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#234957 - 07/19/11 03:36 PM F20na Box Rule Set  
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Capt_Cardiac Offline
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Class Rules for F20 North American Class:
18 July 2011

The F20NA is Box Rule Set designed to foster the development and progression of the 20 foot racing catamaran fleet by permitting manufacturers and owners to institute improvements within existing fleets and encouraging development and innovation within the parameters of the Class.


1. Intent and Objective

1.1. The intent of the F20NA Class is to open the platform and sail plan to improvements by providing maximum and minimum parameters for the class to develop within. It is specifically the intent of the class to permit any modifications that are not specifically prohibited by these rules within the spirit of the class.

1.2. The F20NA Class is open to any two-hulled sailing boat with essentially duplicate or mirror image hulls, fixed in parallel or near parallel positions.

2. Overall Length
2.1. Any new F20NA build shall comply with a 20 foot overall length requirement. The length shall be measured between perpendiculars to the extremities of the hulls with the catamaran in her normal trim. The measurement shall be taken parallel to the centerline of the craft and shall exclude rudder hangings.

2.1 “Grandfather”—Any legacy “20 ft.” catamaran, defined as a catamaran >=19 feet and <=20’6”, built on or before the adoption of this Class shall be permitted in the F20NA Class provided that it otherwise meets the Class requirements.

3. The sail plan shall consist of 1 mainsail, 1 jib and 1 spinnaker that shall be carried aboard.
3.1 Sails may be manufactured by any sail maker and must measure in accordance with “ISAF Measurement & Calcualtion of Sail Area Instructions”.

3.2 A measurer recognized by the F20NA class shall certify all sails.

3.3 Each sail maker shall present a certification of the sail’s measurements.

3.4 No sail shall be replaced during a regatta, except when a sail has been lost or damaged beyond repair, then only with permission of the Race Committee.

3.5 Total sail area of the 3 sails and mast shall not be more than 50 sq. meters (538 sq. ft.).

3.6 Once measured and certified, the sq. foot/meter measurement of each sail shall be indelibly marked near the tack point of the sail for future verification.

4. Mast—The mast may be built from any materials and may be any length provided that the total sail area limit is not exceeded.

5. The beam of the catamaran shall not exceed 8 feet 6 inches.

6. The minimum weight of the boat in full trim shall not be less than 320 lbs.

7. Crew Weight: no minimum/maximum but same skipper/crew weight must be kept for entire regatta. Any substitution is up to the discretion of the PRO.

8. Team size: 2




Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Open 20 - More Cowbell
#5
Bimare 18HT Jav2 - Infidel
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#234959 - 07/19/11 03:56 PM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Capt_Cardiac]  
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Capt_Cardiac Offline
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separate from the rule set, the Race series will be designed as follows:

9. Race Series:
9.1. Seven races per year—The F20NA racing series will be a combination of distance and buoy racing to best showcase the platform and the talent of the crews involved. The class will select the locations of the events and publish them on the class website and relevant forums no later than January 10 of each year.
9.2 Three (3) Distance Regattas
9.3 Three (3) Windward/Leeward Regattas
9.4 Final event will be the F20NA Championship—The culmination of the Class series will result in the award of a perpetual trophy to be dedicated at the first Championship.
9.4.1 Day 1 Distance/Day 2 Windward/Leeward
9.4.2 Day 1 and Day 2 will be equally weighted


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
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Open 20 - More Cowbell
#5
Bimare 18HT Jav2 - Infidel
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#234973 - 07/19/11 07:31 PM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Capt_Cardiac]  
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There have been several of us working on this for the past 3 or 4 weeks.
We have put the min boat weight at 320 because there is no reason with the carbon technology that we have today for any 20 foot cat to weigh 400 pounds. There are lots of places weight can be cut. I intend to make carbon rudders and daggers for my 20. Also I will be splicing spectra traps. I think with just these small changes our n20 will be down to around 380-390 pounds.
As far as crew weight goes light is not always better. I’ll use myself as an example. When Joe and I sailed together we did just fine at a weight of 460. If we had been light on all those windy days we would have lost our butts. I think most crew weights will stay the same.
I would like to see the F20NA class grow to be like the F18 class. Who cares who makes the sails, mast or any other part of the boat. I would like to see people build their own carbon 20 foot cat under these rules.
I think that the Nacra 20 will remain the boat to beat for years to come!!! With the box rule everyone will have the same size sails but will be free to play with sail cut/design.
I believe that with the adoption of this class we will see more 20 foot cats on the starting line. At any given regatta there are 5 or 6 Nacra20’s on the starting line. With this class I hope to see 20 or 30 boats.
Trust me, we know that there will be lots of questions. Please feel free to email me and ask anything you like. (Charlie Trinque) sailerpt@gmail.com


Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
#234990 - 07/20/11 09:35 AM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Capt_Cardiac]  
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Chris9 Offline
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Thanks for doing this....reading it next.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
#235719 - 08/04/11 07:07 AM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Capt_Cardiac]  
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Matt M Offline
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Capt,

You have stated what is essentially a fully open package, but have gone and eliminated one of the current 20's that have been leading the way for the 20 class - the Marstrom.

You are open to some fully foiling package, wing sails etc, and then go out of you way to fix some heavy min weight restriction on the platform, doesn't make a lot of sense.

This is what Carl fought for years trying to create an F20 class. Creating a rule based on the I20 to make the existing guys happy, or making soething that can survive as a class but doesn't exist maybe as a boat yet.

#235926 - 08/08/11 08:34 PM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Matt M]  
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Capt_Cardiac Offline
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It wasn't an intention to eliminate the Marstrom or the F20c or any 10 beam boat. I don't have the confidence that a wide beam boat will be accepted by the masses. I base this on history. the wide beam boats have been the exclusive boat of the elite racing crowd if not for their width then for their cost. I know this point is arguable until we are all blue in the face but the decision was made. That being said, the rule set is purposely designed to get a class going. The rule set is completely up for negotiation after the first year. If the class wants to move to 10 ft beams I'm game.

Please clarify "fix some heavy min weight restriction". I have been castigated for the 320 lbs limit. I think it can be lighter!! I have an 18HT and am fully aware these 20 ft boats are heavier than necessary(As are the F18s). I love the F16s for this reason only I would sink one them with my weight.

What would you do? No minimum weight? No beam restriction? I would like to know. Its called an open class but perhaps we are too narrow minded in our approach?

cc


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Open 20 - More Cowbell
#5
Bimare 18HT Jav2 - Infidel
#5
#235943 - 08/09/11 06:49 AM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Capt_Cardiac]  
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Matt M Offline
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Originally Posted by Capt_Cardiac
What would you do? No minimum weight? No beam restriction? I would like to know. Its called an open class but perhaps we are too narrow minded in our approach?

cc


A beam restriction provides for some control on moment and something I would feel is required for a class. Whether it is 8-6 or more probably depends on what you are trying to build the class to do. If you are trying to revitalize the 20 foot buoy scene then 8-6 make the most sense as it is trailerable. The Open distance racing scene are not so much concerned with set-up and tend to be a lot more accepting of a difficult set-up to have added righting moment. The CFR could be revisited and would fall here except for weight. Marstom is a bad example of a formula anything as there are essentially no 2 alike and they have been the toy of the distance speed freaks to date.

My point here was that I though it silly to place some relatively heavy weight restriction on something that is otherwise TOTALLY open. If you want the class to be I20, then get the fence sitters off their butt and make a sailor’s class. If you want an open development class then make it so. The politically motivated and seemingly arbitrary high weight issue is going to cause problems. The I20 guys are already unhappy as they are heavy and will not join. The tinkerers will not join as they do not want a heavy boat. Weight does not make a boat less expensive. It does a lot of things but most of all it is point of contention. If you totally open every rule but set a large weight requirement then you might get a lot more interest by calling it the 320 lb class and just seeing who can build the fastest boat of any size or type that weighs that much.

Sorry for the soap box, but I watched this same thing keep killing the F20 plans Carl and others worked on long ago. I still have some 20 hulls in the shop and masts/parts collecting dust as a viable 20 concept never took off.

#235959 - 08/09/11 09:13 AM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Matt M]  
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Capt_Cardiac Offline
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When Carl was working on his F20 plans the I20 was still well supported and had no interest in playing with anyone. Times have changed. The 320 lbs club sounds interesting but no one wants to weigh boats before events. In fact, as i've seen here and in practice almost no boats ever get weighed. The 320lbs was chosen simply because it is substantially less than the I20, N6.0, Fox, etc. and would allow for any tinkering with the parts on those boats and would allow for new boats to be constructed without having to overbuild them to add weight.
what is the projected weight of the 20 footer you have in storage?


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Open 20 - More Cowbell
#5
Bimare 18HT Jav2 - Infidel
#5
#235966 - 08/09/11 10:22 AM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Capt_Cardiac]  
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Matt M Offline
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Originally Posted by Capt_Cardiac
When Carl was working on his F20 plans the I20 was still well supported and had no interest in playing with anyone. Times have changed. The 320 lbs club sounds interesting but no one wants to weigh boats before events. In fact, as i've seen here and in practice almost no boats ever get weighed. The 320lbs was chosen simply because it is substantially less than the I20, N6.0, Fox, etc. and would allow for any tinkering with the parts on those boats and would allow for new boats to be constructed without having to overbuild them to add weight.
what is the projected weight of the 20 footer you have in storage?

It is a glass boat, carbon stick. 300 lbs.
If no boats are being weighed and no one really wants to have to hassle with weighing – why have the only real rule in the class be weight? Make a box dimension requirement and then limit configurations.

Rather than have equipment limited to an event make registration of equipment be for a season. The issue I like to avoid is the guy showing up and picking equipment and configurations that will give them some perceived advantage that day or that weekend. Huge square tops for the light wind weekends or the distance guys taking off or adding spins for the direction to get the best numbers.

If somebody can make a 100 lb boat that can make it through the full range of conditions in a season; then great. This is no more a class killer or scary proposition than they guy who shows up with a full foiling vessel or a hrad wing sail, etc.. The cost in a class is from development. You have this in a strict formula class like the F18 and the more open A class both. The arms race on the beach you can avoid to some extent is the guy who has a rig/ boat/ sail etc. for every condition and plays the rating game on the beach.


#236094 - 08/10/11 07:23 PM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Matt M]  
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Questioner Offline
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Have been talking to a couple of designers who have their sights set on the new Olympic cats and they have 20' designs with 10' beams and not a one that I've been shown has a rigged weight of more than 250 lbs, the lightest was about 220 lbs. Doesn't seem sensible to outlaw ahead of time a bunch of new designs that may be around by next year.

#236673 - 08/22/11 01:46 PM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Questioner]  
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Will_R Offline
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Home is where the harness is.....
Originally Posted by Questioner
Have been talking to a couple of designers who have their sights set on the new Olympic cats and they have 20' designs with 10' beams and not a one that I've been shown has a rigged weight of more than 250 lbs, the lightest was about 220 lbs. Doesn't seem sensible to outlaw ahead of time a bunch of new designs that may be around by next year.


+1

#237300 - 09/08/11 10:46 AM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Capt_Cardiac]  
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Chris9 Offline
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Crofton, MD
Any updates?


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
#237349 - 09/09/11 07:43 AM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Chris9]  
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Capt_Cardiac Offline
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Juana's Good Time Regatta is this weekend. I'm sure we will be having LOTS of feedback during this event. I'll post back with the outcomes, etc.


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Open 20 - More Cowbell
#5
Bimare 18HT Jav2 - Infidel
#5
#237555 - 09/14/11 06:18 AM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Capt_Cardiac]  
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pasdnous Offline
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It would be great if we could start an F20 class. We have five at our club in NJ. I have two thoughts to add to the discussion.
1. If we are going to do this we need to get off our A@*@*@ and stop debating so much on the rules and start to work on things that matter- like race schedules. As a first step I would say we set up a racing schedule open to 20 ft beachcats and will score with the std pns.

2. Moving forward - if we are to set up a bonafide F20 class I would strongly argue against an design. The reasons the F18s have done so well is because everything is tightly regulated. If this means we have to cut out some boats at the beginning to get things off the ground, so be it. But you don't want this to go the way of the A-cats where it is now a pay-to-play and no matter how good of a sailor you are if you don't have an extra 30k or whatever to drop on the latest a-cat you aren't going to be winning races. In contrast if you look at the F-18s all of the best sailors are gravitating toward them because they know they can get direct head-to-head competition with their rivals.

So basically I am trying to make two points. 1. If we are going to start the class we should be talking about racing not about rules that don't matter yet.

2. If we are going to make the rules then we should follow the F18 model even if this means cutting out a few boats at the beginning.

I know these two points are somewhat contradictory and the notion of excluding boat not politically correct, but someone had to say it.

#237556 - 09/14/11 06:43 AM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: pasdnous]  
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Matt M Offline
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Originally Posted by pasdnous
2. Moving forward - if we are to set up a bonafide F20 class I would strongly argue against an design. The reasons the F18s have done so well is because everything is tightly regulated. If this means we have to cut out some boats at the beginning to get things off the ground, so be it. But you don't want this to go the way of the A-cats where it is now a pay-to-play and no matter how good of a sailor you are if you don't have an extra 30k or whatever to drop on the latest a-cat you aren't going to be winning races. In contrast if you look at the F-18s all of the best sailors are gravitating toward them because they know they can get direct head-to-head competition with their rivals.

2. If we are going to make the rules then we should follow the F18 model even if this means cutting out a few boats at the beginning.



I will grant the F18 class has been successful, yet so has the A. With these 2 classes you have the premier performance racing classes of multihull with 1 up and 2 up .

The F18 class promotes itself as a strict formula, while the A class promotes development. In both classes you see the top sailors winning on virtually any platform and the word after events is that the boat just does not make that much difference. The top guys are on new rigs and new platforms and that is the case in Every class from Hobie 16 to TP52’s. You want to race at the top level you have new gear.

If you think that because there are tight controls on the rule set then the boats are cheap, you had better relook at things. Development is expensive and there is significant development going on within the A and the F18 classes both. In some aspects trying to develop an advantage of something that can be marketed as unique within a tight rule set is more expensive than starting with an open slate.

You can pay 25K+ for an extremely over weight fiberglass hand laminated F18 or you can pay 25-30 for a light weight all carbon prepreg A cat. Which is really the better vlaue?

A tight set of rule specs is not going to motivate any builder to design a new boat. Without boats on the market there is no class. The existing 20 drivers and models are for the most part about line honors, there just is not much if any fleet racing anywhere. Setting a set of rules up that is nothing more than a 2’ longer F18 is not something I see going anywhere.

#237585 - 09/14/11 11:23 AM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Matt M]  
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pasdnous Offline
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No way. The tight rules do exactly the opposite of what you are saying- they promote manufacturing by ensuring there is a market. Look at whats happened the last two years with Hobie/Performance Cats. Performance cats puts out the infusion, hobie puts out the wild cat, performance cats puts out the mk2. Each of these in an improvement from the earlier version, although I do concede because of the rules you aren't getting any breakthrough boats. But this ensures there are plenty of boats out there and that makes for big fleets.

Also your pricing is off. Last I checked a new carbon 20 was well over 30k. If you talk about making special mods to these boats you are going to be pushing 40-45k. These are not A-cats where you got one sail and a simple rig. There are many more options and three sails and if you open it up to unbridled development you are going to have boats getting dated faster than people can sail them.

And again, I'll say, people don't want to pay large sums of money just to be competitive. I should be able to buy a used boat for under 10k and, maybe with the purchase of some new sails, expect to be able to compete with joe millionaire who just bought a brand new I20. Otherwise, I'm not buying the boat! This is why at my club which has over 100 cats you barely see any A-cats.

Also - what ever happened to sailing being about skill and practice? What we all need to do is get out on the water more and hone the skills. Instead of setting it up so everyone is worried about having the latest gear, why don't we set it up so that some high school kid who sailed all summer can give some of the old dogs a run for their money? In the words of Rick White - before you worry about getting the latest fancy coating for your hulls, fix the loose screw on the tiller!

I would propose that for now we put these issues aside. The first and foremost most important thing is to set up a circuit, see how attendance is, and then we can deal with this. Early on we could score with pns and that would be fine. As the circuit grows and gets more competitive we can vote or figure out some other way to decide what the rules are going to be. I think if everyone sees the 20 class is growing and on the up and up people (myself included) would be more willing to meet each other halfway on the details. But the most important thing is to take action before everyone jumps ship to the F18s. There are plenty of I20s at my club and a number of them in new england and up the east coast. We could generate a good racing season.

#237590 - 09/14/11 12:12 PM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: pasdnous]  
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Matt M Offline
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Then promote the I20 class and be done.

The F20 concept died before becuase the I 20 group did not want to change anything. The non I20 group had no interest in having an I20 boat or they would have already bought into the I20.

#237591 - 09/14/11 12:25 PM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Matt M]  
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pasdnous Offline
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Thats not what I am proposing. I am proposing we go forward with one design be it an I20 or not. I wouldn't be happy about having to switch boats, but would do it if I knew there would be some good races. Which reminds me of my other point....

#237862 - 09/20/11 07:46 AM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Matt M]  
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Carl Offline
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Thanks for remembering how hard we tried to get a F 20 class going .

At the time there were 2 major 20 ft production cats --the Hobie Fox and Inter 20 --The I 20 was lighter and had 15 more sq ft in the main than Fox which complied to the EU f 20 CLASS specs ,

The F 18 class was basically started by a few guys in CRAM getting together with boat mfg reps and other groups around the country --they had an established EU F 18 class to work from and boats made to it specification wise.

In 2011 -we now suddenly have new interesting 20 ft designs on which to base F 20 CLASS SPECS .

THE MORE SIMPLE AND BASIC the BETTER --my preferance would be more of an A Class type model BUT MORE OPEN TO DEVELOPMENT .

We have a C Class of course for wings and big budgets --a great development type class and now AC racing larger versions of the tech developed --AMAZING !!

I LIKE WHERE DESIGN IS GOING --lighter faster lifting platforms .

I,d suggest looking at the old 18 sq meter rule which just set a 2 sided box rule of Length -sail area - no beam limit -no development limit thought wings are the thing nowdays .

Let the class develop from there -

The main thing is to get organized groups in established racing organizations to agree to race F 20 and then promote interesting new boats and design to it .

let me know if I can help .

regards

Carl




#238458 - 09/30/11 08:01 AM Re: F20na Box Rule Set [Re: Carl]  
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Naples, FL
I'd like something akin to the 18 class wherein I can buy a boat that should last and be reasonably competitive for 10 years or so.

I don't have the time or money for an arms race, so I'm willing to give up cutting edge "fastest boat on the planet" thinking

I liked the N20 becuase fat dudes could go fast in light air, the boats lasted practically forever, held their resale value, was easy to transport (no assembly), the platform worked in both buoys and distance, and you could sail it as easy or as complicated as you want (good controls) which helped newbies get into the class.

It seemed that (within reason) the better sailors won, regardless of which boat they happened to be on. JC would repeatedly smoke Ding regardless of how many new sails he bought...

The big bonus at the time was an active fleet in my region which made everything reasonable (cost, travel time, competition).

But nostalgia may be clouding my thoughts on this....

Most of the rock stars own and sail many classes of boats, and I can't imagine even their pockets are deep enough for another costly, narrow-performance band platform.

And how many owners of expensive, high-tech and possibly fragile rockets would be willing to take on newbie crew/drivers? How would you build the class if you can't get newbies up to speed?

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 09/30/11 08:04 AM.

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