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#256072 - 01/08/13 09:16 AM N20 sailplan improvements  
Joined: Dec 2001
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waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Naples, FL
Since it's sort of a dead-boat society now, what improvements to the sailplan would you suggest.

Racing a stock N20 this past weekend and seeing it lined up next to the F18 and F16 at the rigging area letting sails dry,

I could definitely see the deeper draft on the spinnaker of the N20, and it looked like a deeper draft mainsail as well.

As it would appear the carbon mast isn't as bendy as the aluminum F18 masts, would a flatter draft in the lower part of the N20 main help?

And would a flatter spin with a slightly higher shoulder add more speed without sacrificing too much downwind angle?



Jay

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#256320 - 01/16/13 07:05 AM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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bacho Offline
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I'm trying a flatter bigger main, with a bigger jib and a smaller flatter spin.

This is what Randy Smyth and I came up with, keeping the open 20 rule in mind. The idea was that the spin was bigger than it needed to be and created extra drag. The sail area from the spin was moved to the jib and main.

I am not an expert, nor a fantastic sailor but this is what we(mostly he) came up with.

Due to circumstances I have only gotten 2 regattas in on the main and jib and one regatta on the spin. So far I am very pleased with the upwind performance, for the first time I felt like I could point up there with everyone else and seemed to have great boat speed.

The jury is still out on the downwind side of things, I need more time on it.

#256324 - 01/16/13 08:05 AM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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orphan Offline
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Are you adding SQ FT to the main or just changing the shape(More up top and less in the foot)?
How much size did you add to the jib? How is a the larger jib working the self tacking system?

#256327 - 01/16/13 08:24 AM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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bacho Offline
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Here is the comparison of my sails compared to the stock sails. The main has a bigger head. The jib works well so far, it does take some attention to keep it out of the spreaders when the mast is rotated hard. As far as tacking is concerned, there is no noticeable difference in how well it works.


Stock i20: Upwind: Main 194 sq. ft., Jib 49 sq. ft. Mast 15 sq. ft. = 258 sq. ft.
Open 20: Upwind: Main 214 sq. ft. Jib 53 sq. ft. Mast 15 sq. ft. = 282 sq. ft. or 24 sq. ft. more sail area upwind
Stock i20 : Downwind: Main 194, Jib 49, Mast 15, Asymmetric 278 = 50 sq. m
Open 20: Downwind: Main 214, Jib 53, Mast 15, Asymmetric 256 = 50 sq. m

#256329 - 01/16/13 09:10 AM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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orphan Offline
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Do you think the pointing ability came from the extra size or just a better shape?

#256333 - 01/16/13 10:55 AM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: orphan]  
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I would venture a guess that the flatter draft would allow for a better pointing ability as there would be less drag?

And would you need more sail area up top? Seems that when the wind gets much above 5 knots you're starting to open up the top with a pinch of downhaul anyway...

Oh, and what's the difference between downhaul and cunningham? I've lost that part of my brain to make space for more rum.


Jay

#256351 - 01/16/13 06:15 PM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: orphan]  
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bacho Offline
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Originally Posted by orphan
Do you think the pointing ability came from the extra size or just a better shape?


I think the shape, before i could never get my tells to behave properly at that angle. I should mention that my old sails were 2004 vintage.

#256995 - 02/05/13 12:03 PM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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We have the largest fleet of N20's on the East Coast that I am aware here in MD. The boats are inexpensive, fast and have a high sail area to weight ratio, which is needed racing in light air bay conditions. Everyone runs stock sails except occasionally when some experimental stuff gets tried out. In general the fleet here just buys new sails from EP once every 2 or 3 years. We've played the arguments both ways and without definitive data that says the SCHRS rating hit for going open is well compensated for with the open sail plan, it would be a hard switch to make.

There is a noticeable performance difference between a set of blown out 8 year old sails and a set of brand new EP's. I'm curious to know exactly how the performance has changed between a good set of EP N20 sails and the new Open 20 sail plan that Smyth (and maybe others?) have developed? Are you actually able to consistently beat a new design F18 around the course in all conditions? What is the cost difference between EP and Smyth?

Last edited by samc99us; 02/05/13 12:03 PM.

F18 Infusion
#257028 - 02/05/13 03:48 PM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: samc99us]  
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bacho Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
Are you actually able to consistently beat a new design F18 around the course in all conditions? What is the cost difference between EP and Smyth?



Too early to say definitively for me at least. I'm nearly a total goon on my boat and I have very limited time on them. However in single trap conditions, the difference was clear to me. I did extremely well against well-sailed C2s including Robbie Daniels on all upwind legs and even lead a few legs and re-passing Daniels after losing ground downwind. Before I was doing good (for me) to keep the F18's in sight.



My Main and Jib was $2,700 shipped from Smyth, the spin was $1,300 shipped.

#260578 - 06/21/13 09:34 PM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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My new sail plan is much flatter. My upwind performance is greatly improved however my stock EPs were pretty worn. We have an Open 20 fleet sailing on the Gulf Coast. It's comprised of stock 20s, newer Aluminum rigged N20s, and Open 20 rigged boats. It's a very competitive fleet with some exciting races. The latest race was won by a stock 20. Better sailors win races right? I'm very happy with my Glaser Open 20 sails.


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Open 20 - More Cowbell
#5
Bimare 18HT Jav2 - Infidel
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#260643 - 06/24/13 08:49 PM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: Capt_Cardiac]  
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http://youtu.be/hefI37ofVgw

Ok, I'm going to weigh in here. We went with a Glaser main and spin. We would have had them make a jib but they didn't have time to get it done in time for the GT for us. The spin is flatter and the draft seems to be farther forward. It is much more controllable especially in the puffs. It seems to let the boat shoot forward more than just healing over and making you drive off which equals more forward, straight line progress rather than so much zig zaging. I love it, it's a huge step forward for the N20 platform. It's the same size as the EP's but more modern. The main is higher aspect with the same overall size. We wanted to stay with all the same dimensions so as to not push the envelope of tolerance with other N20 sailors that would come do the GT (which seems like a moot point anyway since I get lots of inquiries about it but nobody shows). I think the N20 sail plan is a little over powered in the first place, so more area on the main made little sense to me. The biggest issue is de powering it in anything over 15 knots. San Diego still has the biggest N20 fleet in the US and they are going with the Glazer sails now as well. The new sail plan worked for us in the GT this year very well. Aside from rudder issues on day 2, we had a good competitive run against the F18's and took line honors on day 1 and 4 with a tactical error putting us 2nd to finish by about 20 seconds on day 3. There were a combination of things we did differently this year with the new sail plan being one of them. I think they helped us sail the boat closer to it's DPN number. I definitely need to switch to the 10:1 main sheet now with the new rags.


Lee

Sail fast or get the hell out of the way.
#260651 - 06/25/13 07:38 AM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: TeamChums]  
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Thanks Lee. Good to hear you're happy with your selection.

Given the flatter spin cut, would you say you lose anything over the fuller EP cut in deep-reach conditions - say W/L course?

And with the higher aspect main, did you consider changing the diamond rake or settings?


Jay

#260657 - 06/25/13 10:14 AM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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With the flatter spin, I didn't lose any thing going deeper. If anything, I can get better speed when I heat it up and keep attached airflow better when I drive off with it. On the last day of the GT, it was pretty deep spin sailing. We beat ALL the F18's including the ones that started the Dash one hour ahead of us while being able to drive about 10 degrees deeper with better speed. Likely this was due to the new main as well with the fatter head. I left my mast settings the same as what I was running with the E/P so far. Being heavier I run only about 1 1/4" spreader rake with about 600-700 pounds of tension and my mast rake measurement about an inch above the halfway point on my transom. I think we did stand the rig up one or two holes on the forestay for the last day in anticipation of the light air (6-10 knots).


Lee

Sail fast or get the hell out of the way.
#282887 - 06/14/16 10:14 AM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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Chris9 Offline
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I heard the San Diego Fleet Of N20's have all update their sails? Anybody now anything about that fleet? Who to contact, who made the sails, what were the changes?


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
#282888 - 06/14/16 10:33 AM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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Chris9 Offline
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I heard the San Diego Fleet Of N20's have all update their sails? Anybody now anything about that fleet? Who to contact, who made the sails, what were the changes?


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
#283149 - 07/22/16 08:07 AM Re: N20 sailplan improvements [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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Glaser is going to be tough to beat, especially on the spin front as they have the F18/F16 development experience. What Lee is describing is exactly how a modern F18/F16 and even a less modern (04') Tornado kite perform. They twist off automatically during a gust. I wouldn't want a smaller kite and at least the 2013 Glasers I have are cut deep enough to go downwind in the light.

It may also be worth a talk with Hyde sails (Simon Northrop), they too have the F18 experience but I'm not sure they have the Glaser experience. Performance is also making sails for the boat and they have fast F18 kites. Some MD guys may be getting some older used performance kites for the N20 for comparison.


F18 Infusion

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