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Yet another rules question #231697
04/29/11 12:16 PM
04/29/11 12:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 284
Norfolk, VA
Dan Berger Offline OP
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Dan Berger  Offline OP
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Norfolk, VA
OK, This is more of a 2 part situation.

When two boats approach a mark and are within a few boat lengths, the outside one has
to give room to the inside one to round the mark. I understand they are allowed a proper
rounding, but nothing more. The outer boat only needs to give enough room for the inner
boat to get around the mark and nothing else. They can't push the inner boat into the mark,
but if the inner boat touches the outer boat and the outer boat has given the inner boat enough
room, they have fouled the outer boat. Is this a proper understanding of the rule?

Then, how about this scenereo: A boat is approaching on starboard and will be the inner boat,
the (soon to be) outer boat is on port. The outer boat (still on port) must give right of way
PERIOD even if the starboard boat (still closer to the mark) sails past the mark and does not
round it, right? I mean, the port boat may be trying to make the mark, but he can't assume the
starboard boat will try to make a close mark rounding?

This is why I ask:

I'm positive I didn't have any rights from a simple port/starboard situation, but I think the other
boat pulled a dangerous maneuver.

I was the Port boat--very close to rounding the gate and continuing on port. Facing downwind, this
was the left gate, so I was coming in the center of the gates and hanging a left. I was on an A cat
and a spinnaker boat on Starboard came in to the mark from the left with the spin up. I couldn't hear
what he was saying, all I heard was 'Mark.' His layline was dead even with both marks, so he was
coming in at 90 degrees. I assumed he would be rounding the close mark (that he
was about to pass) and wanted room, but I saw a red flag in that he was REALLY close and didn't look
like he was even thinking about snuffing his spin. I thought he would try to round the mark and do it
all at one time since it was light wind. Turns out, he sailed very close to the left gate, in between
the gates and rounded the right one! I had to slam over to starboard and basically stall for him to
pass me, then I jibed back to port and rounded the mark.

Now, I'm thinking that wasn't a good move on his part and that he could have caused a lot of damage by
not considering what was going on at the mark. I think he had all the rights in the world, but it was
a thoughtless, **** move!?


Dan Berger
Norfolk, VA
A Cat USA139
Supercat 15
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Yet another rules question [Re: Dan Berger] #231700
04/29/11 12:32 PM
04/29/11 12:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
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mikekrantz Offline
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This is a tricky situation with small gates.

If you are outside of the 3-boat circle then simple port/starboard rules are in effect.

If you are inside 3 boatlengths of either mark, then Rule 18 (Mark-Room) takes precedence.

Assuming you are inside the 3-boat circle, then:

If you had continued on port towards the Left mark, the starboard boat would have rights as the inside boat and be entitled to room at the Left mark, and that includes room for a takedown and gybe around the mark.

However, had you gybed over to starboard and gone for the Right mark, you would have been entitled to room at the mark as the inside boat. He would have had to do a takedown and round outside of you.

Re: Yet another rules question [Re: mikekrantz] #231701
04/29/11 12:50 PM
04/29/11 12:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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tampa, fl
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
This is a tricky situation with small gates.

If you are outside of the 3-boat circle then simple port/starboard rules are in effect.

If you are inside 3 boatlengths of either mark, then Rule 18 (Mark-Room) takes precedence.

Assuming you are inside the 3-boat circle, then:

If you had continued on port towards the Left mark, the starboard boat would have rights as the inside boat and be entitled to room at the Left mark, and that includes room for a takedown and gybe around the mark.

However, had you gybed over to starboard and gone for the Right mark, you would have been entitled to room at the mark as the inside boat. He would have had to do a takedown and round outside of you.


What if his intention is to go to the right mark? Does the Port/Starboard rule take precendence again? Or since they are in the 3 boat length circle, can the port boat force him to gybe and round the left mark?


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Yet another rules question [Re: ksurfer2] #231702
04/29/11 12:57 PM
04/29/11 12:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 284
Norfolk, VA
Dan Berger Offline OP
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Dan Berger  Offline OP
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Thought I'd add a crude drawing of the incident:

Situation

Last edited by Dan Berger; 04/29/11 01:10 PM.

Dan Berger
Norfolk, VA
A Cat USA139
Supercat 15
Re: Yet another rules question [Re: Dan Berger] #231703
04/29/11 01:23 PM
04/29/11 01:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Rather it's legal or not ,it's a totally douchebag, unsafe move. Let me guess: Yellow N-20?


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
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If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Yet another rules question [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #231705
04/29/11 02:02 PM
04/29/11 02:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Let me guess: Yellow N-20?


slap-chop....to da nutz

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 04/29/11 02:03 PM.

Jay

Re: Yet another rules question [Re: waterbug_wpb] #231708
04/29/11 02:10 PM
04/29/11 02:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 284
Norfolk, VA
Dan Berger Offline OP
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Dan Berger  Offline OP
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Norfolk, VA
Rumor has it that it was a yellow I20. I'm otherwise trying to keep it anonymous.


Dan Berger
Norfolk, VA
A Cat USA139
Supercat 15
Re: Yet another rules question [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #231709
04/29/11 02:12 PM
04/29/11 02:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Mike Hill  Offline
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St. Louis, MO,
Thoughtless move or not. You are the keep clear boat. If that means forcing you to gybe then that's what it means. Once you gybe then you are inside boat and get room at the other mark. I don't like the way the rules work here either because boats can force you to gybe and then gybe for the favored mark. Just part of the game now that I understand it. Don't count on your competitors to understand it though.

Notice that rule 18.4 does not apply at a gate.

18.4 Gybing
When an inside overlapped right-of-way boat must gybe at a mark to sail her proper course, until she gybes she shall sail no farther from the mark than needed to sail that course. Rule 18.4 does not apply at a gate mark.


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Yet another rules question [Re: waterbug_wpb] #231712
04/29/11 03:07 PM
04/29/11 03:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
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On the Water
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Let me guess: Yellow N-20?


slap-chop....to da nutz


I don't think it was Tad.
Since I was there, and I sail a spin boat, and it is yellow, and it's a N20, and I recall a similar incident at the C mark, I'll assume it was me. So much for anonymous. . .

First off to Dan. I would never maliciously attempt a maneuver as you describe. There was no danger and that is really painting a picture with a broad stroke. I saw it from a much better and different perspective, the drawing was not accurate, and other boats were in play. All the same, my apologies to you since you feel offended, and if perception allows it to be perceived as not a good move, so be it. I'm am sorry. So here's my take:

It was light winds and SLOW. I had a very clear view of how this situation was playing out and the boat speeds of all involved. Both port A's were concentrating on mark rounding.

I was NOT reaching into the mark at 90 degrees to the wind, but was sailing downwind with a layline to the far (right downwind) gate.

I was sailing between two port tack A-cats. Jack Young(A-cat) was my leeward on port and Dan was my windward on port (A-cat). A fourth boat Trey (N20} coming into the far right gate on port and ahead of me.

Dan was further back to the mark than how I perceive the drawing and was slowing in his speed. Jack was just about to approach/begin his rounding.

What Dan partially heard me hail was ("I'm sailing to the far mark"). I announce my intentions to him.

Dan, assumptions aside, the only way I could have possibly gibed to the left mark, I would STILL have to sail past you as that was the only way I would have made the left mark.

Perception of what happened between us is obviously different. Perceive it a shitty move within my rights, and with that I apologize, as it was not my intention.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: Yet another rules question [Re: Mike Hill] #231713
04/29/11 03:08 PM
04/29/11 03:08 PM
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brucat Offline
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Without digging up all the rule references, I'd say starboard has rights, all the way across to the other gate. It's one of the (somewhat) recent changes.

I seem to recall a long thread here a while back regarding this exact issue.

I also think this has the potential for disaster written all over it, but I think the rule was written with a specific (and good) itention. It escapes me at the moment.

All that aside, what the schizzle was he doing coming in at that angle? Assuming your drawing is correct (with respect to wind direction and boat angles); that, as they say, is NOT fast...

EDIT: OK, Philip and I posted at the same time. Looks like the drawing is in question. Typical stuff for a protest hearing...

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 04/29/11 03:12 PM.
Re: Yet another rules question [Re: brucat] #231714
04/29/11 03:16 PM
04/29/11 03:16 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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As far as I know I didn't make anyone angry at Spring Fever.

At least nobody who wasn't already angry with me.

Re: Yet another rules question [Re: ThunderMuffin] #231715
04/29/11 03:23 PM
04/29/11 03:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Undecided
As far as I know I didn't make anyone angry at Spring Fever.

At least nobody who wasn't already angry with me.


Hey I tried to say hi you basically told me to piss off.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Re: Yet another rules question [Re: Dan Berger] #231717
04/29/11 04:03 PM
04/29/11 04:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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I had one of those with another F18 on the same day (I think) - I was on port running a little deep to get to the left mark (left as I was approaching). The F18 was overstood and coming in with speed at a relatively sharp angle with some speed. The left mark was very favored with the wind and I, assuming he was going to round the left mark, left him room to round. Thinking about it though, if he had intended to go to the right mark, I would have fouled him. As it was, he gybed around the mark inside me and turned head to wind right into it (I think he had his mind set that the wind would be square with the course). I had setup to be on his sterns hoping he was going to round deep leaving me a window but had to duck him while he played with the mark. After first saying he would do a penalty turn, he later complained that I didn't leave him enough room. I asked my crew to just remember where his rudder casting was when I started my bear away to avoid him (it was at my bow / forestay bridle) as evidence that he was actually clear ahead at the moment he turned up into the mark. I lost track of him and can't say whether or not he did his turn.

I remember there was a reason that the marks were to be placed so that the "boat-lengths zones" didn't overlap - it made the rules much clearer. I'm not sure that's the case anymore (I need to read up).


Jake Kohl
Re: Yet another rules question [Re: Jake] #231747
04/30/11 10:19 PM
04/30/11 10:19 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 127
Rock Hill,SC
KevinRejda Offline
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You (RC) gotta keep the zones from overlapping (RC101) 3 boat lengths + 3 boat lengths + safety margin = 7 or 8 or 9 boat lengths minimum. This can stll create havoc as I can sail into and out of the circle around one mark on my way to the other (especially if I have overstood). Decide early, take your lumps if you have to, don't press a bad position


Kevin Rejda
Rock Hill, SC

Re: Yet another rules question [Re: David Ingram] #231752
05/01/11 06:29 AM
05/01/11 06:29 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Undecided
As far as I know I didn't make anyone angry at Spring Fever.

At least nobody who wasn't already angry with me.


Hey I tried to say hi you basically told me to piss off.


Really? I smiled and said "Hello David, I'm having a nice life."

Which is, if I recall correctly what you told me to do. I thought you pretty much told me to piss off.

Re: Yet another rules question [Re: ThunderMuffin] #231902
05/04/11 12:03 PM
05/04/11 12:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
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Dan_Delave Offline
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To me the picture does not make sense so I had to change it a bit for how the marks should look.

I think that the leeward gate is a pretty important part of racing. I personally really like the tactics that one has to decide, sometimes at the last second. You should always be thinking about the best way to get out of this alive!

If the marks are as skewed as you pictured then the port rounding mark would be so favored that you may think everyone would round it, but...you will have to watch closely have have your bail out ready.

The starboard boat is coming into the mark with rights. In the three boat length circle they still have rights as the inside boat. If the rights do not change a boat is allowed to round the mark tactically. This means that they are allowed to round the mark in any fashion they feel is the best for them to continue to the next mark, providing they do not go outside of three boat lengths to do so. It is not for the burdened boat to give them just enough room so they can get their boat between that boat and the mark. That is more similar to a seaman-like rounding.

If you decided to Gybe and be inside boat at the starboard rounding mark then rights would have passed hands, from the Starboard boat to the inside boat. In this case you are given room to round in a seaman like way (as opposed to tactical). Meaning that it may not be the best rounding you could have, as if you were alone at the mark.
[Linked Image]
From blue to red is where rights change. Light green is rights through the rounding.

Dan

Re: Yet another rules question [Re: Dan_Delave] #231918
05/04/11 03:20 PM
05/04/11 03:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 284
Norfolk, VA
Dan Berger Offline OP
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Dan Berger  Offline OP
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Norfolk, VA
OK, so it was Phillip--I really didn't want to call him out or accuse him of anything. I don't think he would purposely try to foul me, so there are no bad feelings.

However, I had a 9 hour drive home and I got to thinking about the situation and how the rules play into it, which is why I posted the question in the first place. So, this is not a beat-up-on-Phillip post.

Practically everyone was rounding the left mark and heading back up the course. A very few people rounded the other mark, but the left side (as drawn) was definitely favored. I was the B boat and eventually followed the light green route. In retrospect, the dark green route would have been better given the circumstance, but there was a nice line of wind to the left, not so much on the right.


Dan Berger
Norfolk, VA
A Cat USA139
Supercat 15
Re: Yet another rules question [Re: Dan Berger] #231921
05/04/11 04:58 PM
05/04/11 04:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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In the 2008 (and prior) rules, there was a lot of confusion regarding rule 18 (Room at Marks and Obstructions). Most of that stemmed from the fact that when rule 18 conflicted with rules 10-13, then those rules didn't apply. A lot of sailors didn't understand that that right-of-way sometimes changed when boats were about to round or pass a mark.

Starting in 2009, that changed. The new Rule 18 "Mark Room", no longer overrides Part A Rules. Right-of-way doesn't change - instead a boat entitled to mark room can be exonerated for breaking rules 10-13, 15, or 16. "Mark room" has also been explictly defined. I've seen several explanations so far that are based on the former rule 18, not the curret one.

Even so, another look at this scenerio shows that Rule 18 never even comes into play. It really is just a Starboard/Port situation. Rule 10 requires P to keep clear of S. Being outside boat near a mark doesn't change that.

No rule requires S to sail her proper course, so P must be observant of what S does - not what P thinks S should do. If there was thoughtlessness or danger in this scenerio, it is because of P's misunderstanding, not S's.

I hope that helps,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

Re: Yet another rules question [Re: Isotope235] #231925
05/04/11 07:01 PM
05/04/11 07:01 PM
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Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Exactly, no sympathy for approaching a mark on port with starboard traffic.

I've had an even worse situation of coming into the gates on starboard with a chute when on the same course with dinghies lined up on port tack. They got an eyeful of the speed and angle that we carry relative them. Rest of the day, they were very mindful of coming in on starboard.


Kris Hathaway
Re: Yet another rules question [Re: Kris Hathaway] #231943
05/05/11 05:15 AM
05/05/11 05:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
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pepin  Offline
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France
Well, someone explained to me this last week that at a gate the most important rule is the overlap. So you may be on starboard getting to the starboard gate but at the 3 length all the boats on port are in front of your transom and as such overlapped: you owe them room.

This doesn't apply at the windward mark.

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