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ISAF gets to screw it up this week. #231843
05/03/11 05:51 PM
05/03/11 05:51 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Well It's fish or cut bait time..

ISAF is meeting and the multihull Olympic future is up in the air.

If you want to catch up... read Sailworld 's Richard Gladwell

I love this line...
Quote
By ditching Multihull Event, when the poorly organised and politically naive Tornado class was caught napping in November 2007, the ISAF reinforced its stereotyped thinking to its sailing constituency.


65 petitions are to be voted on.... all of which could edge out the mixed multihull (god forsaken POS that it is IMO)

Do any of the USA Classes have their international reps going?

Who is going so that the same can not be said of this generation!


crac.sailregattas.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #231846
05/03/11 07:50 PM
05/03/11 07:50 PM
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ISAF is a four letter word...


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Buccaneer] #231848
05/03/11 09:06 PM
05/03/11 09:06 PM
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John Williams Offline
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Every single submission includes at least one multihull event. Frost the mugs, chill the bubbly.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: John Williams] #231870
05/04/11 07:35 AM
05/04/11 07:35 AM
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So I guess the "Events Committee" is the one to watch even though the "ISAF Council" has final say? Good to see that there is catamaran representation on the Events Committee. At least we have a voice at the table.

I agree with John that they will be hard pressed not to include a multihull event. A lot of support and good reasoning submitted as to how multihulls meet many of the goals desired for an Olympic sailing event for the PUBLIC.

It is too bad about the 2012 Games but that is spilled milk under the table now and we can only learn from it.

The Evaluation Trials will be interesting but I'm putting the cart before the horse.



Kris Hathaway
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Kris Hathaway] #231877
05/04/11 08:05 AM
05/04/11 08:05 AM
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Jake Offline
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It would be evermore a travesty Especially now that the penultimate professional sailing event has gone to multihulls


Jake Kohl
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Jake] #231906
05/04/11 01:47 PM
05/04/11 01:47 PM
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I think you mean the ultimate sailing event has gone multihull.

penultimate means next to last.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: bvining] #231907
05/04/11 01:57 PM
05/04/11 01:57 PM
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Please stop using obscure multi-syllabic words. My tenth grade edumication can't keep up. laugh

Last edited by Karl_Brogger; 05/04/11 01:58 PM.

I'm boatless.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #231909
05/04/11 02:26 PM
05/04/11 02:26 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Malcom Gladwell writes today

Quote
Second, drop the Mixed Events. They are an artificial creation for politically correct reasons.

The notion that Mixed Events are more media friendly is a load of codswallop. Instead opt for Open Events and close classes that can be sailed by men and women, or all female, or all male crews. Enforce gender equality (in terms of physical strength and weight) by choosing classes – when that time comes that are equal in the hands of an all male crew, and all female crew or a male and female crew.


Hmm.... (please lord... remove the mixed doubles curse from our vocabulary)

(Sorry Karl.... vocabulary.... probably OK... I don't know what codswallop is either)

BUT... Can you say F16 Viper!

OOPS.... can you say TORNADO!!!!

Sailworld Interview with Gabler.... not the one you know!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #231919
05/04/11 04:10 PM
05/04/11 04:10 PM
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Did some research. The 2007 debacle consisted with the ISAF Council ignoring the Events Committee's recommendation relative to multihulls. So much for my earlier question.


Kris Hathaway
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: bvining] #231922
05/04/11 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bvining
I think you mean the ultimate sailing event has gone multihull.

penultimate means next to last.


No, he got it right. The Hobie 16 Worlds is the ultimate sailing competition.

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: brucat] #231942
05/05/11 04:58 AM
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Dont vote for mixed it will fail, I have been to plenty of Nationals and never ever seen a mixed team!

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #231944
05/05/11 05:17 AM
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The design team from the America's Cup cats is offering up the AC 18 for the Olympics.

http://forum.sailingscuttlebutt.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=11790

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Devon] #231947
05/05/11 06:36 AM
05/05/11 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Devon
Dont vote for mixed it will fail, I have been to plenty of Nationals and never ever seen a mixed team!

You've never seen a Hobie 16 event, then?
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: mbounds] #231952
05/05/11 07:11 AM
05/05/11 07:11 AM
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Latest update from St Petersburg

Events committee's recommendation to the ISAF council is:
Board/Kiteboard men & women (evaluation).
One person dinghy men Laser men, women Laser radial.
2nd one person dinghy men Finn.
Two person dinghy men & women 470.
Skiff men 49er.
Skiff women (evaluation).
Mixed two person multihull (evaluation).

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Helen (AHPC)] #231954
05/05/11 07:31 AM
05/05/11 07:31 AM
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Wow! No keelboat. Guess they are considering cost as a primary constraint.


Kris Hathaway
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: jkkartz1] #231957
05/05/11 07:46 AM
05/05/11 07:46 AM

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MarkMT
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That piece refers to a video highlights package from the Beijing Tornado medal race that won the Gold Rings Award - has anyone seen that? Is it available online some place?

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Helen (AHPC)] #231962
05/05/11 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Helen (AHPC)
Latest update from St Petersburg

Events committee's recommendation to the ISAF council is:
Board/Kiteboard men & women (evaluation).
One person dinghy men Laser men, women Laser radial.
2nd one person dinghy men Finn.
Two person dinghy men & women 470.
Skiff men 49er.
Skiff women (evaluation).
Mixed two person multihull (evaluation).



Why are there TWO "One Person Dinghy" classes, Laser AND Finn? and again, why are there two "Two person Dinghy classes", 470 AND 49'r??


Blade F16
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #231963
05/05/11 08:37 AM
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Get rid of the Finn and/or the 470, add a Catamaran. Come on, this shouldn't be that hard to figure out.


Blade F16
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #231965
05/05/11 09:08 AM
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Cool!

Attached Files
ac18.jpg (265 downloads)
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Helen (AHPC)] #231971
05/05/11 10:16 AM
05/05/11 10:16 AM
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this is a pretty wild thing how these decisions are reached. Don't get me wrong - I'm elated that the multihull is back on the table but a forced mixed (male/female) is not representative of our sport...I guess you could look at it as a chicken/egg scenario that if the Olympics are mixed, it will create more mixed teams?

Keeping two single handed dingies and killing both keel boats doesn't make sense either. There should be some easy logic to all of this to define the classes and then pick the configurations that match the sport as it exists.

Do the Olympics dictate that events be male/female/mixed with no opportunity for "open"?


Jake Kohl
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Helen (AHPC)] #231975
05/05/11 10:33 AM
05/05/11 10:33 AM
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Ok... it's all about driving!

So... Men will have driving opportunities
in Laser, Finn, 470 and 49ner.

Women will have driving opportunities in
Laser, Mixed multi, 470 and 29nerXX

Looking at it this way... the 16 footers would not win out in a trial. You might as well go with a 20 footer... You also need something for the Olympic flash! A 20 footer will make for the best show on video. The 49ner show is just not that eye catching. A 20 foot cat would make this event the feature event (along with kites) at the sailing olympics.

Perhaps the executive committee will take into account the demographics of sailors (60-40 male-female) and make Multihull ... Open ... and then pick a 16 footer to get lots of options for teams.

They probably have done the best they could hope with extending sailing to the rest of the world.

I would be delighted if they made multi... Open and made a very specific charge to the selection committee for what they want to see with respect to participation opportunities.

I would give this option no more then a 5% chance though.





crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Jake] #231979
05/05/11 10:44 AM
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>Do the Olympics dictate that events be male/female/mixed with no opportunity for "open"?<

Is their "open" for Figure Skating Pairs? or Ice dancing?

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Jake] #231982
05/05/11 11:38 AM
05/05/11 11:38 AM
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Quote
if the Olympics are mixed, it will create more mixed teams?


Remember... these classes will loose their ability to host worlds. (The ISAF takes over) So... for the rank and file to worlds level...The answer to your question is NO!... Olympics is just a special circumstance. The number of mixed teams will depend on the number of Olympic slots and the RULES for how slots are awarded world wide. At best you might have three teams in a country competing for one slot per country.

For example, How many US Tornado teams were there in the USA over the last 12 years.... There was no fleet racing outside of the Miami OCR's, the pre regatta and one other event... called nationals. There is very little Tornado Fleet racing after the boat was eliminated from the games.

Quote
killing both keel boats doesn't make sense either.


Actually, I think it does... the Olympics are about young athletes.... 50 year old men and women wiggling the stick playing a tactical chess game that is difficult to video doesn't cut it.

If the Olympic Ideal is ultimate athlete performance and single/double handed dinghies will have a narrow weight range ... having a couple of options makes a lot of sense.

We have this romantic notion that sailors work their way up their fleet's national ladder and then graduate to the Olympic level... The reality is that athletes commit the time and money to the Olympics and then get the training and coaching and class that suits them. having a niche for all sizes of sailors makes sense... your 230 lb sailor better like a Finn... No Nacra 20 for you!

Dinghy sailors can move over to keel boats when they retire their athlete cards! We also have plenty of high profile Keel boat events world wide.... I think Olympic sailing should focus on dinghies and once every 4 years the public will pay a bit of attention when wrapped up in your countries flag.

Quote
Do the Olympics dictate that events be male/female/mixed with no opportunity for "open"?


The IOC wants gender balance in opportunity when it's appropriate. They view the history of OPEN events in most sports as a failure. It is a flim flam because it never gets close to 50 50. In sailing, the equipment choices for multihulls has made open tilt almost completely to men.

Since men will have greater upper body mass and this is a huge factor in righting moment (especially in dinghys). The argument is... that no matter what equipment you choose.. Men will have an advantage and the field will never = 50 50.

I am not sure this model is definitive in multihulls though.
....If you make multi's Open this would be the debate at a trials. I have never heard of an analysis of the top multi teams where height and mass distribution of the teams was viewed as a critical factor in victory. (unlike in dinghies) So, total mass is important and the Olympics quickly finds the boats optimum weight plus or minus a 20 lb range. An equipment choice could be found that makes open ... close to 50 50 where mass distribution and strength should be equalized. The stated and hidden objectives for the multi trials will be critical.

The real issue for multihull gender participation is just how few women get into the sport as helm's. We don't have a feeder program and it kills us. Final Point. Years ago, they interviewed Olympic women sailors and it turns out a HUGE factor is managing the boat on the beach. Humping a 400 lb 20 foot boat up the ramp for two women is just hard. 470's and 29ners are about as much weight as you could manage.
The only multihull that women teams can manage on the beach is the Hobie 16 and that gives us the sailing scene we have world wide today. (Very few women drivers in multihulls world wide)

Lets hope for OPEN multihulls and then worry about equipment.




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232002
05/05/11 06:06 PM
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Quote

The only multihull that women teams can manage on the beach is the Hobie 16 and that gives us the sailing scene we have world wide today. (Very few women drivers in multihulls world wide)



In that case they can also handle a 110 kg F16 I guess.


Wouter Hijink
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Wouter] #232010
05/06/11 04:17 AM
05/06/11 04:17 AM
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Latest news from the ISAF meeting in St Petersburg... via Bundy's Twitter...

"ISAF Executive Committee recommendations are out. Supporting Star, mixed Multi, 2x470 but No Skiff!! Holly ****!"

It looks like the vote will be held tomorrow as the following was posted on the ISAF Twitter.

"Events for 2016 will be decided at #ISAF Council tomorrow but decisions on core events for 2020 will be made in November"

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: mbounds] #232011
05/06/11 05:55 AM
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Yes i have but i thought they were just out for a fun sail,

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Devon] #232013
05/06/11 07:25 AM
05/06/11 07:25 AM
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Amazing how much clout the Star class has.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Helen (AHPC)] #232014
05/06/11 07:34 AM
05/06/11 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Helen (AHPC)
Latest news from the ISAF meeting in St Petersburg... via Bundy's Twitter...

"ISAF Executive Committee recommendations are out. Supporting Star, mixed Multi, 2x470 but No Skiff!! Holly ****!"

It looks like the vote will be held tomorrow as the following was posted on the ISAF Twitter.

"Events for 2016 will be decided at #ISAF Council tomorrow but decisions on core events for 2020 will be made in November"


I can't watch anymore.


Jake Kohl
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232015
05/06/11 08:03 AM
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Schneider, you said:
"The only multihull that women teams can manage on the beach is the Hobie 16 and that gives us the sailing scene we have world wide today. (Very few women drivers in multihulls world wide)"


Fvck YOU, you ignorant slut. I've been lurking this forum and reading your posts, and you really have no clue on so very many levels.

BTW I have no problem managing my 1982 NACRA 18 Square on the beach, that is, by myself. And you should really know the more modern cats weigh less than the H16. Boat weight ain't the reason. It's all about PROMOTION, something you ought to go learn about.

and it's frickin' spelled "LOSE"... FFS you ought to know how that's spelled. Do you ever actually GO sailing?

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: tami] #232018
05/06/11 08:49 AM
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You GO Girl!

I want to buy her a beer already!


Tami you are welcome to borrow my boat any time, and go kick his butt. Should be easy enough, once you get his head out of the way...


Blade F16
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232021
05/06/11 09:15 AM
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Hahah that was awesome. Go Tami.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: ThunderMuffin] #232026
05/06/11 11:04 AM
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At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum...

Keelboats will never die. If you think otherwise, you are only fooling yourself...

ISAF will stoop to any level needed, including using the paralympics as the reason.

I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying that the paralympics shouldn't use keelboats, but that should not be the justification for able-bodied athletes to use them.

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: brucat] #232028
05/06/11 12:29 PM
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The part I've never understood is exaclty what they (The Olympic Classes) are supposed to represent? I've read statements by the OC that said words to the effect that the boats had to be "readily available world wide" or "Affordable by every country" and all kinds of other parameters, but we all know it's really inter-class politics, trying to promote one boat over another.

Obviously it's not a race about going fast. I think that's what confuses a lot of non-sailors. All the boats except the 49'r are pretty old (and slow) designs by any measure, the Star, Finn, Laser, even the 470, are all pretty old designs today, let alone in 2016 or 2020.

BUT...on the other hand, being slow, they are much more demanding tactically. If you get a bad start or on the wrong side of a shift, you are not going to catch the fleet with boatspeed from a lucky puff, like you can in cats or the 49'r. You are still going as slowly as they are, but they are further -up the ladder- as they like to say.


So, obviously the Olympics, if they stay with the old designs, is not about speed. I guess it's about who has the best tactics, which is fine.

Personally, I like to go fast, that's why I left dinghys and keelboats for cats a long time ago. That's also why I hate light air I guess. But if the ISAF wants to keep Olympic Class sailboat racing locked in the 20'th (or 19th) century, I'm sure they will.

I'm just glad the AC guys didn't.


Blade F16
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232029
05/06/11 12:43 PM
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Hi all,

In St Petersburg at ISAF meetings. Will post decision here as soon as it has been decided.

On the iPhone so will post full report in a day or so.

Multihull is on every submission and generally considered untouchable.

Most likely slate by far is the one from the Events committee with no keelboats but you can never discount the Star!

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: tami] #232030
05/06/11 01:23 PM
05/06/11 01:23 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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ah... Love you too honey bun!

But... you ought to pay attention if you want to understand what 's going on... Ignorance is not becoming of you.

ISAF women's committee voted for Keel match racing >> Skiff>> multihull the last time.... (The old wenches just won out again... with Elliot match now replacing younger women on skiffs as of today)

The Multihull council and all other organizations agreed that there was no critical mass of women sailing multihulls world wide in 2010 and so women's mulithull was not an option. It's not that women are excluded... women just DON'T PLAY.
Not only do they not play in multihull... they also don't play on skiffs!

So... with regard to PROMOTION... we have the second most popular adult boat in history.. the Hobie 16... 130,000? or so sold over 40 + years. and fact of life... women DON"T RACE IT in sufficient numbers .. even in the cat friendly EU... How long would you like to wait? Why is this the case?

Smart people... (unlike yourself) asked WHY is this?

Members of the ISAF women's committee made the point (among others) about the boat weight being an issue when the F18 option was brought up years ago. (um... the F18 is the elite cat racing class.... and it's modern!) The sexism charge is just so weak... especially when the central point is made by the WOMEN's ISAF committee! And just to be clear ... weight is probably not the decisive factor, just a significant one.

Fact of life... Women are not choosing to play either skiffs or Multihulls world wide in any great number.

Oh.. and these observations match up to my experience on the water. My last regatta was last weekend.... 40 boats.. F16's, 505's, A class, N20's... 4 women played... no drivers... (So much for Modern boats being the solution). The Hobie 16, 17, 18 Regatta had 30 boats with 2 women drivers on these classic boats So in the Mid Atlantic... 70 boats racing... two women drivers... Spring Fever regatta... 80 boats... 4 women drivers. Tradewinds... 90 boats.. 4 women drivers. Did not notice your name on the results though, But we could add you to the list and come up with oh... 10 women drivers! (That is pretty much the east coast of the USA.) We have ZERO skiffs... male or female jr or senior on the east coast.

Pay attention to the world as it is... your sexism upset is just so 70's.

The reality is that women are not discriminated against... they just don't choose to play high performance sailing in significant numbers..

Oh!... and you might have noticed... your square is a SINGLE HANDED BOAT, now dead and it was sailed mostly in the south east USA.... Keep up.... its the 21st century! This is about the two person Olympic boat for world wide use.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232031
05/06/11 01:59 PM
05/06/11 01:59 PM
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TEAMVMG Offline
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Thanks Paul

Sounds promising....

Let us know all you can


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232036
05/06/11 02:59 PM
05/06/11 02:59 PM
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Northfield Mn
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Originally Posted by Timbo

Obviously the Olympics, if they stay with the old designs, is not about speed. I guess it's about who has the best tactics, which is fine.


I'm down with that. The Olympics at its core is just war games.


Tami- harden up a bit would ya. I don't know you at all but you come across as a real cuntrag with that post. Whether you are or not I don't know.


I'm boatless.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #232037
05/06/11 03:08 PM
05/06/11 03:08 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Oh come on now Karl (or shall we call you...Slim Shady?), you'd smack that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KUfFoix1EU

;^)


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232046
05/07/11 12:57 AM
05/07/11 12:57 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo

...on the other hand, being slow, they are much more demanding tactically. If you get a bad start or on the wrong side of a shift, you are not going to catch the fleet with boatspeed from a lucky puff, like you can in cats or the 49'r. You are still going as slowly as they are, but they are further -up the ladder- as they like to say.


Slow boats benefit more from shifts and fast boats from pressure. The tactics in each case are different, but equaly important.

I'd like to take the opportunity to stress the importance of the Star class for the host of the 2016 games. Sailing won more medals for Brazil than any other sport. Robert Scheidt, Torben Grael and Lars Grael are THE local sailing celebrities and sail in the Star class. They did and will continue to lobby to have the class in Rio for many reasons, from professional interest to sailing development and the country's politics. An olympic hero in home waters would tremendously increase personal and sailing's popularity.


Luiz
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Luiz] #232047
05/07/11 02:42 AM
05/07/11 02:42 AM
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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ISAF discussion at the moment on the disciplines. Vote should be done in about an hour


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232048
05/07/11 03:37 AM
05/07/11 03:37 AM
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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All finished. Proposal from Events Committee is it for 2016. Votes on submissions were:

M05-11 GER 1
M10-11 JAP 19
M12-11 Chmn EC 0
M16-11 BRA 2
M23-11 IRL 1
M29-11 PUR 9
M39-11 NED 5

So 2 boards/kites, 2 x 470s, 2 x Skiffs, 2 x Lasers, Finn, Multihull

That's all from St Petersburg. Gotta dash ... hope I make my plane.

Paul Pascoe

Last edited by Paul Pascoe; 05/07/11 05:25 AM.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232050
05/07/11 06:14 AM
05/07/11 06:14 AM
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uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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TEAMVMG  Offline
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MIXED multihull for certain?


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: TEAMVMG] #232051
05/07/11 07:13 AM
05/07/11 07:13 AM
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Australia
Helen (AHPC) Offline
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Helen (AHPC)  Offline
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Australia
The official ISAF website states:

"The ten events selected by the ISAF Council for the 2016 Olympic Sailing Competition are:

Men's Board or Kiteboard - evaluation
Women's Board or Kiteboard - evaluation
Men's One Person Dinghy - Laser
Women's One Person Dinghy - Laser Radial
Men's 2nd One Person Dinghy - Finn
Men's Skiff - 49er
Women's Skiff - Evaluation
Men's Two Person Dinghy - 470
Women's Two Person Dinghy - 470
Mixed Two Person Multihull - Evaluation"

Check out the full report ISAF NEWS

Guess that makes it pretty official!

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232052
05/07/11 07:14 AM
05/07/11 07:14 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Originally Posted by Paul Pascoe
All finished. Proposal from Events Committee is it for 2016. Votes on submissions were:

M05-11 GER 1
M10-11 JAP 19
M12-11 Chmn EC 0
M16-11 BRA 2
M23-11 IRL 1
M29-11 PUR 9
M39-11 NED 5

So 2 boards/kites, 2 x 470s, 2 x Skiffs, 2 x Lasers, Finn, Multihull

That's all from St Petersburg. Gotta dash ... hope I make my plane.

Paul Pascoe



Thanks for the updates Paul, I hope you made your flight! BTW, when you get home and have time, what do those numbers represent? Are those the numbers of votes in favor of the Multihull?


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232053
05/07/11 07:21 AM
05/07/11 07:21 AM
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Australia
Helen (AHPC) Offline
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Helen (AHPC)  Offline
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Australia
The code (egs MO5-11) is the submission number. A full description of each submission can be found on the ISAF website. This link should work ISAF submissions for 2011 mid year meeting

But each of the 7 submissions listed by Paul had the Catamaran listed in at least one event. Submission M39-11 had it listed as 2 events - Women & Men.

Cheers
Helen

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Helen (AHPC)] #232054
05/07/11 07:23 AM
05/07/11 07:23 AM
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pgp Offline
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laugh So, which cat is going to the Olympics?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: pgp] #232057
05/07/11 08:25 AM
05/07/11 08:25 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Thanks Helen. And Pete, I think they have yet to decide exactly which cat it will be. I'm just glad there is one included.


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232060
05/07/11 09:01 AM
05/07/11 09:01 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Now this is a challenge for the USA.

Of the 10 Olympic events Our US clubs prepare young sailors for 5 of them. ... Lasers, 470s, and Finns.

The remaining 5... Boards/Kites, Skiffs and Multihulls..... not so much.

The medal prospects just took a hit...without Keel boats in the mix. Dean Brenner or his successor will really need to pull a miracle out of the bag now. This will really test Brenner's model that he can get a medal contender by converting a sailor... into a skiff or multi sailor.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232061
05/07/11 10:42 AM
05/07/11 10:42 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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OR..he could just pick up the phone, call Pete Melvin and ask him if he'd like to "Represent" and go get a medal on a cat.

Oh, and Pete, BTW, first you have to design it...

;^)


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232064
05/07/11 11:33 AM
05/07/11 11:33 AM
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brucat Offline
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NOW I am surprised, in shock, actually... I can't believe there will be no keelboat. Wow, this is the first thing ISAF has done that has actually surprised me.

Let's see how long it takes for this to be changed...

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: brucat] #232066
05/07/11 01:22 PM
05/07/11 01:22 PM
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Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
NOW I am surprised, in shock, actually... I can't believe there will be no keelboat. Wow, this is the first thing ISAF has done that has actually surprised me.

Let's see how long it takes for this to be changed...

Mike


ISAF didn't really have much option but to drop the keelboat - they've been warned on several occasions by the IOC that the infrastructure requirements for the keelboat versus the public appeal can't be justified. On at least one paper they were warned that if they persisted with a lead slug they risked the future of sailing being in the olympics. They really pushed it as far as they dared though.....


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: pgp] #232067
05/07/11 01:46 PM
05/07/11 01:46 PM
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catandahalf Offline
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I understand Performance is developing a NACRA Formula 16. Maybe that's a positive omen:-) US3 is racing to Pensacola Sea Buoy against NACRA 20s and the new NACRA Formula 20 C as I type (26 miler in open water and swells).

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: brucat] #232068
05/07/11 03:45 PM
05/07/11 03:45 PM
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Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat

I can't believe there will be no keelboat. Wow, this is the first thing ISAF has done that has actually surprised me. Let's see how long it takes for this to be changed...


Other important changes are necessary. If the new AC race courses and rules succeed, fast boats will remain and slow boats will have to go. It won't be finished until we have the windsurfer, kite, moth, 49er and multihull (or a variation of this) for both genders.


Luiz
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Luiz] #232075
05/08/11 12:39 AM
05/08/11 12:39 AM
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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All,

Made my plane OK thanks, but still on the way home. In Hong Kong but have posted a full report on the meeting from a multihull perspective if you want something to put you to sleep.

http://tinyurl.com/2016multihull

Even if take my multihull hat off, I don't think that it is a bad slate of events. There is obviously some duplication of double handers and the Laser/Finn but I think most people see this as a transation until more countries build up their skiff fleets. Event at my little patch at home, the kids coming out of Optimists and Sabots prefer to sail a 29er to a 420. It will happen, but at the moment, there are too many countries that own boats, have hired coaches, setup junior programs etc, based on the 420/470 and people voted to retain this investment.

Generally ISAF only changes one or two classes per year, so you can never expect wholesale changes - it is just too expensive and disruptive.

And while it is unfortunate when any class is removed, the keelboats in the Olympics are not the sort of keelboat that most people sail on a Saturday afternoon. So when someone says "most people sail keelboats and therefore should be represented at the Olympics", the keelboats in the Olympics are not your normal Saturday afternoon keelboats - with respect they are more like dinghies with a piece of lead attached to the bottom (that comment should get the comments flowing ...).

Off to check-in.

Paul

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Luiz] #232076
05/08/11 12:39 AM
05/08/11 12:39 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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The Tornado and F18 is far from too big, heavy, loads too high for Olympic mixed or all female crew (We are talking about athletic women / men). Both classes both have mixed and all women crews currently racing at both club and International level. There are a lot of female sailors out there who would handle the boats comfortably, not only currently sailing multies but from other classes such as 470s, Lasers, RSX etc. Could see a few cross into Multi sailing.

I would like to see a OD boat such as a Viper as the next Olympic boat but would be just as happy with the Tornado.
Personally I would not like to see an F18 or F16 class chosen. I believe the Viper is far enough outside the F16 rules though and can stand alone as an OD class enough to warrant it for Olympic selection. Boat has similar performance to an F18 however the loads are a little lighter, boat is lighter, 125kg for sloop, several thousand $$$ cheaper. Its ideal crew weight is a little lighter also, somewhere between 120kg to 140kg combined. More suited to mix or all female crew than the F18 is. The Tornado also suited to lower crew weights than the F18. About 140kg being ideal.

I believe the Viper would be an ideal choice for mixed crew for 2016. As more females become involved at an Olympic level, then this could warrant male and female classes for 2020 with the Viper for women and the Tornado (M20 or Narca's new F20) for male.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232078
05/08/11 08:19 AM
05/08/11 08:19 AM
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Bloomington, IN
jbecker Offline
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Has anybody been paying attention to how many F-18 races Mischa Heemskerk and Carrie Howe have won together? They've sailed and won other events beside the North American F18s, including some distance events.

[Linked Image]

Winners North Americans Formula 18

"Winners North Americans Formula 18!
Saturday, 14 August 2010 16:07
Carrie Howe & I won the event for the 3rd time now as a team."


Jeff
Tiger 849
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232080
05/08/11 09:19 AM
05/08/11 09:19 AM
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Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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The closing words of this article in Sail World are a good summary:

Quote
The Star class has twice before been dropped from the Olympics. On the first occasion, its replacement, the Tempest lasted just two Olympics before the class, which dates back 1911, made it back into the Olympic regatta.

On the second occasion, its demise was only temporary as the class old boy network was able to obtain an 11th medal for itself, as a temporary measure, and then survived the cut to 10 Olympic events.

Few would discount this happening again with Brazil hosting the 2016 Olympics and also being the most successful nation in Star class competition in recent years.

In the end, this vote also determined a major change in the Olympic regatta, and sport. The day will be remembered as the moment when the self-interest and old-boy politics took a body blow in the ISAF, and the Council revolt will extend beyond the 7th day of May 2011.



He is right. The Brazilian Olympic Commitee will probably ask the IOC an extra medal for the Star, they may be in position to negotiate it for anything the IOC needs for the 2016 games.

Their motivation is obvious: if the competition is eliminated that gives the country its best shot at a gold medal and where three of its most famous athletes compete, public opinion and mood about the Olympics will turn negative, which could harm the entire event. Rio's population is known for expressing their opinions openly, mostly through jokes, but also more agressively. A paralel can be made with the last Pan Am games, when trash was thrown at the officials/authorities after the local Hobie 16 was disqualified.

However, this is not a sailing or ISAF issue anymore. If the Star finds its way into the 2016 games it will be as an imposed exception. The relevant fact is that ISAF is changing course and we can hope for more positive changes in the future. Congratulations to all who worked so hard to achieve this!


Luiz
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232082
05/08/11 10:36 AM
05/08/11 10:36 AM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Quote
but I think most people see this as a transation until more countries build up their skiff fleets. Event at my little patch at home, the kids coming out of Optimists and Sabots prefer to sail a 29er to a 420. It will happen, but at the moment, there are too many countries that own boats, have hired coaches, setup junior programs etc, based on the 420/470 and people voted to retain this investment.


Transition??
This is the ultimate... build it... they will come program. ... With the happy outcome that many countries optimized their medal prospects at the expense of others.

Reality check time. Build up Skiff Fleets ????.... HOW COME YOU HAVE TO BUILD???...they are not like Moths after all. The 49ner has been Olympic for 12 years. going on 20

Fact of life. the interest in High Performance Sailing (Skiffs or Cats) is not not some enormous wave sweeping the youth sailors and the sailing leadership of the world.

You have to get people interested before you can build.

We would be thrilled to get 20 teams to US Hobie 16 Junior Nationals. We have petitions not competitions for the US Sailing Junior Championships for the 20 spots. Kids are not beating the doors down for skiffs either. In the Mid Atlantic, One well funded Club bought 6 29ners... used them for 2 months... then mothballed them. So much for kids demanding skiffs. There is no skiff sailing on the east coast.... When do we expect skiff sailing to catch on?

Why worry? The danger is that the Olympics become further removed from the sport and simply loose support. How many US Sailors care? In the US... we don't pay for the Olympics through US Sailing... in other countries... they do pay through their MNA If you don't have a financial interest... do you really care? Even more worrisome, 1f you make the Olympics alien to your experience and irrelevant to the Rank and File experience then how long do you support them?

So, beyond choosing boats that few sailors ever see... much less sail (49ner... Elliot 6) Now they want to fundamentally change the competition. There are no MIXED events in the world that normal sailors compete in. There are no Mixed events that the elite sailors compete in. OPEN events.. yes.... Is this important... Well, in the past when the US sent a MIXED TEAM to the ISAF world championships... they were sent home.... WRONG CHROMOSOMES! .... How different can you make this game and still have relevance to the real world. So, instead of ANY chromosomes... Now you must have the RIGHT mix of chromosomes to play.

If it was difficult to build a multihull junior program before... Now what? For every boy who wants to sail... you must find a girl? Is every thing OPEN until you get the national level or the adult level and then you play musical chairs and create Mixed teams?? ...Now that's a new spin on who gets the girl!

From a US perspective, this ISAF call is a terrible result. Anybody plan on giving money to support the Olympic effort of the mixed mulithull teams that will be forming? Did you give bucks to the Tornado teams in the past? Plan to rejoin US sailing now that we have MIXED Multihulls?

You could understand ISAF and the MNA's spinning this as TRANSITION only if you were clear on the goal. What the hell is the goal? Obviously we abandoned Keel boats this time... If that was the IOC mandate... Why was it such a surprise outcome on the last day of the selections?

Why even discuss 5 disciplines when you must eliminate one of them, and bastardize the other one?

The 5 disciplines. (Boards, Single, Keel, Multi, Skiff) male and female was simple, clear and connected to the boats of the rank and file sailors. What's the direction now?

About the only thing that was clear from the quadrennial FUBAR was that because of the America's Cup action now on Multihulls... All of the MNA's were shamed into fixing their past mistake. All options included a multihull choice.

Ok, principals be damned... we got an event back. BUT, The ramifications of MIXED will be far reaching. So why stop now. We can make the 5 rings into even more of a circus... Lets pick a hard wing cat which is a baby America's Cup machine.... Yeah... that will be cool!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232086
05/08/11 12:57 PM
05/08/11 12:57 PM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Lets pick a hard wing cat which is a baby America's Cup machine.... Yeah... that will be cool!

Actually would probably be the cheapest option in the long term with sail costs pretty minimal over a long period of time and all Carbon boats standing up to the practice shedule.

Hey whats wrong with mixed crews, we just have never had boats suitable for mixed crews before with the boats available being far to physically demanding for the girls ( F18 ) or to woosey for the boys, the F16's and the Viper seem to fill that gap pretty well.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232092
05/08/11 07:40 PM
05/08/11 07:40 PM
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catandahalf Offline
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Check the results for Spring Fever. The top three finishers in the Formula 16 Class were Emily and Nigel Pitt, Millie and Bert Rice Jr., and Riley and Matt McDonald on the new Falcon F - 16. Check out www.gulfsailing.com for the results of the PBYC Sea Buoy Race yesterday. Chris Amador won the day. Bert & Millie were fifth behind Captain KirK on "Catitude," his new shiny NACRA Formula 20 C. They'll get it tuned like a violin in short time.

Mark, contact me via private e. We need to talk soon. You have not been sailing in the South (GYA) so be aware. There is more to the picture than meets your eye. Let's say: deep - six the negativity!!!

I'll change this thread after dinner if LJ does not beat me to it.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232094
05/08/11 09:13 PM
05/08/11 09:13 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Hard wings will NOT be the cheapest option. The cost of the wing vs. sails may be similar given the typical Olympic sail replacement schedule, but transportation of the wing is very expensive compared to a typical rig, storage is a problem, and if you damage it (likely) repair costs are likely higher than soft sails.

I would love to see wings in the Olympics but until it becomes feasible for the boat (A-Cat and Moth for example) its just going to drive the cost higher than that of campaigning a Star.

One of the biggest things the Tornado had going for it were the relatively low campaign costs. The quality of the boat (thanks Marstrom) was high enough that the same boat could be used for a solid 4 years of campaigning. Sails were on a 3-6 month replacement schedule versus an every regatta replacement schedule for the other Olympic classes. These two things kept the Tornado one of, if not the cheapest boat to campaign (yes, it was cheaper than the Laser).


Scorpion F18
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: samc99us] #232101
05/09/11 06:28 AM
05/09/11 06:28 AM
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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The AC guys have put forward a concept for the Olympics. 20 foot, wing mast - what a machine. Pics on sail-world somewhere.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232106
05/09/11 07:26 AM
05/09/11 07:26 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Logistics of shipping a wing around in containers will be $$$$. Would imagine you would need to take spares also.


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232124
05/09/11 11:53 AM
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I'm not saying that wings would save money, but there are probably only a very few (I would say literally a handful of) people on this forum that know how expensive it is to keep up with sail costs for typical Olympic classes (Tornado excluded).

When I first met Bob Merrick, he told me that sails (especially jibs) were only good for one regatta. This was shortly after he won Silver in AUS.

Being the (relatively) cheap H16 sailor that I am, I was totally unable to process this thought, but apparently it has (at least perceived) merit.

BTW, Mark, please try to keep your rants to 4 paragraphs or fewer, you lose me (quickly) after that...

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Luiz] #232127
05/09/11 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Luiz
The closing words of this article in Sail World are a good summary:

Quote
The Star class has twice before been dropped from the Olympics. On the first occasion, its replacement, the Tempest lasted just two Olympics before the class, which dates back 1911, made it back into the Olympic regatta.

On the second occasion, its demise was only temporary as the class old boy network was able to obtain an 11th medal for itself, as a temporary measure, and then survived the cut to 10 Olympic events.

Few would discount this happening again with Brazil hosting the 2016 Olympics and also being the most successful nation in Star class competition in recent years.

In the end, this vote also determined a major change in the Olympic regatta, and sport. The day will be remembered as the moment when the self-interest and old-boy politics took a body blow in the ISAF, and the Council revolt will extend beyond the 7th day of May 2011.



He is right. The Brazilian Olympic Commitee will probably ask the IOC an extra medal for the Star, they may be in position to negotiate it for anything the IOC needs for the 2016 games.

Their motivation is obvious: if the competition is eliminated that gives the country its best shot at a gold medal and where three of its most famous athletes compete, public opinion and mood about the Olympics will turn negative, which could harm the entire event. Rio's population is known for expressing their opinions openly, mostly through jokes, but also more agressively. A paralel can be made with the last Pan Am games, when trash was thrown at the officials/authorities after the local Hobie 16 was disqualified.

However, this is not a sailing or ISAF issue anymore. If the Star finds its way into the 2016 games it will be as an imposed exception. The relevant fact is that ISAF is changing course and we can hope for more positive changes in the future. Congratulations to all who worked so hard to achieve this!


We may all be being duped...

ISAF may have been playing this ace-in-the-sleeve, knowing that there is an outstanding possibility that this could happen (and I'd be more than shocked if it wasn't being orchestrated already).

It's win-win for ISAF. They get to appear to have changed, and still get an outstanding shot to retain the keelboats (keep in mind, they will presumably still need to discuss building infrastructure and classes for Paralympics).

Politics at this level is far worse than sausage-making...

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232129
05/09/11 01:19 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Quote


Registered: 04/10/03
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Loc: Melbourne, Australia
The Tornado and F18 is far from too big, heavy, loads too high for Olympic mixed or all female crew (We are talking about athletic women / men). Both classes both have mixed and all women crews currently racing at both club and International level. There are a lot of female sailors out there who would handle the boats comfortably, not only currently sailing multies but from other classes such as 470s, Lasers, RSX etc. Could see a few cross into Multi sailing.

I would like to see a OD boat such as a Viper as the next Olympic boat but would be just as happy with the Tornado.




Well for the TV/video... you really like big.... Therefore, I would bet on the One Design Tornado or another 20 footer with the rig scaled back a bit to win out in the end.

You need a step up program... if, the junior step up boat is something like an F16/SL16/Viper/Dragoon then you usually need something bigger for the adults (room in the boat at least)

You can also sell the notion... same platform... different rig for men/women if you get two mulit's down the road.... (begging the question... how do you kill off the Finns. )

The Tornado platform regulations are set... the loop holes have been closed (mast issues) (sail issues) and the equipment proven to hold up for a couple of cycles.

Another strategy...Pick a 16 footer for mixed...spec small sails for juniors... Long term.. Plan on replacing the Finn.. with a Single Handed Multihull with spin for men and keep the 16 footer for women.


Paul Pascoe asked a great question... Why was the Tornado not accepted world wide for the previous 20 years? Expanding on that question... Look at the F18 Worlds... even fewer countries represented.... Even the Hobie 16 has fewer countries represented these days. Make no mistake... the AC cup brought the multi back ... However, the underlying problem of participation in multihulls world wide exists. Now add the need to get women campaigning on two High performance boats (skiffs and mixed multis) ... the challenge is not trivial.

4 years ago.... the request to the rank and file was... show up at worlds and other international events AND expand the sport to the next tier of countries... OK...we lucked out with the AC ... Now we need a strategy to grow the sport world wide...Increase the number of women, grow the sport at the youth level world wide AND MAKE GOOD TV.
Now that is a challenge1



Last edited by Mark Schneider; 05/09/11 01:20 PM.

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232130
05/09/11 01:40 PM
05/09/11 01:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

Plan on replacing the Finn.. with a Single Handed Multihull with spin for men...

Yes! That would be very cool.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: brucat] #232136
05/09/11 06:14 PM
05/09/11 06:14 PM
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Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Luiz
The closing words of this article in Sail World are a good summary:

Quote
The Star class has twice before been dropped from the Olympics. On the first occasion, its replacement, the Tempest lasted just two Olympics before the class, which dates back 1911, made it back into the Olympic regatta.

On the second occasion, its demise was only temporary as the class old boy network was able to obtain an 11th medal for itself, as a temporary measure, and then survived the cut to 10 Olympic events.

Few would discount this happening again with Brazil hosting the 2016 Olympics and also being the most successful nation in Star class competition in recent years.

In the end, this vote also determined a major change in the Olympic regatta, and sport. The day will be remembered as the moment when the self-interest and old-boy politics took a body blow in the ISAF, and the Council revolt will extend beyond the 7th day of May 2011.



He is right. The Brazilian Olympic Commitee will probably ask the IOC an extra medal for the Star, they may be in position to negotiate it for anything the IOC needs for the 2016 games.

Their motivation is obvious: if the competition is eliminated that gives the country its best shot at a gold medal and where three of its most famous athletes compete, public opinion and mood about the Olympics will turn negative, which could harm the entire event. Rio's population is known for expressing their opinions openly, mostly through jokes, but also more agressively. A paralel can be made with the last Pan Am games, when trash was thrown at the officials/authorities after the local Hobie 16 was disqualified.

However, this is not a sailing or ISAF issue anymore. If the Star finds its way into the 2016 games it will be as an imposed exception. The relevant fact is that ISAF is changing course and we can hope for more positive changes in the future. Congratulations to all who worked so hard to achieve this!


We may all be being duped...

ISAF may have been playing this ace-in-the-sleeve, knowing that there is an outstanding possibility that this could happen (and I'd be more than shocked if it wasn't being orchestrated already).

It's win-win for ISAF. They get to appear to have changed, and still get an outstanding shot to retain the keelboats (keep in mind, they will presumably still need to discuss building infrastructure and classes for Paralympics).

Politics at this level is far worse than sausage-making...

Mike


Someone commented in another discussion forum that the host country is allowed to choose one extra competition for the games. Is this true?


Luiz
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232139
05/09/11 07:08 PM
05/09/11 07:08 PM
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Actually, the fixed wing concept would mean the sheeting strength differences between men/women would not be much of a factor...hard wings don't need all the muscle power.


Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Lets pick a hard wing cat which is a baby America's Cup machine.... Yeah... that will be cool!

Actually would probably be the cheapest option in the long term with sail costs pretty minimal over a long period of time and all Carbon boats standing up to the practice shedule.

Hey whats wrong with mixed crews, we just have never had boats suitable for mixed crews before with the boats available being far to physically demanding for the girls ( F18 ) or to woosey for the boys, the F16's and the Viper seem to fill that gap pretty well.


Mike Dobbs
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado] #232140
05/09/11 07:11 PM
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Class selection will likely come down to who has the most tight class rules, construction standards, longevity.
The T with its proven history in these area makes it a strong candidate.


Mike Dobbs
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado] #232146
05/09/11 11:32 PM
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Luiz,

The host country got to choose one class in a couple of Olympics immediately after the Second World War (UK Firefly, AUS Sharpie), but I think that '56 may have been the last time this was the case.

Paul

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232148
05/10/11 01:04 AM
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Paul
That said, do you think that brazil will get the chance of an extra event this time?
There doesn't seem to have been the same sort of reaction to this decision as there was when the Multihull got dropped


Paul

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: TEAMVMG] #232151
05/10/11 04:23 AM
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Why do we get all so luv eyed with the Tornado, I know its the proven champion but as with all champions at some stage they are going to get beaten and surpassed, heres our chance to introduce a new kid on the block that we can all aspire to over the next 20 years.

An over weight F16 ( unfortunately we cannot deal with the handicap issues of light boats in the short term due to the organising committees not wanting to upset too many other established classes ) with banana boards, has all the street cred ( good looks ), soft handicap to win handicap races, with lots of toys to play with and if we were really brave, a hard wing as without doubt they will be with us more and more in the short term ( forget the transport issue, you still have to move 16ft boats and long masts so just adding a bit of width to the mast is not going to create many more problems, the moths already have worked out the issues on their masts ).

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232152
05/10/11 04:43 AM
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the sharpie was the international "12 square meter" or heavyweight sharpie 230 kg (510 lb). It is NOT the Au "lightweight" sharpie 90 kg (198 lb). Similar hull shape but a hundred kgs different in weight. North Hemisphere types always love their heavy boats. The other is the heavy weigh was clinker while the "need for speed" Addison brothers in Western Australia used ply, as was common in post war Aussie and kiwi boat building.

I the rig is also different with the lightweight having a modern sloop rig and heavyweight using a gaff rig. But who invited the 12 meter sharpie to the Olympics I dont know.

Last edited by Stewart; 05/10/11 05:24 AM.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232153
05/10/11 05:10 AM
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I know overweight is a comfort factor for north hemisphere types but why?
The boat you describe is NOT an F16!!

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Stewart] #232154
05/10/11 05:42 AM
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232155
05/10/11 05:52 AM
05/10/11 05:52 AM

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I'm a huge fan of the F16, but for the Olympics I think an 18-20 foot boat is going to have more TV appeal.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232158
05/10/11 07:10 AM
05/10/11 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Why do we get all so luv eyed with the Tornado, I know its the proven champion but as with all champions at some stage they are going to get beaten and surpassed, heres our chance to introduce a new kid on the block that we can all aspire to over the next 20 years.

An over weight F16 ( unfortunately we cannot deal with the handicap issues of light boats in the short term due to the organising committees not wanting to upset too many other established classes ) with banana boards, has all the street cred ( good looks ), soft handicap to win handicap races, with lots of toys to play with and if we were really brave, a hard wing as without doubt they will be with us more and more in the short term ( forget the transport issue, you still have to move 16ft boats and long masts so just adding a bit of width to the mast is not going to create many more problems, the moths already have worked out the issues on their masts ).


Those of us that were lucky enough to sail a Tornado in anger understand the fuss! It was a truly awesome boat and perfectly suited to the rigours of Olympic level campaigning.

It was big and powerful and was the undisputed king at all the Olympic class events. We need the new boat to be at least as awesome as the Tornado and to achieve that we need to first get the size right and 18ft is the minimum for such a task.

If you want as you say, something "we can all aspire to over the next 20 years" then you need a boat that excites both the sailors and the spectators. It needs to have an edginess to it and should be a challenge to sail well. Remember: the Olympics is for Athletes and as such we should expect the boat to be a challenge to sail. Example the 49er: Not really suited for club sailing but it is great to watch Olympic level teams sailing them to the best of their ability.

A little boat that encourages super light crew weights is not in line with any of the above criteria.

Its really perfect to fit in the Youth boat slot which is poorly served right now, and for sure an area that needs attention as much as the Olympic boat.

If I was looking for an area to promote a 16ft boat then I would be pushing the Youth path with vigour.



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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Stewart] #232160
05/10/11 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Stewart
I know overweight is a comfort factor for north hemisphere types but why


Sadly the legacy of the handicap sytems we use such as SCHRS which punishes anything that is light weight, one has to only look at the A Class and F18's, at the moment the A gives time to the F18's similarly the Uni F16's still give time to the F18's.

Any Olympic contender in my opinion should toss the known values out and build from scratch with the recent knowledge gained from the AC and the likes.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232161
05/10/11 08:30 AM
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They should use a 25' version of the new AC cats

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232163
05/10/11 08:58 AM
05/10/11 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by macca

Remember: the Olympics is for Athletes and as such we should expect the boat to be a challenge to sail.



Wish I could believe that statement. But past history shows ISAF has rarely used this principle. The Contender in its original form if I recall was a successor to the Finn. The design won the regatta but didn't get the slot. To add insult to injury the original Contender was about (36 Kg) 80 lbs lighter than the minimum weight imposed on the class by the I.Y.R.U. when the boat was given International status. Don't select and make it heavier and slower. Ben/bob designed built a serious light weight athletes boat.

Still maybe they will get closer to the "ideal"
As for the 49er it was the best boat in the regatta but it was monkeys ability to politic that got it the gig.

Last edited by Stewart; 05/10/11 09:18 AM.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232173
05/10/11 11:28 AM
05/10/11 11:28 AM
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Macca

Quote
Example the 49er: Not really suited for club sailing but it is great to watch Olympic level teams sailing them to the best of their ability.


What kind of mere mortal sailing fleet does the 49ner represent in the world?

Who exactly is supposed to have some sort of affinity for the 49ner sailors and their boats? I bet the majority of US multihull sailors could not ID a single 49ner sailor from the USA. We have no relation to them. We don't see them on the water or beach, they don't cross sail our boats and vice versa. .... it's just a different world and we don't care. The 49ner is the vanguard for the X games version of sailing... IE unreal events disconnected from the sport that most of us compete in.

So... you want an edgy boat.
I think if you polled the world about the Tornado... the word ClASSIC would most likely come up.

It's a real choose the path moment here... do you want boats in the olympics that the rank and file relate to.... OR do you want an extreme version of the sport embodied in a maxed out boat. As you say... suitable for the spectators,

Personally, I think "spectators" is fools gold...
I ask... if you have to invent extreme variations for the Olympics to survive... why should we support them at all. and Somebody is paying for this show.

I view Pinnacle of the Sport to mean... the competition is reflective of the real world internationally. Moth's are cool... but 100 of them world wide is not Olympic.. Who do they represent?

Tornado's were not extreme when compared to F18's.... Just more refined and elegant after years of invention and tweaking. I see the step up from F18's to Tornado's as natural.

My hunch is... the IOC will not want extreme... they are going to want to see LOTS OF NEW COUNTRIES getting into the game.... I doubt Extreme works for the little sailing countries. (See 470 still in olympics)

I think the path we are now on.... will further dissociate the Olympics from the real world....




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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232177
05/10/11 01:01 PM
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Mmm, we have 49er at our club. 5 of them. They race all year. There are a bunch of other skiffs like Musto skiffs and RS600. We are also the home port for australians 18 in the UK, 4 of them in the parking lot... We do sail with those guys.

I don't see those boats "disconnected from the sport", on the contrary: I see them as what the sport is all about.

On the other hand there is no 470 here. Zero, nada. For me a 470 is a relic of another age, a good fun boat, but not representative of the sport. No Finn either.

My ideal olympic cat would be a one design double trap 18 footer with a wing and a gennaker. But a Tornado will do.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: pepin] #232187
05/10/11 04:33 PM
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470 is in just about the same boat as Stars, as far as I can tell. Seems like no one sails them unless they're thinking about the Olympics.

I personally don't see the Olympics as the pinnacle of the sport. Like it or not, that gig goes to AC (although the people who think they are "true match racers" don't actually recognize the cat cups).

My proof? An Olympic medal is essentially considered a pre-requisite to get a spot aboard an AC boat. The inverse is not true.

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232189
05/10/11 05:07 PM
05/10/11 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Macca

Quote
Example the 49er: Not really suited for club sailing but it is great to watch Olympic level teams sailing them to the best of their ability.


What kind of mere mortal sailing fleet does the 49ner represent in the world?

Who exactly is supposed to have some sort of affinity for the 49ner sailors and their boats? I bet the majority of US multihull sailors could not ID a single 49ner sailor from the USA. We have no relation to them. We don't see them on the water or beach, they don't cross sail our boats and vice versa. .... it's just a different world and we don't care. The 49ner is the vanguard for the X games version of sailing... IE unreal events disconnected from the sport that most of us compete in.

So... you want an edgy boat.
I think if you polled the world about the Tornado... the word ClASSIC would most likely come up.

It's a real choose the path moment here... do you want boats in the olympics that the rank and file relate to.... OR do you want an extreme version of the sport embodied in a maxed out boat. As you say... suitable for the spectators,

Personally, I think "spectators" is fools gold...
I ask... if you have to invent extreme variations for the Olympics to survive... why should we support them at all. and Somebody is paying for this show.

I view Pinnacle of the Sport to mean... the competition is reflective of the real world internationally. Moth's are cool... but 100 of them world wide is not Olympic.. Who do they represent?

Tornado's were not extreme when compared to F18's.... Just more refined and elegant after years of invention and tweaking. I see the step up from F18's to Tornado's as natural.

My hunch is... the IOC will not want extreme... they are going to want to see LOTS OF NEW COUNTRIES getting into the game.... I doubt Extreme works for the little sailing countries. (See 470 still in olympics)

I think the path we are now on.... will further dissociate the Olympics from the real world....




Spectators are real, and there is proof:

Take the X40's, Round Texel, and even our little team racing event in NED a few weeks ago. We had more than 5000 people watching online and that was with the Sailing Anarchy feed not working..

Spectators are real, all we have to do it translate the excitement of our sport into a format that they can access.

ACRM are working very hard to do that right now and it will be available to us as well.

You dont see normal skiers belting down the mountain at more than 120km/h and you never go for a bike ride on a sunday afternoon on an indoor velodrome in a time trial, I have never cross country skied with a rifle on my back and shot at targets in the forest....

Its a sport and at the very top level we need to make it a challenge, not a carbon copy of what we do every weekend, this is the pinnacle of our sport and it should be suitably challenging.



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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232193
05/10/11 10:07 PM
05/10/11 10:07 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Quote
You dont see normal skiers belting down the mountain at more than 120km/h


True... but you see normal guys going down normal hills on equipment signed by that guy.... Point... is that people relate to the sport of down hill because it's something they do and aspire to do better.

Quote
you never go for a bike ride on a sunday afternoon on an indoor velodrome in a time trial,


And this event is a spectacle. Normal people race their carbon bikes in normal road races.. and aspire to do it like Lance Armstrong... (minus the cheating and the drugs)!

Having dumped the keel boats which normal sailors recognize and relate to... I think the pressure will be on for the new events to be ones that rank and file sailors recognize and will support. In Olympic terms... How many countries compete for the spots.

World wide.. how broad is the support for High Performance Sailing? (2012 has only ONE High performance event 49ners besides boards) We have the same problem now that took out the Tornado in the first place... Few countries choose to play!

Looking at 49ners... It's the same demographic as the Tornado (which was eliminated) or the F18 class currently. Women's skiffs... are equally narrow in their appeal and less popular.

As much as I agree with choosing a boat like the Tornado, which challenges the Olympic sailors (and is spectacular)

Perhaps a boat like the Hobie 16 which is popular world wide (not as spectacular) but would likely get more poor countries competing might be better for ISAF and the high performance sailing. (There are certainly better and higher performance boats then Lasers... but nothing is as simple and popular)

If the two skiffs and boards are the high profile TV stars... maybe the multihull niche is assigned the job of broaden the appeal of High Performance Sailing world wide.

I predict that it will come down to these other factors which are real philosophical choices more so then hardware choices. The politics are just beginning!




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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232194
05/10/11 10:33 PM
05/10/11 10:33 PM
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We can argue the details forever, but the fundamentals are the same.

people go sailing on beach cats every weekend, just as people ski downhill for fun. The difference is in the intention to go to the limit and the suitable equipment to do so.

Don't kid yourself that a set of downhill ski's are the same as you can buy for your weekend fun.

Same goes for the bikes, they are specialised for the level of competition and as such they are suited to Olympic level racing and not so much for a fun joyride.



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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232197
05/10/11 10:55 PM
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Hobie products have been up for consideration in the past. Typically, they are not accepted due to things like lack of build quality standards (significant boat weight differences etc) and durability. These are very important to the athletes and also to the selection committees. If the H16 is to have fighting shot, it must be tightened up significantly in build quality control and component design. This would create a disparity from the mainstream class boats, raise purchase prices and thus negatively affect one of the biggest advantages of the class..the low price point.

Olympics is not about what "Joe-SixPack" sails...it's about pushing the teams & equipement to the max...teams will exploit rule loop-holes and percieved performance advantages in component differences wherever they can. This is way you need a tightly controlled boat class rule & manufacturing spec. Tornado has struggled with this since the beginning, but the history of the class in the games proves my point about what the teams will do.



Mike Dobbs
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232198
05/10/11 10:57 PM
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I get your point about the ideal world.
I agree with Mike as well i
Quote
t's about pushing the teams & equipement to the max.

I agree with both of you on what the ideal world would use. Unfortunately this is just magical or wishful thinking...

The Laser, 470 and Formula boards are NOT specialized fantastic sailing machines... the Star??? Anything extraordinarily about the Elliot??? these are not pushing the equipment to the max!

Wonderful boats and Olympics are not synonymous...
Fact of life... they toss boats like the Tornado and Europe for POS like the Laser and Nothing.

I don't understand Stars... but this is an Olympic Class like the Laser that actually has a race series that I see on the water in my world.

They have thrown out great boats for popular ones before...

How can you go wrong with the public by picking popular?

The IOC is demanding participation world wide.. ... I bet the multihull class being mixed is ISAF's solution to this problem as well.



Last edited by Mark Schneider; 05/10/11 11:02 PM.

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232200
05/11/11 12:29 AM
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I think that we/ISAF need to establish what the Olympic Multihull is meant to be;
Is it a popular boat that is sailed by m&f teams the world over - making the olympics a target for everyone

Or

Is a boat that we all aspire to be good enough to sail even if we are accomplished f18 or tornado pros. It will then be sailed by specialist sailors from various backgrounds specifically trained to get a medal

I think the latter and we are kidding ourselves if we think that we know any existing m/f teams that are going to be in the running


Paul

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232202
05/11/11 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
What kind of mere mortal sailing fleet does the 49ner represent in the world?

Who exactly is supposed to have some sort of affinity for the 49ner sailors and their boats? I bet the majority of US multihull sailors could not ID a single 49ner sailor from the USA. We have no relation to them. We don't see them on the water or beach, they don't cross sail our boats and vice versa. .... it's just a different world and we don't care. The 49ner is the vanguard for the X games version of sailing... IE unreal events disconnected from the sport that most of us compete in.


Should spend some time in AUS mate. 12, 14, 16, 18 skiffs. Plently of hypo monos that compare to or are more extreme than the 49ers........ At club level.

Last edited by Tornado_ALIVE; 05/11/11 02:14 AM.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232204
05/11/11 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Why do we get all so luv eyed with the Tornado, I know its the proven champion but as with all champions at some stage they are going to get beaten and surpassed, heres our chance to introduce a new kid on the block that we can all aspire to over the next 20 years.

An over weight F16 ( unfortunately we cannot deal with the handicap issues of light boats in the short term due to the organising committees not wanting to upset too many other established classes ) with banana boards, has all the street cred ( good looks ), soft handicap to win handicap races, with lots of toys to play with and if we were really brave, a hard wing as without doubt they will be with us more and more in the short term ( forget the transport issue, you still have to move 16ft boats and long masts so just adding a bit of width to the mast is not going to create many more problems, the moths already have worked out the issues on their masts ).


Those of us that were lucky enough to sail a Tornado in anger understand the fuss! It was a truly awesome boat and perfectly suited to the rigours of Olympic level campaigning.

It was big and powerful and was the undisputed king at all the Olympic class events. We need the new boat to be at least as awesome as the Tornado and to achieve that we need to first get the size right and 18ft is the minimum for such a task.

If you want as you say, something "we can all aspire to over the next 20 years" then you need a boat that excites both the sailors and the spectators. It needs to have an edginess to it and should be a challenge to sail well. Remember: the Olympics is for Athletes and as such we should expect the boat to be a challenge to sail. Example the 49er: Not really suited for club sailing but it is great to watch Olympic level teams sailing them to the best of their ability.

A little boat that encourages super light crew weights is not in line with any of the above criteria.

Its really perfect to fit in the Youth boat slot which is poorly served right now, and for sure an area that needs attention as much as the Olympic boat.

If I was looking for an area to promote a 16ft boat then I would be pushing the Youth path with vigour.



Have to agree with you 100% on this, always love jumping back on the T. I would prefer to see the Tornado or another HP 20 footer, however as a mixed, the equiptment will always be a compramise to cater.

If it is an 18 footer, please not the Tiger or any other class that falls in the F18 box rule. Designing a new 18 footer, with 3 sails, curved foils and lighter weight would be a good option (Soft sail)


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232210
05/11/11 08:41 AM
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Paul Pascoe writes:

Quote
So what next?
The immediate task is for the Equipment Committee to come out with a spec for a multihull and a plan for evaluating potential boats. This will include a trial of some type, probably in Europe and most likely in conjunction with the evaluation for the Womens skiff. We need to make sure we get the right boat in the Olympics, and by "right" this means a boat that will not leave us in the same position as we are now, where a fantastic boat was voted out of the Olympics because not enough countries were willing, for whatever reason, to campaign at the Olympics. We need to look at two things:
1. What were the characteristics of the 2008 Tornado that meant that it wasn't embraced around the world, and we need to be brutally honest in this assessment
2. What are the characteristics of the Laser and the 470 that means that they are embraced around the world
We also need to keep in mind the ISAF Youth Worlds and make sure there is a clear stepping stone from the Youth to Olympic boat.


Two Key points... they will evaluate both new classes together.
(People will view these choices as a package... no matter what you say)

Participation is the underlying key factor.

Alive... I could have guessed AUS... given Bethwaite and the country's history with skiffs... But...I can't find participation or growth of skiffs outside the EU and North America. The Brits report that they have lots of little skiff classes but participation has not grown over the last 10 years.

Help me out!

Who has a plausible answer to Paul Pascoe's two issues.

do you say... .the past be damn we are going for the ideal Olympic boat?

Versus do you say... those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it... We are going for a boat certain to be popular world wide?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232213
05/11/11 09:16 AM
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completely agree.. when a kid starts out in a JD , Flying Ant or VJ and gets the bug.. Where is he or she going to go next? A boat twice as big but half the speed or to a boat that is bigger and badder?

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: TEAMVMG] #232214
05/11/11 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Paul
That said, do you think that brazil will get the chance of an extra event this time?
There doesn't seem to have been the same sort of reaction to this decision as there was when the Multihull got dropped


I don't know if they will get the chance, but if they do, I bet they will choose to bring the Star back, regardless the public reation.

If the Star gets an extra medal from the IOC it will not be the first time. It didn't happen due to popular reaction in the past and if it happens now it will be due to political pressure from the organizers of the game. With Robert Scheidt and Torben Grael campaigning in the Star, Brazil's best shot at a medal in the entire 2016 games is if the Stars get an extra medal.


Luiz
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232215
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and the Kiwis as well!!

Last edited by Stewart; 05/11/11 09:19 AM.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Stewart] #232221
05/11/11 12:37 PM
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I would rather not see multihulls in the Olympics at all if it is a choice between a mixed team or not at all. I'm completely baffled by that decision. It does not represent our sport one bit.

While we're at it, let's choose a boat that requires no strength or athleticism on the part of the sailors.

Let's force it so that the Olympic hockey teams are mixed too.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado] #232222
05/11/11 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Tornado
Hobie products have been up for consideration in the past. Typically, they are not accepted due to things like lack of build quality standards (significant boat weight differences etc) and durability. These are very important to the athletes and also to the selection committees. If the H16 is to have fighting shot, it must be tightened up significantly in build quality control and component design. This would create a disparity from the mainstream class boats, raise purchase prices and thus negatively affect one of the biggest advantages of the class..the low price point.


I don't know about all of that for the H16. It's already accepted for the Pan Am games, and has been used for the ISAF Youth Worlds.

The boat has gone through some continuous improvement through the years, which has been widely accepted by the class, especially as durability is improved. I don't know any H16 sailors that would have a problem with the improvements you mention (tightened weight ranges, etc.).

The one issue that IS divisive is spinnakers.

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: oxj] #232223
05/11/11 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by oxj
I would rather not see multihulls in the Olympics at all if it is a choice between a mixed team or not at all.


I believe that horse has already left the barn...

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: oxj] #232229
05/11/11 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by oxj
I would rather not see multihulls in the Olympics at all if it is a choice between a mixed team or not at all. I'm completely baffled by that decision. It does not represent our sport one bit.

While we're at it, let's choose a boat that requires no strength or athleticism on the part of the sailors.

Let's force it so that the Olympic hockey teams are mixed too.


Oh No You Dint!

http://www.unhwildcats.com/sports/wice/index


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232236
05/11/11 07:28 PM
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If we are certain the requirement is for mxed teams on the multi...then I guess I'm wondering why this is not so for some other less physical boat? Heck why not all classes in the games if that's where they are asking the multi to go?



Mike Dobbs
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232239
05/11/11 08:01 PM
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Quote
...by "right" this means a boat that will not leave us in the same position as we are now, where a fantastic boat was voted out of the Olympics because not enough countries were willing, for whatever reason, to campaign at the Olympics.


In actual fact, I don't believe the T was removed because not enough countries canpaigned it..we all know the gory details on how the voting went down...it was accepted once (twice?) before a backroom "deal" was made and 3rd vote took place to drop it. Yes, we can state the boat needs better acceptance globally...but let's not cloud the issue, that is not why it was dropped.

Quote
We need to look at two things:
1. What were the characteristics of the 2008 Tornado that meant that it wasn't embraced around the world, and we need to be brutally honest in this assessment

You're starting with a relatively small slice of sailors (multihullers), then further slicing that to spin boat teams willing to devote time/money to campaigning 200+ days per year x4-8 years. Costs of this were staggering...many non-Euro teams typically kept a second boat kept in Europe for the several key events there while still having one at home for training to avoid shipping and the inherent down time during transit. The reality is you cannot do this on shoestrings...being independantly wealthy or having generous sponsorship is essential.The same should also be true to other Olympic classes...but they start with much larger monhull numbers.
Quote

2. What are the characteristics of the Laser and the 470 that means that they are embraced around the world
We also need to keep in mind the ISAF Youth Worlds and make sure there is a clear stepping stone from the Youth to Olympic boat.

Both boats are essentially entry level, low purchase. Juniors can get into them at local clubs. Parents would consider buying for kids. Any multihull is at a disadvantage in comparison since build costs/storage/portability is higher/more difficult.



Mike Dobbs
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: oxj] #232243
05/11/11 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by oxj
I would rather not see multihulls in the Olympics at all if it is a choice between a mixed team or not at all. I'm completely baffled by that decision. It does not represent our sport one bit.

While we're at it, let's choose a boat that requires no strength or athleticism on the part of the sailors.

Let's force it so that the Olympic hockey teams are mixed too.


I agree. I think every sport should be mixed or none at all. Actually I couldn't care less at this point.





Have Fun
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: catman] #232245
05/12/11 05:10 AM
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Mixed cat sailing in the olympics has just lost me, i no longer care to follow mixed cats and have no interest in a olympic event where the female is the skipper and gets all the recognotion in the elite of the sport, its not about being chauvonistic either..The ISAF have just completely got it wrong again, multihull sailing is not ready for a mixed event as a first re-entry, this will do more harm than good, it will only achieve moderate interest and moderate tv viewers, it will take a decade to revert back to open where the multis have by far the strongest numbers support and interest, how dare the ISAF or any one else posting on this forum even think this is not the case..If the ISAF want to increase viewer numbers and not loose another sailing event then they have chosen the wrong path yet again! There just arent enough mixed teams out there for a reason..They are in a huge minority verses all male teams, high performance cat sailing is an extreme on the edge sport which is far more sutiable/desirable to male than female, i feel mixed olympic cat teams will only elite the AC sailers to represent the pinnacle of cat sailers in the leed up boats from AClass to C20`s to AC45`s and to the AC72`s, this mixed cat teams in the olympics will lower the status of olympic sailers compared to the sailers training and competing to climb the AC ladder, no longer will the olympic mixed sailers qualify to be the pinnacle of the sport, when the pinnacle will be the AC multihull sailers working their way to the top of the event.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Devon] #232246
05/12/11 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Devon
Mixed cat sailing in the olympics has just lost me, i no longer care to follow mixed cats and have no interest in a olympic event where the female is the skipper and gets all the recognotion in the elite of the sport, its not about being chauvonistic either..


Ahh get over it boys, the next multihull in the olympics, for what ever reasons, is going to be a mixed crew.

You seem quite happy to allow boards and kites in womens events and they are physically probably as tough to compete in as multihulls and yet have few active participants in comparison to the active male numbers.

I just don't get the whinging, lets build on what we are goner get and see where it goes.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232248
05/12/11 06:37 AM
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Boards and kites are 1 up not 2 up, you can not use that example in comparism, if the girls want to go up against the guys in kites and boards thats fine may the best sailer win, and i would be happy to watch mixed 1 up /open kites and boards events, sorry i find it hard to get over what the ISAF did to the T and are now repeating the same lucid process, this is not a whinge it is merely pointing out yet again how the ISAF have got it terribly wrong and continue to regress an amazing part of sailing in multihulls, the viewer numbers will be what decides the future multihull events and where it goes, I for one wont be amongst those viewers, but i can think of some great names for their cats .. Mums Taxi / girl power / cat woman

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232249
05/12/11 06:49 AM
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Do men really have an advantage in sailing? Sailors already use a variety of mechanical assists i.e. main sheet blocks so it isn't as though it's truly "man against the sea". Come to think of it only body surfers and swimmers can make that claim.

Looking at female gymnasts and swimmers, in fact the whole gammit of top level female athletes, it seems to me they could compete equally.

Imo, "mixed" is not an issue. As always, talent and preparation will win. But "mixed" could make sailing the first sport to overcome gender bias. Maybe we should promote it that way?


Last edited by pgp; 05/12/11 06:53 AM.

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: pgp] #232250
05/12/11 07:07 AM
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There is no way Women can compete in an equal manner to men, there are occasional exceptions but even at Olympic skill level there is simply no way Women are equal to men.

My Girlfriend is an Olympic medalist and currently on the match racing team for London, she also sails F18 and sometimes the 20's and she is the first one to say that there is a disparity in strengths between men and women. And in top level the power to weight ratio is a big factor in performance potential.

Be that as it may, we have this discipline now and we must make the most of it. So lets focus on the right stuff and make sure we have a good show for 2016!!!

Get out there and sail your catamaran and make people of both sexes see that we have a cool show.


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232251
05/12/11 07:09 AM
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Well said Andrew!


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232253
05/12/11 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by Devon
Mixed cat sailing in the olympics has just lost me, i no longer care to follow mixed cats and have no interest in a olympic event where the female is the skipper and gets all the recognotion in the elite of the sport, its not about being chauvonistic either..


Ahh get over it boys, the next multihull in the olympics, for what ever reasons, is going to be a mixed crew.

You seem quite happy to allow boards and kites in womens events and they are physically probably as tough to compete in as multihulls and yet have few active participants in comparison to the active male numbers.

I just don't get the whinging, lets build on what we are goner get and see where it goes.


Having a mixed Olympic multihull class will probably bring more women into our normal sailing ranks (kinda like boards...I don't see much women supporting board sailing unless it was an Olympic class). Certainly, you guys don't find fault in that?


Jake Kohl
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232255
05/12/11 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by macca
There is no way Women can compete in an equal manner to men, there are occasional exceptions but even at Olympic skill level there is simply no way Women are equal to men.

My Girlfriend is an Olympic medalist and currently on the match racing team for London, she also sails F18 and sometimes the 20's and she is the first one to say that there is a disparity in strengths between men and women. And in top level the power to weight ratio is a big factor in performance potential.

Be that as it may, we have this discipline now and we must make the most of it. So lets focus on the right stuff and make sure we have a good show for 2016!!!

Get out there and sail your catamaran and make people of both sexes see that we have a cool show.


Tell that to some of the swimmers and gymnists! Taking note of your quote: "disparity in strengths", even your girlfriend doesn't say "men are superior and women can't compete".

Imo, this and the AC are the best things to happen to cats in a long time.

FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting Girl's records are down around the middle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurcan_Taylan Somebody needs to teach this girl how to sail!

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Last edited by pgp; 05/12/11 07:53 AM.

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: pgp] #232256
05/12/11 08:03 AM
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Err, my girlfriend is against the mixed discipline.. But as I said, its what we have so lets get on with it.



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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232257
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Originally Posted by macca
Err, my girlfriend is against the mixed discipline.. But as I said, its what we have so lets get on with it.



Its " horses for courses " pick the right boat and the girls will be able to compete on equal terms, blending strength and power ( boys )with finese and guile ( girls ) is a cool move and for all the male TV "switch off" by the male diehards, I'm sure there will be more women "switch on" viewers.

Anyway I want to see a lot more fit girls in the clubhouse, their presence I'm sure would also encourage more younger lads to be there, nothing like a bee to a honeypot.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232258
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I think that what the sport need is the development of trapeze harness in some kind of transparent material. Couple that with mandatory bikinis for the girls on board and we may have some chance to steal some audience from beach volley.

smile

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232259
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Mischa and Carrie seem to do quite well-even in distance stuff, and as an example, I just don't comprehend any argument whereby superior male strength will be overwhelming factor in routine can racing in catamarans...I'd say strength to weight is way more important, and in that sense, those smaller women can be an advantage. Not trying to start a war here, but I don't feel sailing ability is influenced overwhelmingly by testosterone...

Last edited by rexdenton; 05/12/11 09:35 AM.

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: rexdenton] #232276
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Agreed, when coaching youths, I often told boys to sail a bit more like girls and girls to sail a bit more like boys. After a bit of ridicule, they understood what I was driving at and were able to adapt their style a bit.



Paul

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: TEAMVMG] #232282
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Devon, going for post of the year there? Worried about women taking too much credit for skippering? Wow...

If Olympic sailing were all about testosterone, we wouldn't see anyone older than (30?) ever being competitive, in ANY class.

Let's move on, this discussion about mixed is well past done.

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: brucat] #232283
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Originally Posted by brucat

If Olympic sailing were all about testosterone, we wouldn't see anyone older than (30?) ever being competitive, in ANY class.

I resemble that remark... grin


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: rexdenton] #232288
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The last Tornado worlds winner was a mixed crew. And SHE crew. There was also 1 other mixed crew in the top 10.
Great interview at.
http://www.tornado-class.org/news/a...h-nahid-gaebler-tornado-mixed-sailor.htm

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: orphan] #232290
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I don't think anyone has a problem with ALLOWING women to compete. But men being FORCED to team up with women is nonsense at the Olympic level.

Big difference between OPEN and MIXED.

Open is ideal if you don't have separate men's/women's events. There are some very good women sailors in the world. But they do not represent 50% of the top cat sailors.


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: oxj] #232294
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I think I get it now... Part of the problem may be the mixed messages coming from IOC.

They say they want events that represent how the sport is played around the world. But, they want to force gender equity.

Personally, I have no clue what you guys are all in a tizzy about. At all the cat regattas I attend, there are tons of women racing. Of course, that's one of the best parts of Hobie sailing.

At the monohull events that I attend (serving as RC), they are TOTAL sausage-fests, and I'm not talking windward-leeward courses here. Outside of Youth events, you're lucky to see a handful of women all weekend.

Mike

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gotta go with Jake on this one. I think the angle is by having a mixed gender class, it would compel more women to either watch or participate. This is perhaps the largest untapped market segment in many if not all sports, both in talent and disposable income

And I recall several female notables that have challenged the status quo on a few male dominated sports like formula one racing and Singlehanded sailing which had heretofor been considered sports only males could handle...

What are we looking for in Olympic sailing? Athletic ability? brute strength? tactical genius? technological innovation? nice teeth?

If it was just one thing, then you'd only need one class/boat. Having a mixed crew might broaden appeal, blend several different disciplines together, and allow more overall participation

Not only that, but by having a mixed class, it is unlikely that a boat choice would upset formula/box or one-design classes for that very reason...


Jay

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: oxj] #232304
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Mixed is what we have to live with for the next few years so stop whinging, for those of us with Olympic aspirations it just means we've got to find a chick crew/helm.

For me that means a girl as i'm only 55kgs. In my eyes there are plenty of suitable female crews, 420/29er crews could all quite easily move over for people like me just coming out of youth sailing. The Girls are probably less physicaly strong but I think in a well sailed boat this makes little difference, the crew going to the Youth worlds for GBR have a female crew and she is as able as any of the male crews (she deffinatley beat me in a strenght test!)

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: rexdenton] #232317
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Originally Posted by rexdenton
Mischa and Carrie seem to do quite well-even in distance stuff, and as an example, I just don't comprehend any argument whereby superior male strength will be overwhelming factor in routine can racing in catamarans...I'd say strength to weight is way more important, and in that sense, those smaller women can be an advantage. Not trying to start a war here, but I don't feel sailing ability is influenced overwhelmingly by testosterone...


Strength to weight is what its about, and men are always going to have a higher potential strength to weight ratio. Its not something I am making up, its just how it is!

Have a look at the 470 class, its a great example. Men and Women teams have the same weight and in a clear majority of races against each other the men will win. Its not because the men are better at tactics or boat speed, there is nothing at all stopping a womens team doing that just as well as the men. Fact is that even though the 470 is a shitty little boat it is still a physical one for the crew and the men crews have an advantage. The men can pump the rig harder and longer, they can roll tack the boat with more energy, more times. They can hoist the kite faster and trim it with more force, pump on waves harder and more often. All these things you will see in a mixed multihull.

Sure you will still have women crewing, but its not going to be the norm nor the most effective. I have nothing against women crewing and in fact it would be great for me if my girl crewed (i am a **** crew!!) but its simply not the right way to go in this new discipline.


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I'm rather surprised that there are people that see including a mixed team in the multihull as a bad thing.

It's just like any other rule. If you want to win you could change the sail plan or the hull shape of your boat. But you cant because there are rules that govern this. It is the sailor that has to earn the win. Making a rule that means each team has one of each of the sexes means neither team
has an advantage and they still have to earn the win.
50% of the potential multihull market is female yet if the people who say women can never compete against men at an elite level are right then without enforcing a mixed team we don't get females at the top of the sport acting as role models for girls who would like to see themselves in that role someday. That means you effectively alienate 50% of the potential multihull sailors.
It has always amazed me as to how male dominated this sport is. No wonder it is such a small sport. Give the women something at the top of the sport to aspire to and you will bring more of them into the sport and that will probably also bring in more guys. Nothing like a place to meet chicks to bring in fellas.

This is not a big sport. We can't afford to leave 50% of the potential market out in the cold. If we want the sport to grow then this is probably the best thing that could happen to it.

Last edited by phill; 05/14/11 05:23 AM.

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado] #232418
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Originally Posted by Tornado

In actual fact, I don't believe the T was removed because not enough countries canpaigned it..we all know the gory details on how the voting went down...it was accepted once (twice?) before a backroom "deal" was made and 3rd vote took place to drop it. Yes, we can state the boat needs better acceptance globally...but let's not cloud the issue, that is not why it was dropped.

You're starting with a relatively small slice of sailors (multihullers), then further slicing that to spin boat teams willing to devote time/money to campaigning 200+ days per year x4-8 years. Costs of this were staggering...many non-Euro teams typically kept a second boat kept in Europe for the several key events there while still having one at home for training to avoid shipping and the inherent down time during transit. The reality is you cannot do this on shoestrings...being independantly wealthy or having generous sponsorship is essential.The same should also be true to other Olympic classes...but they start with much larger monhull numbers.
Both boats are essentially entry level, low purchase. Juniors can get into them at local clubs. Parents would consider buying for kids. Any multihull is at a disadvantage in comparison since build costs/storage/portability is higher/more difficult.


Mike,
This pretty well sets up what happened. There are a few falicies out there concerning the tornado.
1) It was removed because it was too expensive. It is an expensive boat, but the most expensive boat for 2012 is the Star with the Elliot coming in a close second. While Lasers are much less exspensive for a boat and a rig, to compete at an Olympic level requires many boats and many rigs to do a four year campaign.
2) It was removed because it was not a tightly controlled OD class. The only true OD class in the Olympics is the laser. The 470's and 49'rs are pretty tightly controlled classes but with more room for development than the Laser. I do not know about the Elliot, but believe that is/will be tightly controlled for the one cycle it competes in. Finns and Stars are very open in comparison with hull shape and rigs being in a constant state of flux. Melges, Lillia, Mader, Folli, P-Star in the Star class. Some Flatter with less rocker, some fuller with more rocker, some for light air campaign some for heavy air regattas. But it is the tornado that got the press.

It was politics and back room deals that killed the Tornado in the Olympics. Participation in the Tornado class dropped as the rules for and cost of campaigning increased. At one point you could campaign a Tornado in the US and maybe do an occassional overseas regatta such as the Worlds and still go to the Olympic trials. You had between 70-90 boats at the nationals and 60-80 boats at the trials. The last Olympic trials held in San Diego had five boats. Today you have do most of your campaign traveling around the world. The US has one Schedule 1 event a year and that is the Miami OCR. This change began sometime just before or just after the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta/Savannah. The worldwide ranking system comes in to play in geting an Olympic berth. I have heard that campaigning can run over $250,000 per year. This limits those who can play the game.

Last edited by windswept; 05/14/11 09:44 AM.

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: phill] #232422
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Originally Posted by phill
I'm rather surprised that there are people that see including a mixed team in the multihull as a bad thing.

I don't get it either. The strength argument doesn't cut it for me-sure sailing can be tiring after a day, but apart from the abuse on hands the strength required doesn't even come close to competitive biking, triathlons, or swimming, (or frankly, my daily workout routine, and I'm an old fart).


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: rexdenton] #232424
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Ever seen the hands of a female Olympic gymnast after a workout on the bars? Wow!

I've got three daughters (and 1 son) and I would love to be able to point at a mixed cat team in the Olympics and say, "See? You CAN do this!"

In fact, I pointed out a picture of Paul Elvstrom sailing his Tornado with his daughter many years ago, we need more, not less, mixed sailing.

If you have young daughters, take them to see the movie Soul Surfer. It is the true story about that 13yr. old girl who had one arm bitten off by a shark while out surfing, and she returned to sufing a month later, and then won the Nationals a year later. I saw it last night when my 15yr. old daughter dragged me to it. I didn't really want to see it going in, but she begged me. Turned out it was a pretty good movie. I'm glad I went. No more excuses for her though!


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado] #232426
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Quote
Yes, we can state the boat needs better acceptance globally

Mike
and this is the key point... Japan has 1000 470 sailors in their class.. We don't have a 1000 multhull racers in the USA. All of the political BS is water under the bridge and resolved by the T's one design changes. F18's and F16's will have their own issues. Going forward, we must be certain that there is acceptance of a boat world wide THIS IS THE ISSUE.

What are the factors?... What will it take? Will a stock Hobie 16 generate participation comparable to lasers? There I just said it.

Quote
being independantly wealthy or having generous sponsorship is essential.


Um... well that is a hell of a selling point for a multihull class. You can't seriously believe you can sell a world wide evaluation committee on any multihull that comes with that baggage.

You need to change the process somehow if the only way your country can compete is by independent wealth or sponsorship.

So unless you solve the problem.. we will be bumped again!

Quote
Both boats are essentially entry level, low purchase.


If cheap is the decisive factor.... well, we have cheap multihulls available. You may not like those options but there are lots of boats that can compete with the laser/board/470 on purchase price and historic popularity.

Quote
Any multihull is at a disadvantage in comparison

Your argument CANNOT BE... we are a small deserving niche of the sport! its just hard for us... we are just not loved but we deserve the slot and we have a fabulous expensive boat for you to buy. We will politic better then the other guys to stay Olympic We have been there... done that... got booted.

The Keel boats were just booted and they are a LARGE deserving niche with an expensive boat and lots of cash but not enough votes world wide.

I don't have a good argument either... Everything leads back to a low cost laser equivalent that happens to be a multihull.

If the IOC and ISAF say they want a fabulous high performance machine for mixed cat... World deal with it... Fabulous... otherwise... a Hobie 16 is as laser like as you get.. Multihull Snobby catsailors of the world... Deal with it.

If you think there is some room between the two alternatives then you must ask: What does the IOC want... what does ISAF believe the IOC wants. What do the little countries of ISAF want. How much wiggle room... lots of questions.


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: windswept] #232427
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Quote
It is an expensive boat, but the most expensive boat for 2012 is the Star with the Elliot coming in a close second.


Tom
And now all three boats are gone.... I wonder why?

This is not a vote of all powerful, all knowing, or a small set of political hacks.. The ISAF vote is about a lot of countries representing their own interest. When the cost of the boat crosses a threshold that they can't play at, they vote you out when they can! .... Ignore this lesson if you want... but the Elliot has never sailed in OLYMPIC battle and it's gone.

Quote
It was removed because it was not a tightly controlled OD class.


So why exactly did the Tornado Class scrub the rules and now markets the Tornado as a ONE DESIGN TORNADO.. No choices allowed. Was it for better sailing.... or for better politics?

My read of the world is that the new paradigm is Popular and Affordable now trump brilliant and expensive. Smoothing over the bumps of the past won't address this issue.

We have a sales job to do...
On the cat racers of the world who want a fabulous iconic Olympic Cat for the unique game of MiXED... while dreaming of the day when they have TWO fabulous olympic cats. WE are going to need to accept Popular and Affordable

We also have to sell the other MNA's that they can be competitive with a start up multihull program. (Hell... we need to convince the USA MNA that we can be competitive with a start up multihull program.)



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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: rexdenton] #232431
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Originally Posted by rexdenton
Originally Posted by phill
I'm rather surprised that there are people that see including a mixed team in the multihull as a bad thing.

I don't get it either. The strength argument doesn't cut it for me-sure sailing can be tiring after a day, but apart from the abuse on hands the strength required doesn't even come close to competitive biking, triathlons, or swimming, (or frankly, my daily workout routine, and I'm an old fart).


I think its ok to have the mixed discipline.

I want to make it clear that my arguments are around the roles of each crew member and how that relates to their strengths. The Men will for the much greater part be taking on the crewing role for the reasons I have outlined before. In this configuration (female skipper and male crew) the teams will be competitive with other teams in the same configuration.


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232435
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I see the Tornados are wasting no time - they have announced the first Tornado Mixed Sailing World Championships in August and Mixed Europeans in September.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: phill] #232436
05/15/11 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by phill

This is not a big sport. We can't afford to leave 50% of the potential market out in the cold. If we want the sport to grow then this is probably the best thing that could happen to it.


50% of the potential market is of the fair sex, but they do control 90% of the household budgets.

I see no threat in a mixed multi oly class. We can only gain.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232437
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Quote

a Hobie 16 is as laser like as you get.. Multihull Snobby catsailors of the world... Deal with it.


Before we go overboard on this.

The H16 (le race version) was never more then 2500 Euro's cheaper then a race ready F16 in Europe over the last decade.

The H16 (or any other boats) may be cheaper then another more high tech design but that still doesn't mean that the price difference is anything to fuss over.

It may be quite negligiable indeed !

Other then that I think the H16 will simply never be chosen as the olympic boat as indeed the laser wouldn't be chosen in now if it hadn't been in the olympics. Part of the magic of the laser (and I do enjoy sailing it) is due to its long history and associated involvement in the big O. But in a direct comparison without this bias it would be passed by a newer design.

Other then that the Olympic hopefuls will never support the H16 in the big O. No-one is campaigning to use timber tennisrackets in the big O either. It is just that simple.

The core of the situation is to find a design that works for the Olympics (which almost certainly involves adopting a carbon mast and asym. spinnaker) and is still affordable enough to allow for wide participation. It is not the other way around where afforability is consideration number 1 and all other aspects come second. No olympic sport is structured in this latter way and neither will sailing. That is just not in the cards.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/15/11 04:00 AM.

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Wouter] #232445
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Looks to me like the Tornado guys (and girls) are already on it.


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232448
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Round texel 2011 has a mixed class too

This is adding another line of interest to our sport


Paul

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Wouter] #232449
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Wouter

I agree, No Olympic athlete would want less then a high performance boat. The last multihull trials... the top sailors loved the M20. They kept the Tornado.

BUT a strategic decision must be made by the Multihull leadership with an eye to the future. If more countries don't play... the multi will be out again.

Quote
The core of the situation is to find a design that works for the Olympics (which almost certainly involves adopting a carbon mast and asym. spinnaker) and is still affordable enough to allow for wide participation.


I agree the critical issue is world wide participation. Figuring out what the critical factors are to promote this outcome is key.

Cheap and popular is the obvious one but may simply negatively correlate with why countries don't get their sailors into high performance boats.

Personally, I think the key selling point is that the field is wide open... No established powers... indeed if the gals drive... just one country has a jump on the world.

Provide an equipment package that costs no more then the 29ner XX and you might grow the number of nations competing. Cross training programs could also leverage a small countries dollars.

Out of the box thinking is needed.... What is needed is to pick a boat and a GROWTH PROGRAM.

I assume that the Growth potential for elite world wide competition strongly supported by the rank and file will be a decisive factor.

Take your best shot... What program of incentives. (Manufacture provided boats??) World Wide Popularity and Growth potential, Hardware, Class regulation will hit the sweet spot.


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232450
05/15/11 10:36 PM
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Mark, how many nations do you estimate would put the issue beyond doubt, and what do you consider to be key nations not currently involved that you would want to go after as first priority?

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: ] #232454
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The selected boat needs to be close to F18.

Most countries do not have a massive cat scene and will use their sailor's results in F18 to select for their Olympic squad on the new boat.

Each country will only need 3 or 4 of these boats to run its squad with.

Last edited by TEAMVMG; 05/16/11 09:53 AM.

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The selected boat needs to be on par with the quality that the Marstrom Tornados were. The most expensive boat in beach cats is the least expensive to campaign.


I'm boatless.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #232462
05/16/11 10:00 AM
05/16/11 10:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Why? Make the argument!

Lots of the Olympic boats don't hold up for a campaign cycle.

The value over a 4 year cycle versus entry cost debate did not work for the Tornado for 20 years... What sea change makes you think this is important now?

If you are Costa Rica or Bermuda ...(pick a country in a growing part of the world) You have a small program... Who knows if your sailors are going to be able to compete... You need to build a pipeline to create a world class team... you can't count on rich family paying for their kid to pursue the Olympics. Trying to catch lighting in a bottle.... Would you not want lots of affordable boats to maximize your very small pyramid of sailors or a few Cadillac boats.


(I think the value in the boat is important but history seems to say that the value proposition is not determinative.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232464
05/16/11 11:12 AM
05/16/11 11:12 AM
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maritimesailor Offline
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At the end of the day lots of boats will go to the trials, one will win. Doesn't matter what the community thinks, it is the ISAF that will make that decision (I believe they are the ones the trials... could be wrong).

My guess, Viper if AHPC can show build quality (already proven), and more importantly, ability to ship to all Olympic countries (probably the hardest part, something Hobie would have an easier time showing).

The Laser is an interesting boat to look at not because of price, but how "not high performance" that boat is. The sail is crap, the rig is crap, the hull shape is awful (especially down wind), yet it is an Olympic boat... what lessons can we learn from this? I wasn't around when it was selected, but I think any Cat builder designing a boat to put forth at the trials should study why it was chosen. My thought is that it was a reliable boat that can be mass produced and shipped everywhere, while also being a challenging enough boat that a better sailor does actually win....

The trials are going to be interesting, I can't wait to see what different cat manufacturers are going to put up for it. Until then, all this talk is really just an academic exercise, as who knows what F18s will look like by then, Vipers, etc (okay, we know what a T will look like).

As for mixed, I'm all for it. Guarantees if 20 countries are in the multihull division there will be 20 girls, way more then any "open" class would have.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: maritimesailor] #232467
05/16/11 01:21 PM
05/16/11 01:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Quote
Doesn't matter what the community thinks,


So... you will just swallow what ever the selection committee serves up? I doubt that...
You may be right about the arrogance of the ISAF selection committee but that would be a tragic.

This game is ALL about buy-in and enrollment for the ISAF selection process.... not just for multihull sailors in the rank and file f but also for the rest of the sailing world in order to support Mixed Multihull saling. No support by the monohull guys will get you isolated and dinged again. (We have tried life as the red headed step child.... 8 years in the wilderness is the result.)

If ISAF and the MNA's ignore the community... they won't get much support down the road. Just ask the US cat sailors if they believe that USSA Olympic supported Tornado mulithull sailing. How about the sailors support for the ISAF junior boat...the infamous SL16! Benign neglect is corrosive...Do we have a viable youth program? Do the US cat sailors support the Pan Am teams then and now? How about ISAF F18 Championships? Surf city correctly decried the balkanization of the US sailing scene.

The ISAF multihull selection committee needs to bring the WORLDS multihull sailors along with regard to the selection criteria and forge a consensus to support the new Olympic Class and use the Olympics to further the popularity of the whole discipline. If they screw it up with the AC on big cats... it will be a greek tragedy! Failure to do so will mean another orphaned Olympic Class. No additional countries will be driven to compete in Mixed Multihull. You won't find the volunteers to set up a training pipeline to encourage and support young sailors. Ultimately, you are set up to be bumped again.

Paul Pascoe gets it... Hopefully the rest of ISAF and the MNA's will as well.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232470
05/16/11 03:36 PM
05/16/11 03:36 PM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Why? Make the argument!


It's cheaper to buy one $40k boat every four years, than five, six or seven $20k boats in that same four year period. AHPC builds a very nice product, but they won't last like a carbon/nomex tornado will. Sailing 200+ days a year takes its toll quickly. I think Robbie said they were going through a mainsheet a week while training for Atlanta, just as an example.


I'm boatless.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #232482
05/16/11 09:16 PM
05/16/11 09:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
When you use like 2mm dyneema for most of it that's bound to happen.


Have Fun
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232491
05/17/11 04:09 AM
05/17/11 04:09 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Why? Make the argument!

Lots of the Olympic boats don't hold up for a campaign cycle.

The value over a 4 year cycle versus entry cost debate did not work for the Tornado for 20 years... What sea change makes you think this is important now?

If you are Costa Rica or Bermuda ...(pick a country in a growing part of the world) You have a small program... Who knows if your sailors are going to be able to compete... You need to build a pipeline to create a world class team... you can't count on rich family paying for their kid to pursue the Olympics. Trying to catch lighting in a bottle.... Would you not want lots of affordable boats to maximize your very small pyramid of sailors or a few Cadillac boats.


(I think the value in the boat is important but history seems to say that the value proposition is not determinative.
There is a second hand market for boats!!!!! A 10 year plus old Marstom will be all a team needs to get into the class however they will need to go to Europe to really see if they meet the standard. This costs $$$$$. So if any wanabee in “Costa Rica or Bermuda ...(pick a country in a growing part of the world)” wish to kick start a campaign, then buy a second hand boat. Start off with an old Reggie or Sailcraft, then progress to an older Marstrom, take it to Euroland and see where you stand. Alternatively, pick up an old F18, learn how to sail it. Get a newer generation boat, head to Euroland, see how you stack up, then get a Marstom and head over again.

Once again, the purchase price of the boat looks insignificant. And as mentioned, you can look at the second hand market for a boat.


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232493
05/17/11 04:34 AM
05/17/11 04:34 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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As Macca has pointed out, with mixed crew sailing, males will generally move to the front of the boat regardless of boat selected. The more I think about it, the more I believe the Tornado is still the boat for the Games.

The class has a strong committee behind it that understands what is required to be an Olympic class. (BS Politics removed it from the Games, not the boat itself)

It is geographically wide spread, more so than other suggested classes with the exception of the H16.

The rules have developed to reduce exploitation at an Olympic level. The code zero came about because ISAF f@#Ked with their class rules for the games throwing out the minimum wind limit for racing in China. Not something the class has had to worry about in the past. Mast issues were addressed with the introduction of the carbon mast, initially built by Marstom but was to be opened up to other manufactures after 4 years so Marstrom could recoupe the development costs it injected.

Non OD sails did drive sail development which may have been a little expensive; however it also increased the ideal crew weight range on the T. The development in cuts also filtered down to other classes as with operating systems i.e. the snuffer and retrieval systems.

Multi manufacture OD rules help produce a better product for less $$$$. Marstrom dominated hull production in the later years, however we were starting to see quality hulls being produced from people like Graham Eeles and Windrush just before the T was pulled from the Games. This competition in manufacturing may have shook the platform prices up a bit.

The big T is a visually spectacular boat to watch. It is HP and whilst it may not be the fastest shape, no other boat cuts a bow wave like the T in full flight.


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232495
05/17/11 05:43 AM
05/17/11 05:43 AM

M
MarkMT
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MarkMT
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As important as the choice of boat is (and I think Tornado_ALIVE's comments are well made) I hope just as much effort goes into advancing the technology for capturing on the water video and related content. Ultimately I think this will live and die by the quality of the TV coverage.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: ] #232504
05/17/11 10:52 AM
05/17/11 10:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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All of your points are absolutely valid... BUT.

Andy Rice sums up the ISAF democratic vote... (ie their self interest vote) as such

Quote
The keelboat ticks few – if any – of the boxes laid down in the IOC criteria. It’s expensive and inaccessible to any but the 20 wealthiest nations in the world. The skiff ticks at least a few boxes. It’s accessible and it’s what the kids aspire to go racing in. This is the conclusion that has led the Events Committee to reach the majority decision that it reached today, and indeed four years ago. The skiff is seen as part of the future, the keelboat as part of the elitist past.


1) Notice... not a mention of the mixed multihull!

2) The Tornado is historically expensive and inaccessible and NOT popular with the young sailors.. (It is part of an elitist past... sadly) The F18... has the same geographic appeal and is equally inaccessible to the ISAF rank and file. How do you change perceptions in these ISAF Countries?

3) You have to market to the large number of ISAF countries that vote out expensive inaccessible toys.

4) How do you get the kids juiced up about racing Cats forcing their countries to get behind and support multi's in the Olympics.. The Tornado and F18's are not doing it now.

I don't think you have come close to a persuasive argument to the ISAF rank and file yet!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232505
05/17/11 10:57 AM
05/17/11 10:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
I've got three daughters (and 1 son) and I would love to be able to point at a mixed cat team in the Olympics and say, "See? You CAN do this!"


Is there an app for that? wink


Jay

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #232507
05/17/11 11:18 AM
05/17/11 11:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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okay, fine. Develop an OD 17x8.5 footer with a composite stick (for reproduceability), three sails (high aspect main, jib, asym), and high-tech foils.

Hull construction materials can include limited amount of higher-tech/cost material to increase durability primarily.

Hull volume is increased to allow for heavier teams. Team minimum weight requirement with limited corrector weight allowed

"Big O" licenses the molds (revenue for them)layup schedules, foils, and sailplan to builders in various regions. This will be set for each olympic cycle.

Boat is laid out like an F18, so teams can transition easily between the two.

Race course will be W/L (gate) with 5knot minimum and 25knot (sustained) max

Olympic games use builder supplied boats (2 from each builder) and teams rotate boats.


Jay

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #232511
05/17/11 11:33 AM
05/17/11 11:33 AM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Now were talking! I like it!

I would also change the qualification process. As Tornado Alive noted... you have to get to Europe... and that is real money.

Finding a way to make that less of a requirement would help the poorer countries make a go of it. The ISAF circuit makes it very very hard to expand the pool. We need some structural changes in the ISAF game to lower the costs... These are the cost that really drives Olympic sailing to the elitist stage.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232513
05/17/11 11:38 AM
05/17/11 11:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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would piggy-backing on the Pan Am Games (props to Dub on your competing there!) allow for a reduction in expenses for those hopefuls on this side of the pond?


Jay

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #232518
05/17/11 11:55 AM
05/17/11 11:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
would piggy-backing on the Pan Am Games (props to Dub on your competing there!) allow for a reduction in expenses for those hopefuls on this side of the pond?


Props to Mr. Thomas as well, skippers need love too. Now back to scheduled programming.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #232525
05/17/11 01:52 PM
05/17/11 01:52 PM
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Kris Hathaway Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
okay, fine. Develop an OD 17x8.5 footer with a composite stick (for reproduceability), three sails (high aspect main, jib, asym), and high-tech foils.

Hull construction materials can include limited amount of higher-tech/cost material to increase durability primarily.

Hull volume is increased to allow for heavier teams. Team minimum weight requirement with limited corrector weight allowed

"Big O" licenses the molds (revenue for them)layup schedules, foils, and sailplan to builders in various regions. This will be set for each olympic cycle.

Boat is laid out like an F18, so teams can transition easily between the two.

Race course will be W/L (gate) with 5knot minimum and 25knot (sustained) max

Olympic games use builder supplied boats (2 from each builder) and teams rotate boats.

Sounds like a class that already exists...maybe a foot shorter. wink


Kris Hathaway
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Kris Hathaway] #232527
05/17/11 02:23 PM
05/17/11 02:23 PM
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waterbug_wpb Offline
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Right, but it would allay the fears that an Olympic 18 footer would "destroy" the F18 fleet...


Jay

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #232529
05/17/11 02:36 PM
05/17/11 02:36 PM
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Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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No worries. I was alluding to F16. It is surprissing how well the newer hulls carry 2-up weight. Once you mentioned a min crew weight to dispell fears of anerexic males or little people, it should fit the requirements.

Last edited by Kris Hathaway; 05/17/11 02:36 PM.

Kris Hathaway
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Kris Hathaway] #232539
05/17/11 05:58 PM
05/17/11 05:58 PM
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Australia
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I think that an 18ft (possibly F18 even) will not have so much of a negative effect on the F18 class as a whole. The F18 class is big enough now to exist with one of the designs being Olympic.

If they chose and F16 on the other hand.... that would spell the end for the class as it is right now. That would be a shame, as I said many times I believe the F16 class has the potential to be a big international class.


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232556
05/18/11 07:25 AM
05/18/11 07:25 AM
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pgp Offline
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I still don't see why we're discussing ONE Olympic catamaran.

It seems to me sailing is as different from the other disciplines as Winter is from Summer. As such, sailing deserves its own set of games, imo.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: pgp] #232557
05/18/11 07:31 AM
05/18/11 07:31 AM
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Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Totally agree with you Pete and that is why there was some considerable discussion when the IMC mooted a World Games regatta to make up for the loss of the T from the Olympics and there was huge support.
Perhaps if the multi hadn't have got back in, that support would have made it a reality? On that note, why can't the IMC try and get it anyway?


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Jalani] #232558
05/18/11 07:33 AM
05/18/11 07:33 AM
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pgp Offline
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+1

FWIW- Since "Eddie the Eagle" the IOC has placed a minimum skills requirement for athelets so there is like chance of skills being watered down by sub par performance.

Imo, that is where we should be headed, developing a program designed to measure and raise the sailing skills set to Olympic standards.

Last edited by pgp; 05/18/11 07:37 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #232559
05/18/11 07:33 AM
05/18/11 07:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Boat is laid out like an F18


Don't you mean like a Tornado. Where do you think a lot of these systems filtered down from.


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232561
05/18/11 07:42 AM
05/18/11 07:42 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Now were talking! I like it!

I would also change the qualification process. As Tornado Alive noted... you have to get to Europe... and that is real money.


Sadly it is more than just qualify. You need to get to Europe for real cat racing. You need to mix it on the European circit to build the experince, then later to prove yourself against the International fleet. Fact is, if you have not got serious $$$$ behind you AFTER buying a boat, you have no chance. Forget just tallent..... You need tallent and $$$$$.

Olympic sailing is a profesional, big dollar sport now days. If you want to make it more within reach, force sailors to work 9 to 5 in a regular, non industry job for starters.


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Kris Hathaway] #232566
05/18/11 08:17 AM
05/18/11 08:17 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

Sounds like a class that already exists...maybe a foot shorter.



Make that "7 inches shorter" instead of the 12 inches that go into a full foot. The class name may use the number 16 but the hulls are actually a bit longer than that.

The name F16.42 didn't sound as catchy as F16.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232574
05/18/11 10:10 AM
05/18/11 10:10 AM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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The ISAF countries are going to continue to vote their self interest.... IE What events do we have a shot at... Nothing like a principled stand for 5 disciplines.

The Tornado, Star and Elliot 6 had one common factor... All dominated by the Pros.... aka too elite for the rest of the ISAF world... they had no chance.

The Match Race circuit was so elite (limited boats and expensive regattas ) that you could not get a slot in the events if you were a small country....

What is the deal with the 470 or 49ner..... Are these classes easier for the little ISAf countries to feel that they have a shot.

I can understand the 470... it's your classic two handed dinghy.. a junior in Japan could be the "lighting in a bottle that Japan" needs for medal and they fit the 470...



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #232588
05/18/11 07:02 PM
05/18/11 07:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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windswept  Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Why? Make the argument!


It's cheaper to buy one $40k boat every four years, than five, six or seven $20k boats in that same four year period. AHPC builds a very nice product, but they won't last like a carbon/nomex tornado will. Sailing 200+ days a year takes its toll quickly. I think Robbie said they were going through a mainsheet a week while training for Atlanta, just as an example.

It is cheaper to by one boat that will hold up. As far as I know though carbon fiber is still illegal in the Tornado class. Marström Tornados are autoclaved glass-nomex boats. The only carbon Tornado that I knew of was one that Paul Standley of Yankee Laminates built around 95-96 as a trial boat. The class voted against carbon or other composites at the time because it would have made most the fleet obsolete.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: windswept] #232590
05/18/11 07:33 PM
05/18/11 07:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
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Mark... for a guy that claims to know everything, you would think you would know that it's 49er not 49ner.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: windswept] #232596
05/18/11 10:01 PM
05/18/11 10:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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I stand corrected. All the same, extremely well built to withstand an Olympic campaign, which was the point.


I'm boatless.
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