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#241435 - 12/15/11 03:31 PM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed]  
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Skip,it's good to hear your details but would be interesting to hear your side of the events (blow by blow) that lead you to believe it was an "impossible" situation and there was no fault to you. It would help complete the story.
I think this has been a great rules exercise and has certainly given Mark S. plenty of opportunity to argue.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
-- Have You Seen This? --
#241446 - 12/15/11 07:15 PM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Kris Hathaway]  
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Kris..

The key word you use is "anticipate"

How about ... change the word anticipate to the phrase... " be prepared to instantly respond to the luff from leeward which could occur at any time. ... knowing full well that you might have to go head to wind to avoid leeward who has all of the rights."

People take the word anticipate and infer that windward boat must take some action (course change in anticipation of leewards action)...

The ROW boat does not have to give them time to scratch their balls... retrieve the rule from memory of the 2004 rule book... cogitate on the fact that leeward has rights... and then put the stick over... and when you protest... they come back with a defense saying... I did not have to anticipate the luff and you did not give me room and opportunity...

No way... that is not the game!

Oh... and the hail is irrelevant.... BS'ing your intention to take them to the moon if they stick their nose up there spices up the game but is also unnecessary and I am not sure it helps.

The F18, Straycats obviously knew the rules and was well aware that he could be luffed up and responded instantly. Did he anticipate the luff???? well this is just a matter of semantics... but yes... he did anticipate the luff and was prepared to sail his boat well when he had to.

It matters because I know lots of sailors who read... "No need to anticipate..." and "must have room and opportunity" to think that Hard luffs are out of the game these days and that it's OK to stick their nose up there and try to roll someone a few feet to weather...

Better advice would be.... make sure you are well into the passing lane... and leeward can't defend with a hard luff.


crac.sailregattas.com
#241449 - 12/15/11 09:14 PM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Skip]  

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Originally Posted by Skip
It has been clear that I have been silent here on this forum about the incident that occurred on the start of the first day of the Steeple Chase. Part of the reason for this is that I rarely if ever get on the forum, and had no idea that this string was being formed. When it was brought to my attention, by friends, what had transpired over the last few days on the forum, I logged on to see first-hand what had been said. I was amazed at the firestorm that had ensued concerning this incident, and also the mis-truths and misconceptions about the facts, as well as spot judgments of my character and other’s character from people that were not privy to the facts. Instead of giving a blow by blow from my perspective as the helmsman, which is quite different from the videos shot from opposite angles, I have decided to tell you what has transpired since the incident.
It has been said that I reneged on a hand shake that was to be considered an acceptance of blame for the damage to the leeward boat. First the setting of the discussion was in a home of a friend of mine that I admire and respect. The last thing I wanted to do is turn his home into a protest meeting and create an uncomfortable situation for him and the rest of his guests that were there to relax and have a drink with friends. From my perspective I thought that it was an impossible situation, as well as unfortunate, and since there was no protest committee to determine fault we were shaking hands and agreeing to disagree. When I was approached by Todd the next day I realized, then, that he still wanted me to accept fault. I told him there, in front of witnesses that I needed time to try to determine how we could get this event ruled on and if it was determined that I was at fault I would pay for the damages and accept fault. Since that conversation Todd and I have been in contact each day to discuss progress and suggest potential solutions. During this same time period I wrote up my description of what happened and sent it out to people that I know and trust that have been involved in protest hearings. It took time as I had to wait for one of the guys to get back from a cruise out of the country. Both of them saw the videos, my drawings and my write up. This morning they both concurred that I need to accept fault and responsibility for the damages to the leeward boat. I have contacted Todd and told him that I accept fault and will pay for damages.
As for the discussion on rule 41b, I had no prior knowledge of this rule and feel terribly that it could be possible that I could have participated in another infraction. Again, because I thought that I was not at fault at the time, I continued to sail on. I did see the damage above the water line of the boat and they were sailing it away under control and from my perspective I could not do anything to help them better than several boats with motors in attendance at the start. Since there is no committee to determine fault here what I am willing to do and intend to do is pose to Rick White that he swap my finish scores for the damaged boats finished scores as a way to exonerate myself from this possible infraction.
In conclusion I am very saddened by this turn of events and I thank everyone involved, especially Todd for being a stand up gentleman and allowing me the time I needed to come to an informed decision and make proper restitution. If there had been a formal means to resolve this Saturday it would have been done then and I would have accepted and respected the decision made.
Thanks to the people who know me and supported me and gave me the benefit of the doubt.
Respectfully Skip Kaub


Way to man up. Silent Jay will be happy. If you need a cash advance Silent Jay can help with that too.

#241451 - 12/15/11 10:46 PM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed]  
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Very well done, indeed, Skip.

Mike

#241453 - 12/16/11 05:22 AM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: brucat]  
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Indeed. Well done.

"You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost
the respect of your competitors." - Paul Elvström

Properly conducted protest hearings need not be uncomfortable situations. More often, they are learning experiences for everyone. Judges will often take the time to thoroughly explain how they arrived at a decision and what could have been done to avoid the situation in the first place.

I encourage everyone to attend one of US Sailing's judges seminars over the winter. (Schedule is here.) The seminars spend far more time on how to conduct a proper hearing than they do teaching the rules. You don't have to take the test, if you don't plan on becoming certified. The seminars are highly beneficial, no matter which side of the table you're sitting on.

#241456 - 12/16/11 06:54 AM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Skip]  
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I probably should have spoken up sooner but I was present on the beach on Sunday where Skip said he wanted to get (and I paraphrase) a second opinion. He never denied responsibility. Shame on those who said he did. I wasn't present during the discussion at the house around the video.

I've been in this situation the first year I started sailing and it's a very easy trap to find yourself in. I had a boat on top of me that I felt prevented me from aborting my reach into the starting area - but I didn't know my rights too well and I really couldn't anticipate what was going to happen next. All I knew was that I didn't like the angle I was coming in at the start line but I felt like I couldn't escape. My focus was on the boat above me and the committee boat I was approaching. Next thing I know, I have a Hobie 16 bow on my trampoline and a skipper screaming bloody murder at me.

If you've been racing for a while reaching/barging/starting becomes second nature - but this incident does require some anticipation to prevent if there is a crowd of boats at different angles. If you can't see this potential before hand, once you get into it, the escape routes are narrow and few (if existent).


Jake Kohl
#241459 - 12/16/11 07:50 AM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Jake]  
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Originally Posted by Jake
I probably should have spoken up sooner but I was present on the beach on Sunday where Skip said he wanted to get (and I paraphrase) a second opinion. He never denied responsibility. Shame on those who said he did. I wasn't present during the discussion at the house around the video.

I've been in this situation the first year I started sailing and it's a very easy trap to find yourself in. I had a boat on top of me that I felt prevented me from aborting my reach into the starting area - but I didn't know my rights too well and I really couldn't anticipate what was going to happen next. All I knew was that I didn't like the angle I was coming in at the start line but I felt like I couldn't escape. My focus was on the boat above me and the committee boat I was approaching. Next thing I know, I have a Hobie 16 bow on my trampoline and a skipper screaming bloody murder at me.

If you've been racing for a while reaching/barging/starting becomes second nature - but this incident does require some anticipation to prevent if there is a crowd of boats at different angles. If you can't see this potential before hand, once you get into it, the escape routes are narrow and few (if existent).


So ,shame on Todd Riccardi for assuming that since responsibilty for the incident wasn't accepted, it was denied. Seems like a pretty good assumption to me. I guess they just needed a better mediator. grin (Smiley face is for you Jake)
If it wasn't so obvious I could see the confusion, but not in this case. That said, because it was so obvious and fault wasn't immediately accepted, I'd bet Todd thought he was trying to get out of it. That's what I'd think. Seems some time with a nose in the rule book is in need. Ignorance of the rules could have really hurt someone in this situation.

Last edited by Team_Cat_Fever; 12/16/11 09:05 AM. Reason: Clarification.

"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
#241460 - 12/16/11 07:57 AM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mark Schneider]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
... I did not have to anticipate the luff and you did not give me room and opportunity...

No way... that is not the game!
Sorry Mark but that is the rule. You cannot wait until there is 3' of side-by-separaton separation and expect to do a hard luff that is impossible to respond to. ROW can still luff but in a manner that allows the other boat to respond to the luff.

So yes, if the ROW allows you to get within a few feet to weather then they have essentially given up their opportunity to do a "hard luff" at that moment and has allowed the other boat "to stick their nose there and try to roll someone a few feet to weather."


Kris Hathaway
#241461 - 12/16/11 08:34 AM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Kris Hathaway]  
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Kris, I am talking about the video and the timing... Are you saying that Wave luffed too late?


Originally Posted By: brucat
Obviously, since there apparently was no contact, Stray Cats (barely) kept clear of Wave (and vice-versa).

SRM wrote

I would argue that that's not necessarily the case. There doesn't need to be contact in order to establish that one boat didn't keep clear. In fact, by making contact, either or both boats could be penalized under Rule 14.

In any case, after looking at the video several times, my opinion is that there are really two separate incidents that occur. The first being when Stray Cats enters the starting area from astern and above both Adrenaline and Wave with essentially no right of way under Rule 11. Wave's response to this is to luff. Whether the speed of Wave's luff violates Rule 16.1, or if Stray Cats Violated Rule 11 is open to interpretation. But this would be the topic for a separate protest. ...

Are you taking the interpretation that Wave fouled Stray Cats because the luff was too fast and no room and opportunity were given?



crac.sailregattas.com
#241463 - 12/16/11 09:19 AM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed]  
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I'm on the road, don't have a lot of time to respond.
But a couple facts:
1) 3 people witnessed Skip accept responsibilty on Saturday night, only 1 (him) thinks it was to "agree to disagree"
2) Jake missed the first minute of our conversation on Sunday where Skip told me he thought he was not responsible. He didn't come over until after my reaction of hearing this.
3) Skip informed me yesterday while accepting blame that at no time between the event and just recently when his 2 friends told him to accept the blame did he think he was at fault either from people telling he was and because he did not know the rules.
4)Skip did not want to get Rick White involved a couple days ago when I asked him to allow Rick acting as the regatta organizer and after the fact protest hearing to make the decision of who was at fault

#241465 - 12/16/11 09:22 AM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed]  
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wildtsail Offline
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However, either way Skip did graciously accept responsibility and offer to pay yesterday.
I'm just glad it's over with and I feel a huge weight lifted off my shoulders.
This should have been delt with at the event and not had to go past the weekend. I thought it had been until it was too late during my conversation with Skip on Sunday.
I am not alone in thinking that protests are not allowed at the Steeplechase which is why I didn't protest. I'm glad to know that they are and wish I had known on Saturday.

#241467 - 12/16/11 09:42 AM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mark Schneider]  
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Just responding to your general statements regarding hard luffing.

Relative to the video -

Wave luffed appropriately. Stray Cats had opportunity to respond in a seamanship manner. I contend that Stray Cats was not standing on guard for an instaneous luff as your opening statement asserts is required by any boat that is passing to windward. The skipper was in fact straightening out the sheets with both hands when the luff came.

Also, if Wave luffed a little earlier, they could have luffed even harder.

Finally, did Wave really need to luff? It seemed as though there was no room at the pin with the N20.


Kris Hathaway
#241472 - 12/16/11 10:03 AM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Kris Hathaway]  
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Mark Schneider Offline
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[quoteSorry Mark but that is the rule. You cannot wait until there is 3' of side-by-separaton separation and expect to do a hard luff that is impossible to respond to. ROW can still luff but in a manner that allows the other boat to respond to the luff.

So yes, if the ROW allows you to get within a few feet to weather then they have essentially given up their opportunity to do a "hard luff" at that moment and has allowed the other boat "to stick their nose there and try to roll someone a few feet to weather."quote]

Are you referencing any of the rule analysis books?


crac.sailregattas.com
#241475 - 12/16/11 10:19 AM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: wildtsail]  
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Fortunately there were two angles of video to help. Without it who knows if you would have got this result.

GoPro, required equipment.


Have Fun
#241489 - 12/16/11 11:44 AM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed]  
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I see we're back to agreeing to disagree...

Without further testimony, I wouldn't say that the video angle is conclusive enough to say that Stray Cats didn't keep clear of Wave. You can't see if Stray Cats' stern was overlapped at the point that Wave came up and then went back down. So, absent any other testimony, and a consensus that there was no contact, I would rule that Stray Cats kept clear.

Anyone who wants a good lesson in the expectations of luffing and keeping clear should make their way onto an umpire boat at a match racing event on monohulls.

BTW, we all need to stop using the words anticipate and opportunity. Anticipate does not appear in RRS. Opportunity appears neither in Part 2 nor in the definitions. 'Nuff said.

Mike

#241492 - 12/16/11 11:59 AM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: brucat]  
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Originally Posted by brucat

...Anyone who wants a good lesson in the expectations of luffing and keeping clear should make their way onto an umpire boat at a match racing event on monohulls....


This is an excellent point, and if anyone wants to get out on an umpire boat at a collegiate team race regatta this spring, let me know.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
#241493 - 12/16/11 12:01 PM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mark Schneider]  
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Kris Hathaway Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Are you referencing any of the rule analysis books?


Just RRS. It is straight forward. If the leeward boat luffs so hard that the windward boat cannot keep clear in a seamanlike action, then RRS 16.1 is broken. Of course, the windward boat unavoidably breaks RRS 11 but is exonerated by RRS 64.1(c).





Kris Hathaway
#241495 - 12/16/11 12:44 PM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Jeff.Dusek]  
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
Originally Posted by brucat

...Anyone who wants a good lesson in the expectations of luffing and keeping clear should make their way onto an umpire boat at a match racing event on monohulls....


This is an excellent point, and if anyone wants to get out on an umpire boat at a collegiate team race regatta this spring, let me know.


Email sent...

Mike

#241529 - 12/16/11 09:43 PM Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: brucat]  
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catman Offline
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On a lighter note, If Todd was sailing with a parrot.......Captains used to do that you know. Peg legs, eye patches, and parrots. Anyway I was just wondering what the parrot might of said after the collision.

What Todd's parrot might have said.


Have Fun
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