If you ask for a transfer of funds directly into your bank account, it basically becomes a "cash" transaction and as it is "their" bank transfering it's (the banks) money into your bank, then to your account, the actual transactions are the responsibilities of the banks, your account is credited and their account is debited (or they can do it by taking cash to the bank and having the bank do the transaction even if they don't have a bank account). The old way (but still used by many) was that they took money (cash) to the post office and the post office would electronically forward it to your nearest PO where, with the appropriatre idetification, you could pick up the cash. problem solved! Deal as close to "cash" as possible, and there are less potentual problems (unless your worried about counterfiet money?)
Darryl

I've gotten a couple of these "bonus" checks....I contact the bank they are drawn on to confirm they are bogus then forward them to the internet fraud coordinator at the Tampa office of the FBI.

I just got this scam offer on my ad. I told him I only deal in cash. Do you think his agent will show up with the money?

I just got an offer on my add as well. What was the area code the call came from?

I already deleted it, but he claimed to be in Switzerland and would mail me a cashiers check for $3100 more than the price, to be deposited in an account to take care of the shipping. After the funds are all transferred , his "agent" would come and pick up the boat. I'm still waiting for his "agent" to come over with the cash.

Sorry to break in, but I would advise not to sell even if his "agent" shows up with cash. Don't try to outsmart him using whatever you think is a safe system to sell the boat. This person wants to rob you and your greed is his main weapon, so don't WANT to sell to him. Report to the authorities (there is indication of how somewhere in this thread) and refrain from doing ANY business with him. Avoid ANY contact.
Take care,
Luiz Schechter

Luis is absolutely correct -- these are criminals. I have heard reports where they have threatened violence. Just stay clear of them.
Rick

When I was selling my boat I was getting almost 5 scammers emailing me a day. It is almost enough to make me want to stop trying to sell on the web. Then when I wanted to purchase a Columbia 28 in North Carolina, I sent an email to the guy saying I would send him a cashiers check for the amount of the boat plus 2 months slip fee, because I wouldn't be able to make up there for a few months. he backed out and my guess is he thought I was trying to scam him. This is really ashame and all of us suffer.

Try again with a wire transfer. Avoid checks.

Have you ever read the actual text of a check? I don't remember the exactg words, but it means more or less the following:

To: Bank
Please debit my account with yourselves the amount of yyyy dollars and pay to Mr. xxx or the person he designates.

Essentially, the problem is that the check is only an instruction for the bank to pay someone - but it is NOT the actual payment.

A cashiers check is a check issued by the bank instructing itself to pay someone an amount. It is safer, but again, it is an instruction to pay - not the payment.

A wire transfer is the payment in itself and almost as good as cash. Note: almost.

Luiz,
What did you mean by a wire transfer is as good as cash "ALMOST"? In what cases would it not be as good as cash?

We have an unusual situation which just arose today.

We have an old Hobie Wave, with no rudders, for sale for $1,200. A guy in Belgium wants to buy it and says he will have a shipping company pick it up. He paid for it with a direct wire transfer into our bank account. The catch is that instead of sending $1,200, he sent $12,000.

We e-mailed him and told him of this apparent "error." He expressed surprise and gratitude that we are so "honest," but said this error was going to be a major hardship on him and his associate, and can we, as soon as possible, wire (bank transfer) back the $10,800 that was in excess of the purchase amount.

If this is a scam, it is a variation on the usual theme that involves a cashier's check, since this one involves an electronic transfer. And in the check cases they tell you up front that they are sending a check for more than the amount; whereas, in this case he is just saying it was an honest error.

I can't quite figure out how it works to the benefit of the scammer, since the whole $12,000 is in our account.

From what I have read, it could be part of a money-laundering operation where they are not really trying to get any money from us but just using a boat purchase as an excuse to move money around.

But if their $12,000 really is in our account, it puts us in an awkward position. We don't want to send the guy $10,800 unless we are absolutely sure we have the money -- like go to the bank and get the money in our hands and then send the $10,800 (or the whole $12,000, as far as I am concerned), because I can't believe the guy really wants this boat.

But if it turns out that the $12,000 he sent came out of someone else's account because of identity theft, would we be liable sometime in the future to reimburse the $12,000 to the true owner of the money?

On the other hand, if he really is the true owner of the money, we need to give it back to him.

And on the other other hand, if he is a crook using us to launder his money, if we give it back to him, we would be, in effect, aiding and abetting a criminal.

Has anybody else encountered this particular situation?

Are you serious!? Wow! I deal with international wire transfers pretty often but I have no idea how a fraudulent transfer could have taken place... but I promise that somehow the $12,000 that you received was not his or came from a make believe bank. He's going to potentially walk away with $10,800 clear for nothing if you send him the money. Wire transfer is handled cash - not credit... So if this guy really has $12,000+ in his bank account, He's not going to go through the hassle of buying a used Hobie Wave overseas and shipping it when a new one can be had relatively inexpensively near by. I would take the issue to the bank - definitely a scam...the $12k won't be good for long.

Hi Jake,
As soon I heard the overage, I contacted the Sheriff, FBI and the Bank Security Department. The money is definitely there and in my account.
I put a freeze on my account so no transactions can take place -- Mary thought he might have enough info of mine that he could arrange transfers from my account, although I believe that banks don't just take phone calls and wire money that haphazardly.
The bank does not think it is a scam at this time.

Think I will just go ahead and buy a new boat with it.

Rick

We just found out how this scam worked. Very clever.

The prospective buyer of the boat, supposedly in Belgium, got our account number from us so he could wire money directly into our account.

Then someone locally went to our bank with a phoney check supposedly from some insurance company settling a non-existent claim and deposited the phoney check for $12,000 into our account.

Then he e-mails telling us the wire transfer money (supposedly $1,200) will be in our account on this date.

Sure enough, the money is in our account, but $12,000 instead of $1,200.

We e-mail the "buyer" and tell him about the mistake, and he apologizes and asks us to send back the $10,800 overage.

When we talked to our bank about it, since we had told them it was a wire transfer, they said, "Yes, it's there and good as cash."

But now the bank has checked and found out there was NO wire transfer to our bank -- that it was a fraudulent check that was deposited.

I guess the moral to this is to never give your account number to anybody. Interesting, because occasionally we have given our deposit slips to people just because it has our phone number and address, and we figured what's the difference if they know our account number -- all they can do with it is put money into our account.

Now we know that somebody putting money into your account is not necessarily a good thing.

What's creepy about it is that this was done by somebody in the Keys who walked into our local bank. I hope they catch the perpetrators.

Let me make some comments on Mary's Post:
There is nothing wrong with giving someone your deposit info for a bank. Normally there is no problem.

These folks relied on timing. It was funny that he said next week he would arrange for the wire transfer. (By the way, I was very suspect the entire time). He finally let me know the wire was there on Wednesday.
Well, meanwhile, his conspirator in the US deposits a check for the mistaken amount with an extra "0" on the deposit the day before. Then he informs you the money is there on the next day.
You call your bank and sure enough the money is there, but way too much.
You pay him back, but the check is no good. ZAAAAAAMMMMM!

New Spin: Most folks.., and even the bank thought is was a wire deposit until they checked farther and found there was a deposit by check.

Now, Mary said it must be someone local, but think about it. These crooks can send out hundreds of emails daily and have a USA local run around depositing local checks to banks. They might have an abeter in areas, or districts.., but Jeez, even if they flew from Seattle to Miami, they would have made $10,000.
Not a bad price for a scam..., dependant on how many people you have to split it with.

This is a new ploy, and depends on timing and your ignorance. You call your bank and sure enough the money is there, even our bank thought it was a wire. After the security checked carefully they found there was no wire.
Had we not been on our toes, this would have cost us big time.

As the old saying goes, If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't"

In this case, however, we were selling a small cost item. This was just a way to use that as a way to swap money in their favor.

We are really glad we were able to offer our bodies to show you still another scam. By the way, I checked out a number of scam warning sites.., and this is not on them.
Hope we don't name this after me.


Watch Out!
Rick

Geeeze...you guys did good! I've always maintained that we're lucky that 95% of criminals aren't very smart...but that was definitely in that remaining 5%.

Mary, Rick,

First of all, the check could have been deposited to your account in any of your bank's branches. In fact, I believe that a big branch is more likely to be used then a smaller one.

There is a standard settlement procedure used by financil institutions to handle mistaken wire transfers and similar situations.

The short version: if you receive money that is not yours, the ONLY thing you do is authorize your bank to return the funds to the sender under the reference "unable to apply the funds". Nothing more.

Details:
Since the money was credited to your account by your bank, they are THE ONLY ONES who can ask for authorization to reverse the credit and return the funds to the sender. Your bank will do this (and nothing more) only after receiveing a similar request from the sender's bank, which, in turn, receives a similar request from the sender.

Any related message exchange MUST FOLLOW EXACTLY THE SAME PATH of the payment itself and MUST travel through autentified message exchange systems, preferably via the payment system itself.

Examples:
1) Your bank shall not accept any instruction from the sender, only from the sending bank.

2) No faxes, emails, phone calls or the like. All requests for devolution of funds, inquiries and informations are sent through SWIFT or other safe comunication system.

A new scam:
The local branch of Lloyds cautioned customers against another scam using a real deposit and a real check. It could happen anywhere:

Someone shows up and informs you that he deposited a small amount to your account by mistake. He produces the deposit ticket and aks if you would kindly write him a check to return the funds. You verify your statement. The money is there and was deposited in cash, so you give him the check. Then he erases the amount, replaces by a larger figure and collects.

What went wrong?
He accepted instructions to act from someone other then his bank and returned the funds directly, bypassing the bank, when the proper procedure would have been to follow the original comunication and payment path, as described here.

Whoever makes a mistaken deposit to your account must contact the bank (not you) and the bank will contact you. If you feel compelled to do something fast (honest people usually do), just inform your bank that you found an unknown entry in your statement of account and request and authorize the bank to "take the necessary steps to reverse the entry". Be carefull not to mention names or phone calls. The bank will verify the documentation of whoever claims to own the funds and the bank will return the money safely. You only talk to your bank.

Take care,
Luiz

We were almost victims of a brand new scam that I have not heard about
before. It is a unique twist on an old theme.


Here is what happened:


We had a small sailboat advertised for sale on our web site and in a
magazine. We received an e-mail ostensibly from somebody in Belgium who
wanted to buy it. The price was $1,200. (Sounds familiar so far, right?
Well, read on.)


So he tells us that he is going to wire transfer the $1,200 directly to our
bank account and have his shipping agent pick up the boat. (The difference
here is that in the older scams they were going to send a cashier's check
for more than the amount, and you send the balance to somebody else. BUT in
this case it was supposedly a wire transfer, that is supposed to be as good
as cash once it gets into your bank account. AND, it was supposed to be for
the exact amount of the purchase.)


He tells us that he will get the money wired sometime next week and will
let us know when the money is in our account.


On September 15 he e-mails us and tells us that the money is in our account.


We check our account, and sure enough, the money is there. The problem is
that he sent $12,000 instead of $1,200. So we e-mail him and tell him about
this overage. He e-mails back thanking us profusely for our honesty in
bringing this to his attention. But it is going to cause him and his
associate financial hardship, so can we please wire back the overage of
$10,800 as soon as possible.


Meanwhile, we are obviously extremely suspicious about the whole thing, so
we contact various agencies, and also
talk at length with the security person at our bank. She assures us that
the $12,000 is indeed in our account, and that it is as good as cash.
Because we told her that it was a wire transfer, she is assuming, too, that
it was a wire transfer.


Well, when she investigates further, she finds that it was actually a check
that was deposited into our account on September 14, the day before the
"buyer" e-mailed to tell us the money was there. So, obviously, either the
buyer himself or a cohort went into the bank personally to deposit the
check. Mail would not have worked, because the timing was very critical. So
somebody physically went into our bank to make the deposit.


The check was supposedly from Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and was
supposedly being deposited into our account to pay a claim. There was no
claim, and the check itself is fraudulent. We don't even know if there is
such an insurance company.


Two things are very clever about this scam:
One is that the "buyer" convinced us that he was sending a wire transfer.
And then he called us and told us it was there. And so we call the bank and
tell them there was a wire transfer to our account and ask if it is there.
The bank confirms that it is, but it is for this much higher amount than we
expected. Because of the fact that we tell the bank it was a wire transfer,
they go on that assumption. We were just fortunate that the security person
at our bank followed up on this and found out that it was not a wire
transfer at all, it was a check.


The other clever thing is that instead of telling us up front that he is
sending more money and wants us to send part of somewhere else, he
pretended that it was an honest error and whoever sent the bank transfer
inadvertently added a zero to the amount. So you as the seller think, "Oh,
no, I have this guy's money, and we have to give it back to him."


This, as I said, is a completely new twist to an old scam, and we have
never heard of this one before.


We think that probably the reason for the "buyer" telling us that
the money will be wired in about a week, and that he will tell us when it
is there, is so that his cohorts can travel around the country and get to
the specific banks where they need to personally deliver the bogus checks,
so the "buyer" can contact you the very next day to let you know it is there.


Our bank has the bad check. And I would think that they must have
surveillance camera video that might be able to spot the person who
presented that check to the bank. And maybe one of the tellers would
remember it, since it was a large amount of money and the deposit had to
have been made on Monday or Tuesday of this week.


And, by the way, since our e-mail telling
the buyer about his error in sending us too much money, and his answer back
asking us to send him the overage and that he will let us know where to send the money. We have not e-mailed him again as the ball is in his court.

Rick

If he found the ad on this site, possibly would he monitor this forum? If so he may not contact you again...

Probably just as well. Good information on those scams Rick, glad you were on top of it!

Clayton

I have been thinking the same thing, Clayton, but actually these scammers are probably too busy searching classifieds for potential "marks" and following through on them to have time to monitor forums. They are probably doing this with hundreds of people all over the country.

They usually seem to target classifieds for large items like cars, boats, antique furniture, pianos, etc. -- things that need to be shipped as opposed to mailed.

All the examples I have seen of scam e-mails, including the ones that were sent to us, use very poor English and have very bad spelling. Most people would think that this proves these people are from other countries. But how can you tell whether an e-mail is actually coming from Africa or Belgium or a town in Iowa? They usually use a free e-mail address, like through Yahoo or AOL or one of many other organizations. Intelligent scammers can certainly fake bad grammar and spelling.

The unfortunate thing is that possibly there are honest people from other countries who really do want to buy something, and they get rejected as being possible scammers.

On the other hand, it would never occur to me to buy something from Europe through a classified ad, and have it shipped over here. So why would somebody do it the other way? Do they really save that much money doing that? They have more catamarans in Europe now than we have in the U.S. They have lots of cars over there and antiques and musical instruments. Just doesn't make sense for somebody from Europe to buy something from the U.S. and have it shipped over there, sight unseen.

P.S. Rick thinks maybe some of these scammers are doing this to raise money for terrorist organizations, like al quaeda.

So far I am thinking they are just con artists who have been around forever, and they are very inventive and creative, and they seem to be keeping up with technology -- or maybe a step ahead of the rest of us.

But there is that other possibility that is more sinister than plain old greed.

Rick, Mary

I am sorry for not being able to reply soon enough to be of direct help. It is a relief that you escaped from this one.

As a rule, whenever excess funds are found in an account the standard procedure is to authorize the bank to reverse the transaction. Any further action may be dangerous - as proved by the attempted scam.

VERY IMPORTANT: you only authorize the bank to do anything to your account in connection to this check/credit/fraud, AFTER you receive a written request to do so. You must consult with your lawyer before signing anything they put in front of you.

You should not be requested by the bank to do nothing other then sending an authorization to reverse the transaction unknown to you. The authorities may ask for other things - mostly information that could help find the perpetrators - but this is totally different.

Why do I say this?
Because your bank was used for the fraud and they gave you incorrect information that would have helped the perpetrators if you weren't cautious. There is a (remote) possibility that a bank employee is involved, so they should be afraid of the possible developments. Its lawyers could try to reduce their (possible) liability by means of requesting you to sign some kind of disclaimer, so you must consult with your lawyer before signing whatever the bank presents to you.

Your lawyer should write (or at least check) any comunication or document you send to the bank. If the bank works well, consider that they should have recorded all your conversations with them from the moment the fraud was discovered.

The bank is not your "enemy", but until all the situation is cleared with the authorities, they will protect themselves, so you do the same.

For Mary: the reason why I wrote that a wire transfer is ALMOST as good as cash is that a wire transfer may be reversed in certain circumstances. It is not simple and not as easy to be used for frauds as checks, but it can happen, especially intraday. On the other hand, cash may be counterfeited, so there is no 100% safe system.

Take care,
Luiz