, but I beleive Jim moved on because building boats to his high standard was just becoming too expensive and not economically viable in Asutralia and the future was to sadly move production off shore like many other boat builders (and gerneral manufactures) have done in the past.


#212718 - 06/05/10 08:13 PM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: HJS]  
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Originally Posted by HJS
I cannot resist.... Let's get things correct!!!

Jim Boyer was one of the 2 original directors of AHPC. (Greg Goodall being the second)....



I will stand corrected!

At this year's taipan AGM the spinnaker topic came up yet again, and was howled down by the room yet again, if nothing else it was quite amusing!


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
#212720 - 06/05/10 08:38 PM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: HJS]  
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Spinnakers on beach cats in 1988 were pretty "radical"- I watched my old video of the 1988 (1989?) Worrell 1000 and it is very interesting. Most of the spinnakers were flown off a bridle line between the bows but there was a Hobie 18 with what looks like a Flying Scot spinnaker or some such flown off a pole!
Greg could (and I wish would!) jump in here and provide his perspective but last I talked to him he admitted the spinnakers keep getting flatter and faster.
When we first proposed the class Greg wanted us to use a 21 sqm. spi (same area as an F18) since the European handicap "hit" was the same for a spinnaker up to that size and at that time the thinking was bigger was better. I own one of those original 21 sqm spis. and another original 17 sqm spi which is what we decided to go with since the 21 proved slower (it's now on my Freedom 21 mono!!). That is back in the "bag" days when the spis were launched out of a bag on the tramp- the Inter 20 had the infamous "toilet seat" snuffer at the end of the pole but that really cost you upwind! Then the T guys developed the midpole snuffer so I coughed up a lotta moola and got one of the original Guck CF snuffers. All these developments helped make the spi more manageable and faster around the (short) course- a tramp bag is still faster in distance races (check all the old Worrells) since it's lighter, simpler, more foolproof and less windage/drag.
Jim didn't like the spi due to the complexity and cost- and I still remember when I first saw him race the 4.9 sloop with his 14 y.o. daughter in Ohio against the "latest and greatest" Inter 20 with spinnaker and he beat the Inter 20 Boat for Boat around the course!! This without a spi on the Taipan just the jib and going wild on the downwind in big wind and waves! I don't want to embarrass anybody but the Inter 20 sailor was a well known NACRA sailor.
Also, at that time the Taipan was doing very well in Aus as an OD one up and two up boat so adding an "F16 class" was not felt to be an obvious good thing there. Thing was, at the time we were developing and conceiving this formula class a "spinnaker" on a cat was the "hot ticket"- any new class without one was deemed "old" and we definitely felt it was the future so we included it. Rick was a staunch Hooter fan then and put a Hooter on his 4.9 but Jim felt the 4.9 could not handle the high forestay loads so basically the use of a Hooter on a 4.9 at that time nullified your warranty, but Rick could get the boat to go with a Hooter! The Hooter being flatter than the spis of that time was probably ahead of it's time and more similar to the "newer" spi shapes.
We met a lot of resistance and criticism in the early stages here in the US as the F18HT had also just been "introduced" into the US and was heavily marketed here as the "next great thing" with many rock stars being compensated/convinced to be involved in that class. They felt their "concept" of a high performance, light, 18 footer with main and spi was much superior to our smaller, slower, less "techy" cats. Our first F16 Nationals was held in conjunction with their Nationals at Rick's place and they laughed at us then because we had so few participants compared to them. Of course all our boats "survived" the regatta except the one that was damaged by one of the F18HT's while they had multiple breakage problems. I think it's a testament to the veracity of our concept that F16's now greatly outnumber F18HT's here in the US and our numbers seem to be growing. I agree with Wouter we are sort of an interim fleet between the more all out racing two up F18's and the one up "A" cats- and that's FINE! That's our "niche" as we envisioned it. How the class will develop and grow in the next ten years is anybody's guess but from a handful of Taipans in the US, a few Stealths in Europe and some renegade Taipans in Oz the current state of the Class and it's growth would seem to indicate we are and have been doing something right.
I would argue that the Viper is a great sloop F16 and probably optimized as such and I suspect someone may come along (if Stealth has not already?) and someday produce an optimized uni F16- since the loads are lighter, like an "A" cat, everything can be downsized and rearranged- the hulls could be smaller volume with less windage, sails can be flatter, shrouds etc. can be smaller and lighter, etc. It may be that what it really takes for sloops and unis to be nearly identical in performance around a course is a lighter, "smaller" uni F16 with main and spi and a heavier, larger, more robust sloop F16. This is not what we as the originators had in mind, intending the boat to be able to do "double duty" as Timbo stated- I got tired of going to regattas with my NACRA 5.0 and my young sons and wife, all of whom told me at one time they would race with me only to get there and find it was too hot, too cold, too windy, not enough wind and boring, etc.!! I had to dredge up crew or try to sail to a crazy rating on that boat by myself! The market will ultimately determine where our class goes directly or indirectly. I do not really mind that H**** or N**** do not want to "play" in our sand box as I have had enough of both of these manufacturers try to take complete control over "their" classes- telling you to buy cr*p sails, changing the rules/equipment when it suits them, etc. If that's what they have to do to stay in business then that's fine, but as a "customer" I don't like that policy personally but that's their choice. We, like the "A" and F18 classes, are sailor, not manufacturer, controlled. Of course the real point of all these discussions is that without "product" (ie new boats) we will become just another Dead Boat Society. But you have to remember- When the three of us came up the concept and started this class there was not a SINGLE "optimized" F16! WE created an obviously viable concept and a demand and THEN manufacturers, seeing an opportunity, stepped up and started making boats (THANK YOU STEALTH! I believe they were the first to actually do so-). The sailors then "sold" the boats and the class by sailing them and having fun both one and two up!
Wouter, Phill and I have devoted countless hours/dollars/effort to the class in the beginning- we were all a lot younger then- and it's been great to see other people take over the reins and keep this thing going!
I agree with what someone said- the best thing you can do to support the class is get out there and show the World how much fun sailing an F16 is, regardless of whether it's the stiffest, fastest, most expensive, etc. and whether you are just having fun or racing!

Kirt


Kirt
Taipan 4.9 USA 159, Flyer USA 185
Will sail for food...
#212722 - 06/05/10 08:43 PM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: HJS]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Annapolis, MD
HJS

Your American story needs some updateing

The Taipan 4.9 showed up with Jim Boyer and his daughter and Peter Coogan sailing a sloop 4.9 and a uni 4.9 at Cambridge. Later, Lars Guck was the importer and sailing a sloop 4.9 making quite an impression in the Steeple chase with his wife.

The 4.9 was a modern design irrespective of its birth day ...(or well ahead of it's time compared to the US from nacra and prindle and hobie ) (Shheesh... any chance to bash Wouter for no reason) In the US... Jim was the face of AHPC and nobody cared much about the partnership arangment between the two principals. They had an outstanding rep.

Spinakers were becoming the rage... the market for the sloop 4.9 just did not develop in the US.

Glenn Asby came over and raced the 5.7 with chute... made quite an impression... Lars Guck and PJ Shafer raced a C100 on a 5.7 and kicked butt...(only smart ones to tie down between two trees and survive a huge microburst.... BUT... this is america... bigger is obviously better.... We had done the 19 foot boats... WE DEMANDED 20's.... ergo the nacra 6.0 and then the Nacra 20.... Hell.. we wanted NOTHING to do with the F18.... it took YEARS for that to get a start.

NEXT YEAR.. maybe two..... Jim Returned for another marketing campaign and they started playing with my Bim Spin on his 4.9 in Michigan with me... (road trip,,, grin) .... He got some interest in the spin again ..YES he was skeptical about the market. He really thought the sloop 4.9 filled the niche perfectly. At any rate... going with the US market Flow... I believe he returned home and then took the actions you relate.

As a one up F16... the 4.9 is a pretty nice little package.

The F16 guys were oportunistic and leveraged the 4.9 with a spin as an F16... High Profile critics... (Remember Sam Evans) were quite offended at this leveraging... as you seem to be as well.... Jim Boyer did not seem to care.

The mere fact that an Aussie 4.9 sailor brought up the spin for the 4.9 class this year... (unless you guys think Wouter flew down there to pretend he was aussie and lobby the class) speaks to the natural fit of the 4.9 with spin into the F16 class.

just sayin


crac.sailregattas.com
#212723 - 06/05/10 08:43 PM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Dazz]  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Seeker Offline
addict
Seeker  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
"Perhaps the F16 class should look beyond their class as just a class, but more of a business because that is how the manufactures look at it."

The class was started by sailors not manufactures. If manufactures had been building what the sailors really wanted, the F16 class would never have been created. Catamaran manufactures have to abide by the same rules any other business must adhere to...that are they are there to fulfill a need, or solve a problem....for the buyer...if they do that, people will pay for their solution...if not, people will find someone who will...or they will create their own solution...like the F16 class.

#212724 - 06/05/10 08:54 PM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: Seeker]  
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
OK, bad choice of words.

Forget about the manufacture

""Perhaps the F16 class should look beyond their class as just a class, but more of a business."

Now re read the above and think about your analysis on the class. Don't think I hate the F16 class and am trying to damage it. I would love to see it develop into a class that would rival the F18 class.


#212725 - 06/05/10 09:12 PM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: HJS]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 170
ACE11 Offline
member
ACE11  Offline
member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 170
Brisvegas
Hi HJS

I can't remember whether it was Jim or Greg who told me that the Taipan was born from an old MKIII Boyer A mold which was cut 2 feet shorter and had a wedge put in the keel to make it progressively fatter towards the keel. Or is that just urban myth. Perhaps you could confirm? It also has a lot of influence from Mosquitos which is not surprising. Either way it's a pretty old design. Still a fine boat though in sloop or cat rig but seems outdated for today's assymmetric flat kites sailing hot angles.

BTW - thanks for the photo of my boat from the 1982 Waranga Basin A nationals - still got it and never got around to thanking you.

Cheers
JD

#212726 - 06/05/10 10:05 PM Re: Restating the F16 mission (goals) [Re: ACE11]  
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 53
Arsailor Offline
journeyman
Arsailor  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 53
Arkansas, USA
I was told the 4.9 was meant to be an upgrade to the Mosquito using the latest (at the time- I believe MkIII? I have one of their "A" brochures and the 4.9/5.7 brochure around here somewhere!) "A" technology-

Kirt


Kirt
Taipan 4.9 USA 159, Flyer USA 185
Will sail for food...
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