Forum Index |  Albums |  Classified Ads |  Catamarans For Sale |  Calendar |  Submit Events
Announcements
New Discussions
Adding a Jib to a Mossie
by Gary Fleming. 12/07/17 11:29 PM
F101 finally in production
by Jake. 12/05/17 06:49 PM
Tradewinds Regatta?
by samc99us. 12/05/17 04:30 PM
Easy way to really learn the Racing Rules
by Mike Fahle. 11/28/17 07:30 AM
Dynema trap lines diameter?
by mmadge. 11/25/17 08:10 AM
foiling chasing UFO
by northsea junkie. 11/23/17 03:12 AM
New Mystere 4.3 in Central Florida
by Mike Fahle. 11/22/17 04:46 PM
36th America's Cup
by waterbug_wpb. 11/21/17 12:10 PM
Fatality During Clipper Race
by Redtwin. 11/20/17 07:56 AM
--Advertisement--
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
#226443 - 01/08/11 08:13 AM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: Karl_Brogger]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick/Tables_2010/Multihull_Classes.htm

A's are very nice boats. But not quite as fast as F16s.

Multihull Classes
Multihull Classes Napy D-PN Wind HC For Handicap Range
Code 0-1 2-3 4 5-9
18m2 (Cat.1 Open) 18SM-1 64.2 68.2 65.4 63.4 60.0
18m2 (Cat.2 incl 11' N5.5) 18SM-2 67.2 69.0 67.3 66.5 64.0
A Class Cat A-C 64.5 68.8 65.6 63.8 60.9
Formula 16 spi F16 63.0 66.0 64.5 61.9 60.1

Last edited by pgp; 01/08/11 08:18 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

-- Have You Seen This? --
#226446 - 01/08/11 09:48 AM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: pgp]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
frozencdn Offline
stranger
frozencdn  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
Manitoba, Canada
The spinnaker run really does make a difference! But I have to say I still think I will enjoy pointing more. The one thing I hated on all other boats after the seaspray was not being able to go where I wanted.


Rip and tear mend and repair, repeat
#226447 - 01/08/11 09:56 AM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: frozencdn]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
I'd say you're in good company! The A class sailors are dedicated to their boats and have attracted some of the best sailors in the world.

Spinnaker boats are both a blessing and a curse. They are more complicated but sailing the F16 under spin is the most enjoyable thing I've ever done as a sailor.

Off to run some errands.

Cheers!


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#226448 - 01/08/11 10:24 AM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: pgp]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
Mike Hill Offline
old hand
Mike Hill  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
If you only ever go out singlehanded the Acat can't be beat.

If you want to take a friend for a sail sometimes you might want to go for the F16.

The spin is fun but if you are setting it up for every sail the A cat is so easy and quick to set up you would probably get out more.

Both are great boats with light masts. The F16 is overpowered for one person in winds over 15 knots. Of course the A is a handful in 20 knots too.

Both great boats and both point very well.


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
#226450 - 01/08/11 01:24 PM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: Mike Hill]  
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
waynemarlow Offline
old hand
waynemarlow  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
Originally Posted by Mike Hill

The F16 is overpowered for one person in winds over 15 knots. .

What can be overpowered for some, others are just getting into their stride. Most single handers seem to be able to sail pretty confortably above the 20 knot mark now, once you get to grips with loads of downhaul on, bring the mast rotation in and if you have to drop the travellor a bit.

One of the great things about the modern F16's and A's is the very broad band of wind and conditions they can be sailed in.

You will enjoy either boats but having the freedom of an occassional crew is real bonus, particularly if you have nippers or wives who are sometimes sailors. Enjoy

#226452 - 01/08/11 02:04 PM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: waynemarlow]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
frozencdn Offline
stranger
frozencdn  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
Manitoba, Canada
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
the freedom of an occassional crew is real bonus, particularly if you have nippers or wives who are sometimes sailors. Enjoy


an A-CLASS cannot be sailed with a passenger?


Rip and tear mend and repair, repeat
#226458 - 01/08/11 03:12 PM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: frozencdn]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
I doubt that, though I've never seen more than 1 aboard an A. Certainly you cannot reasonably race an A with more than 1 aboard.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#226459 - 01/08/11 03:35 PM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: pgp]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Jalani Offline
veteran
Jalani  Offline
veteran

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Modern A's don't handle weight well. They are very sensitive to weight distribution and have very little volume. They are absolutely brilliant at what they were designed to do - race singlehanded!
The F16 is much more capable when it comes to overall versatility and weight handling. They sail very well for daysailing with just main or amin and jib rigged. For real fun blasting then take the extra time to rig the spin.
As to being overpowered solo - I'm just 70Kgs and have RACED (and finished second on h'cap to a Dart 15) in winds of 25kts + and gusts up to 35. Admittedly I only pulled the spin on one lap of that race and almost scared myself witless but I didn't capsize and had a fantastic battle boat for boat with a Tornado.
Sailing in 20kts plus is a regular hoot and I love it!!!


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
#226466 - 01/08/11 07:17 PM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: Jalani]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
frozencdn Offline
stranger
frozencdn  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
Manitoba, Canada
I do like the idea of being able to take people for a ride every now and then. This is a great thread for this decision. I thought I was "A-class" sold but...

What are the F16 platforms availible in North America? How do they stack up?


Rip and tear mend and repair, repeat
#226472 - 01/08/11 08:57 PM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: frozencdn]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Basically, just the Viper and Falcon. If you can find a Taipan 4.9 it would be worth a look.

http://funinthesunweb.com/

http://www.falconmarinellc.com/

http://vimeo.com/4054854

http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=388086060956

Last edited by pgp; 01/08/11 09:11 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#226518 - 01/09/11 11:00 PM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: pgp]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 232
JJ_ Offline
enthusiast
JJ_  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 232
I was told not to mess with the A or F16 because they break too easily. And cost too much to repair. But that sounded like sour grapes? Think so? However, incredible sail plans and no back pain mast stepping might tip the balance to owning one. Just don't have kiddies in college...

Last edited by JJ_; 01/09/11 11:01 PM.
#226519 - 01/10/11 05:58 AM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: JJ_]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

I was told not to mess with the A or F16 because they break too easily. And cost too much to repair. But that sounded like sour grapes? Think so?



That is nonsense. I can only speak for the F16's, but feel the A's are less fragile that most think. The F16's however are impressively robust for boats that lightweight. In fact, the data I have seems to put them on a par with heavier boats like the I-17 and Hobie FX-one. None of the modern boats are tanks like the H16 and all suffer occasionally from a deck splitting or something. Most of these boats are hand build and sometimes the workman has had a bad night of sleep. However, the design behind the F16's is good and you will not break them easily during sailing. Rocks and submerged containers are a different matter but no modern racing cat will bump into those and take it in its stride. That is the difference between a 200 kg boat and 100 kg boat. Repair costs are pretty standard too. Summarizing; if you take some care with your boat then you'll be alright. If you neglect it often and throw it about without a care in the world then no modern cat is suitable for you.

We know this as we have had some pretty darn rough condition over a series of F16 events and 8 years of sailing/racing them in all conditions.

And ohh, never leave an Acat or F16 unattended and unmoored to the ground. They are so lightweight and their wingmasts are so powerful that a reasonable gust of wind will flip them over (even if the mainsail is not hoisted).


Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 01/10/11 06:00 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#226521 - 01/10/11 06:45 AM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: JJ_]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Smiths_Cat Offline
addict
Smiths_Cat  Offline
addict

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
I have a Bimare javelin 16 with carbon mast. In a storm the boat was torn from the ground anchor, flipped over to the side and hit with the chainplate my metal sailing box, leaving a dent in it, finally the tip of the mast was pushed into the ground by the wind pressure on the trampoline. The chainplate was bent, that was all. I have seen boats described as tanks, which had a folded mast after such an accident. I have seen similar with an A-cat and the mast (and the boat) survived as well.
People who tell stories about the fragility of those boats, never owned one. Of course it is not like a Wave or Dart 16, just like other glass or carbon sandwich boats. The decission is fairly easy, A-cat is lighter (75kg) and F16 (107kg-140kg) can sailed by two people, A-cat not. Both are fun, a spinnaker add more fun at light winds, but you can rig a spin on an A-cat fur fun sailing as well.

Cheers,

Klaus

#226568 - 01/10/11 05:35 PM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: frozencdn]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Rhino1302 Offline
enthusiast
Rhino1302  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
Not sure I understand your emphasis on pointing ability. Sure an A-cat points high and will get to the windward mark faster than just about any similarly sized cat, but it's a matter of degree and something you might not notice if you were recreationally sailing instead of racing.

Maybe more experienced folks can give you an estimate on the difference in VMG to windward between the A-cat and F16. My wild guess would be 5%.

#226577 - 01/10/11 07:03 PM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: Rhino1302]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
frozencdn Offline
stranger
frozencdn  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
Manitoba, Canada
Originally Posted by Rhino1302
Not sure I understand your emphasis on pointing ability.


just my point of view, never had to justify it but... I enjoyed beating hobbies up wind on my seaspray. It was all about the ability to get upwind faster. When I go out for recreation, I like to feel like I am beating the wind. I want to be able to do that as much as possible. I guess the wind is my opposition. The coast home with the wind has never been a challenge. The spi looks pretty, but I think it's a cake walk, a time to catch some rays and have a beer after winning the real race of getting up wind. just my opinion


Rip and tear mend and repair, repeat
#226580 - 01/10/11 07:15 PM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: frozencdn]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Originally Posted by frozencdn
Originally Posted by Rhino1302
Not sure I understand your emphasis on pointing ability.


The coast home with the wind has never been a challenge. The spi looks pretty, but I think it's a cake walk, a time to catch some rays and have a beer ...


laugh You can't do that under spin on the F16. You'll spend all your time swimming.

The F16 is very responsive. It accelerates very quickly and turns even more quickly. You have to stay on your toes at all times.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#226582 - 01/10/11 07:18 PM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: frozencdn]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
South Carolina
Originally Posted by frozencdn
Originally Posted by Rhino1302
Not sure I understand your emphasis on pointing ability.


just my point of view, never had to justify it but... I enjoyed beating hobbies up wind on my seaspray. It was all about the ability to get upwind faster. When I go out for recreation, I like to feel like I am beating the wind. I want to be able to do that as much as possible. I guess the wind is my opposition. The coast home with the wind has never been a challenge. The spi looks pretty, but I think it's a cake walk, a time to catch some rays and have a beer after winning the real race of getting up wind. just my opinion


ahhh...then the simplicity of one sail and three strings on an a-cat should be your steed.


Jake Kohl
#226593 - 01/11/11 02:52 AM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: Rhino1302]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

Maybe more experienced folks can give you an estimate on the difference in VMG to windward between the A-cat and F16. My wild guess would be 5%.


May even be less then that; the real point is that the A's are pointers while F16's are footers. Both have good VMG to windward but do so through different means. A's point very high with reasonable speed en the F16's go fast with reasonable pointing; the end result is about the same with the edge to the A's. Till the windward mark that is, when the spi leg comes then it is all over. Here the F16's will point deep and go fast where the A's are sort of limited in both aspects.

For distance races and touring the F16's have the edge over the A's (if not more than that). In such sailing there is typically alot of non-pure upwind work and here it pays to go everywhere fast rather then excell in just pointing. Say the mark is upwind but at an angle that other boats like the F16's can make in one leg then the pointing ability of the A's has been rendered useless. It then all comes down to boatspeed and while the A's are certainly fast, other modern designs are too !

This leads back to one of the earlier posts ; The A's are excellent for what they are designed for. Course Racing with preferably an upwind leg to the finish. They have evolved to that suppremecy at the cost of performance during other uses.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 01/11/11 02:57 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#226594 - 01/11/11 03:00 AM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: frozencdn]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

The spi looks pretty, but I think it's a cake walk, a time to catch some rays and have a beer after winning the real race of getting up wind. just my opinion



Then you are in for a real surprise !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#226595 - 01/11/11 04:39 AM Re: New member looking for advice, A-Class? [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,333
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,333
Kingston SE South Australia
I have to agree with Wouter, I owned an A class and it was super responsive to any adjustment but it doesn't have that feeling of power. I shadowed a F16, that the new owner was using with spin for the first time 1 up with spin for 13km in 15-17knots, there was spray everywhere and it was exciting to watch, definately a want one moment for me


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 19 guests, and 300 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
NilsonPardal, corrinezhan, pussycatcatman, Shotsailor, PointDume
7726 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Jake 6
Timbo 3
P.M. 2
Forum Statistics
Forums27
Topics22,268
Posts266,191
Members7,726
Most Online554
May 12th, 2017
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.012s Queries: 16 (0.003s) Memory: 0.9231 MB (Peak: 1.1780 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-12-15 00:45:49 UTC