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tradewinds wind #227105
01/20/11 10:33 AM
01/20/11 10:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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Rick: As usual I was lost and carried starboard tack much further upwind than the front runners. (no it didn't occur to me to just follow them) Then when I flopped over to port, I was much further below the mark than I'd expected to be. The top guys seemed to be sailing in the middle of the course.

What did they see that I missed?

Inquiring minds and all that...


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: tradewinds wind [Re: pgp] #227108
01/20/11 10:57 AM
01/20/11 10:57 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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Pete,
We found if you stayed on starboard tack all the way to the lay line or even a little past you would be headed at the end of your starboard run but lifted on port when you tacked. The port tack would lift you all the way to the mark with a little header at the end if you tacked early on starboard it seemed like you would sail more of a header on port.

Re: tradewinds wind [Re: Dlennard] #227109
01/20/11 11:22 AM
01/20/11 11:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
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pgp Offline OP
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Hmm.. now I'm really lost!

I carried starboard a long way and thought I carried it too far but apparently not because I never got the lift.

In any case, most of the F16s seemed to be tacking to port fairly early and working that side of the course. It worked for the leaders, I just never picked up any clear signal that it was time to tack.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: tradewinds wind [Re: pgp] #227110
01/20/11 11:48 AM
01/20/11 11:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
Hmm.. now I'm really lost!

I carried starboard a long way and thought I carried it too far but apparently not because I never got the lift.

In any case, most of the F16s seemed to be tacking to port fairly early and working that side of the course. It worked for the leaders, I just never picked up any clear signal that it was time to tack.


When all the leaders take off the other way - How much clearer of a signal do you need? laugh

Re: tradewinds wind [Re: pgp] #227112
01/20/11 11:54 AM
01/20/11 11:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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we went to the right on day 3 almost every race (mainly due to crappy starts and needing to get some clean air). didn't pay off frown

Last edited by PTP; 01/20/11 11:54 AM.
Re: tradewinds wind [Re: PTP] #227113
01/20/11 12:12 PM
01/20/11 12:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Fundamentals - get to the race area early, sail part of a beat, see what's going on. At the very least, you can watch as others do this and see which side is favored.

Failing that, keep an eye on the competition like Matt suggests. Every once in a long while, leverage pays out; most of the time, though, if you're headed to a private corner and you don't know if it is favored, it probably isn't.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: tradewinds wind [Re: Dlennard] #227114
01/20/11 12:35 PM
01/20/11 12:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by Dlennard
Pete,
We found if you stayed on starboard tack all the way to the lay line or even a little past you would be headed at the end of your starboard run but lifted on port when you tacked. The port tack would lift you all the way to the mark with a little header at the end if you tacked early on starboard it seemed like you would sail more of a header on port.


I did this and found that I was getting bad air off the fleet of F18 that would continue on Starbord Spi run rounding the offset.


USA 777
Re: tradewinds wind [Re: tback] #227117
01/20/11 01:05 PM
01/20/11 01:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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On day 1 (Friday) the wind was going right all day, you'll recall the RC reset the course after we could one-tack A mark on Stbd. When the wind is going right, you want to get right asap and ride the lift into A mark.

On day 2 it was still going right, just not nearly as much, and occilating more, but you had to decide if you were going to go right early to avoid the F18 spinnaker parade (and resultant bad air) or if you were going to hit the left corner to avoid same.

On day 3 it was light and fluky, you really had to watch out for the holes going upwind, and try to stay in the puffs downwind, hope for the best on the gate laylines.




Blade F16
#777
Re: tradewinds wind [Re: Timbo] #227119
01/20/11 01:13 PM
01/20/11 01:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 402
Punta Gorda, FL
J
jkkartz1 Offline
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Punta Gorda, FL
Pete,

You should get a good book on strategy & tactics. The old Stuart Walker and Eric Twiname books helped me alot.

Re: tradewinds wind [Re: Matt M] #227120
01/20/11 01:15 PM
01/20/11 01:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Matt M
Originally Posted by pgp
Hmm.. now I'm really lost!

I carried starboard a long way and thought I carried it too far but apparently not because I never got the lift.

In any case, most of the F16s seemed to be tacking to port fairly early and working that side of the course. It worked for the leaders, I just never picked up any clear signal that it was time to tack.


When all the leaders take off the other way - How much clearer of a signal do you need? laugh


I know. But without picking up on the physical signs i.e. a shift or change in pressure I'd just be following. I'm still trying to figure out what they saw and felt that I missed.

Jack- reading and understanding are not the same. If anything I've read too much. I think I'm fixated on some old habit that I still haven't identified.

In any case we had the best weather we've had in at least three years and I'd rather sail in the Keys than any place I know.

I'm about thirty miles south of Charlotte Harbor and the weather today is absolutely gorgeous. Just in case any of you are thinking about coming down.


Last edited by pgp; 01/20/11 01:26 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: tradewinds wind [Re: pgp] #227122
01/20/11 01:35 PM
01/20/11 01:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Hi Pete,
Two rules for sailing upwind
*If oscillating wind, tack on the headers and hold the lifts
*If persistent, go the direction the shifts are going.

Almost every day saw persistent shifts going right, and almost entirely the right side was favored.
On the Orange course it was even more so, as we were closer to land.

So, another little big of lore: If land on the right and water to the left(as it was), go to the right.
When you were at my seminar I think you quit midweek before we got to the tactics and windshifts, as I recall.
However, in the magazine I do a tactics column and much of it is about this sort of thing


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: tradewinds wind [Re: RickWhite] #227126
01/20/11 01:57 PM
01/20/11 01:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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I did leave mid week, but what I got was enjoyable. And I always read your column.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: tradewinds wind [Re: pgp] #227137
01/20/11 03:15 PM
01/20/11 03:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Pete, your next move (assuming you've read enough Stuart Walker), in regards to "seeing" what the wind is doing, would be to get some type of compass, a speed puck or tactic, onto your spin pole, and learn how to use it to identify shifts, both persistant and occilating.

We didn't need a compass because we had the land (as well as other boats) as a backdrop to see what was happening, ie. lifted or headed.


Blade F16
#777
Re: tradewinds wind [Re: pgp] #227140
01/20/11 03:46 PM
01/20/11 03:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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South Carolina
My approach was:

A) get a clean start - find favored end. After day 1, throw everything away if needed to prevent Trey from banging out a port tack start because whether or not it was part of my game plan, the F18 fleet (who was watching everything waiting for their start) was going to give me another load of crap about it.

B) wind was supposed to work it's way to the right every day. When in doubt, or especially if you find yourself in trouble getting washed/dirty air, go right.

C) there usually was better pressure but worse angle to the left (starboard beat) and patchy pressure to the right. If you worked the middle, you could usually find a better angle and more consistent pressure. When in doubt, refer to B and plan to shift gears often.

D) If you find yourself completely screwed (capsized, way late to the start, mechanical issue, etc) bang hard left to perform an unlikely "Hail Mary".


Jake Kohl
Re: tradewinds wind [Re: Jake] #227142
01/20/11 03:58 PM
01/20/11 03:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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You guys are making my head hurt! smile But thanks for your input. It seems like following is the easiest solution. I'll worry about the rest if I ever catch up.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: tradewinds wind [Re: Jake] #227143
01/20/11 04:00 PM
01/20/11 04:00 PM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by Jake
My approach was:

A) get a clean start - find favored end. After day 1, throw everything away if needed to prevent Trey from banging out a port tack start because whether or not it was part of my game plan, the F18 fleet (who was watching everything waiting for their start) was going to give me another load of crap about it.

B) wind was supposed to work it's way to the right every day. When in doubt, or especially if you find yourself in trouble getting washed/dirty air, go right.

C) there usually was better pressure but worse angle to the left (starboard beat) and patchy pressure to the right. If you worked the middle, you could usually find a better angle and more consistent pressure. When in doubt, refer to B and plan to shift gears often.

D) If you find yourself completely screwed (capsized, way late to the start, mechanical issue, etc) bang hard left to perform an unlikely "Hail Mary".


What do you do after Mary shows up?

Re: tradewinds wind [Re: pgp] #227144
01/20/11 04:02 PM
01/20/11 04:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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RickWhite  Offline

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Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Just a tip: always keep asking yourself if you are sailing a header or lift. And always know. Headers are your friend.., after you tack it becomes a lift.
Another off the cuff: after rounding C, is the angle to mark more or less than 45-degrees? Less is good.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: tradewinds wind [Re: pgp] #227145
01/20/11 04:17 PM
01/20/11 04:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
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tampa, fl
Originally Posted by pgp
You guys are making my head hurt! smile But thanks for your input. It seems like following is the easiest solution. I'll worry about the rest if I ever catch up.


Stay away from the corners (unless your hoping for Mary to show up). Once you get to a layline, you're out of options.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: tradewinds wind [Re: ] #227146
01/20/11 04:36 PM
01/20/11 04:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Originally Posted by MN3
What do you do after Mary shows up?


Jump for Joy.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: tradewinds wind [Re: John Williams] #227148
01/20/11 05:21 PM
01/20/11 05:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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pgp  Offline OP
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Thanks again everyone. This is all good stuff.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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