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Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? #252631
09/24/12 11:18 AM
09/24/12 11:18 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP

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Hi all,

it looks like synthetic rigging is becoming more and more common in the yachting world. Have the time now arrived for beachcats also to go synthetic?

For our boat I am serious about using synthetic for all stays but keep the diamonds in SS wire.

Earlier it was suggested to keep some SS wire for the sections wrapped around the mast when rotating the mast. Still valid?

I have seen Colligo Marine referenced and SK78Max as one line option. Others?

Anybody with experience or opinions?

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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252633
09/24/12 11:59 AM
09/24/12 11:59 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Been there and done that, it has so many advantages that it should be a no brainer, easily spliced, widely available, lighter in both guage and weight, easy on the hands and body when you end up crashing into it and the list goes on.

The one downside is that I could not ever halt the very slight creep over time. Its very little but never the less I had to adjust the rigging every time I used the boat and by consequence just couldn't get the boat settled to one constant rig setting.

Sadly I gave up and now have gone back to steel rigging.

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252634
09/24/12 12:01 PM
09/24/12 12:01 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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What kind of fibers did you use and what size?

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252636
09/24/12 12:12 PM
09/24/12 12:12 PM
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waynemarlow Offline
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At the time ( which was a about 4 years ago ) the Marlow D12 was about the only real high strength available, but in theory absoluteley fitted the brief. I used 4mm all around but in hindsight I should have gone down a size to 3mm which may have stopped some of the creep. I notice to that you can get this D12 now in pre streteched form so maybe it is worth a go.

D12 is one of those ropes I find totally indespensible, you can do almost everything on a boat with it, from soft shackles to main sheet ( in the cascade system ) to the spinny retrieve where it is soft enough that it never seems to burn the spinny no matter how hard you try.

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252637
09/24/12 12:15 PM
09/24/12 12:15 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP

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Thanks!

I heard referenced to size for creep and not strength. So 5mm Dux75Max (that is pre-stretched Dux75) was suggested for a beachcat. Does that make sense in your opinion?

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252643
09/24/12 01:10 PM
09/24/12 01:10 PM
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waynemarlow Offline
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5mm really touches on being aerodynamically brick like. To be honest why change from steel, its very well proven, you could use 2.5mm if you want, widely available at relatively modest cost, easy to rig and to be honest weight shouldn't be a problem ?

I wasted a good few weeks titavating about to simply get easily adjustiable rigs, in hindsight they were very wasted weeks.

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252644
09/24/12 01:17 PM
09/24/12 01:17 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP

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Steel is heavy exactly where I dont want weight. I would also like to make the stays myself.
On the Tornado I belive we had 4mm dyform wire. Not far from 5mm..

How big is the drag vs reduced weight, and how to quantify the advantage/disadvantage for each option? I believe the added leverage in the rig when sailing in any kind of waves reduces the propelling force far more than the drag subtracts from the propelling force. But I am unable to quantify this.

Anybody?

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252702
09/25/12 11:22 AM
09/25/12 11:22 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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My main concern would be about the synthetic stuff being cut or frayed and then breaking while I'm out racing. My steel stay wires are not that heavy in the first place and I like not having to worry about stretch or breakage, especially when I leave the boat with the mast up for a month or more.


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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252707
09/25/12 11:57 AM
09/25/12 11:57 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Would synthetic wires break more often on beachcats compared to larger multis like Farrier trimarans, or 60 foot tris?
I dont think so smile

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252708
09/25/12 12:02 PM
09/25/12 12:02 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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My nightmare is when you leave your beach cat alone overnight and some clown with a knife or a cigarette lighter comes by...

The bigger boats are usually kept at more secure locations, and they save more weight up high as their wires weigh quite a bit more. I think my steel stay are thinner than 3mm, so the synthetic stuff would add drag up high, right? Is that better or worse than a few oz. of weight?


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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252710
09/25/12 12:09 PM
09/25/12 12:09 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Would that guy take the same knife or lighter to the trampoline or whatever? I dont know. Around my area boats are most often left alone.

I am willing to trade that risk against some performance smile

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252712
09/25/12 12:42 PM
09/25/12 12:42 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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You live in a better place, no doubt! Here in Florida you can't leave ANYTHING outside over night, or you risk losing it if it's small enough to be hauled off, or damaged, if it's in a public spot.

There have been many guys who have found cigarette burns on their tramps the next morning at a public beach regatta.


Blade F16
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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252713
09/25/12 01:02 PM
09/25/12 01:02 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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I leave my boat at the club and dont worry about it. No fences at the club, mainroad to the town passes 100 meters from the lot. Pedestrian road passes almost through the club. Except from kids who wants to jump on the "trampoline" and one incident where we either lost a locking pin or somebody removed it. There have been no man-made issues with our boats there at least.

Resale value for a stolen cat in the domestic market would be nil.

Perhaps you should relocate to this place and begin flying for SAS wink


Other concerns or thoughts about synthetic rigging? How about the drag issue Wayne mentioned with 5mm stays instead of 2.5/3mm?

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252736
09/26/12 10:30 AM
09/26/12 10:30 AM
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Australia
macca Offline
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you should not forget the dynamic elasticity difference with dyneema and wire. You will notice that the boat feels softer if you change to dyneema.

As a good example, the M2 class changed from unidirectional wound aramid side stays to PBO and within one regatta they noticed that the chainplates were pulling out of the deck on almost all boats... the PBO was transfering the loads much more directly and hence the issues...


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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252739
09/26/12 10:50 AM
09/26/12 10:50 AM
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pgp Offline
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I'd be opposed to changing class rules. Change just creates dissent and ill-will.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252740
09/26/12 10:52 AM
09/26/12 10:52 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Wait a sec Macca, I thought PBO was also a fiber, but much less elastic than aramid?

What would you recommend as a budget solution for fiber rigging on an F16 to be sailed by a 102kg crew (102kg + equipment/clothes)?

Aaaaand.... What are you currently filling your time with? Still sailing? Boating business or something completly different?

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: pgp] #252742
09/26/12 10:53 AM
09/26/12 10:53 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP

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Originally Posted by pgp
I'd be opposed to changing class rules. Change just creates dissent and ill-will.


Did you post to the wrong thread Pete? I see no changes to class rules to implement fiber based rigging?

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252745
09/26/12 11:13 AM
09/26/12 11:13 AM
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pgp Offline
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No, all these discussions usually lead to talk of rules changes. Sorry, guess I jumped the gun.

I'm satisfied with my equipment as it is.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252764
09/26/12 12:55 PM
09/26/12 12:55 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Wait a sec Macca, I thought PBO was also a fiber, but much less elastic than aramid?

What would you recommend as a budget solution for fiber rigging on an F16 to be sailed by a 102kg crew (102kg + equipment/clothes)?

Aaaaand.... What are you currently filling your time with? Still sailing? Boating business or something completly different?


Aramid is much less elastic than Dyneema (although a unidirectional dyneema SK90 is pretty good these days) but PBO is really great stuff and has a very small amount of elasticity and it is a noticeable difference. We are using solid carbon on a new project now and it is a huge step up from PBO in stiffness and elasticity so we expect to see a similar gain.

For a beach cat like your F16 I think you will struggle to find anything off the shelf that is better than wire for the same diameter, but you should have a look at easy rigging if you are serious about it. Sure its more expensive than wire or rope, but its a lot better.

As for my current project.... you will all see soon enough smile it pretty special and will certainly make the news.


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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252765
09/26/12 01:04 PM
09/26/12 01:04 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP

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I dont mind going up in diameter and trade drag for weight reduction. I'll see if I can find uni SK90.. Starting to unravel uni carbon cloth and glue on terminals myself would be a bit too exciting I think, even if fun! What is the UV rating for carbon fibers in the sun..

Easy Rigging is noted..

Looking forward to see the announcement of the project!

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