| Nacra 20 owners please chime in here #233814 06/20/11 03:20 PM 06/20/11 03:20 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums OP
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Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | Ok, before the GT 300 this year, most of us discussed going with different sail makers for our boats. It's been discussed amongst us for the past few years since the F18 class can shop sails and we can't yet still have to race against them for the Overall Trophy on Portsmouth. This year we had Team Poison Girl with aftermarket main and jib (higher aspect but same sq footage). Team Dallas with a different jib. Team Yost with different spinn and Team Chums with different spin and jib. Everyone in the N20 class was ok with it because of above stated reasons. This year I contacted Glaser to build us a spinn. Initial discussions lead towards building a Chupacabra chute but I decided on a chute that would measure in at the same size as the factory chutes. Jay built one that was suited to running the GT300 and the reaching conditions that are commonly associated with it. And I have to say, he hit one out of the park with the chute he gave us. I think it is finally a cut that does the platform justice. We were able to reach hard with it and not suffer. The acceleration was something I've never felt with that boat. In the puffs, rather than the usual healing over and driving down with it, it was more forward acceleration and controlled power. Now I know why the F18's keep getting faster. The sail development is a significant factor. Why not let our platform benefit from it for those of us who choose to stay with it?
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: TeamChums]
#233828 06/20/11 04:52 PM 06/20/11 04:52 PM |
Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS Capt_Cardiac
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Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS | Lee,
I support the development of sails. In fact I would say Performance does as well since Nacra Europe has N20 sails for sale that are not the same as as the EP sails. I'm very happy to hear the GT300 had an agreement to allow development. I would like to see the current sail area maintained and let the development continue.
Capt Cardiac Ocean Springs Yacht Club Sailor Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Capt_Cardiac]
#233837 06/20/11 10:19 PM 06/20/11 10:19 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | I agree 100% and have for a few years. Same sail areas but development by whomever you'd like to cut your sails. I'm gonna have to look into a Glaser kite and maybe a main.
Todd Hart
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Jake]
#233847 06/21/11 07:03 AM 06/21/11 07:03 AM |
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Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | And...BOOM goes the dynamite. Too funny! I don't dissagree with Tad on that one, however if our class was not in it's dying gasps for breath, I would be more supportive of that stance. The biggest factors here is having to race Portsmouth against the F18's for the overall trophy. Not to mention that Nacra here in the US seems to care less about developing our sail plan. How many years should it take to come out with an updated design? The Nacra 20 is still a very incredible platform. It deserves up to date sail developement. We're not just racing other N20's anymore, we're racing against a quickly developing class. I am glad Tad posted that. I didn't want this to be a thread where everyone was supposed to agree with the original post, I was wanting discussion from both sides of the thought spectrum. For the record, the agreement was amongst the sailors racing the N20's and not Race Management. BUT, it does say in the N20 class rules that provisions can made for distance races.
Last edited by TeamChums; 06/21/11 07:07 AM.
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#233853 06/21/11 08:04 AM 06/21/11 08:04 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Keep in mind if you guys update your sailplan as a class there will be a lot of pressure to have your number adjusted (probably to the .995 hit for the main). I also think you'll get the adjustment immediatly because the modifier exists for what you want to do and it would be easy to roll out a new number.
As Tad suggested just go get yourself a set of custom sails and take the adjustment, it's only a .995 hit for the main and the spin is free. How many class races a year are you doing now?
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: TeamChums]
#233856 06/21/11 08:07 AM 06/21/11 08:07 AM |
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,490 On the Water P.M.
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Posts: 2,490 On the Water | The biggest factors here is having to race Portsmouth against the F18's for the overall trophy. We're not just racing other N20's anymore, we're racing against a quickly developing class.
Sails aren't going to fix it. . . . F18 -- 62.4 N20 -- 59.3 (even lower with aftermarket)
Philip USA #1006 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#233857 06/21/11 08:10 AM 06/21/11 08:10 AM |
Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 465 FL sail7seas
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Posts: 465 FL | Changing the rules isn't going to do anything to save the class other than split the fleet into stock and aftermarket sails groups. What is gained when 5 Nacra 20's show up to an event and 3 of them have stock sails and 2 of them have aftermarket sails? It does nothing but dilute and divide the fleet.
If you want open sails then go to a class that allows open sails. Don't change the rules after people are already invested in the class.
Since most sails have a competitive lifetime of about three years or less, designate a transitional time period? During the transition is the tough question. | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: sail7seas]
#233858 06/21/11 08:17 AM 06/21/11 08:17 AM |
Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 678 Palm Beach County TheManShed
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Posts: 678 Palm Beach County | NACRA changed the rules for the 5.2 to allow a second trapeze, although they did stick with the same sails.
Mike Shappell www.themanshed.comTMS-20 Builder G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat NACRA 5.2 - early 70's | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: TheManShed]
#233863 06/21/11 08:53 AM 06/21/11 08:53 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Answer is easy as I see it . Go ahead and the split the class( it's dead anyway) and have a "N-20OD" (not SMOD a.k.a. moneygrab) and start fresh with a new provisional number which is more inline with other performance boats out there. With the results being what they have been, the number should be far closer, if not higher, than the F-18 number than it is. Which one is wrong? How many regattas have a legit N-20 class now? And Tad, just remember "people in glass houses..." You better read your class rules very carefully before you make your stand. I am glad you still like the Kool-aid Trey makes for you.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#233866 06/21/11 09:05 AM 06/21/11 09:05 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
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Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | And Tad, just remember "people in glass houses..." You better read your class rules very carefully before you make your stand. Oh I'm so sorry Todd for having spin pole bridle wires that are dyneema. Because clearly I'm getting a huge competitive advantage by not having bridle wires that are 6" too long and would require non-class-legal modifications to even function. Go ahead and protest me for that. We'll have a great time ****ing each over other in the room instead of going sailing. Considering how much better you are than I am, I'll end up as the defacto winner of that little foray. There's a certain amount of "making it work" modifications that I'm willing to live with and still fall within the spirit of the rules - especially for distance races. Completely new, non-class legal sails is well past the line I'm willing to draw. I am glad you still like the Kool-aid Trey makes for you. Thanks for that vote of confidence in my ability to form opinions for myself. | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: hoofhearted]
#233867 06/21/11 09:18 AM 06/21/11 09:18 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums OP
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Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | Don' see how changing the sails is going to do anything except increase costs for owners. The kite was cheaper than E/P at around $1350. How is that increasing the cost?
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#233870 06/21/11 09:23 AM 06/21/11 09:23 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
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Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | http://nacraclass.com/interrules.htmAnd my previous post about my spin pole bridle wires being not class legal is debatable since they do not appear on the rigging schedule, and further to that, there's nothing in the spinnaker pole, snuffer, and rigging section (9.2, 9.3) make no mention of the spin pole bridle wires. Just so the air is clear here, what particular class rule are you accusing me of violating? I'm honestly curious because I honestly don't know. | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: TeamChums]
#233871 06/21/11 09:26 AM 06/21/11 09:26 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
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Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | Don' see how changing the sails is going to do anything except increase costs for owners. The kite was cheaper than E/P at around $1350. How is that increasing the cost? How many Kites did you have to pay for before that one was the one you picked? I know from my PHRF racing days that the skippers I'd race for would usually have to buy 3 spins before he found one that he liked - and then bought two more in different sizes for different wind strengths. Whose to say that someone with deep pockets couldn't go out and go buy about 5 spinnakers and pick the best one for the event? Thats not the class I signed up for. | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: hoofhearted]
#233872 06/21/11 09:26 AM 06/21/11 09:26 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Don' see how changing the sails is going to do anything except increase costs for owners. The square rigger sailors probably thought that for a little while too. It's progress. The sailplan is 15 years old with no development.If you don't buy new sails anyway, what difference does it make.You can't be competitive with old rags. New sails comes with being competitive, no matter who cuts them. It's part of the racing expense. You can DEFINITELY find cheaper sails than the factory EP, that perform better. So you actually save money. The Factory attempt at a new kite is either top secret or an abysmal failure. If you would like the N-20 to be relegated to the "also ran" lake crusier with 6 people on it, then you are getting your wish.people are buying the used boats because they are relatively cheap compared to the options not because of a 1D philosophy or class control. I've raced/owned the N-20 since 2000 when it was pushed on us for the Worrell.I think it deserves more of an effort, if it means being a one man class so be it. It's a distance racer anyway. As a class we should build on our strenghts and our 1D philosophy, not try to chase other boats. Seriously ,Good luck with that. Does anybody have an idea how many regattas had Class starts for the N-20? 1 Spring Fever 2 3
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#233873 06/21/11 09:29 AM 06/21/11 09:29 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Whose to say that someone with deep pockets couldn't go out and go buy about 5 spinnakers and pick the best one for the event? It's all ready been done in the Nacra 20 class. The consistency is far enough off that, that was a standard practice among the well sponsored teams in the Worrell and to a lesser extent the Tybee.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#233874 06/21/11 09:35 AM 06/21/11 09:35 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | And Tad, just remember "people in glass houses..." You better read your class rules very carefully before you make your stand. Oh I'm so sorry Todd for having spin pole bridle wires that are dyneema. Because clearly I'm getting a huge competitive advantage by not having bridle wires that are 6" too long and would require non-class-legal modifications to even function. Go ahead and protest me for that. We'll have a great time ****ing each over other in the room instead of going sailing. Considering how much better you are than I am, I'll end up as the defacto winner of that little foray. There's a certain amount of "making it work" modifications that I'm willing to live with and still fall within the spirit of the rules - especially for distance races. Completely new, non-class legal sails is well past the line I'm willing to draw. I am glad you still like the Kool-aid Trey makes for you. Thanks for that vote of confidence in my ability to form opinions for myself. Tad, A rule is a rule. If you're willing to draw it in the sand for other people you better make sure you are 100% legit. The only thing that would change at all about the sails is who makes them.Sizes would all be the same. Not that there has ever been a factory sail measurement or consistency for the N-20.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#233876 06/21/11 09:43 AM 06/21/11 09:43 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Why would I show my hand now. I'll wait until you protest me.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#233878 06/21/11 09:51 AM 06/21/11 09:51 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Says alot about your character that you are willing to hold back an entire class from development.Self serving at best.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#233880 06/21/11 10:02 AM 06/21/11 10:02 AM |
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 72 Rockledge Cay, FL Fearless_Rider
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journeyman
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 72 Rockledge Cay, FL | I've been watching this issue for some time now with quite a keen interest. In the not too distant future a new main and spinnaker is to be purchased.
Where to go, what to buy?
Easy answers (?) NACRA or EP directly... I have an aftermarket spinnaker from Whirlwind which is fantastically built and I use for non racing fun times.
N20 637
BTW, my BBQ Rocks!
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#233882 06/21/11 10:27 AM 06/21/11 10:27 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums OP
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Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | How many Kites did you have to pay for before that one was the one you picked? Just one. I told them what I wanted (same size as original), gave them 50%, then they made it. Maybe I just got lucky and the first attempt was a good one. I would like to think Jay is at the top of his game when it comes to sailmaking/designing. The kite is definately a step up.
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: TeamChums]
#233883 06/21/11 10:36 AM 06/21/11 10:36 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Jay and Pease cut a nice sail and two nicer and more helpful people you will not meet. It doesn't hurt that they are two very active beachcat sailors. I'm a fan!
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: David Ingram]
#233884 06/21/11 10:59 AM 06/21/11 10:59 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 744 Bob_Curry
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744 | So, All this aftermarket chat is great about the sails. One question to answer is how are they to be measured? I thought there was already a time frame for new sails; what's taking so long? Where is the new set of class rules stating the sail area and how to get there? On the ratings, maybe the F18 needs to come down since it is always evolving and becoming "faster". The N20 has been the benchmark boat for quite some time in the rating food chain. There seems to be a lot of blah-blah-blah on a dead class; all IMO. It would be easy to spell out a max head width, max luff, max leech, max foot = max sailarea and have at it on the mainsail! Just spell out the max sailarea for the chute(ISAF measure). The jib will take care of itself with the small triangle. Easy button here from an outside sailor. I look forward to more debate(entertainment) and hope to see some interesting things on the water! BC
"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.” Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Bob_Curry]
#233885 06/21/11 11:22 AM 06/21/11 11:22 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | So,
On the ratings, maybe the F18 needs to come down since it is always evolving and becoming "faster". The N20 has been the benchmark boat for quite some time in the rating food chain.
I agree with your point Bob, and I'd also take a step further and say that NONE of the formula/box rule boats have stood still and ALL of them need to be reviewed (F16, A-cat and yes Brett the M20!), oh heck while we're at it let's give the RC30 a good hard look, I don't think I've every seen that rig in the same configuration twice. Why can the RC30 carry multiple headsails w/o penality where every other beachcat takes a hit for doing so? Because you're on the DPN committee can you field that question for us? Or better yet can you define the intent of "All sails". Is that defined as main/jib/1 headsail/ or as many sails that you want to put on the boat at any given time? And since you are on the DPN committee what's the review process and how does it get started? Bet you're wishing you never clicked the "post" button now aint ya? :-)
Last edited by David Ingram; 06/21/11 11:32 AM.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: David Ingram]
#233886 06/21/11 11:39 AM 06/21/11 11:39 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD |
Since you are on the DPN committee what's the process and how does it get started? Oh that's easy!... you need data from a buoys race lasting 45 to an hour against other rated boats (F18's Hobie 16's Tornado) The old secondary yardsticks ... Oh each boat with the same configuration (aka class legal) ... 3 to 5 of each would be a great data set. Measure the wind speed on the course over the race and average it. 99 bottles of beer on the wall.... take one down.. pass it around.... 98 bottles of beer on the wall. When you get to trashed... oh say 15 bottles into this.... you will have a provisional number. 85 more and you are good to go. Just PHRF/estimate the numbers as you want... It's easier on the liver.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#233889 06/21/11 11:51 AM 06/21/11 11:51 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | <********! Well, until Mary finds out then it's party over.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#233890 06/21/11 11:59 AM 06/21/11 11:59 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | AH... I have figured out the problem Todd is having with you..
You don't know how to READ!.... (don't worry, that's correctable... stupid would be unfortunate)
I wrote.. PHRF..... not measurement... PHRF.... you say you understand PHRF... you referenced the evils of PHRF before.
You do know how PHRF works right...? A regional board evaluates race data, Sailor skill, boat prep, team work on the boat, number of sails, size of sails, etc .... and they estimate one rating number for TOD racing usually.
Carry on with killing your N20 class as quickly as you can..
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: David Ingram]
#233892 06/21/11 12:35 PM 06/21/11 12:35 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | <********! Well, until Mary finds out then it's party over.
****! Is the language filter not working?
. . . .
poop...I guess it is still working.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Fearless_Rider]
#233894 06/21/11 02:25 PM 06/21/11 02:25 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | I've been watching this issue for some time now with quite a keen interest. In the not too distant future a new main and spinnaker is to be purchased.
Where to go, what to buy?
Easy answers (?) NACRA or EP directly... I have an aftermarket spinnaker from Whirlwind which is fantastically built and I use for non racing fun times.
N20 637 EP directly is not class legal either, the factory has to get their cut. EP direct would be aftermarket and would most likely be cheaper. So again to the folks who think it will cost more, How will it cost more? And I still ,seriously, would like to know how many regattas had a N-20 class start. It has to be more than just Spring Fever and performance nationals.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#233895 06/21/11 02:31 PM 06/21/11 02:31 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA |
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Mike Hill]
#233897 06/21/11 03:08 PM 06/21/11 03:08 PM |
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,490 On the Water P.M.
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490 On the Water | Slip 2 Ship
Note: Two boats chose to race with aftermarket sails and were excluded from the N20 class, and scored in the open spin fleet.
Philip USA #1006 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: P.M.]
#233898 06/21/11 03:12 PM 06/21/11 03:12 PM |
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,490 On the Water P.M.
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Posts: 2,490 On the Water | Not sure but I think The Sea Bouy had a class, as well as Juana's.
Philip USA #1006 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Mike Hill]
#233900 06/21/11 03:29 PM 06/21/11 03:29 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | didn't the N20 fleet go through something like this with the rudders? Did they not eventually accept a different design, with positive feedback from the class (I still like the old ones, but that's because I never was that fast)
I sailed both light and heavy teams on that boat, but always thought there was a bit too much draft in the main (maybe it was just my main 279 & 501). Maybe it was because we could never flatten it out as well as I could on the 18s.
I never figured out which spin cut worked best but I wasn't much into endurance racing (T-500, Worrell, GT300).
I think the consensus is that there is nothing much wrong with the platform the way it is, but minor changes in the sailplan could noticably improve the sailing parameters. Am I correct?
Are these new cuts so much faster that the original designs would totally be skunked if sailed against each other?
Of those individuals who have dropped big money on various sails/recuts, would they be willing to share their data to help the "class" properly evaluate a change in sailplan specs?
Is the class trying to "regain" the moniker of fastest production beachcat? Or just trying to make the boat easier and more affordable to operate?
Jay
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: pitchpoledave]
#233903 06/21/11 04:28 PM 06/21/11 04:28 PM |
Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS Capt_Cardiac
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Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS | you mean the performance sails on the Aluminum mast? SMOD right?
Capt Cardiac Ocean Springs Yacht Club Sailor Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#233905 06/21/11 04:40 PM 06/21/11 04:40 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums OP
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Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | The idea behind my original post was to let N20 owners know that this spin was a great deal better than the original and where they could get it. Plus some feedback from youguys about going this route.
There really is no more "top talent" in this class anyway, they've all gone to F18, aside from some of the distance racers like Steve Lohmyer and Jay Sonlenkar.
Last edited by TeamChums; 06/21/11 04:43 PM.
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#233906 06/21/11 04:42 PM 06/21/11 04:42 PM |
Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS Capt_Cardiac
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Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS | Schurr Sails in Pensacola has at least 3 versions of mains and spins. Jib is the same cut. Getting the specs would be as easy as asking the new owners, Mark Smith and Ken Altman. There is nothing to hide. I don't think there will be any success in coming up with a unified acceptance of a new sail. Keep the size of the sails the same and play with their design to maximize their efficiency.
Capt Cardiac Ocean Springs Yacht Club Sailor Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Capt_Cardiac]
#233907 06/21/11 04:44 PM 06/21/11 04:44 PM |
Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS Capt_Cardiac
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Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS | In regards to SMOD: 3 sets of rudders, at least 2 different self tacking jibs, 2 masts, 2+ mast rotators, EP sails, Performance Europe sails, what else. I know the list is longer...
Capt Cardiac Ocean Springs Yacht Club Sailor Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Capt_Cardiac]
#233908 06/21/11 05:01 PM 06/21/11 05:01 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | In regards to SMOD: 3 sets of rudders, at least 2 different self tacking jibs, 2 masts, 2+ mast rotators, EP sails, Performance Europe sails, what else. I know the list is longer... 3 different spinnaker launching systems, 2 different booms, 3 different trampolines,... And amazingly enough all those last gen mods(except the tramp) ended up on the Infusion. Ya think we were being used as a test bed or guinea pig, nah they wouldn't do that,(insert sarcastic smiley here)would they? R&D at our expense with full benefit to another class.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#233924 06/22/11 08:45 AM 06/22/11 08:45 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | 3 different spinnaker launching systems, 2 different booms, 3 different trampolines,...
And amazingly enough all those last gen mods(except the tramp) ended up on the Infusion. Ya think we were being used as a test bed or guinea pig, nah they wouldn't do that,(insert sarcastic smiley here)would they? R&D at our expense with full benefit to another class.
Todd, your paranoia is making you sound a lot like someone else we know. You know the tramp was changed to address the problem of the tramp pulling out of the track and was happily accepted by the class (by most). The jib track was changed beause the Tiger had a better solution and NACRA ripped it off. So technically the F18 class did the R&D on that one. 3 different laucher systems? I only remember two, anyway the T guys were showing us the midpole was the way to go so all the other spin enabled classes jumped on it, the T class gets credit for that one. Besides the carbon endpole snuffer was $1000 just for the pole, the midpole solution is a whole lot less $$ and a better solution (good thing, right?) Now the rudders. The gen 2 rudders were spefically created for the NACRA F18 because you couldn't stear the boat with gen 1 rudders. The gen 3 rudders were again created for the NACRA F18 basically to follow what the Tiger and Cap were doing. So again, R&D credit F18, benifit N20. Personally the gen 1 rudders on the N20 are perfect! It's tough to find a more powered up better balanced rig than the N20 and if you're having problem changing direction with the gen 1 rudders on the N20 it aint the rudders fault. Mornin Sunshine.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: David Ingram]
#233929 06/22/11 09:25 AM 06/22/11 09:25 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | I thought his point was ... WHY STOP NOW.... don't pull the OD is god card. You expect rudders to last the lifetime of the boat and in a manufacture class you would not expect to upgrade ... But you did. You expect to change racing sails every three years... SO WHY STOP NOW when all of the High Tech race boats continue to evolve!
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: David Ingram]
#233942 06/22/11 01:28 PM 06/22/11 01:28 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | <**** and alot of other folks either don't see it or are OK with it. Dingusoldmanius, did you get your Infusion Mk2 yet? I guess, let me know when you sell your C-2.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#233948 06/22/11 04:27 PM 06/22/11 04:27 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | do they make new N20's or is this a custom-type order? Since they don't really "die" (pretty much could be said for all plastic boats these days), are you trying to build the class by resurrecting inactive boats, or generate enough demand to resume manufacture?
Jay
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#233949 06/22/11 04:38 PM 06/22/11 04:38 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 733 Home is where the harness is..... Will_R
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Posts: 733 Home is where the harness is..... | No dog in the fight, but... why not jump in?? ;-)
As someone who is shopping sail makers for a ~25m^2 spinnaker now, I can say that a better kite can easily be had with an up to date shape for a couple hundred less than the OD I/N20 sails.
Hobie got it right with their F18 sails. Those sails are made in Europe and field tested in world class events. If the boat doesn't win, people don't buy. If the sails suck, the platform suffers. Here, the N20 is all alone since there isn't an official F20 class. For those that mention the EU N20 sails for the N20, they're different sizes (smaller) than the US sails. (that may have changed?... will have to look) So, if the class is booming, who cares a/b the sails so long as you're OD b/c everyone is "the same". "The same" b/c they weren't, some were good, some weren't as much...
It's not like it was ~5 years ago, more of us have to play in the same sand box which validates this argument b/c of handicapping. I don't know if it would be a death nail like it was for the P19/MX, the platform is much better than that boat, however it's also quite a ways down the road to meeting it's maker....
p.s. I thought the gen 2 rudders were replaced b/c they couldn't cope with the CRAZY rake that were were throwing at them? I mean, a measurement half way down the blade was middle of the road.... ;-) | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: PTP]
#233965 06/23/11 08:04 AM 06/23/11 08:04 AM |
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,355 Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... RickWhite
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Posts: 3,355 Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... | This is similar to the start of the Wave Class of Hobie. We started the Intl Wave Class Assn, and made our own rules. You can buy sails and tramps that are very good quality and lower prices. Competition is the reason. Everything has to measasure in. Good part is you can have your sail cut flat (if you are light, sail in flat water and/or big air), or full (if you are heavy, sail in big seas and/or light air). Just take a look at our rules and constitution at www.waveclass.com and use that as a template. Rick | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: RickWhite]
#233978 06/23/11 10:09 AM 06/23/11 10:09 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums OP
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Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | Thanks Rick. I do think there needs to be a push again to form our own class. The "rumors" of new sails coming our (I think) was just to prevent us from doing this. The SanDiego crowd seems to be on the same page here with wanting to shop different sailmakers as long as they measure in. I really think the BS move with a "flatter cut spin" was just to get us to shut up.
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: TeamChums]
#233982 06/23/11 10:48 AM 06/23/11 10:48 AM |
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,490 On the Water P.M.
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Posts: 2,490 On the Water | I don't know what's going on in other regions of the country, but the new spins are fast. There is merit to them. At S2S, 4 of the class boats were sailing with new class sails. Charlie was sailing with a brand new Performance Sails spin on the Alum rig. He was beat downwind by Scott with the new cut EP spin ((sailing DDW for over 10 miles. The start was DDW with the kites up.) he was later passed on a reach by Charlie)). Mike was mixing it up also with a new EP spin, although he did not have it dialed in like Scott did. Remind you, this was the first time either of them had sailed the new EP spins, and were still trying to figure out luff tension, angles, etc. I was impressed to see him first to snuff the kite.
There is still some strength, a least on the Gulf Coast, in the class. The racing within the fleet was competitive and tight, even after several miles into a distance race. Gotta say, racing is fun when it is boat against boat.
Philip USA #1006 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: P.M.]
#233984 06/23/11 11:28 AM 06/23/11 11:28 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums OP
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Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | So, you guys are ok with letting Charlie race in the N20 class with a totally different rig? Just cause it's from PC? Different cut sails including a spin that hoists to a different point on the mast but not a spin that is the same size and hoists to the SAME point as factory?
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: TeamChums]
#233985 06/23/11 11:43 AM 06/23/11 11:43 AM |
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,490 On the Water P.M.
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Posts: 2,490 On the Water | This is another festering pimple on the butt. I don't like it, and it is what it is, and I don't like . . . . the fact that I didn't buy that boat.
The aluminum wing mast rig is a different animal, and deserves its own thread. Good on Charlie, he made sure it was certified before he bought it. I'm off to a lunch meeting. . .
Philip USA #1006 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: P.M.]
#233987 06/23/11 12:32 PM 06/23/11 12:32 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | One solution is create a new Nacra 20 level rated class. It would include: Stock boats approved by Performance Stock boats with new sticks and sails approved by Performance Modified N20's with custom sails that measure into the stock sail plan.
Get a new guesstimate from Portsmouth/PHRF for the new class and carry on. The Nacra 6.0's did this with the listing of the N6.0 with the NE chute.
For each event on the schedule... let the registered boats politic with each other as to what the class will be. You assume that everyone wants the largest possible class to race with wand will sort it out prior to the starts. Back in the day, the hobie sailors would get a new sail and then send it off for a recut to get what they wanted. The racers let this slide because it made for better racing. I personally never saw a protest over.... Your sail was recut...blah... DSQ!
Forget about class sponsored development... the rest of the world shops for a sailmaker that will deliver fast sails and good customer service individually. Your sort through the hype and BS from each sailmaker and buy what you want. When you get the sail and mast to match your crew weight and sailing style... You are VERY VERY HAPPY. Its a fun part of the game.
We got a new North #1 for the J35.. Put it up for the first time and it sucked... Lots of experience on the boat and we pulled every string combination we could think of...sucked... put the old one back on the next day and we were back up into 3rd... a month later the sailmaker came out.... Tweaks that we did not make later.... the sail looks perfect and is fast. My point.... service is an essential factor in what you purchase!
You are buying a sail design, cloth, construction quality and a service. It's part of the game.
Just organize the game to be fair ... label the class properly and move on.
Rick White did not emphasize this key point... the slang is to speak of the "WAVE" class but in fact... they have a distinct class name from the HCA Wave class. It is in fact a level rated class that includes the stock wave.
(We would never have known that the GT300 N20 class was actually a level rated N20 class prior to your post)
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#233988 06/23/11 12:54 PM 06/23/11 12:54 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | The 6.0NA went from a non-spin to a spinnaker configuration so it really required a different portsmouth number. We're not talking about as big of a potential speed increase here (maybe 3 to 5% around the course?).
I also doubt that dividing the already small Nacra 20 class into 3 subdivisions is going to help anything. Simple is better...if opening up the sails is the answer, do it for all and change the rules. Pandora's box is already well open since there are already a large number of boats with non-nacra sails. There's no point in fighting the trend...open it, let the ratings go where they will, and hope the class continues to live on. Handicap ratings really aren't the subject. The subtext here is that the Nacra 20 sailors feel like their boats should be able to keep up with F18s around the course so they want to be able to develop the sails to do so...they also want to be able to buy sails at around the same (less expensive) price point as the F18 teams.
Personally, I was not in favor of opening the sails as a Nacra 20 owner - I preferred the one design philosophy. However, the train is already on that track and you might as well stay in the passenger compartment instead of the caboose.
Compared to the demise of the 6.0, the 20 does have something still going for it. There is not a relative competing 20 footer around. F18 has drawn some sailors away but there are still those that will always stay with the 20 footer. There will still be a need for manufacturer support for the class which will be harder to maintain if the class breaks into it's own entity and chooses to buy boat components elsewhere and people don't buy new boats.
I also don't think that the new boat prices we are seeing with the Formula 18 and Nacra 20 will be able to sustain themselves. I could buy a new boat when they were $14k but the prices have far exceeded inflation (and my wage if I want to keep having a newish truck and to maintain my home)...hopefully they will self adjust back to a more reasonable level (sub $20k). This is what will keep the Nacra 20 class alive.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Jake]
#233989 06/23/11 01:45 PM 06/23/11 01:45 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | I also doubt that dividing the already small Nacra 20 class into 3 subdivisions is going to help anything. Simple is better...if opening up the sails is the answer, do it for all and change the rules. Pandora's box is already well open since there are already a large number of boats with non-nacra sails. There's no point in fighting the trend...open it, let the ratings go where they want, and hope the class continues to live on. My point... use the name Nacra 20 Level Class as opposed to Intl Nacra 20 One Design Class. Darline included the NE version because it made life easier for scorekeepers and sailors for the rating to be published in the table as opposed to using the adjustments each time. This addition to the table would be the same thing. Put the level rule down on paper.... in short order... it will be the N20 class in common usage (See GT300) .... and we will know that it is a level rated class (or not care) ... a slightly different flavor then the Intl One design N20 class. When a class has this sentiment expressed. This is another festering pimple on the butt. I don't like it, and it is what it is, and I don't like It's time to get things clearly stated.... You may not like it. but people won't be surprised about that pimple in the level rated class. In a portsmouth race... If you are stock N20... you can register as Intl N20.... or as the Level N20. In SCHRS or Texel ratings.... your level rating would be identical to the OD rating so long as the level rule nailed the measured parameters down. Remember, the two sail Classic Tornado rig does not have a class any longer.. The T Class changed the rules to three sails along with many other changes. The ratings tables renamed the boat to the Classic Tornado as a service to the sailors and scorekeepers. Chris A souped up his Nacra 6.0.... He would send me a list of configurations and ratings depending on what he would finally register that day. PIA.... I hope the local N20 fleet lands on the level rated square... makes life easier. CRIS????
Last edited by Mark Schneider; 06/23/11 02:14 PM.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Jake]
#233996 06/23/11 05:18 PM 06/23/11 05:18 PM | MN3
Unregistered
| MN3
Unregistered | hopefully they will self adjust back to a more reasonable level (sub $20k) Thats being REALLY hopeful
Last edited by MN3; 06/23/11 05:22 PM.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Jake]
#234014 06/24/11 08:45 AM 06/24/11 08:45 AM |
Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 678 Palm Beach County TheManShed
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Posts: 678 Palm Beach County | I also don't think that the new boat prices we are seeing with the Formula 18 and Nacra 20 will be able to sustain themselves. I could buy a new boat when they were $14k but the prices have far exceeded inflation (and my wage if I want to keep having a newish truck and to maintain my home)...hopefully they will self adjust back to a more reasonable level (sub $20k). This is what will keep the Nacra 20 class alive. I think Jake has kind of hit the nail on the head for catamarans in general. To get into beach cat racing it cost 20 – 30 grand for a boat that will be outdated almost as fast as the last computer you bought. The cost factor is what keeps our younger generation out of our sport gone are the days when you can buy a new boat for under $5,000, $10,000, $15,000, $20,000, $30,000? ……… One thing that got me about some of the organized races it that they were “brand” specific ok that as good for the manufacture but bad for the owner. Once that type of boat is passé in terms of design or what the manufactures wants to push or further develop leaves the owners hanging in the hands of the company. Class racing when all is equal is fun and a sailor can excel on their skill. The Portsmouth handicap-based rating system as great although I don’t think anybody will ever agree on the rating that their actual boat receives. I sailed once for a Portsmouth and the game was to just beat, barely, the other manufactures boat in the same size and price range for bragging rights. But besides the business aspect an open class that builders can develop a boat with new ideas, designs, and materials is good for sailing in general. That is why I see the F16, F18, ect class growing.
Last edited by TheManShed; 06/24/11 08:49 AM. Reason: hmmm
Mike Shappell www.themanshed.comTMS-20 Builder G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat NACRA 5.2 - early 70's | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: TheManShed]
#234041 06/24/11 05:21 PM 06/24/11 05:21 PM |
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 1,403 Ventucky Red
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Posts: 1,403 | I can rattle off a few other one design classed that allow two or three different sail makers into the rule book, why not here?
I am in the process of buying a new job for my 20 and as much as I like the EP I can find myself spend twice of what I spent on a 5.8NA jib a few years back - hence going to another local sail maker. BTW - has Portsmouth looked at re-rating the Inter 20?
Last edited by Ventucky Red; 06/24/11 05:22 PM.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Ventucky Red]
#234080 06/27/11 08:54 AM 06/27/11 08:54 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | I think we're all hyping equipment over sailor skill so much that we're discouraging participation altogether.
People entering the catsailing arena get sticker shock from the pimped out new boats, and are beat down by folk who say that it's all about this new cordage, that new sail cut, or Ding's "wonder-windex" at the masthead.
New sailors are scared to get out and sail regattas for fear of being killed by the newest "go-fast" item or (worse) pounded into submission by other people screaming obscure rule numbers at them.
I think the reality still is sailor skill and familiarity (local knowledge), as I'm sure we've all seen Randy, Matt (all of them), Robbie and others sail Optis faster than the rest of us sail Tornados. But that's not what sells new boats....
So, let the dealers promote the boats. The classes should promote sailor skill development. Except for the very elite, we're all out there to have fun with this (expensive) hobby and toss friendly smack around
Jay
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#234085 06/27/11 09:52 AM 06/27/11 09:52 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 126 Northern Virginia SoggyCheetoh
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Posts: 126 Northern Virginia | Actually I think the Nacra20 sailors are simply getting tired of having to buy poor quality, high priced equipment to remain "class legal". If EP and Nacra could just make consistently cut sails, I could get behind Tad's desire to keep the Nacra20 fleet SMOD. But I've bought plenty of sails from EP over the years for my Nacra20 and they've all been different. Not just a little different, but wow, is this the right sail different. I've heard the "sails stretch" argument, so your old sail won’t match up with your new sail, but that fails to explain, 2 brand new spinnakers being delivered within days of each other that were drastically different sail cuts. Neither of which matched any of the previously owned spinnakers for the boat. Out of the 5 spins I had for the boat, only 1 was worth a damn, but according to the Nacra20 rules, I wasn't allowed to get them recut, so them I’m left trying to retune the boat for a sub standard sail that I paid out the nose for. Is that really in the spirit of SMOD? It goes even further though. I ordered a new tramp a few years back and was looking forward to having the new side laced design over the original "only tighten it from the back design". Well low and behold, my boat had 12 anchor points on the rear beam, but the new tramp had different number of attachment points on it causing none of the anchor points to match up? WTF? Really? Thanks Nacra.... Or how about the midpole snuffer hoop, that was designed for the Nacra F18, but is the only legal mid pole option for the Nacra20. Problem is, the hoop is too small for the size of kite. Does it work? Sure, but it sucks buoy racing with it. I'm all for racing one design, if all the equipment is the same, but the reality of the situation is, none of the sails I got from EP were the same cut, so it's not a fair and level playing field. Unfortunately it's all too little too late in my eyes. The class is dead, the boats are wearing out, new boats aren’t coming onto the scene, a lot of the top talent has left for the F18s and distance racing doesn’t seem to be as popular as it used to be.
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[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#234090 06/27/11 10:38 AM 06/27/11 10:38 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 141 mini
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Posts: 141 | I think we're all hyping equipment over sailor skill so much that we're discouraging participation altogether.
People entering the catsailing arena get sticker shock from the pimped out new boats, and are beat down by folk who say that it's all about this new cordage, that new sail cut, or Ding's "wonder-windex" at the masthead.
New sailors are scared to get out and sail regattas for fear of being killed by the newest "go-fast" item or (worse) pounded into submission by other people screaming obscure rule numbers at them.
I think the reality still is sailor skill and familiarity (local knowledge), as I'm sure we've all seen Randy, Matt (all of them), Robbie and others sail Optis faster than the rest of us sail Tornados. But that's not what sells new boats....
So, let the dealers promote the boats. The classes should promote sailor skill development. Except for the very elite, we're all out there to have fun with this (expensive) hobby and toss friendly smack around Any new sailor is going to get waxed jumping onto any boat. Make that a much worse beating trying to jump on a spin rigged performance boat, 16 – 18 – 20 etc. A lot of the current racers have years and have moved to the newer more complex boats just to keep their interest in the sport, so any new blood has to be willing to go through a pretty long period of “sucking” What I do agree with Jay, is forums and beach talk get way too caught up with the technical aspects of things and this does hurt the sport. The new guy who is already taking a beating feels they can buy results with “new” gear or some magic rig setting and this just does not happen, so then they fee cheated. Too many feel they can buy results, and that is the discouraging beyond just the learning curve. | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: SoggyCheetoh]
#234091 06/27/11 10:39 AM 06/27/11 10:39 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 141 mini
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Posts: 141 | Actually I think the Nacra20 sailors are simply getting tired of having to buy poor quality, high priced equipment to remain "class legal". If EP and Nacra could just make consistently cut sails, I could get behind Tad's desire to keep the Nacra20 fleet SMOD. But I've bought plenty of sails from EP over the years for my Nacra20 and they've all been different. Not just a little different, but wow, is this the right sail different. I've heard the "sails stretch" argument, so your old sail won’t match up with your new sail, but that fails to explain, 2 brand new spinnakers being delivered within days of each other that were drastically different sail cuts. Neither of which matched any of the previously owned spinnakers for the boat. Out of the 5 spins I had for the boat, only 1 was worth a damn, but according to the Nacra20 rules, I wasn't allowed to get them recut, so them I’m left trying to retune the boat for a sub standard sail that I paid out the nose for. Is that really in the spirit of SMOD? It goes even further though. I ordered a new tramp a few years back and was looking forward to having the new side laced design over the original "only tighten it from the back design". Well low and behold, my boat had 12 anchor points on the rear beam, but the new tramp had different number of attachment points on it causing none of the anchor points to match up? WTF? Really? Thanks Nacra.... Or how about the midpole snuffer hoop, that was designed for the Nacra F18, but is the only legal mid pole option for the Nacra20. Problem is, the hoop is too small for the size of kite. Does it work? Sure, but it sucks buoy racing with it. I'm all for racing one design, if all the equipment is the same, but the reality of the situation is, none of the sails I got from EP were the same cut, so it's not a fair and level playing field. Unfortunately it's all too little too late in my eyes. The class is dead, the boats are wearing out, new boats aren’t coming onto the scene, a lot of the top talent has left for the F18s and distance racing doesn’t seem to be as popular as it used to be. The 20 class has always been a manufacturer’s run organization. You buy in and you take what the manufacturer supplies/decides. If you want something different then somebody needs to step up and take over the class and separate it from the builder. Step up or shut up. | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: SoggyCheetoh]
#234105 06/27/11 01:42 PM 06/27/11 01:42 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 733 Home is where the harness is..... Will_R
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Posts: 733 Home is where the harness is..... | I think some of you are missing the point.
The N20 is the preferred platform for some sailors and some of those sailors are tired of the discrepancy between the sails on other platforms (F18 for example) and the N20.
Since the catsailing world is more open than it used to be (think hobie or nacra only events), OD racing is shrinking outside of formula classes (big surprise...). It's hard to live with sails that an owner feels are subpar and overpriced.
I'm not disagreeing with "It's not the tools, it's the carpenter", however between boats that might need their ratings adjusted and being hamstringed (to a point) by sails, I see exactly where they are coming from. If the F18's are running a flatter Spi that allows them to reach higher and the N20's are getting hammered on open fleet racing b/c of it, I'd be frustrated too.
I also see the SMOD argument, however when there isn't an OD class, now you're just left playing alone with a fleet of boats with potentially better sail design at their disposal. It doesn't make business sense for Performance to open up sails to the class, nor does it make sense for them to invest money into a rig where they might not recoup it. Not to mention, it cuts support for their dealer network by removing them from the sail buying loop.
If I were to set the rules, I'd lean towards Bob's suggestion. Set a class rule and measurement standard, talk to some lofts and get them to certify that every sail for the class meets X rule. If it comes out of A,B,C lofts and has the stamp that it meets X rule, you're done.
You could meet a couple of goals that make the boat more attractive. Have your sails cut to meet your crew size, a more competitive suit of sails for fleet racing while potentially driving costs down.
Last edited by Will_R; 06/27/11 01:47 PM.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Will_R]
#234117 06/27/11 03:50 PM 06/27/11 03:50 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | Is Performance a slave to EP?
Or could they do what you suggest and spec out a sailplan and "award" a 3 year deal to a certain manufacturer who turns out the best product & service at the best price?
Since many of you buy on 3-5 year cycles, and you're not really changing the sail design, would that help keep prices in line?
Jay
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: pitchpoledave]
#234123 06/27/11 05:49 PM 06/27/11 05:49 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Regarding EP, that is why all the new Nacras have Performance sails which are top notch, so this problem has already been solved. Wrong. Only if you are buying sails for an aluminum sticked N-20 do you get or want Performance sails, that's what they were cut for. Carbon stick 20s still get EP sails. The main reason all the new Nacras(Carbon 20s and Infusions) have Peformance sails is because Peter Vink owns Performance sails as well as a chunk of performance catamarans.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: pitchpoledave]
#234157 06/28/11 11:48 AM 06/28/11 11:48 AM |
Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 271 Atlanta, Ga BLR_0719
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Posts: 271 Atlanta, Ga | For the 20 there are now two rigs and two different cuts of sails. One rig/sail plan is newer, innovated, and faster. After all the discussions about where to go with the 20 class, in the end, it was the factory that crapped on the OD concept.
No matter what position you hold there is an incontestable unfairness that a person may show up with an entirely innovated rig and set of sails and race legally, while a person who shows up with the exact same cut of the classic sail may be protested because it was not made by the factory.
It seems the debate is no longer about how to keep the class OD, but is now more about how to get back to OD.
Last edited by BLR_0719; 06/28/11 11:49 AM.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: BLR_0719]
#234159 06/28/11 11:51 AM 06/28/11 11:51 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | It seems the debate is no longer about how to keep the class OD, but is now more about how to get back to OD.
I would guess the "easy" way would be to buy a sh*load of boats and let the class make up their mind. Anyone got a few million laying in the couch cusions?
Jay
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#234161 06/28/11 11:57 AM 06/28/11 11:57 AM |
Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 271 Atlanta, Ga BLR_0719
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Posts: 271 Atlanta, Ga | Why not just set standard sail measurements and allow them to be made by any sail maker.
1) It allows for people to purchase new sails and "catch up" for far less money than if forced to go through EP.
2) A standard measurement prevents people from buying a bunch of different cuts to use in different conditions. | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: pitchpoledave]
#234183 06/28/11 07:38 PM 06/28/11 07:38 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC Tornado
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Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC | I think making a decision as to how to go forward with sails based on how N20's perform against F18's in distance racing/GT300 is wrong headed. The Gt300 is mostly close reaching. F18's do well on this point of sail against the fully cut N20 sailplans. The DPN's are setup for regualr roud the bouy W/L courses...so of course using those ratings in the 99% reachings distance race is doomed from the get go.
In my experience a well sailed N20 beats a well sailed F18 round the bouys using the current sail plans. For distance racing perhaps a better approach is to look at other ratings systems that don't rely on course types (Texel?).
Mike Dobbs Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Tornado]
#234184 06/28/11 08:01 PM 06/28/11 08:01 PM |
Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 606 League City, TX flumpmaster
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Posts: 606 League City, TX | For distance racing perhaps a better approach is to look at other ratings systems that don't rely on course types (Texel?).
Texel is semi empirical and will be tuned using a lot of buoy racing data. Same as portsmouth number really. Tybee used SCHRS when I did it. N-20s still waxed boat for boat on reaching.... | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Tornado]
#234193 06/29/11 08:22 AM 06/29/11 08:22 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums OP
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Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | The Gt300 is mostly close reaching. Only one year (05) did we have any close reaching on the last day. Other than that, it's usually deep on day one, then beam reaching on the rest. My point is more to get sails that are more updated than 15 year old designs. The platform is still great. We'll never be able to compete against the F18 number with the number we have. Atleast let the sails evolve. Get that T'nader out here and do the race Mikee. Do I need to drive it out here for you? I will you know...like Miami (that was a fun trip).
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: TeamChums]
#234196 06/29/11 08:40 AM 06/29/11 08:40 AM |
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 72 Rockledge Cay, FL Fearless_Rider
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Posts: 72 Rockledge Cay, FL | I haven't done any real cost comparisons... NACRA Main = $? Performance Main =$? EP Main = $? I certainly hope this thread didnt contribute to Trey selling his N20 currently on the classifieds. anyhow, the boat can be so much fun... Daytona Gaulden Reed Summer Sizzler!
BTW, my BBQ Rocks!
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Fearless_Rider]
#234202 06/29/11 09:54 AM 06/29/11 09:54 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | even with the "old" sails, it's still got more potential than I could ever get out of it.. sailor skill
but I also think a slightly flatter main and spin might make it easier to handle in heavy air with more "squirt" than "heel"
Jay
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: TeamChums]
#234205 06/29/11 10:35 AM 06/29/11 10:35 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | We'll never be able to compete against the F18 number with the number we have. Atleast let the sails evolve. The P'cola boys and girls don't seem to have a problem putting it to the F18's. If you don't like getting beat by F18's then you better stay away from central FL because the odds are you'll get beat boat for boat by a 13 year old girl driving an F16 or her punk a$$ 10 year old brother.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: TeamChums]
#234208 06/29/11 12:51 PM 06/29/11 12:51 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC Tornado
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Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC | So let's say you go with newly developed sails...over time this improves the racing results...leading to a lowered DPN...bingo you're back with the same corrected out time issue.
I agree the N20 should get new sails and open up to other makers...just not for the reason of trying to beat F18's in specific course situations. Never liked strict single manufacturer one-designs in principle for many of the reasons being expressed on this thread.
Mike Dobbs Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Tornado]
#234209 06/29/11 01:04 PM 06/29/11 01:04 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | I certainly hope this thread didnt contribute to Trey selling his N20 currently on the classifieds. Was it something I said?
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Fearless_Rider]
#234210 06/29/11 02:10 PM 06/29/11 02:10 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | I haven't done any real cost comparisons... NACRA Main = $? Performance Main =$? EP Main = $? I certainly hope this thread didnt contribute to Trey selling his N20 currently on the classifieds. anyhow, the boat can be so much fun... Daytona Gaulden Reed Summer Sizzler! Maybe Trey contributed to the cause of this thread.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#234244 07/01/11 01:03 AM 07/01/11 01:03 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,459 Annapolis,MD Keith
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Posts: 1,459 Annapolis,MD | Whose to say that someone with deep pockets couldn't go out and go buy about 5 spinnakers and pick the best one for the event? It's all ready been done in the Nacra 20 class. The consistency is far enough off that, that was a standard practice among the well sponsored teams in the Worrell and to a lesser extent the Tybee. Beat me to it! In our experience the sails (not just the spins) have been so different that calling it OD is pretty iffy. | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#234245 07/01/11 01:05 AM 07/01/11 01:05 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,459 Annapolis,MD Keith
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Posts: 1,459 Annapolis,MD | Don' see how changing the sails is going to do anything except increase costs for owners. The square rigger sailors probably thought that for a little while too. It's progress. The sailplan is 15 years old with no development.If you don't buy new sails anyway, what difference does it make.You can't be competitive with old rags. New sails comes with being competitive, no matter who cuts them. It's part of the racing expense. You can DEFINITELY find cheaper sails than the factory EP, that perform better. So you actually save money. The Factory attempt at a new kite is either top secret or an abysmal failure. If you would like the N-20 to be relegated to the "also ran" lake crusier with 6 people on it, then you are getting your wish.people are buying the used boats because they are relatively cheap compared to the options not because of a 1D philosophy or class control. I've raced/owned the N-20 since 2000 when it was pushed on us for the Worrell.I think it deserves more of an effort, if it means being a one man class so be it. It's a distance racer anyway. As a class we should build on our strenghts and our 1D philosophy, not try to chase other boats. Seriously ,Good luck with that. Does anybody have an idea how many regattas had Class starts for the N-20? 1 Spring Fever 2 3 WRSC Spring Regatta. | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Keith]
#234250 07/01/11 07:42 AM 07/01/11 07:42 AM |
Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS Capt_Cardiac
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Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS | But wait... you joined the SMOD to save money didn't you! you can't go and buy another boat so you can have newer developed sails that's flies in the face of all that is sacred in SMOD!!! That would cost you more money!!!! That money argument is nonsense. At some point you have to get new sails to remain competitive. Why not buy better sails that cost less? Keep the 20 and get new sails from the sailmaker of your choice. If I've learned anything about sail development it ain't the sails that make the boat it's the sailor. If you love your boat, stick with it and have a great time. Get the sails you want and enjoy the new development ride on the Nacra 20 platform.
If the sails really do make that much of a difference then you would expect to start moving up in the fleet. Nothing, I said nothing, changes peoples minds like success.
Schurr Sails in Pensacola, FL have several new designs for the Nacra 20. I've seen them first hand and will be competing against them this weekend. I'll let you know what I think and whether i'll be buying my new set from Schurr.
Capt Cardiac Ocean Springs Yacht Club Sailor Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Capt_Cardiac]
#234257 07/01/11 10:54 AM 07/01/11 10:54 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums OP
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Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | The spin I got from Glaser was about $1350 (I'm pretty sure). If we do Tybee next year, I'll get a Nacra class one. I guess my point is that the N20 class in the GT300 is in support of different sail makers as long as they are the same sq footage. It's a great proving ground for new sails.
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Capt_Cardiac]
#234259 07/01/11 11:18 AM 07/01/11 11:18 AM |
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 887 Crofton, MD Chris9
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Posts: 887 Crofton, MD | Adjust for N20 - move forward
Maybe we could get out local sailmaker to figure out what the numbers should be...
B.4. SAILS SAIL PLAN The sail plan comprises a mainsail, a jib and a spinnaker. The sails shall be made of any polyester material for main and jib, and of nylon and polyester woven only for spinnakers, and shall fit in a bag of normal dimensions. B.4.1. MAINSAIL B.4.1.1. The mainsail shall have a surface area of maximum 17.00m² including the mast. B.4.1.2. No part of the sail shall be above the upper mast band. B.4.1.3. The aft head point of the mainsail shall not be above the head point. B.4.1.4. Maximum Upper width at upper leech point 1500 mm from head point : 1290 mm B.4.1.5. Maximum Top width : 1000 mm B.4.1.4 & B.4.1.5: Sails with larger measurements can be measured and used until 01.01.2009. B.4.2. JIB It shall be possible to roll the jib around the stay. From 01.03.07, the roller reefer unit is optional. Any Long Distance race manager or organizer wanting the use of such device for safety reasons shall mention it in the Notice of Race, otherwise sailors may sail with the roller reefer as an optional aid. The leech shall not be convex. The head shall be not more than 50mm wide. There shall not be battens on the foot. The ISAF Equipment Rules of Sailing shall apply to jibs. 4.2.1. Two sail areas of jib are available as a function of the crew weight : 4.2.1.1. Crew categories of 115 to 150 kg : Maximum jib sail area : 3.45m² 4.2.1.2. Crew categories of more than 150 kg and crews opting for the over 140 kg changing of category (see B.3.3) : Maximum Jib sail area : 4.15m² 4.2.2. For safety purpose, it is mandatory for the crew to be able, when racing, and in normal position on the trampoline, to furl the jib around the stay. The crew may be asked to demonstrate such ability at any time. Formula 18 Class Rules – updated 1st July 2007 6 4.2.3. The maximum diameter of the furled jib shall be 100 mm. 4.2.4. The maximum number of jib battens will be 4. The battens and/or the batten pockets length shall not exceed a distance of 250 mm normal from the leech. See diagram. From 1st March 2007, fully battened jibs are allowed. Those may have a maximum of three battens which shall have no moving parts and be made of glass fibre, with a maximum width of 25 mm. 4.2.5. The jib tack shall not be fixed below the highest point of the bridle wire. 4.2.6. Self tacking jib devices are allowed. B.4.3. SPINNAKER Two sail areas of spinnakers are permitted as a function of crew weight. Crews of 115 kg to 150 kg : Maximum surface area for the spinnaker : 19.00m². Crews of more than 150 kg and crews over 140 kg changing of category (see B.3.3) : Maximum surface area for the spinnaker : 21.00m². Battens and stiffening devices, except textile leech lines, are not permitted. Spinnaker retrieving systems, which may be attached to the bowsprit, are allowed, subject they comply with the general measurement F18 rules. Regarding the legality of carbon snuffer arrangements, a carbon ring is used on some North American snuffers, the spinnaker pole being aluminium. Such existing snuffers has been accepted under a grandfathering arrangement until 1 January 2007. Carbon is not permitted in the construction of new snuffers. B.4.4. LIMITED NUMBER OF SAILS One single suit of sails can be used for the whole duration of an event. B.5. MARKING All sails measured after 01/07/2007 shall have the following details clearly marked close to the tack point of the sail: The year of manufacture The loft of manufacture The cloth type used A unique serial number B.5.1. MARKING OF SAILS All the sails measured shall be marked with a colour sticker affixed near the clew on the starboard side. The sails corresponding to different weight categories of crew weight shall be identified by the following colour code : Jib Mainsail Spinnaker 3.45m² Green 17.00m² Pink 19.00m² Green Formula 18 Class Rules – updated 1st July 2007 7 4.15m² Pink 17.00m² Pink 21.00m² Pink The maximum permitted area shall be marked on the colour stickers. The actual measured area shall be marked on the Measurement Certificate. The area and the dimensions of the spinnaker (SL1, SL2, SMG, SF) shall be written in an indelible manner near the starboard tack.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Capt_Cardiac]
#234303 07/03/11 03:40 PM 07/03/11 03:40 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,459 Annapolis,MD Keith
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Posts: 1,459 Annapolis,MD | But wait... you joined the SMOD to save money didn't you! you can't go and buy another boat so you can have newer developed sails that's flies in the face of all that is sacred in SMOD!!! That would cost you more money!!!! That money argument is nonsense. At some point you have to get new sails to remain competitive. Why not buy better sails that cost less? Keep the 20 and get new sails from the sailmaker of your choice. If I've learned anything about sail development it ain't the sails that make the boat it's the sailor. If you love your boat, stick with it and have a great time. Get the sails you want and enjoy the new development ride on the Nacra 20 platform.
If the sails really do make that much of a difference then you would expect to start moving up in the fleet. Nothing, I said nothing, changes peoples minds like success.
Schurr Sails in Pensacola, FL have several new designs for the Nacra 20. I've seen them first hand and will be competing against them this weekend. I'll let you know what I think and whether i'll be buying my new set from Schurr.
Actually, we bought the boat to sail Tybee. I don't really care about the SMOD. I think perfectly good classes have been killed by the SMOD religion. Any money argument I'll make is that I'm not going to buy outdated sails this year if the new ones are coming out next year. That money argument is not nonsense, unless you have more money than sense. I've felt all along that having multiple manufacturers in the sail game would improve things. Go back through any posts I've had on the subject. If I get to do Tybee next year (and if the N-20 is still in) I'll be looking for a new legal set, whatever that is, and if it's SMOD so be it. It's time for new rags, good sailor or no. I'm merely inquiring about the status of the new factory sails and if anybody had any skinny on them. Anybody like the spin? As for loving the boat - the 20 is great, and it's paid for (which makes it greater). I don't love it so much that I would never consider another boat... | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Keith]
#234307 07/04/11 07:27 AM 07/04/11 07:27 AM |
Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS Capt_Cardiac
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Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS | Admittedly that was just a smart a$$ response aimed at the, "or is it time to go F-18" comment. personally i won't go F18 since i'm in the bonafide big boy club. we have all been holding on to the idea that NACRA is going to support development of the sails for the N20. i don't see it happening. I think we are on our own. I personally think an F20 box class is the way to go. You can buy a set of F18 sails for a Hobie Tiger that aren't from Hobie. You can sail them at every event accept the Hobie sponsored races. I don't have a problem with that. I'll bring out the Nacra sails for performance events.
Capt Cardiac Ocean Springs Yacht Club Sailor Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Capt_Cardiac]
#234309 07/04/11 07:37 AM 07/04/11 07:37 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | Box rule works fine for us. It isn't perfect, but what is? So far we aren't having the problems you guys are, knock wood.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Capt_Cardiac]
#234322 07/04/11 12:27 PM 07/04/11 12:27 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | I don't have a problem with that. I'll bring out the Nacra sails for performance events. Ah.... now the devil in the details. Somebody has to designate... This is a Performance N20 event...and this other event is Open Nacra 20. From Keith's perspective.... the only one that matters is the possible Tybee 500. Since it was cancelled this year... Chuck will only care about which rule gets the most boats.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#234340 07/04/11 05:28 PM 07/04/11 05:28 PM |
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 72 BadLatitude1337
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72 | So, you guys are ok with letting Charlie race in the N20 class with a totally different rig? Just cause it's from PC? Different cut sails including a spin that hoists to a different point on the mast but not a spin that is the same size and hoists to the SAME point as factory? OK with letting us race our class legal rig?? Technological development is what moves racing forward. Perhaps Chums would like to stay in the 70's and race Hobie 14s. The only way to continue NACRA 20 development is to open the class and use a box rule like the F18s, Performance isn't going to continue to support the class. It's time to make our own class rules. Also consider that the aluminum rig costs 4K and the carbon rig costs 10K, humm.
Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Capt_Cardiac]
#234342 07/04/11 05:46 PM 07/04/11 05:46 PM |
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 72 BadLatitude1337
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72 | Let's get together as soon as possible to work on the box rules. We'll bring our boat over soon for measurements. We can start with our sails, Schurr sails, and the EP sails and see what we come up with.
Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: BadLatitude1337]
#234354 07/04/11 10:31 PM 07/04/11 10:31 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | So, you guys are ok with letting Charlie race in the N20 class with a totally different rig? Just cause it's from PC? Different cut sails including a spin that hoists to a different point on the mast but not a spin that is the same size and hoists to the SAME point as factory? OK with letting us race our class legal rig?? Technological development is what moves racing forward. Perhaps Chums would like to stay in the 70's and race Hobie 14s. The only way to continue NACRA 20 development is to open the class and use a box rule like the F18s, Performance isn't going to continue to support the class. It's time to make our own class rules. Also consider that the aluminum rig costs 4K and the carbon rig costs 10K, humm. I think you've missed Chum's point. How about read the whole thread before you spout off. He's ( as am I) for advancement,without our collective noses as well as walletts up the factory's a$$. Your pissin' up the wrong rope.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#234365 07/05/11 09:04 AM 07/05/11 09:04 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 2,844 42.904444 N; 88.008586 W Todd_Sails
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844 42.904444 N; 88.008586 W | Now, I just might get one of the several N20's in my area after all! How about a F20 event, similiar to the F18's, platform (N6.0, H20, Myst?, etc.) all have to fit a set of box rules. Ya know, The link is here in the 20 ft forum about this, started by my freind Mike N., in TX. Here is the link to the thread in the F20 forum: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=206153#Post206153PS- I happened to be in Toronto, during the Can F18's last year. Misha won it on a local Tiger, with local crew(I think), (he did bring a set of his own sails). Did he win b/c of the sials? They had Major wind, to almost no wind, and he still won it. Was it his sails? I didn't think so.
F-18 Infusion #626- SOLD it!
'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Todd_Sails]
#234369 07/05/11 09:50 AM 07/05/11 09:50 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | my N20 went to Canada. Is it available? Sails #279 and #501 wouldn't mind getting that workhorse back and some crew to sail it..
Jay
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[Re: pitchpoledave]
#234379 07/05/11 10:19 AM 07/05/11 10:19 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Mischa's crew was Kevin Stittle, 4th in China on the Tornado, 2nd at the Tornado worlds..so his crew was very very good. And he brought his own sails and daggers. It was the F'in daggers... I KNEW IT!
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: David Ingram]
#234380 07/05/11 10:26 AM 07/05/11 10:26 AM |
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 72 BadLatitude1337
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72 | I did not miss the point at all!!! He said (So, you guys are ok with letting Charlie race in the N20 class with a totally different rig? Just cause it's from PC? Different cut sails including a spin that hoists to a different point on the mast but not a spin that is the same size and hoists to the SAME point as factory? ) I’m all for opening that class and letting anyone cut the sails. But I will also keep buying PC parts until there is a new class rule. So trying say I can or can’t sail with a class legal rig is just ludicrous!!!! [u][/u]
Last edited by BadLatitude1337; 07/05/11 10:50 AM.
Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: BadLatitude1337]
#234388 07/05/11 11:00 AM 07/05/11 11:00 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | I did not miss the point at all!!! He said (So, you guys are ok with letting Charlie race in the N20 class with a totally different rig? Just cause it's from PC? Different cut sails including a spin that hoists to a different point on the mast but not a spin that is the same size and hoists to the SAME point as factory? ) I’m all for opening that class and letting anyone cut the sails. But I will also keep buying PC parts until there is a new class rule. So trying say I can or can’t sail with a class legal rig is just ludicrous!!!! I think he was just pointing out the differences that are already present in the class. I believe you have the only N-20 like yours(alu mast ,perf.sails) correct me if I'm wrong, so unfortunately that gets used as an example of the inconsistencies in the supposed SMOD N-20 class.I don't think he's trying to keep you from racing it. As I see it you're completely 100% legit. I just think all the variations are BS for a SMOD class.It either is or it isn't. I also think pointing out the aluminum mast as an advancement, when it was brought forth so the factory could save a buck and wouldn't have to source,ship, and stock the carbon extrusion is misinformation.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#234391 07/05/11 11:42 AM 07/05/11 11:42 AM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | my N20 went to Canada. Is it available? Sails #279 and #501 wouldn't mind getting that workhorse back and some crew to sail it.. Stank, Mine might be available soon if you want to jump back in the class. | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: BadLatitude1337]
#234392 07/05/11 11:43 AM 07/05/11 11:43 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums OP
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OP
veteran
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | You did miss my point. I was illustrating the fact that those preaching "SMOD because everyone's on the same rig" were not all on the same rig when it came down to your boat. I WANT developement. PC isn't the way to go with it. Different sailmakers is. BTW, I'll likely be getting an alluminum rig for mine since it's a more evolved sail plan and mast. Maybe I'm missing your point. I wish we could all talk more in person about this because I think some people miss the meaning of what others are saying because they're reading it instead of hearing it.
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: BadLatitude1337]
#234396 07/05/11 01:36 PM 07/05/11 01:36 PM |
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 129 Austin, TX BoK
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member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 129 Austin, TX | Hmmm I'm wondering how the Nacra Carbon 20 SMOD is going to work out.....
Bo Kersey Corsair 31-1D 276 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: BadLatitude1337]
#234398 07/05/11 01:56 PM 07/05/11 01:56 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | i think there is like 5 or 6 alum masts in the states. if your looking for one i know KeySailing in pensacola has a alumm rig with sailes new in the box Any idea of the price? PM me if you're not comfortable posting it.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: BadLatitude1337]
#234402 07/05/11 02:30 PM 07/05/11 02:30 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums OP
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | if your looking for one i know KeySailing in pensacola has a alumm rig with sailes new in the box I just got wood! I would like to know a price, I am interested but I need to give Todd some $$ for the blue sail first. Should be coming next week Todd.
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#234466 07/06/11 12:08 PM 07/06/11 12:08 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | Stank,
Mine might be available soon if you want to jump back in the class.
A nice ride, that one is. I'm still not getting lighter, and there may be a few hands down in my neighborhood to help pull strings, so I may be one step closer to re-entering the sailing arena. Although string beyatch does have it's merits: Low cost of entry (just gear), ability to experience wide variety of boats and setups (sometimes in the same dang regatta ), great learning curve but you do have a few drawbacks: need earplugs and thick skin (for obscenities lobbed by driver), must be available at moment's notice (Tad's PM 6 hours before an event when I'm 5 hours away ), job uncertainty (especially if you're less than a top tier sailor), and getting that stupid blender to work while you're trimming the spinnaker from the wire.
Jay
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#234470 07/06/11 12:16 PM 07/06/11 12:16 PM |
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine ThunderMuffin
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655 Portland, Maine | Stank,
Mine might be available soon if you want to jump back in the class.
A nice ride, that one is. I'm still not getting lighter, and there may be a few hands down in my neighborhood to help pull strings, so I may be one step closer to re-entering the sailing arena. Although string beyatch does have it's merits: Low cost of entry (just gear), ability to experience wide variety of boats and setups (sometimes in the same dang regatta ), great learning curve but you do have a few drawbacks: need earplugs and thick skin (for obscenities lobbed by driver), must be available at moment's notice (Tad's PM 6 hours before an event when I'm 5 hours away ), job uncertainty (especially if you're less than a top tier sailor), and getting that stupid blender to work while you're trimming the spinnaker from the wire. Well, I was talking about selling mine due to that "job uncertainty" thing. | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#234508 07/07/11 09:02 AM 07/07/11 09:02 AM | MN3
Unregistered
| MN3
Unregistered | and getting that stupid blender to work while you're trimming the spinnaker from the wire. Solution: convince the skipper that shaken, not blended yields an equal product and allows you to concentrate on the spin, not the blend.... OR be a real pirate and simply drink rum (straight) | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Ventucky Red]
#234518 07/07/11 01:46 PM 07/07/11 01:46 PM |
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 139 Hernando, Florida Mlcreek
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member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 139 Hernando, Florida | I have a question; reading and listening to all the previous postings, along my own dealings with Performance, why would we care what they think? I mean if they aren't supporting us in parts, and new boats for the class. I maybe wrong, but kind of seems to be a one way road. Is this not about keeping the class alive, even though their intent is not to help? Just my 2 cents Thanks
Forrest
Forrest I-20 USA 645
" There ain't enough rum in the drum!"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: ]
#234519 07/07/11 01:56 PM 07/07/11 01:56 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | Solution: convince the skipper that shaken, not blended yields an equal product and allows you to concentrate on the spin, not the blend.... OR be a real pirate and simply drink rum (straight) Now, you know as well as I do that skippers can't take their rum straight. They have to have it all fru-fru blended, with fruit on a skewer and a little pink umbrella in it. They claim they're not savages like the knuckle-dragging neandertals they call crew
Jay
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[Re: Mlcreek]
#234521 07/07/11 01:58 PM 07/07/11 01:58 PM |
Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS Capt_Cardiac
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267 Ocean Springs, MS | I have a question; reading and listening to all the previous postings, along my own dealings with Performance, why would we care what they think? I mean if they aren't supporting us in parts, and new boats for the class. I maybe wrong, but kind of seems to be a one way road. Is this not about keeping the class alive, even though their intent is not to help? Just my 2 cents Thanks
Forrest We don't care what they think. Some people are hesistant to abandon the 'SMOD' of the N20. It is the only governing document at the moment. That needs to change. Its time for a NA F20 class to become viable. There are some very interesting documents on catsailor dating way back (2003) that outlined how to do this and I think its finally time for the masses to accept it. sail6000(Carl Roberts) wrote a great document here: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=26593He needs to get full credit for it. It is a little dated but in essence its spot on. Its time to move on folks.
Capt Cardiac Ocean Springs Yacht Club Sailor Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5 | | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Capt_Cardiac]
#234523 07/07/11 02:10 PM 07/07/11 02:10 PM |
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 139 Hernando, Florida Mlcreek
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 139 Hernando, Florida | If folks are feeling this way, then what is needed to do it and make the change. It appears that most aren't happy now. I mean, I'll never be in the same ball park as you guys, but if as long as these top notch guys are around to learn from, then lets do what it takes to keep them and bring more in.
Forrest I-20 USA 645
" There ain't enough rum in the drum!"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Mlcreek]
#234553 07/08/11 09:15 AM 07/08/11 09:15 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | your stuff's fast enough Forrest. You can make that sail as flat as a pancake. Don't know about the spin since we didn't fly it but I suspect you'd lose more ground blowing a tack/gybe or hoist/takedown on a short (bouy) course...
Technique and experience will get you 90% to the top of the heap. Technology could get you that last 10%...
Jay
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#234559 07/08/11 09:36 AM 07/08/11 09:36 AM |
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 139 Hernando, Florida Mlcreek
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 139 Hernando, Florida | Thanks Jay, but I suspect after looking at the other guys, my fat ole butt would do best to loose about 80 lbs to be faster also. I do have a question, since I pulled the strings last time, and pushed us off the sand bar, are you at the very least bringing the blender this time. I mean since I insulted the guys with the lunch pail from the boom,lets at the very least have something cold to drink.
Thanks
Forrest
Forrest I-20 USA 645
" There ain't enough rum in the drum!"
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: RickWhite]
#234566 07/08/11 10:12 AM 07/08/11 10:12 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Rick,
You should also point out that as the WAVE Class, you pull together a regatta schedule, you define the race class as the IWCA Waves, You publish it so that anyone can find your class and your events and your Wave sailors show up and go racing.
Getting the paperwork sorted out was just half the battle! Great job in getting it all done... year after year!
Final point, any NAHCA Wave class member is fully compliant in your IWCA class regatta.... just as any Performance N20 would fit into a new Formula N20 rule (or whatever).
Like you, I hope that they can revive the class and fill that niche in our sailing scene.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#234598 07/09/11 03:00 PM 07/09/11 03:00 PM |
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 72 BadLatitude1337
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72 | We will be doing sum work in getting this moving forward tomorrow. I will Let you know what we come up with
Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
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