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Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: brucat] #245785
03/19/12 05:06 PM
03/19/12 05:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Sorry, but comparing the cost of F18 to Melges and telling us it's all OK? Really?


Not at all, Mike - I guess a better way to put it is, "Why are M24s so much more expensive than an F18?"


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
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After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
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Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: John Williams] #245786
03/19/12 05:17 PM
03/19/12 05:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by brucat
Sorry, but comparing the cost of F18 to Melges and telling us it's all OK? Really?


Not at all, Mike - I guess a better way to put it is, "Why are M24s so much more expensive than an F18?"


But we are not on a Melges forum are we.
My original post was just that the price goes up a lot faster than what we are getting.


Richard Vilvens
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Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: John Williams] #245788
03/19/12 05:21 PM
03/19/12 05:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

Its more because of stupid environmental laws than anything that everyone has moved their production to Asia.


They're not stupid laws if you don't have to shut down the entire region's industry for a few months when you want to go sailing. Or breathe.

Yeah, what he said.

Wonder what the new falcon marine f18 will cost.

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245789
03/19/12 05:23 PM
03/19/12 05:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Matt has a nice target number, but I don't know if he'll have a final price until the first boat is out of the mold... or maybe the second?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245790
03/19/12 05:33 PM
03/19/12 05:33 PM
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
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The main reason why and F18 costs more than a Tornado from Exploder is the foils... To build a set of foils for a Tornado is very easy, but the F18 is really quite expensive to build due to the length and shape of the boards. From our perspective we could save some money on the foil construction by building them wet layup with foam like everyone else, but by going prepreg autoclave built we have super stiff foils that are unbreakable (rocks excluded..) Sure it costs more, but it works better and it is after all a race boat...

We currently build our Phantom in the same factory as the Exploder Tornado and all the rest is about the same costs. We take a lot of time with the hull construction because we want a super stiff boat and we use a bit more material compared to the tornado because the hull weights in F18 are higher than the Tornado, So we could actually save money by reducing the F18 min weight smile


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Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245791
03/19/12 05:42 PM
03/19/12 05:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
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Thanks for that Macca.
So the rule to keep a minimum weight is keeping costs up?

Last edited by F-18 5150; 03/19/12 05:46 PM.

Richard Vilvens
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Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: John Williams] #245792
03/19/12 05:58 PM
03/19/12 05:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

Its more because of stupid environmental laws than anything that everyone has moved their production to Asia.


They're not stupid laws if you don't have to shut down the entire region's industry for a few months when you want to go sailing. Or breathe.


EPA and most Gov regulations are out of control, Way too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

The price on most toys seems to have really jumped in the past 6-8 years. I did some searching back through old receipts on a project I did in 2006 and was surprised to see 30-50% increases on parts across the board since then.

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245793
03/19/12 06:21 PM
03/19/12 06:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Branford, CT
I bought a boat in January 2010 and bought the same boat just recently in March 2012. The 2012 has longer dagger-boards so there is some increase in value there. I calculated the cost of each boat converting USD to the currency of the country the boat was manufactured in at the time of purchase (AUS). The DECREASE in price (not accounting for two years of inflation) was 3.6%.
In USD terms the INCREASE was 14%.

I got quotes from another brand at the time of both purchases and the increase in USD terms was just about the same 13.7% (this new boat also had longer dagger-boards).

http://www.oanda.com/currency/converter/

Last edited by rhodysail; 03/19/12 08:18 PM.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: rhodysail] #245794
03/19/12 06:32 PM
03/19/12 06:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Oh dear god, I just priced a gallon of West System (I haven't bought any in a while...not many composite projects going on lately and I usually buy by the gallon). Almost $100 for a gallon of resin...I think I paid about half that the last time I bought it (not but a couple of years ago).


Jake Kohl
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #245795
03/19/12 06:59 PM
03/19/12 06:59 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
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Ventucky Red Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Greed Plain and simple.Supply and demand. All the reasons JDub gave increased the price but not to the point of where we are now and the melges crap is just lip service(he likes to call it a straw man).


I wouldn't say it is all greed but more so making the money while they can... I'll bet if we spun the clock back when the manufactures were pushing 20 or 30 boats a week out the door like they were in the hey day of catamaran sailing the prices would be a little lower.

Originally Posted by John Williams
2004 - built in Santa Ana, CA and the money went to Nacra US Catalina Yachts
2012 - built overseas, money to Nacra Europe.


From what I remember back then they had looked at manufacturing elsewhere due to all the EPA, other regulations, and fees they had to pay to manufacture in Santa Ana..

As for the price being high, if you're willing to pay the price for what I am selling the product for; then so be it, and don't complain.

Last edited by Ventucky Red; 03/19/12 07:04 PM.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Jake] #245797
03/19/12 07:23 PM
03/19/12 07:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Originally Posted by Jake
Oh dear god, I just priced a gallon of West System (I haven't bought any in a while...not many composite projects going on lately and I usually buy by the gallon). Almost $100 for a gallon of resin...I think I paid about half that the last time I bought it (not but a couple of years ago).


Resin Research Composite Pro is better than West and costs less. Your not officially allowed to complain about epoxy prices until you pay over $200/gallon for the good stuff, like Pro-Set and MGS.

The price of carbon keeps going up, which keeps increasing the costs on foils. I have carbon here that is over $100 per meter, and you need quite a few meters to build a 7 foot long F18 dagger board.

New sail prices aren't exactly going down either, few production boats are coming with U.S built sails so that's another USD<Euro problem.


Scorpion F18
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245798
03/19/12 08:26 PM
03/19/12 08:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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F18 daggers are now 7 feet long???



Blade F16
#777
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Timbo] #245811
03/19/12 10:15 PM
03/19/12 10:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
The Nacra MKII daggers are 6' 6" long:

http://www.microwindracing.com/images/mkIIdaggerboards.JPG


Scorpion F18
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: John Williams] #245812
03/19/12 11:36 PM
03/19/12 11:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by brucat
Sorry, but comparing the cost of F18 to Melges and telling us it's all OK? Really?


Not at all, Mike - I guess a better way to put it is, "Why are M24s so much more expensive than an F18?"


You have been close to a Melges, right? For starters, there is a lot more material in those boats than ours. Considering the relative size, they are somewhat proportionally priced to a F18. Not to mention, their sails cost a ridiculous amount of money. How they ultimately justify the cost of these boats is beyond me, although I'd venture to say there are fewer of them than most people realize, and probably take a lot of labor to build.

Mike

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245815
03/20/12 06:18 AM
03/20/12 06:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I thought I saw a price for the 'new' Melges 20 (a 3 man, open sport monohull, like a Flying Scot on 'roids) that was about $40K!

I remember thinking at that time, "Wow, you could buy TWO racing cats for that!"

I think Resin is a byproduct of Oil (Petrolium based) and I know you know what's been going on with the price of oil lately, so it's no surprise that the price of everything oil based is up too....then there's the increased shipping cost, because the delivery trucks run on...OIL.

Have you seen the price of Diesel fuel lately?

There are some good deals on used boats out there, thank God! But the price of -everything- is going up, it's your paycheck that's not going up as quickly, that's why it hurts a lot more.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Timbo] #245816
03/20/12 06:40 AM
03/20/12 06:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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and...we're off.


Jake Kohl
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245820
03/20/12 07:51 AM
03/20/12 07:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Where are you -off- to?

If you're going a long way, you may want to hire one of those 'Calgary Asian Escorts' I've seen advertised here! ;^0



Blade F16
#777
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245822
03/20/12 08:37 AM
03/20/12 08:37 AM

M
MN3
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MN3
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M



i would also suggest that real inflation (not US govt numbers), QE1 & 2, and fuel cost have exacerbated the cost of everything

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Timbo] #245823
03/20/12 09:14 AM
03/20/12 09:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Timbo
Where are you -off- to?

If you're going a long way, you may want to hire one of those 'Calgary Asian Escorts' I've seen advertised here! ;^0



I was just pointing out that the talk of oil was going to initiate the dive into the depths of political discord.


Jake Kohl
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Jake] #245824
03/20/12 09:21 AM
03/20/12 09:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Give it a moment.


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F18 USA 242
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