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#254738 - 11/14/12 01:44 PM Re: Increased weight [Re: mini]  
Joined: Aug 2005
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PTP Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by mini

I believe the intent of the F16 was to be an owner’s class, not a manufacturer’s class. I chose to buy a lighter boat because that is what I wanted. I do not care if someone else buys another brand, but it does bother me that they then want to tell me I will have to carry weight, just because their boats builder elected not to build a true F16, but some franken 18 JR

yeah, what he said

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#254739 - 11/14/12 01:49 PM Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp]  
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pgp Offline
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Then you better check and be sure you've paid your dues. What happens is, the people who want to change the rules, wait until activism within the class has quieted, then they can make whatever changes they want without opposition. All organizations are like that.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#254757 - 11/15/12 01:54 AM Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp]  
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Hans_Ned_111 Offline
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Hans_Ned_111  Offline
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Netherlands
Originally Posted by pgp
Then you better check and be sure you've paid your dues. What happens is, the people who want to change the rules, wait until activism within the class has quieted, then they can make whatever changes they want without opposition. All organizations are like that.


This is a key comment and actually happening. I did not get the enough time and support from the secretary to work together with him on further structure work for the class ( he was basicly working on changes for the class ) . There is a basic plan made from the time working with John but needs to be fine tuned and approved.

Hans

#254762 - 11/15/12 05:17 AM Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp]  
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pgp Offline
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This is probably the single best reason for paying dues. It shows you're awake and have a vested interest in what happens.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#254772 - 11/15/12 09:30 AM Re: Increased weight [Re: waynemarlow]  
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tback Offline
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Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by waynemarlow

If all the manufacturers make boats at 120kgs then only boats can be purchased at 120kgs and therefore the manufacturers control the vote.


I guess I don't understand this logic. Class rules state a minimum weight of 107kg; therefore boat manufacturers are okay to build any product they beleive is sellable and marketable regardless of weight (albeit it must be > 107kg).

Using your logic if all boat manufacturers built boats at 107kg then only 107kg boats would be sold ... but that's not consistent with Class Rules. I believe, all manufacturers of F16's today are in compliant with Class Rules

Originally Posted by waynemarlow

AHPC set out and marketed their boats well, they had top class sailors win events, they discounted and made sure their boats were seen at events. They gave good backup and had a good design, albeit probably 20 kgs over weight. They had good manufacturing processes in a cheap labour environment, they took the marketing of there boats seriously and because of that they are now the dominating manufacturer.

I say well done, you deserve to be top dog and now you can dictate to what should be a long running class. Every other manufacturer out there dithered about or didn't have the budget to really push their products and thus lost the marketing campaign.


I'll give AHPC (and their distributors) all the praises for executing on a sound business plan. They're building and marketing a boat that fits the F16 Class Rules.

However, I don't think it reasonable that we make a major modification of Class Rules because a Manufacturer should be able to "dictate to what should be a long running class".

I think most of us had parents that encouraged us to participate in sports, theater, music, academics and to try as hard as we can to be the best that we can WITHIN THE RULES--NOT CHANGE THEM to fit our strengths.

Is there a valid reason to change our rules other than "top dog and now you can dictate to what should be a long running class"?

Maybe every years winner of the F16 Worlds should be able to make rule changes ... clearly they are the Top Dog.


Originally Posted by waynemarlow

If the class was to vote I would actually vote to increase the weight further to about 130kgs, its at this point the F16's suddenly start to become competitive in SCHRS and Texel handicap systems. At this weight the performance is not lost on handicap and it gives good margins on build durability.


From the Formula 16 HomePage:
The F16 is designed to sail equally well 1-up and 2-up, and what's more both configurations race each other on elapsed time.

"....race each other on elapsed time."

When did we care about SCHRS and Texel ratings?

Shouldn't we be building this Class for the benefit of the F16 sailors to race against each other.

Are there really regattas that a fleet of F16 show up and they don't race 1st across wins?

Originally Posted by waynemarlow

The ironic thing is that if the weight is increased to 125kgs, it will have the opposite effect to what the manufacturers hope, that of sealing off the market to just 1 or 2 suppliers. At 125 kgs the likes of Hobie and others will all have boats on the water within 12 months, afterall all they have to build is hulls and use components from within their own range for ancillaries such as boards and masts. Cheap cheap development and a no brainer to at least be part of a probably the biggest growing market in small cat sailing.


I say again, if we're part of "the biggest growing market in small cat sailing", what benefit does the weight addition really provide for us ... the sailors or the Class?


USA 777
#254777 - 11/15/12 11:17 AM Re: Increased weight [Re: tback]  
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David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by tback

When did we care about SCHRS and Texel ratings?



At least someone finally said it! Building a boat to a handicap rule is the quickest path to the dead boat society. I gotta get out of here before my head explodes.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#254786 - 11/16/12 02:25 AM Re: Increased weight [Re: David Ingram]  
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Hans_Ned_111 Offline
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Netherlands
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by tback

When did we care about SCHRS and Texel ratings?




At least someone finally said it! Building a boat to a handicap rule is the quickest path to the dead boat society. I gotta get out of here before my head explodes.


That's one off the arguments i tried to tell the people who wanted to change the rules to meet rating systems. It has been a fight for the last 2 years.

#254788 - 11/16/12 04:37 AM Re: Increased weight [Re: David Ingram]  
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by tback

When did we care about SCHRS and Texel ratings?



At least someone finally said it! Building a boat to a handicap rule is the quickest path to the dead boat society. I gotta get out of here before my head explodes.


To be honest if you are prepared to bury your head in the sand then by all means then we probably won't miss you.

If you think that any class can survive outside of the Texel and SCHRS then you are living on past times. The 1 boat that has done well in F16 guise, the Viper is over weight by some margins and knowingly then uses its 104 guise in most handicap races. In those races which usually have far more publicity than any of our own F16 races, it can do well under the more forgiving handicap than if it used the F16 rating. Winning events means sales, consumers are yes gullible enough to not see through the short term and plan for the long term. just look how many people have bought the Iphone 5 when it wasn't really much of an upgrade on the 4S

Now wake up everybody, winning races outside of purely F16 races is probably more important to the class than winning a purely F16 race at this time. We simply do not yet have enough boats on the water to not race in handicap events, but that will happen.

How about we then plan for the long term, swallow a bit of pride ( and yes I am an advocat and have fought hard to keep the lower weight over the years )and say yes bring the weight up to 120kgs and really really get the class established. In truth it probably only effects few manufacturers and they probably with everything onboard are around the 110 - 115kgs anyway. 5kgs of ballast is neither here nor there.

Once the class is established in numbers then perhaps the members ( who are the voters, not the manufacturers )could perhaps do what is happening now and lower the weight, a few more enlightened people may well open there minds perhaps and see that the original weight may have been a good thing.

We still have a problem though with AHPC and the Viper, if they don't get their way and raise the weight to more match their boats ( the majority of potential voters afterall ) they will begin to set up OD races excluding all other F16 boats. It will probably mean that Hobie and others will not enter the fray, meaning higher prices and less choice. We either bite the bullit now and raise the weight to compromise or we simply accept that Viper and Nacra will be the only players in town.

#254799 - 11/16/12 07:42 AM Re: Increased weight [Re: tback]  
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Tom Whitehurst Offline
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Pensacola Florida
For those not aware WHY you should vote YES for an increase in the min weight!

Ya need to send a lot of money for a all carbon 107k boat. The mfg's making production fiberglass / epoxy / Alum spars are much heavier 125kg/275lbs.

So if you want to be competitive for all the average joe to go sailing ya need to increase the weight.

Go ask Matt @ falcon what a min carbon F16 costs.

So....
107kg a boat weighs 235lbs
129lg a boat weighs 284lbs ( advertised weights ) I asked Robbie Daniel and the last time they weight a V16 they averaged 275lbs

If you don't think the 50lbs is critical on this boat your only kidding yourself.

Yes this is a development class but AT WHAT COST!

#254803 - 11/16/12 08:21 AM Re: Increased weight [Re: Tom Whitehurst]  
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waynemarlow Offline
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Totally agree that an all carbon boat would be ideal and no a F16 at 107 kgs is not all carbon, just look at the Vision, almost all glass hulls and just carbon mast.

We have hacked the weight cost / issue to death over the years, but little did we appreciate that 50lbs makes very little differnce in speed and yet softens the harshness of low weight in handicap ratings.

This is something that has escaped most of us used to more V shaped hulls of past generations of boats and something that the controling authorties such as ISAf have yet to catch up on ( although they are aware that boats are no longer fitting into existing computer models and adjusting them slowly ).

It is also something that most internet sailors just cannot comprehend and it would seem that the few who are actually sailing these boats are now beginning to understand.

#254804 - 11/16/12 08:23 AM Re: Increased weight [Re: waynemarlow]  
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David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Wayne handicap numbers are NOT engraved in stone. By your own statements you believe the heavy F16 has a very favorable rating. You have to know that situation won't last.

The idea of increasing the weight only to lower it later doesn't make any sense at all. If you think AHPC will have a successful OD fleet you're wrong. There is only one successfull multihull fleet and that's the Hobie 16, all the others are dead or dieing. To go down the OD path now is fleet suicide.

If the fleet does vote to go heavy what is to prevent the light F16 owners from creating an F16HT class? If I had light weight F16 there is no way you could convince me that strapping lead to my boat is good for the class because some the owners want to dominate handicap races (due to a soft number).

Hobie will NEVER build a F16 light or heavy. Hobie is a kayak company and building beach cats just doesn't make the same $$. I'd also predict that the Wildcat will never be replaced and when sales don't justify the production cost they will get out of the F18 game.

I know I'm not going to change your mind and I have no cat in this fight but some of the things you say just have to be challenged.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#254810 - 11/16/12 08:54 AM Re: Increased weight [Re: David Ingram]  
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Wayne handicap numbers are NOT engraved in stone. By your own statements you believe the heavy F16 has a very favorable rating. You have to know that situation won't last.

I know I'm not going to change your mind and I have no cat in this fight but some of the things you say just have to be challenged.


One thing for certain is, I'm not saying the Viper has a favorible handicap at all, what I am saying is that at 1.018 it is competitive with other modern boats such as the F18's and Hurricanes ie with the right skipper and wind ranges it sometimes comes out on top. At 0.989 ( F16 ) it is a real task to get in the points such is the competition at the top level. My guess is that the Viper is about right.

For a long time I have voiced that the ratings are still too biased over weight and are behind the game / missed that the rigs are now having more of an impact than what we think. There are a number of classes that have recently updated the rigs with great success and rejuvinated old boats and then wonder why they are doing very very well in handicap racing. I would guess ratings such as SCHRS will eventually catch up, but it does great damage along the way, designers can now design and introduce boats faster than the ratings are willingly changed.

Do agree on the Hobie issue. But there are others out there who will probably step in.

#254812 - 11/16/12 09:49 AM Re: Increased weight [Re: waynemarlow]  
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tback Offline
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tback  Offline
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Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Wayne handicap numbers are NOT engraved in stone. By your own statements you believe the heavy F16 has a very favorable rating. You have to know that situation won't last.

I know I'm not going to change your mind and I have no cat in this fight but some of the things you say just have to be challenged.


One thing for certain is, I'm not saying the Viper has a favorible handicap at all, what I am saying is that at 1.018 it is competitive with other modern boats such as the F18's and Hurricanes ie with the right skipper and wind ranges it sometimes comes out on top. At 0.989 ( F16 ) it is a real task to get in the points such is the competition at the top level. My guess is that the Viper is about right.

For a long time I have voiced that the ratings are still too biased over weight and are behind the game / missed that the rigs are now having more of an impact than what we think. There are a number of classes that have recently updated the rigs with great success and rejuvinated old boats and then wonder why they are doing very very well in handicap racing. I would guess ratings such as SCHRS will eventually catch up, but it does great damage along the way, designers can now design and introduce boats faster than the ratings are willingly changed.

Do agree on the Hobie issue. But there are others out there who will probably step in.


Wayne,

I've witnessed here in the US, that with the "right skipper", the F16 can compete with the F18's and N20's on straight elapsed time.



USA 777
#254814 - 11/16/12 10:23 AM Re: Increased weight [Re: tback]  
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waynemarlow Offline
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Yup, we have N20's and F18's at my club and even I can whoop their ar*** at times. But and the big but, they whoop my ar** more times than I kick theirs. Over a summer series such we recently have had, you would have to expect that that would be the case.

Anyway water line length will always have a major impact on this sort of thing.

#254818 - 11/16/12 12:01 PM Re: Increased weight [Re: waynemarlow]  
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David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Wayne you are way to preoccupied with sailing handicap.

Sailors that choose their weapon based on how it works in the numbers are horribly fickle and always think the grass is greener. You guys are finally starting to build some great momentum please don't undo it by trying to promote the class through handicap racing.

Changing class rules to accomodate handicap racing just makes me feel unclean.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#254819 - 11/16/12 12:10 PM Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp]  
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Karl_Brogger Offline
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Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Northfield Mn
I heart Ding. Preach it brother!

This is a completely asinine discussion. again.....


I'm boatless.
#254826 - 11/16/12 02:00 PM Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp]  
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mikekrantz Offline
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mikekrantz  Offline
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Ding, What the hell are you doing over here? Have you been in the koolaid again?

#254834 - 11/16/12 02:30 PM Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp]  
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pgp Offline
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pgp  Offline
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laugh


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#254843 - 11/16/12 04:55 PM Re: Increased weight [Re: Tom Whitehurst]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
mini Offline
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mini  Offline
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Posts: 141
Yes 50 or more pounds matter and because of that would I want no part in a class if it is going to requiring that kind of a weight. To me that kills one of the biggest attractions to the F16 class.

I bought a glass boat with a carbon stick that I weighed at 110 kg. (The mast by the way is 1kg over so I could be even less I guess) If I had wanted a heavier boat I could have gotten one. I do not begrudge those that buy other heavier boats. If the weight issue was all that important to them, then they could have easily shopped around and purchased a light weight boat.

Lazy building practices and selling things not designed for their intended purposes do make it better or right. Look at the Telefonica project. 2 Volvo 70s build by 2 yards with the same spec. 1 is heavy and breaks multiple times during its life. The other is light and sails around the world with no issues multiple times. Which 1 is better?

If you want to buy heavy, go ahead, but do not tell the rest of us we can’t. Using marketing hype as a justification is a bit misguided to say the least.

#254846 - 11/16/12 06:00 PM Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp]  
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Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Mini sounds borderline hostile towards the heavier boats. lol

I wouldn't call the Viper lazily built. Its stout.


I'm boatless.
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