Been shopping for a new F-18. The prices are out of control. So if all the measures in the rules are to keep costs down why are they getting to be the most expensive boat to buy.
Prices have jumped almost $10,000 in 6 years. That is just plain stupid. Now it's almost cheaper to buy a F-20C than an Infusion, C2,Wildcat,Cirrus R, or Phantom.

If they can build a Tornado for $21,000 why can't they build a F-18 for that?

The Tornado price you have is a couple of years old and does not include sails.

There is only one opportunity to buy an F20C for less than a new F18 - that is a used vs new scenario, too.

Yes, prices have gone up - in that period, we have seen all F18 production go overseas, so every purchase price for US sailors is based on some other currency. Until Matt finishes the new Falcon Marine F18, that situation will continue.

In addition, while I appreciate your sticker-shock, please take 15 minutes and price a Melges 24... or even the jib for a FARR 40. We have world-class racing for a fraction of the cost in just about any other class on the planet.

I've been wondering the same thing. I bought my 2004 Nacra F18 brand new for $12,800 without trailer and now they are almost twice as much. The pricing doesn't seem in scale with the other boats manufacturers build given the volume they are building them.

2004 - built in Santa Ana, CA and the money went to Nacra US.
2012 - built overseas, money to Nacra Europe.

Quote on a Tornado

15,900.00 EUR = 20,951.01 USD
Yes, its fully rigged and ready to sail out-of-the-box in the new and very strict high quality one design. Its made with Epoxi resin and Airex core.

http://www.darrenbundock.com/darrenbundock/4sale.html

Used boat, race ready, $38K USD

Where are you seeing a new boat for $21K USD? My Google isn't finding anything in that neighbourhood.

Rich Vilvens ‎15,900.00 EUR = 20,951.01 USD great price for that boat.

Rich Vilvens Is that fully rigged?

Roland Gaebler Yes, its fully rigged and ready to sail out-of-the-box in the new and very strict high quality one design. Its made with Epoxi resin and Airex core.

They put the price on the boat being used for the olympic selection trials.

Ah. Not quite apples to apples, eh?

How much to your door from Santander? ;-)

Ok John add a couple grand for tax and shipping it's still cheaper than most F-18's.

The price Rich is quoting is for the Exploder Tornado, and is being used as a selling point to get the class back into the Olympics. The price is quoted here: http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2012/02/olympic-trials-interview-with-roland.html The boat comes with one-design sails, which are also price controlled, so I'm sure that helps.

I suspect that part of the reason the price is relatively low for the Tornado is supply and demand. How many Tornados have been sold in the last few years? Have any of the Exploders actually sold at the price given, or is it part of the campaign for the games?

I don't know the answers, and I'm not accusing the Tornado class of anything, but I'm not sure it's a great comparison.

Yea I don't buy it. I understood the Tiger going up as the US dollar inflated compared to the Euro. Than the Wild Cat came out and was up there too. But the Infusion was up there in price along with them well before production moved over seas. Besides, I thought they were being built in China. Isn't labor suppossed to be cheaper over there? Other wise, why move production at all. I think the reallity of it is because they can.
As for the Melges, yes they are expensive little buggers, but it is all really gotten out of hand.

Rich, I get your angst, but you're still comparing a used boat to a new boat - a boat with no class racing in the US to one with lots - and your budget for tax and shipping is pretty tight. A full container from the EU is running about $600/boat with 8-10 boats. You can risk consolidated freight for about $1,200-1,500 plus whatever you get charged by whoever packs it. Then pay your tax when it clears customs.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just factual. You can change the question and get a different answer, I suppose.

If you're looking for a good, used F18, deals abound! Drop me an email and I'll point you at some killer, unadvertised rigs.

edit - Ah, now I see the Exploder price. I don't know anyone who's bought one, so I have no idea if that is real. Note the massive price difference between the Exploder and the Marstrom.

Hey Collin -

Yep, the labor is cheaper, which means the margin is better at the top-tier, which ain't your local dealer or the sailors.

I work in the composites industry. I know that our resin and chemical prices have at least doubled since 2004. The cost of insurance and compliance in the US has been about the same. Every other purchased component , supply etc has gone up also. A double price point boat is not that unrealistic.

Nacra, ahpc, and now Cirrus are all leading the charge to China. No compliance regulations to speak of and cheap labor.

I do not think it is fair to blame currency as the relative rate all across the globe is about the same increase. To believe the class hype that a tight rule set will provide pricing security and/or equal racing is pretty much BS too.
For a long time the Tiger ruled and Hobie was able to more than recover their investment. The success of the class has brought on a huge series of development projects. The Tiger lost at Worlds and just like that we have the Wildcat. The cap while still an almost new design, quickly developed a bad reputation for some of its handling and bam out comes the C2. Nacra had 3 designs come out. Get on any older F18 and a new 1 and the rig development alone makes them almost completely different to sail: constant sail making and rigging evolution. Right now the group all has to tool up new deep daggers. All these things cost money and will continually drive costs of new product. You want to keep costs in line then quit racing.

I spent less than 3K for my first new H16. Now a strict 1 design boat (with relatively speaking zero technology) with all of its development tooling and sales long long ago paid for sells for around 11K.

Like John said: we still have it incredibly good for the relative cost of what we get when buying a cat.

P.S. is that one of the Polish T’s?
I bought a pair of blank carbon mast tubes from Marstom years ago that cost me nearly that much, so I know that price for a new T was not from them.

Just a clarification, Nacra boats and the Viper are built in the same factory in Thailand. Not sure about the C2.

Sorry, but comparing the cost of F18 to Melges and telling us it's all OK? Really?

Sort of like saying why does a Prius cost so much, and being told that a Lexus costs so much more, so it's OK for the Prius to be overpriced.

Apples and oranges.

Having said that, we're all pretty cheap (frugal, whatever), and I personally think they are all way out of line for what you get. Not that I could make them cheaper, I just hate the costs.

Mike

Its more because of stupid environmental laws than anything that everyone has moved their production to Asia.


and, your dollar is fu(king worthless.

Hey, you want to go faster, cheaper?

Get out of the water! For $4,500 you can buy this kit and build it in your garage.

It's like a Harley...with Wings!

http://simplexaero.com/pops-props-cloudster/

Here's a video of it in flight; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSlX8ZHiN7M

Greed Plain and simple.Supply and demand. All the reasons JDub gave increased the price but not to the point of where we are now and the melges crap is just lip service(he likes to call it a straw man).

They're not stupid laws if you don't have to shut down the entire region's industry for a few months when you want to go sailing. Or breathe.

Not at all, Mike - I guess a better way to put it is, "Why are M24s so much more expensive than an F18?"

But we are not on a Melges forum are we.
My original post was just that the price goes up a lot faster than what we are getting.

Yeah, what he said.

Wonder what the new falcon marine f18 will cost.

Matt has a nice target number, but I don't know if he'll have a final price until the first boat is out of the mold... or maybe the second?

The main reason why and F18 costs more than a Tornado from Exploder is the foils... To build a set of foils for a Tornado is very easy, but the F18 is really quite expensive to build due to the length and shape of the boards. From our perspective we could save some money on the foil construction by building them wet layup with foam like everyone else, but by going prepreg autoclave built we have super stiff foils that are unbreakable (rocks excluded..) Sure it costs more, but it works better and it is after all a race boat...

We currently build our Phantom in the same factory as the Exploder Tornado and all the rest is about the same costs. We take a lot of time with the hull construction because we want a super stiff boat and we use a bit more material compared to the tornado because the hull weights in F18 are higher than the Tornado, So we could actually save money by reducing the F18 min weight

Thanks for that Macca.
So the rule to keep a minimum weight is keeping costs up?

EPA and most Gov regulations are out of control, Way too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

The price on most toys seems to have really jumped in the past 6-8 years. I did some searching back through old receipts on a project I did in 2006 and was surprised to see 30-50% increases on parts across the board since then.

I bought a boat in January 2010 and bought the same boat just recently in March 2012. The 2012 has longer dagger-boards so there is some increase in value there. I calculated the cost of each boat converting USD to the currency of the country the boat was manufactured in at the time of purchase (AUS). The DECREASE in price (not accounting for two years of inflation) was 3.6%.
In USD terms the INCREASE was 14%.

I got quotes from another brand at the time of both purchases and the increase in USD terms was just about the same 13.7% (this new boat also had longer dagger-boards).

http://www.oanda.com/currency/converter/

Oh dear god, I just priced a gallon of West System (I haven't bought any in a while...not many composite projects going on lately and I usually buy by the gallon). Almost $100 for a gallon of resin...I think I paid about half that the last time I bought it (not but a couple of years ago).

I wouldn't say it is all greed but more so making the money while they can... I'll bet if we spun the clock back when the manufactures were pushing 20 or 30 boats a week out the door like they were in the hey day of catamaran sailing the prices would be a little lower.



From what I remember back then they had looked at manufacturing elsewhere due to all the EPA, other regulations, and fees they had to pay to manufacture in Santa Ana..

As for the price being high, if you're willing to pay the price for what I am selling the product for; then so be it, and don't complain.

Resin Research Composite Pro is better than West and costs less. Your not officially allowed to complain about epoxy prices until you pay over $200/gallon for the good stuff, like Pro-Set and MGS.

The price of carbon keeps going up, which keeps increasing the costs on foils. I have carbon here that is over $100 per meter, and you need quite a few meters to build a 7 foot long F18 dagger board.

New sail prices aren't exactly going down either, few production boats are coming with U.S built sails so that's another USD<Euro problem.

F18 daggers are now 7 feet long???

The Nacra MKII daggers are 6' 6" long:

http://www.microwindracing.com/images/mkIIdaggerboards.JPG

You have been close to a Melges, right? For starters, there is a lot more material in those boats than ours. Considering the relative size, they are somewhat proportionally priced to a F18. Not to mention, their sails cost a ridiculous amount of money. How they ultimately justify the cost of these boats is beyond me, although I'd venture to say there are fewer of them than most people realize, and probably take a lot of labor to build.

Mike

I thought I saw a price for the 'new' Melges 20 (a 3 man, open sport monohull, like a Flying Scot on 'roids) that was about $40K!

I remember thinking at that time, "Wow, you could buy TWO racing cats for that!"

I think Resin is a byproduct of Oil (Petrolium based) and I know you know what's been going on with the price of oil lately, so it's no surprise that the price of everything oil based is up too....then there's the increased shipping cost, because the delivery trucks run on...OIL.

Have you seen the price of Diesel fuel lately?

There are some good deals on used boats out there, thank God! But the price of -everything- is going up, it's your paycheck that's not going up as quickly, that's why it hurts a lot more.

and...we're off.

Where are you -off- to?

If you're going a long way, you may want to hire one of those 'Calgary Asian Escorts' I've seen advertised here! ;^0

i would also suggest that real inflation (not US govt numbers), QE1 & 2, and fuel cost have exacerbated the cost of everything

I was just pointing out that the talk of oil was going to initiate the dive into the depths of political discord.

Give it a moment.

In a word: Yes.

We can build a very stiff F18 for less money if the total boat weight was 166kg. But with the rules being at 180kg, we just build a super stiff F18 for a bit more $.

How long would it stay stiff?

I'll let you guys in on a few secrets.

1. There isn't much mark up in boats.
2. They actually cost next nothing to make
3. Most of the profits are used to directly fund global terrorism
4. The rest of the profits are used by secret societies to keep things like the JFK assassination and moon landing under wraps.

So only the first one is true, but I kinda like pulling conspiracy theories outta my butt.

So, if catamaran sales fund Terrorism, does that mean that Jet Ski sales fund the Global War on Terrorism?

From what I have seen here on my lake, most of the Jet Skis are being driving by....TERRORISTS!!

depends on how many blue pills you take

but seriously, the general laminate on our boats is so over specced (we use foam that is almost twice as thick as the big builders) that the boats are quite unstressed. We can do this because each boat is built carefully by highly skilled people and there is no mess left inside the hulls and the joins etc are all carefully prepared and finished. In the 166kg build there is really not much difference in the overall laminate. We just put more in there because we had to get the weight up!

I'm not saying that I want the weight to change for the class (i'm in enough trouble with the class already!!) but if we want to reduce cost and improve the longevity of the boats there are some solutions out there.

To build a stiff F18 you need to lower class weight.
To build a stiff F16 you need to increase class weight.

Sure, I'm gullible.

No, those are probably just teenagers.

Or, guys that can't afford real power boats and don't have the intelligence to sail a boat...

Mike

Exploder Tornado for € 15.900 ?

Well, that is not going to be the same as a Marstrom we have come to know over the last 20 years. So I don't understand what Roland is getting at other then trying to confuse the quality of a carbon masted Marstrom with the price of an alu masted Hobie 16 with spi upgrade kit.

We all know that that is rather going to be the other way around. When that happens you basically got an outdated design (hull and boards) with a rig that can easily be put on the other boats as well in the way of costs and performance. Or does anyone really believe that a F16 carbon rig will be more expensive then the larger Tornado carbon rig ?

In my view Roland has become a bit unhinged lately.

Wouter

Now you must die. You have violated the law of the sacred order of catamaran exploiters. Ignore the black helicopters and the men outside your windows. Your termination will be swift and painless.

No, you just struggle to understand the written word sometimes

To make it simple for you:-

F18 costs can come down with lower weight
F16 costs can come down with higher weight

Whilst the above statements seem contradictory, it all makes sense when you apply logic, it doesn't take a degree in composite engineering to understand that there are weight/cost/stiffness implications if you are too far skewed with one of the three factors above.

I think the comparison to the Melges 24 is valid. But you have to take more than the cost of the boat into consideration. Both boats are high performance race boats. Both classes are deep with very talented sailors. Both classes have active schedules and North American championships with great attendance levels (althought the M24 numbers have dropped off recentley). With all that in mind, which class is the better bargain? Travel to a M24 regatta, and bring your 4 crew along with you, that's gonna be expensive. Want new sails for that regatta, better take out a second mortgage on your house.

Granted neither boat is cheap by any means, but the bang-for-the-buck factor that the F18 offeres is second to none!

A new set of F16/18 sails is about $4k? (shot from the hip, I didn't look)

How much are M24 sails?!

Coming from someone who owns and has been actively campaigning M24's and F18's for over 10 years. I can tell you that Karl is spot on the costs of running each campaign. One week racing the M24 at Key West, Miami, or Annapolis costs more than my annual F18 budget. The only F18 event that comes close in cost is the Tybee 500...

A set of M24 sails is about $6,500, and they have less than 1/2 the life of F18 sails.

Holy crap.

Back in 2007, I was calling the line on the pin boat for the Melges 32 Nationals in Newport. Someone on the boat made the comment that all the competitors had new sails for that event, and that a set of sails (I think just main and jib) cost $16,000 at that time.

My response: I can buy two whole boats for that (Hobie 16 at the time)!!!

Granted, a 32 carries much larger sails than a 24, but WOW...

Mike

Since the M32's have switched over to carbon sails, the main/jib combo is over $20k.

Thank god, the M24's are still limited to aramid or dacron sail cloth.

Not true!! I was crewing on the one boat that didn't have new sails... and we got destroyed!

Thanks for the laugh Jeff!

Was it really the sails???

Reminds me of Al Bundy: "It's not the dress that makes you look fat, it's the fat that makes you look fat..."



Mike

No, it wasn't the sails at all. I was sailing with a group from Cleveland (home) that owned the boat to sail as a family. It was a really great group, but the helmsman was in his seventies, and we just weren't competitive with the pros. Great racing though, and I am fortunate to have had the opportunity to race with such a passionate group.

As always, you attack the class rules. If you can't work within them just say so. Start your own class that conforms to your rules.

I doubt Macca can even remember paying for a boat out of his own pocket

Now I pay for many boats out of my own pocket!!!

Pete, You still struggle to understand the written words. I have not attacked any rules, I just made a statement regarding the cost of building boats and the relationship to weight and stiffness. You brought the F16 into it, so don't cry when the shortcomings are pointed out.

How's this. You've always criticized the F16 weight, now you're ranting about the F18 weight. If, as you say, you can save money at both ends, describe this remarkable optimum boat for us. Hell, why not build one! The world will come flocking to your door! You'll be annointed THE MACCA! In time we'll all come to forget the word "Hobie" and every catamaran will become known as a "MACCA"! You'll be rich and famous (think of the women that will come flocking to you)!

THE MACCA 17? So, just how much should a proper catamaran weigh? The world wonders. Ooh, ooh, can you deliver it for $10K?

Anyone interested in a '05 Tiger? Only raced 3-5 times per year. Excellent condition. Loyd and I are looking to sell ours.. We're looking for about $10K. So is that half the price of a new one? What a bargain. My daughters are racing more with me on the H16 so I never get a chance to sail the F18. I haven't raced it since 2010.

Pete, you really have some issues to work out, I have never met you but your charm and intellect on this forum are enticing to say the least.

I have just gone through my posts and can't find anything in them that could in any way be interpreted as a "rant" and upon review its clear that I was simply making a contribution to the topic which by the way is about the cost of F18's. My responses have been directly related to the topic, unlike your (how do you say it?).... Rant?

He really likes you, it's his way of flirting. He really, really wants a boat named after you.It all makes sense.
Jake could say it with big words and sciencey descriptions, I just give the insight.

Indeed it's about the price of F18s. So why the issue of weight and stiffness?

Admittedly in this case "rant" is a hyperbole. But I get so tired of chasing away the red herrings, straw man arguments, and ad hominem fallacies. Couldn't you be just a little creative? You've begun to sound like Goldilocks, (squeaky, high pitched voice) "this boat is too light, this boat is too stiff, the new wonderful "Macca" will be just right. It will be made of paper mache and cost just 12 cents."

Come on man, throw in some fancy looking equations, refer to some engineering concept I've never heard of. "Too light, too heavy." It's boring. I'll bet Wouter's wooden home build is just as fast and just as stiff as anything rolling out of any factory any where in the world.

That may be why ISAF won't consider a home build! One or two people here will remember that Holman and Moody started in a garage and became the BEST in their field.

Back to the subject, the price is what it is because that's what the traffic will bear. I'm betting the OP knows that and was just lamenting how addicted he is to this sport.

Time for my meds...

OK Guys - against my better judgement, I have to post.

How in the world can these things get so twisted? This board is one of my favorites and you are clearly a smart bunch. However, every now and then things seem to go very awry. How can an objective question get turned into personal attacks? Perhaps its SAD, too much time on the hands, whatever...

My take: Things are simply more expensive. My apologies to non-US guys for this example, but a decked-out mid-size Buick was $25k 12 years ago. Just saw one on the lot Sunday for over $40k. Yikes! (btw, I was there for another reason - I'm not a big Buick fan...)

Why are they more expensive? There are many good (as in relevant) reasons, but I think that goes way beyond the scope of what we should belabor here. This is catsailor.com, isn't it?

Personally, I'm in the market for an F18. However I've held off due to cost. Do I begrudge that fact? No. I realize its a toy and putting money away for kids college etc. has to be a priority - at least for now ;-) .

I curious... Are you going to buy that $21K Tornado, or are you going to spend the extra for an F-18? I think your answer will help explain why F-18s cost more than Tornados... Just a thought.

Why would class weight need to increase to build a stiff F-16? The class specifies minimum weight, not maximum. Hell, a Mystere 5.0 XL fits in the F-16 box. It's even heavier than the Viper.

Imo, the perception of personal attacks is due to the acceptance of political correctness, debate is becoming a lost art. Unless you limit remarks to the banal you'll be subject to criticism.

Daniel.
No I'm not going to buy a Tornado. I like the F-18 fleet in my area, and I also like my boat. At the current prices I will be keeping my Tiger or trying to pick up a used newer style boat.

I knew it was only a matter of time before the wheels fell off Pete's bus again.

Pete's neither upset nor losing it, and probably his meds are working out just fine; he's just trying to have a debate, he even said so.

How else did we get to page 8 without an attack on US Sailing?

Mike

This whole thread reminds me of that old joke:

Why are Divorces so Expensive??

Because...they are WORTH IT!

But no one wanted 2 divorces at the same time.

Because, both weight and stiffness are major factors in determining the cost of the boat!!!

Just as foil length and aspect ratio are major factors in cost. if we were still using 2.5ft long boards made of foam and glass then the boats would be cheaper, but we now have 7ft boards made only from high modulus carbon, so they cost a lot more.

I don't think its possible to make it any easier for you to grasp the concept, so if you still don't get it, I'm sorry, but thats as simple as the issue gets!

You're operating within a market. The only thing you know for certain about a market is that it will fluctuate! Recent history shows us a collapse of the housing market, and a lesser collapse with cars. Do you think the F18 market is immune?

Keep focusing on cost, without regard to price, and the market will test that theory.

When was the last time there was a retreat in F18 sales? You've had one or two posters in this thread point out that margins are sharply down! So, go ahead, continue focusing on cost. Price will take care of itself.

Thanks, Special K - you apparently said it better than I.

I think the F18 class is trying hard to keep the cost down, but it's a battle hard to win. Each development is incrementally more expensive.

The board length is a great example, a set of custom autoclaved carbon boards for a F18 do cost a small fortune. Some top teams have them made by Reverie. £1100 for one. £2200 a pair. That's $3500 just for the daggerboards...

I hope that the class rules are going to be amended to limit the length of the daggerboards to limit cost.

OK, I've got to chime in here. Well, I don't have to, but I am.

Pete, this vid of Monty Pythons is awesome!- from a conservative point of view!

Macca, I have met you twice, here in the states. I think you are spot on with your summaries of the costs, etc. But dude, sailing a 'Macca', now that sounds pretty fly!

Good day to all

Check out Vetcentric - some products of their prices are very good.



pet meds

pet meds? they must think our "cats" are sick

Ok I was not going to jump in...
Cost are up but really the cost of the actual materials come on, that is Carbon Cloth, Foam, and Epoxy is just a small fraction of total cost, plus the boats are built in SE Asia where labor is next to nothing.....I'm not buying the spin on materials causing a 50% increase in cost.
I bought a full roll of carbon for $2500, 10 gallons of west system epoxy for $800 I’ll throw $500 for the foam that is $3800 and enough to build several Cats with less than half of the roll of Carbon used.

Materials ARE way up, but this is not the major cause of the cost.
It is the expectations of what people are purchasing that is driving the cost escalation.

Lamination materials are typically sold by the pound. An H16 hull weighs more than an F16 hull, but there is a huge difference in the labor that goes into one. Controlled resin contents and more importantly the finish work that goes into a modern hull to finish seams, keels etc. Nobody wants a performance boat with H16 style hull joints. We used to get by with stamped metal blocks, stay adjusters etc. Now we buy a boat and it has to have carbon blocks – really. It was 2-3 bucks for a stamped strip with holes in them for the side stays, now we expect 45 dollar sta-masters or 75+ calibrated turnbuckles., high tech tapered lines etc.

Horizontal cut Dacron sails were norm, now we have to have radial cut Pentex, carbon, whatever super sails to compete. Some 5 times the amount of sewing and a huge jump in material cost.

All these things add up to way in excess of double and if you really look at what people are getting for their money, I would venture to say the cost of an F18 or other performance boat is a better value, relative to what you are purchasing, now than the boats that were being raced 20 years ago. Do we need those things – that is debatable, but it is what we have progressed to.

If costs are the driving factor, then hey there is a class still for you – Rick here would love to see everyone on Waves.

Are you kidding me? You may try to sell it by the pound but nobody buys it by the pound. Bagging and infusion takes less labor then hand lay-up of the olden days, the labor is at Asian rates, the finish is the result of the mold or tooling. OK High tech parts may cost more I still don't see 50% but I'm getting dizzy from the spin.

Well, sounds like some domestic, boutique builder could produce small quantities with a nice tidy profit built in!

Sorry for my passion but I feel the boat builders in the US have gone the way of Wal-Mart - Made in Asia. This entire shift means there is more profit to the company yet we see higher prices to the customers. We will see what happens to quality as time goes on. But if you budget to drop 30k - 45K for one or two years of sailing cool.

It goes back to if you want to play you got to pay and if they can get away with it so be it.

Here’s the spin.
I build composites for a living so I know a bit about this. I do not build boats anymore so there is no interest here on my part other than as an observer.

Polyester resin, gel coat, chop strand mat and rovings are all purchased by the pound. These are the things that make up your H16 of the day. I have visited a factory making F16. They were using Vinylester resin and gel coat still purchased by the pound. The fabrics are textile weaves, knit cloth and uni directional fabrics. The knits are still by the pound, but the uni and textiles are by the square yard. (Note Chop strand mat and woven roving run between 1.05 1nd 1.50 a pound, knits anywhere up to about 2.50/lb depending on the fabric weight, where a 6oz textile weave is about 3/sy or almost $9 per pound should you care to compare)

With an H16 assuming your mold is good you glue together the hull and deck, trim the edge and you are done. The newer performance hulls all have finished seams, requiring labor to fair and finish whether it if it is gel coat or paint it is still a lot of work. I have followed your blog – so you should know a little bit about the amount of work that goes into a fair shinny surface. Apart from the regulations on most developed countries this is a big part of the reason many of the companies have gone to China.

Open up your Harken or Ronstan catalog and look up the difference in price between the carbo line and the Hexaratchet stuff, look up Dyneema lines vs. pure polyester, look at sat-masters vs. holed chain plates. Everyone more the double at current prices. Add to that the fact the cost of the cheap stuff has still had its fair share of increase as well.

Our junior sailing fleet is made up of Sabots with dacron sails and Open Bics with clear plastic, wind surfer type sails. The dacron sails are pretty much bullet proof, the plastic not so much. At three years old they started to crack and tear. It was costing us $40 a panel to repair vs. replacing them for $450 each.

One of the kid's father works for Neil Pryde. He goes to their loft in China every two months. He looked at the Bic sails and said he could get them duplicated in his loft for $150 and he'd cover the shipping.

Here I agree with you, on the bail out to China. Pretty crappy and it is not a US only issue as several Euro builders have and are making the jump as well. You can all buy boats now made inthe same shop - what a deal.

You do have 1 performance cat builder still building in the US - Falcon

Yep! And as long as Matt keeps the build in the US that's where I'll buy my next F18!

Youre not factoring the cost of hardware
I just built out an acat mast
I thought I could save some money just buying a bare tube

20 hrs labor and $1,700 in hardware later I had a mast...

There's a lot of hardware that goes into a complete F18

mimi not to get into a debate my point is they, me and you buy bulk 1 gallon, 5 gallon, or a drum of resin, a roll of cloth. I agree that cost is fixed by some unit of measurement.
They do not purchase say 12.32 pound for an individual boat or part. I have been in more than a handful of small boatbuilding shops (boats less than 40 feet) looking at the operations and some very large ship yards…
When I bought my first NACRA 5.2 I cleaned up the seams on that hull anything can be taken to the 10th degree. I’m guilty of that 100 times over I guess that is why I like to build boats and restore old cars.
It has seem that costs have gotten out of control…..well until or if I every roll out the TMS-20 then everything I say now will be retracted except build in USA always.

I gotta ask. What was the breakdown on 1700 in mast parts?

i would think economies of scale are needed to be profitable (that doesn't even take "competitive" into account)

I think if you're laying up a hull with a glass chopper gun, you will be buying glass spools by the pound.

Ha I remember my first boat building job they had a hell of a chopper gun!

Jake how do you vacuum bag Chopper Mat?

There was alot of hardware in the same boat 5 years ago at almost half the price. The factories are taking everyone for a ride ,dealers included.

It would be interesting to know (not that we ever will), what percentage of the big builders' selling price represents their marketing costs.

Mast hardware cost $1700?? what did you get? Can you give us a list?

Does marketing include paying for all the top jocks to race the boats at all the top events and all the expenses involved in making sure you win at events by having the best kit sailed by the best crew, of course. Does it include all the shiny adds in the yachting mags, does it include the latest high tech offices and the managing directors bonus for growing the company turn over, of course.

Sadly the cost of actually building the boats will be the smallest part in the total cost of manufacturing and selling the boats.

The second boat builder I worked for - power boats - in the late 70's really didn't need the money it was more that he wanted a boat with his name on the boat. Anyway he left the business when liability insurance got so high, offered it me, I ran the business for him. I almost took the deal but decide on a real job as I was getting married. You always wonder what if …. The mark-up was about 2/3rds back then on the complete boat, plus everything you sold them as an add-on was gravy not counting return shop fees. But like I said he did not want the insurance liabilities he already had his pile of money.

Wayne, you make it sound like building boats is a real business with a goal of making a profit, not so different from any other business really... I am not suggesting that there are massive amounts to be made or that builders are greedy, I haven't seen too many of them with 3 houses and ferrari's....

Now, I need to buy a car next week, can't decide between the cayenne or the range rover..

If you want to make a small fortune building boats start with a big one

Hobie 16s have never been made with chop strand mat or rovings in the hull laminate.

And they're still made in the USA. You could buy two of them for what an F18 costs.

And I don't buy the hardware spin either. Harken Carbo blocks are less expensive than comparable Harken Classic blocks.

I'm not saying anybody's getting rich here, but something ain't right.

People on this forum bemoan shrinking fleets and that "there's no new blood". Has anyone considered that high-tech boats are just too expensive and demanding for newbies? That they don't see the benefit of dropping $25K on a toy?

And in the meantime, you slag off Hobie 16s as "beginner boats", "pitchpole machines" and look down your noses because they aren't "high tech".

You're "high-teching" yourself into a very limited existence.

10K for a Hobie 16 ain't cheap. What was the price of a hobie 16 in the mid 80's 1500-2000. Do you realize that used 80s and 90s hobies are selling for more then the cost new(20 years ago). But it is not just cats. Look at the laser(same boat higher price).

Funny - but more often true then not! I have one friend that started from hocking everything to start-up his boat building business to making over a million when he sold it. It was and still is a great boat. 10 years later he is living in his shop and his ferrari 308 does not run but he did what he wanted to do that has no price on it!

IIRC, the H-16 was about the same price as a Toyota Corolla when it first came out. Now it is much less, fwiw.