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Re: sail material control [Re: Aido] #235644
08/02/11 09:11 PM
08/02/11 09:11 PM
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brucat Offline
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I think it's been said already, but when is this going to get its own thread already???

Also, I must have missed something here. I thought it was previously discussed that there was NO protest at the Worlds, but an inquiry of the Technical Committee (the authority of which I couldn't find in the NOR or class rules).

What am I missing?

Mike

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Re: sail material control [Re: brucat] #235645
08/02/11 09:19 PM
08/02/11 09:19 PM
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Re: sail material control [Re: F-18 5150] #235647
08/02/11 09:28 PM
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Thanks Rich, I missed that earlier.

Certainly a pickle, looks like everyone was stuck with no good options.

Mike

Re: sail material control [Re: brucat] #235653
08/03/11 12:08 AM
08/03/11 12:08 AM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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great reference, thanks

Mike, Anyone,

Why would you ask the RO (PRO?) to file the protest and not throw it back to the class member who raised the issue/inquiry and let him choose to file the protest?

Is this the proper role of the PRO to file the protest at the behest of the Class Pres?
Could the PRO have told the Class President to pound sand?
Should the PRO have told the Class President to pound sand?

Would a protest from a competitor in the regatta been judged differently then a protest coming from the RO (PRO)/ Class Pres?

Quote
The IJ judging the sailors being not guilty, and taking no penalty accordingly as it would have invalid all the RC work of the whole week as mentioned in their arguments.


Do you have any idea what they meant?
Is this basically saying, This is a stupid rule with a stupid violation and we are not tossing anyone on the last day of the worlds. (Ha... the sailing equivalent of jury nullification.)

It sure sounds like the fact that the late hour of the protest was an important factor in tossing the protest. If this issue is bubbling along since 2009!!!! you have to wonder why the crisis hits on the last day of the worlds!

Inquiring minds would ask to see some class document xxx is denied addition to the list because yyy. If the class stands by saying nothing and so xx material just does not appear on the list ... well that is really smelly. How many other material requests were sat on? Who's request were acted on?

Mike, I think the procedure I would have chosen would have been to toss this back to the sailor and let him judge for himself whether to proceed with the protest. The class could then deal with the issue after the regatta. why the rush... it's only taken em since 2009. I can see why the jury went the way it did.

What a mess! Since 2009 ?????


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Re: sail material control [Re: Mark Schneider] #235654
08/03/11 12:19 AM
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Mark

I took that line to meen that the sailors themselves were not at fault and there for no action was taken against them.( I don't know what RC meens "Racing Competion?") Don't throw out 4 days of sailing on the last day because of a outside infraction.

Guess there could be an argument that the inquiry should have been made at an earlier time. Did you know there was a problem and ignore it till you would most benifit from the protest.

Last edited by hobie18rich; 08/03/11 12:29 AM.

Richard Vilvens
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Re: sail material control [Re: Aido] #235655
08/03/11 12:19 AM
08/03/11 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Aido
I have seen the patches in question. By definition they are primary. In practice hopelessly light and I would expect the sail to last 1 regatta at best.


You better go check the photos and then the ISAF drawing of patching, because the SI sails for sure have the .75mil PSA in the position ISAF describe as secondary reinforcement.

Its not on the list for sure, but is it making those sails much faster? any faster? any difference at all?

As for longevity and weight of sails: its perfectly legal to build a mainsail from Apen 6 1.5 mil, how long will that last as a mainsail? Is that a good thing for the class to have?


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Re: sail material control [Re: macca] #235657
08/03/11 02:09 AM
08/03/11 02:09 AM
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Brisveagas
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Well there you go macca you were right about one thing. How does it feel???

Might not make the sails faster, but it certainly makes them lighter. And whatever you say the cloth is not legal.

Why are you defending these guys? If someone had had the balls to protest them they would have lost. Clearly the f18 council agrees.

Last edited by Aido; 08/03/11 02:10 AM.

Aido
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Re: sail material control [Re: Aido] #235659
08/03/11 02:39 AM
08/03/11 02:39 AM
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Feels awesome!! smile

But seriously, the issue as I have said all along is not whether the stuff was legal or not, its more about the way it was handled.

If someone had (as you say: the balls, I say the gall) to protest the entire fleet for violation of the batten pocket rule, trap line rule or one of several other areas that are outside the rules then what would have been the resulting situation at a worlds? a big waste of time and money for everyone...

Certainly the piece of sticky cloth on a sail has less performance impact than dyneema trap lines compared to wire ones. But nobody bitched about it, and the worlds were run and won without anyone feeling they lost because they complied with the rules and used wire whilst the winners had dyneema.


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Re: sail material control [Re: macca] #235660
08/03/11 03:46 AM
08/03/11 03:46 AM
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My apologies for having a go at you Macca. I guess i live in a fantasy world were everybody is expected to do the right thing.

I agree that the Dyneema trap lines are probably a bigger issue. The class really needs to be brought back into line. Some How.


Aido
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Re: sail material control [Re: F-18 5150] #235661
08/03/11 05:18 AM
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"RC" Is Race Committee "RO" Race Officer

Here the original report from the PRO:
http://twitpic.com/5n157l

Re: sail material control [Re: F18arg] #235676
08/03/11 08:57 AM
08/03/11 08:57 AM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Do they make up the procedures as they go or am I not reading the proper rule books?

So, the PC/ IJ was informed of an issue by way of the Inquiry which was addressed to all of the official bodies running the regatta.

(So is an Inquiry a protest that requires some action by the IJ) What is an Inquiry to an International Jury... Is that even an official process that requires a response?

A report comes back from the RC and authored by the PRO. Which says we were informed by the TC and the Class Pres that there were some problems after all of the paperwork was approved and accepted BEFORE the regatta on the water started.

They don't seem to file a protest in this document... There are no protested parties! Rather, they jump to their own judgment which says.... never mind. not wasting our time. A protest should have been filed after the first day on the water on equipment issues.

If anything, the RC was asked to file a protest against a part of themselves, the Measurement team of the RC. They don't seem to do that. They certainly don't protest any boats in the regatta.

So, the IJ then does something... The initial reports say they ruled on the protest, That was refined to ... they ruled on the inquiry. Now you have to ask... what did they rule on?
The opinion of the RC and the PRO?

I am still trying to understand if they ruled on anything...
It sounds more like they just agreed with the RC/PRO that nothing should be done.

What would have happened had Niewhouse filed a protest against a single boat?

Could all of the rules violations been protested one by one in a huge game of "screw you too"!


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Re: sail material control [Re: Mark Schneider] #235685
08/03/11 10:56 AM
08/03/11 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Mike, Anyone,

Why would you ask the RO (PRO?) to file the protest and not throw it back to the class member who raised the issue/inquiry and let him choose to file the protest?

Is this the proper role of the PRO to file the protest at the behest of the Class Pres?
Could the PRO have told the Class President to pound sand?
Should the PRO have told the Class President to pound sand?


Mark, it is spelled out here, with applicable rules even being cited: http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2011/08/f18-info-on-si-sails-issue.html

Here are the RRS references (you seem to have lost your book?)…

Last sentence of RRS 60.2:

However, when the race committee receives a report required by rule 43.1(c) or 78.3, it shall protest the boat.

(43.1 is in regard to clothing and weight, and does not apply here.)

78.3 When an equipment inspector or a measurer for an event decides that a boat or personal equipment does not comply with the class rules, he shall report the matter in writing to the race committee.


So, when the report came from the measurer (on Thursday), the RC was required to protest. Note, this is the ONLY rule in the book that requires an RC to protest.

To answer any of your other questions would take a lot of speculation on my part, and I don’t think that would help the situation at all.

From where I sit (and having seen some rather unpleasant protests and redress hearings involving IJs at major events), this type of stuff puts everyone in a pickle and there are rarely “good” answers.

Mike

Re: sail material control [Re: brucat] #235694
08/03/11 01:14 PM
08/03/11 01:14 PM
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Mike,
Yes... I am re reading those parts of the rules this AM.

So what is this Inquiry mechanism.... it's not a protest and is that in the rules someplace

Second question
rule 78.3 is found under entry and qualification.
Does that constrain the IJ 's scope of decisions on equipment protests in time because of the section. The RC seems to imply that this timing factor is a reason to do nothing.

Is a competitor who is making an equipment protest (not inquiry) going to be held to a different or same standard then the RC protest? IE... I discover on the last day that the guys ahead of me are in technical violation of some equipment rule. Did my window of opportunity also close because of the Entry and Qualification section.

I don't get the timing issue... For instance, The Pan Am Games Hobie 16 protest on the next to last day was raised by a competitor and upheld with the sailors being tossed.

What is the difference? Just the judgment of the IJ as to the practical effect of the violation?



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Re: sail material control [Re: Mark Schneider] #235695
08/03/11 02:06 PM
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Mark, you're asking questions that I cannot answer because I was not there.

As far as I know, a sailor can initiate an equipment protest at any time.

I think an inquiry can be as simple as someone walking up and asking a question. The word does not exist in RRS. Perhaps the SIs?

This situation was basically caused by the measurers originally missing the breach when they certified the boats during registration. The fact that they discussed it amongst themselves on Monday, rather than file a report with the RC (who would then have protested on Monday), only compounded things.

Speculation: More than likely, they took it upon themselves (perhaps with some discussion with the RO or IJ, who knows?), to trust that the sailors in question were not intentionally cheating, and hoped the whole thing would go away and not taint the event.

This was further compounded by the timing of the inquiry from a sailor (on Thursday), which was unfortunate, to say the least, because it left no good options.

For a moment, put yourself in the position of the RO or IJ...

I would say that no one really wants to toss a boat at the end of a regatta, unless the violation is so blatant that a major performance advantage is gained, and/or sportsmanship is in question.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 08/03/11 02:12 PM.
Re: sail material control [Re: brucat] #235698
08/03/11 03:16 PM
08/03/11 03:16 PM
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I think the jury did the right thing... just toss the whole mess back to the class to clean up.

My question is about the rules... Since the equipment rule is in the section on ENTRY and Qualifications. Does this mean anything with respect to the timing of a protest?

I was also under the impression that you could file your protest at any time (but within a reasonable time from when you discover the violation). So my understanding would be that just because the rule is organized in the entry and qualification section that this does not impose any time constraints.

It looks to me that the jury said... Hey you get one opportunity to take a bite of the apple.... Since you discussed this on Monday and did nothing official, ie. no protest filed... You (the class and technical Committee) can't come back on Thursday and say please... may I take my bite of the apple now!

Now had Niewhouse filed the protest (not an inquiry???), the jury might have decided differently if they "believed" that he just discovered the violations (a hem).

I am very cynical about this tempest in a tea cup... none of these guys are babes in the woods...they know how to play these rules like a fiddle... The max upset was generated just this way. (Who would have cared if some equipment was tossed in the measurement stage... chances are the sailors would have gotten a street legal sail before the first race). However, had the class started down this hunt for technical rules violations at the measurement stage, Pandora's box would be opened and I suspect the "screw you to" blizzard would have sunk the whole regatta.

It sure looks like a well done smack down over an issue that has bubbled along for 2 years.
What a mess!




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Re: sail material control [Re: Mark Schneider] #235700
08/03/11 03:28 PM
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All rules are fair game at any time. If you discover that someone lied about their entry (say they were bragging at a mid-event party that they weren't a member of the required class), you can protest at any time during the event.

Obviously, it would look best for you to protest immediately upon learning of the infraction. But sometimes, people are warned and given a chance to make a correction. If they choose to continue to break the rule after being warned, they should be protested.

Having said all of that, I think there is another way to look at this whole thing. It could very well be that the sail material concern was well known in advance, and the OA, PC and IJ decided the rule infraction wasn't a major issue, and they weren't going to let it become one during the event.

The timing of events makes much more sense under this train of thought, no?

Mike

Re: sail material control [Re: brucat] #235702
08/03/11 04:16 PM
08/03/11 04:16 PM
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Quote
Having said all of that, I think there is another way to look at this whole thing. It could very well be that the sail material concern was well known in advance, and the OA, PC and IJ decided the rule infraction wasn't a major issue, and they weren't going to let it become one during the event.

The timing of events makes much more sense under this train of thought, no?


Driving the issue on the next to last day of the worlds....? No... I think somebody wanted the story.

But... I learned a lesson here... If you have an equipment issue with someone (loft)... You can't wait till the last day and toss the stink bomb. And, if I am on a jury... I would want to know when you ID'd the issue and what steps did you take after that. Waiting till the end to throw the bombs is not acceptable. Smart juries see that and use their judgment.

A friend was in an equipment protest years and years ago... He used his 18 wings in a Hobie 18 class race...(He thought he had everyone's agreement and it was hardly a secret that he had wings) At the end of the weekend he was protested and DSQ'd and the protestor moved up the scoresheet.... Pissed him off for years...

Bottom line... the context matters with these equipment protests. Just because the equipment rule has been violated does not give people swords to whack someone at the end of the regatta. Smart juries are needed when people want to be idiots.

Nothing good comes from these last minute BS things.


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Re: sail material control [Re: Mark Schneider] #235704
08/03/11 05:16 PM
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"Driving the issue on the next to last day of the worlds....? No... I think somebody wanted the story.


You're not understanding what I'm saying.

Call it a conspiracy, or whatever, but it's entirely possible that this was well throught through so that the issue gets cleared up without hurting anyone at the regatta.

Sometimes class rules need a jolt to be changed. You don't want that jolt to be too painful to the sailors.

Mike

Re: sail material control [Re: brucat] #235705
08/03/11 05:32 PM
08/03/11 05:32 PM
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The action at the worlds was intended to create maximum carnage.


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Re: sail material control [Re: macca] #235713
08/03/11 09:05 PM
08/03/11 09:05 PM
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The blatant class rules disregard by this class is joke. Maybe people remember the f18 worlds back in Australia. Mitch Booth filed a measurement protest prior to the racing started so boats could be made legal (the removal of the jib furler from memory on the blogs). The jury consisted of the chairman who was a former ISAF VP who was also a former chairman of the ISAF centreboard committee. Also on the jury was the f18 executive secretary. In the jury room f18 ES said that the class had made the rule change at their AGM but had not submitted the rule change to ISAF. That was 3 months to write to ISAF and they didn’t do it. Only some of the competitors knew about the rule change. The jury ruled he protest invalid (no grounds every made why) and said the boats could race. They also said if they enforced the rule then 50% of the boats would have been DSQ as there was not enough fulrers to buy.

Sorry but the way the f18 class handle their class rules is disgraceful. ISAF is too gutless to do anything and the sailors just take it.

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