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#212975 - 06/07/10 05:10 PM Re: Formula 20 Class Rules [Re: cyberspeed]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,044
cyberspeed Offline
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cyberspeed  Offline
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
Ok, I have been giving this a lot of thought. What is wrong with going with "Outside Box Rules". IE: having maximum specs and allowing boats with less than the max be in the class. The exception being boat length. This gives the developers more freedom.

I am sure there is a reason for the Nacra F20 to have an 11' beam instead of 12' beam. You must remember the extra beam width does no good unless you are using it.

If you set the maximum values according to the largest factory parameters that are out there now, it allows all to compete in the class. Over time the manufacturers can increase their specs or offer upgrade parts/packages. Could mean additional revenue stream for the manufacturers.

The only issue I see is minimum weight. You might want to put different minimum weights on different beam widths. Obviously the wider you go the heavier it will be. If we are using the Nacra F20 as a model for many of the parameters, you will need to add a little weight for the extra foot of beam so manufacturers don't try to trim the weight off critical areas meeting that weight.


craig van eaton
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Supercat 20
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#213269 - 06/09/10 11:21 AM Re: Formula 20 Class Rules [Re: cyberspeed]  
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Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 12,278
South Carolina
I'm just throwing this out there for discussion - I haven't put much thought behind it.

What if you developed the IYRU B-class catamaran rule (where the Tornado started)? Does it need to be as restrictive as F18 or would the 10 item long A-cat-like rule set work?


Jake Kohl
#213322 - 06/09/10 08:21 PM Re: Formula 20 Class Rules [Re: Jake]  
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arbo06 Offline
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arbo06  Offline
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South Florida & the Keys
Hmmm. Development is key. Hmmm.


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
#213328 - 06/09/10 09:20 PM Re: Formula 20 Class Rules [Re: Jake]  
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cyberspeed Offline
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cyberspeed  Offline
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
Hi Jake,

Welcome to the discussion!

I was thinking of a smaller list similar to the A-class. That class seems to do fairly well so the rules must be working for that class.

I did a search and could not find any information on the B-Class.


craig van eaton
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Supercat 20
#214315 - 06/22/10 04:20 AM Re: Formula 20 Class Rules [Re: cyberspeed]  
Joined: Feb 2005
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Jalani Offline
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Jalani  Offline
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Essex, UK
Original B Class spec:

Length 20'
Width 10'
Sail Area 235 square feet
Crew 2


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
#214343 - 06/22/10 09:12 AM Re: Formula 20 Class Rules [Re: Jalani]  
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Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Annapolis, MD
One more attempt to focus the discussion., (having played in the past only to see the effort fall apart which drives the question... what did I miss)

Why do you want a Formula 20 rules set.... Obvious answer... to establish the conditions for FAIR RACING between 20's of different builders.

Next question... What races or regattas do you want to compete in?

The major distance races are contested now on measurement handicap... most view this as fair.... especially given the unique circumstances of any particular distance race.. (The old horses for courses argument). Why would a formula 20 rule improve this kind of racing...(versus the limitations it would impose on design) How many 20's are racing these days in the big distance races that would even be interested in a formula rule race replacing handicap.

Bottom Line Question... Why do you need a Formula class rule for Distance racing?

Seems to me... you only need a formula rule for short course buoy racing... (See F18, A class and C Class racing) The critical mass problem of getting enough boats to one event is enormous (see C class racing)... Only the 18 footers have solved the problem of numbers...

The Fair racing problem and participation in short courses has been solved by SMOD one designs (VX40, Decision 32, and the xxx27's) These purpose built boats are meant to compete in one circuit. The 20 footers HAD the Tornado with spin as the gran prix class (and now it is one design). ... but without the olympics... it's cratered. This evidence supports my point that it's the EVENTS which drive a class not the boat itself

I don't care how neat the boats are... it's the race or circuit which drives interest in the boat class. EG... the America's Cup drove all of the interest in the boats... Consider how limited the interest was in the maxi tri's out there breaking world records.... So... Amerca's Cup > XXX round the world > trans atlantic record. There is no obvious circuit for a F20 class

My point.... Given the investment... Why would a formula rule at the 20 foot level generate more interest in short course racing?... Or put another way... How much better would short course racing be over handicap or level racing given the numbers?

I answered the question and came to the conclusion that the F20 rule was simply too close to the f18's in experience and culture.. and you could just not make a strong case for a F20 rule.

So, without a good reason for existing... a class of people interested in pushing a F20 rule class just never materializes. The formmula 20 rule is simply a tool.... With out agreement on what the racers want to build.... even a perfectly marvelous rule will go unused.

Your milage may vary


crac.sailregattas.com
#215044 - 06/30/10 08:12 PM Re: Formula 20 Class Rules [Re: Mark Schneider]  
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cyberspeed Offline
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cyberspeed  Offline
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
Some of the distance races have class scoring as well as open scoring. I would one day like to do the Tybee 500. Right now they only allow classes of 5 minimum. I very much doubt I will get 5 supercat 20's to do it so this would be a good step toward that direction. There are other instances that it could be helpful to have multiple boats under the same box rules.


craig van eaton
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Supercat 20
#215113 - 07/01/10 12:07 PM Re: Formula 20 Class Rules [Re: cyberspeed]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Annapolis, MD
So we agree that specific races are driving the interest in a formula 20 class.

I suspect that the Tybee would allow an open class if you had 5 boats interested. Moreover, I believe the racing would be fairer on a measurement handicap rule then fitting your existing boats into a formula box and asserting that the racing will be fair under the formula.

Remember, The proof of a formula rule is on the water and knowing that it's fair is a precondition to getting good participation for an expensive to compete distance race.
The F18 rule is proving to be fair, Even the very pro development A Class formula rule is proving to be pretty fair... a (Flyer I pulled a top 10 finish in a Race at the worlds. The F16 rule on the other hand generates controversy and boats that have different ratings.... time will tell if the controversy that we see now is just noise or the rules need tweaking. I don't think you can underestimate the need for boats allowed under the rule to actually BE level.... not just mathematically equivalent.... otherwise... your race turns into a tour.



crac.sailregattas.com
#215219 - 07/02/10 10:20 PM Re: Formula 20 Class Rules [Re: Mark Schneider]  
Joined: Dec 2003
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cyberspeed Offline
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cyberspeed  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,044
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
The Tybee will not allow an open class. They require 5 boats in the same class (Portsmouth Number).

Without a set of rules, new boats will be built to what ever specs they want. You have to have a starting point for builders to build to. One of the keys would be to talk to the manufacturers and get them onboard. That might even be a good starting point getting feedback from them so they feel part of the system.


craig van eaton
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Supercat 20
#219563 - 09/14/10 12:36 PM Re: Formula 20 Class Rules [Re: cyberspeed]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1
halfcat Offline
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halfcat  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1
I've owned a Supercat 20, 12ft beam and a nacra 18sq, 11 ft beam. I'm a bigger guy than the f-18 skippers usually are and I think a wider beam (12') 20 foot cat is a great platform. I just saw the 2nd Nacra 20 Carbon to come to the US up close this past weekend and I think a box rule that is a maximum (less than max ok) is a good idea, with a simple list of rules like the a-cat it will foster development.

Last edited by halfcat; 09/14/10 12:37 PM.
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