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Kirt (T4..9) Races Mark (BIM 16) at cram regatta #2141
08/30/01 07:43 AM
08/30/01 07:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
source : http://www.websitemagic.com/cram/Muskrslts.htm
<br>
<br>Kirt (T4..9) Races Mark (BIM 16) at Cram regatta, tell us more Kirt !
<br>
<br>Looked like a close race between the two 1-up designs :
<br>
<br>(Lindahl was on a 18 sq.)
<br>
<br>Mark Schneider : 1 : 1 ; 1 ; 3 ; 1 ; DNF
<br>Kirt Simmons : 2 ; 2 ; DNS ; 1 ; 2 ; DNS
<br>Jon lindahl : 3 ; 3 ; DNS ; 2 ; 3 ; DNF
<br>
<br>Where these results obtained using the skewed PN handicap numbers or did you race first in wins ?
<br>
<br>Did you do kites ? How would you compare the Bi 16 to the Taipan 1-up ?
<br>
<br>To bad the David and goliath Cup only starts in a month other wise you would have the first to score points Kirt !!!
<br>
<br>Wouter
<br> <br><br>

Attached Files
2114- (72 downloads)

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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Re: Kirt (T4..9) Races Mark (BIM 16) at cram regatta [Re: Wouter] #2142
08/30/01 01:36 PM
08/30/01 01:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 344
Arkansas, USA
Kirt Offline
enthusiast
Kirt  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 344
Arkansas, USA
Wouter-
<br>First off, let me say that I did NOT sail my boat to it's potential at all up there! Reasons- (not excuses)- I have only been able to race my boat once so far this summer, so I'm very "rusty" on it; I'm not used to sailing it solo in 20mph+ and waves of 4-6 feet (We don't ever get them that large on OUR lakes and I haven't sailed offshore in a long time! I even went off the boat over the forward beam on one downwind leg but managed to pull myself back aboard the boat over the rear beam, but not before going well below the layline!).
<br>My "best" race was the third one on Saturday when the wind had laid down to @ 6-8mph (although the waves were still large) and I seemed to easily be able to stay ahead of Mark both upwind and downwind (Despite having gone overboard!). Both Mark, I and Jon (Lindahl on the 18 sq.) as well as a few of the other unis unfortunately went right on the first beat and the left was the side to be on so we didn't do well against the rest of the fleet for that reason. In the other races Mark was sailing better than me (plus, of course he had the "slower" PN number despite the spi- I sailed strictly uni, no spi and the spi boats all made out on me tremendously in the downwind legs- The large waves made one tack great as I was able to easily surf and keep the boat driving but on the other tack it was very hard w/ just main to keep the boat "in the groove" due to the countering seas. I also did not feel comfortable, due to my lack of practice in those conditions, going "Wild" and so kept it "mild") so he would have beaten me on similar boats.
<br>Mark is a Tornado sailor and very good, although it WAS his first time on the BIM. He himself sailed Jim (Boyer's) 4.9 while there and he personally told me he liked the Taipan better.
<br>My observations (obviously partial but I'm trying to be impartial here)- The BIM seemed to go pretty well upwind in the higher breezes (Mark commented he was pumping the mainsheet through the waves and working hard at it) and downwind well with the chute, however when the breeze lightened up some but it was still "lumpy" the BIM lacked the power (according to Mark) to get through the waves well upwind or downwind (and this was when the Taipan excelled). We only had a few reaching legs but again this seemed to be legs when the Taipan (and I) were able to make up time on all the other unis in the fleet. Jon (on the 18 sq.) had not sailed in 10 years so he was "rustier" than me and had Dennis Palin been there on his square I'm sure it would have been different as it was "square conditions"- big wind and waves with gusts- from my experiences. The Inter and Uni sailors there are good sailors and have the advantage of sailing each other constantly so they have been able to develop their boats/rigs/sailing style very well. Almost all their Unis (Nacra 5.5) are carbon equipped. I would feel quite comfortable racing them "heads up" on my Taipan either main only (vs the 5.5 Unis) or w/ gennaker (vs the Inters) if I lived there as I think the boats are at least comparable under those conditions if sailed comparably.
<br>The scores are a little wrong in that I should have gotten a "DNF" in the fourth race, not having gotten the course at the start and figuring I would just "follow" people I got very confused, ended up ahead of boats I "thought" I was behind and in the middle of the Inter 20's (who WERE going many laps around!), and went an extra "lap" around and then started another "lap" around before figuring out I was the only uni still out on the water (at that point I was basically sailing with the Inters and 6.0's)! The boats I thought I was "following" around the course again were just going to the beach (which I did at that point and notified the RC). I was mad at myself for not having gotten the course (crews ARE good for some things!) since I was doing fairly well in that race. Unfortunately they did not let Jim Boyer and the other 2 Taipan sloops race with the "big" boats as I think Jim would have done quite well (Maybe they thought so too?)-
<br>See if you can't get Mark to post his impressions of the boat/race also- He sailed better and deserved to win, and would have regardless if we had swapped boats- However, there is NO way I would trade my Taipan for the BIM- I personally like it much better and think it has more potential (but I think they are quite close as is IF both have chutes, not the big difference Portsmouth has assigned).
<br>I was disappointed there were no "A"'s that showed up to square off against the Unis and Inters.
<br>
<br>Kirt<br><br>Kirt Simmons
<br>Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48


Kirt Simmons Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48
Re: Kirt (T4..9) Races Mark (BIM 16) at cram regatta [Re: Kirt] #2143
08/31/01 06:11 AM
08/31/01 06:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
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phill Offline

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phill  Offline

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Kirt,
<br>You should be ashamed of yourself.
<br>
<br>"I have only been able to race my boat once so far this summer"
<br>I remember something an old chap once told me and everytime there is an excuse not to sail it comes to mind., "One you miss out on is one you never get".
<br>
<br>Thankyou very much for the report.
<br>
<br>The conditions you described, I get to sail in only once or twice a year and while it's a lot of fun its quite different from sailing on a lake.
<br>Thanks again,
<br>Phill
<br>PS:- Everyone in the David and Goliath Cup should give a report like yours.<br><br>

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I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Speaking of the cup. POLL on my P16 + gen. [Re: phill] #2144
08/31/01 06:20 AM
08/31/01 06:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
I can't compete for my F16HP isn't ready to sail just yet.
<br>
<br>I do have a Prindle 16 and a Prindle 18 + gen.
<br>
<br>Does the rest allow me to race :
<br>
<br>-1- My P18 +gen (rating 109) when I accept the rating hit when race only on elapsed time with the named class which have a rating of 103 or lower.
<br>
<br>-2- My P16 fitted with the P18 genaker giving it a rating of 116 with respect to 103 or lower for the prey classes.
<br>
<br>-3- Not a all till my F16HP is ready.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>Wouter
<br><br><br>

Attached Files
2163- (71 downloads)

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Mark's impressions [Re: Kirt] #2145
08/31/01 09:45 AM
08/31/01 09:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
**** the rudder upwards.
<br>
<br>I personally liked the taipan positive lock on the tiller arms.
<br>
<br>I sailed Jim Boyer's Taipan as a Uni rig and with the snuffer /chute (we just had to put it on the Taipan) I sailed this boat for about 40 minutes total.
<br>
<br>The Bim has much more rocker then the Taipan and I think it tacks a little quicker.
<br>
<br>The Bim because of the rocker will hobby horse when the breeze lightens up. There is no way to stop this action. I think the very tall rig (for a 16 foot boat contributes to the hobby horsing)
<br>
<br>The Bim has a flatter underwater profile and the hulls resonate when you slap the waves going up wind. (This takes some getting used to.. The boat feels solid... the hulls are not flexing. The Taipan seems like a more solid platform.
<br>
<br>I don't think the Bim mast would hold another crew member on a trapeze. All in all: I thought the Taipan would be a more durable and flexible boat. You could sail both boats as Uni's.. The Taipan could sail as a sloop rigged boat. The snuffer with chute and main was very nice on the taipan . The boat seemed to track well in this configuration. Jim and Lisa sailed the boat with Main Jib and chute. I know the deck was busy (Lisa was not thrilled with all the extra line) but I could easily do a distance race in this configuration.
<br>
<br>Racing
<br>I missed racing the first day. I was sailing with the fleet though in light air as a unirig only. Wind was 4 to 6 knots 1 to 2 foot swells. My impression was that the boat was equal to the 5.5 and I17's. The 18 square was going deeper then I could though.
<br>
<br>Saturday the wind's built from 7 to about 12 knots. in the morning. My starts were OK. I found that the boat had similar or slightly better speed upwind then did the 5.5's and I 17 R's. Downwind... I had a huge learning curve to climb. I was rolled several times by I 17's who could keep the boat hooked up. I don't want to talk about mark roundings other then to say.. thank god I got in and out of them. The single handed fleet in Michigan is very smooth. As the breeze built, I think the A cat rig was much faster up wind. I could climb higher and maintain speed. In the windiest race, the one I DSQ'd I was first to A mark (despite having to bear off around a capsized H16) I footed off through the lee of a 5.5 U and an I17R and then was able to climb back up to them.
<br>
<br>Down wind... I started to hold my own. I did not pass anyone but at least I stopped getting rolled by the I17 R's. I was not able to fly a hull on the wire with the Bim chute. I don't know if that is fast or not.
<br>
<br>I think the boat is slightly faster up wind then the uni's and I17's and probably the same speed down wind as the I17's. I was usually chasing one I 17 around the course. At least in one race the 5.5 uni's were first to finish. In light air... with big lumpy seas, I had a hard time making the boat go. I felt that I need more power out of the main ( or less weight to move around) I also went the wrong way and made several other major errors in that race.
<br>
<br>The last race was a blast. The winds were 18 with gusts to 20 and 4 to 6 foot rollers. Having gotten to A mark first. I debated the sanity of pulling the chute. Eventually the No Guts no Glory credo won out. and I pulled the chute. I had some problems and wound up snuffing and rehoisting the sail. Looking backwards, I could not see ANY of the I17's launching theirs.... (I later found out that Les had dumped his boat within 30 seconds... the rest of the fleet took this lesson to heart... Jack Young launched his but he sailed VERY DEEP)
<br>
<br>The boat was a blast surfing down waves but this required constant attention. I jibed with no problem and was sailing well again... but I did not have anyone to follow. So.... Looking for C mark is not fun when you have to pay attention to the waves. I stuffed that poor boat into the back of a wave and the race was over.... I could have been a contender though!!! Probably was a good thing that I dumped the boat. I had forgotten to get the course. (That is the crew's job usually)
<br>
<br>I haven't looked at the corrected times yet. I am not convinced that the F16 configuration will be as fast as a Hobie 20 / F18/ Tiger. I read Woouter's calculations and models. I think that wind speed and wave action will be a huge factor in determining the speed of the boats. I also think that crew weights will be a huge factor in determing boat speed. I suggest the F16 group build in a period of boat for boat testing with the F18's...
<br>
<br>In the US... Since we don't have either an F16 or F18 class now. My hunch is that couples would be better served with a light weight F16 boat rather then a F18. (Why carry around all that weight). On the other hand.... the 18 footers could well have a larger weight carrying range. I would certainly like to know more about this.
<br>
<br>Well these are just my current thoughts, subject to change and based on a short sail on the Taipan.
<br>
<br>I highly recomend the Bim and the Taipan to anyone looking for a high performance lightweight fun boat.
<br>
<br>Personally, at 200 lbs. I would love a Taipan with a snuffer sailing one up.!
<br>
<br>Take Care
<br><br><br>

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crac.sailregattas.com
Thank you Mark, and indeed ... [Re: Mark Schneider] #2146
09/01/01 01:26 PM
09/01/01 01:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Thank you Mark, and indeed a period of testing the assumptions is wise. I think that no-one will disagree with me here when I say that that will the main objective/activity of the group for the comming year. With ofcource the David and Goliath Cup at its hart.
<br>
<br>Your comments about the BIM F16 were valuable.
<br>
<br>Kind Regards,
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

Attached Files
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Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Mark's impressions [Re: Mark Schneider] #2147
09/04/01 03:51 PM
09/04/01 03:51 PM
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Posts: 1,449
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phill Offline

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Mark,
<br>Thankyou for your report I enoyed the read.
<br>The comment rearding the Bim Carbon mast is interesting.
<br>I recently wieghed a blank Taipan Aluminium section and the difference, if a Carbon mast would have to be stronger hence heavier than a standard A class mast is not all that much.
<br>
<br>Phill<br><br>

Attached Files
2248- (73 downloads)

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Mark's impressions [Re: phill] #2148
09/04/01 06:42 PM
09/04/01 06:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 344
Arkansas, USA
Kirt Offline
enthusiast
Kirt  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 344
Arkansas, USA
Phill-
<br>My rigged Taipan mast is almost exactly 10 pounds heavier than my rigged Boyer "A" mast. Considering the "A" mast is longer I would think if made the same length, even with "beefing up" the carbon stick, you could maintain that weight differential. Interestingly, of course, AHPC did try a carbon mast for the Taipan when it was introduced into Europe but it was apparently TOO stiff vs the aluminum so they reverted to the aluminum. The thought at the time was that they had simply reduced the height of the "A" mast (my T 4.9 and "A" mast have the hounds at the same point up from the bottom!) to T 4.9 length and at that length it was too stiff to work well (since all the height came off the top).
<br>BIM apparently chose to avoid the prospect of trying to work out proper bend/sail issues for the BIM 16 by simply using the same mast/sail combo. as for the "A"'s (plus the 2 piece BIM mast has some "adjustability" due to the option of using different tops above the hounds).
<br>
<br>Kirt<br><br>Kirt Simmons
<br>Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48

Attached Files
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Kirt Simmons Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48
Re: Mark's impressions [Re: phill] #2149
09/05/01 12:37 PM
09/05/01 12:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 183
john p Offline
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john p  Offline
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Posts: 183
Phil, how heavy was the Taipan mast blank, <br><br>

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John Pierce

[email]stealthmarine@btinternet.com
/email]
mast weight [Re: john p] #2150
09/06/01 02:39 AM
09/06/01 02:39 AM

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Anonymous
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A blank 4.9 mast is 14 kg.<br><br>


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