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Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva #257900
02/28/13 10:09 AM
02/28/13 10:09 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Thefundamental issues in the recent rules thread buries the lede. While looking for something else this AM... I stumbled on this article. This judge speaks to the same issue...... Port pushing the line on Starbord all the way up to soaking their spin sock before measurement... Originally publshed on Scuttlebut in 2011


Is the ‘Fundamental Principle’ Still Relevant?
By Peter Wilson, US SAILING Umpire/Senior Judge

As a racing sailor who is also a coach, judge and umpire, I worry that the ‘fundamental principle’ which is the foundation of our (mostly) ‘self regulating’ sport has become significantly less relevant. As a consequence, our racing rules appear to have less value to competitors, and the behavior we expect these rules to encourage is not as prevalent as it used to be.

Quoting from the RRS, “Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.” Most of us would agree that this means; 1) If I hit a mark and whether someone sees me do it or not, I should take a one-turn penalty; 2) If I tack to port because I can’t fetch the starting pin and force a boat on starboard to tack when she can fetch, I should take a two-turns penalty whether or not the other boat hails protest; and 3) If a boat fouls me in a way that significantly worsens my position in the race, I should enforce the rules and protest.

However, what I have observed on the race course over the past fifteen years, in the U.S. and abroad, is a growing percentage of sailors who do not enforce and follow the rules. I see sailors break rules with contact between boats and ignore their infraction, even when the other boat protests or the infringing boat gains an advantage in a flagrant foul. I am not talking about incidents where who is at fault is unclear and no penalty turns are taken or no one is protested. We all do that from time to time. I’m talking about the apparent trend towards an obvious level of clear infractions with no action by either party. What seems puzzling is, if it is so easy to exonerate, why does it happen so seldom? Why do sailors break rules and keep on sailing if no one protests? Why do sailors use kinetics when there are no judges around? And a related question is, why aren’t there more protests taken to the room? Are the rules not as relevant in today’s world as they used to be?

Perhaps the best analogy is speeding on the highway. Lots of us drive above the speed limit. But when the radar detector says we are approaching a trap, or we see a cop parked up ahead or coming up behind us, we slow down. But most of the time, the ‘speeders’ speed. Similarly, when there are judges or umpires enforcing Rule 42 (kinetics) on the water, body pumping, rocking, and sculling seem to disappear when the judge boats are close by, but they often reappear when the judge moves on to observe other boats. And, when judges whistle their observation of a foul with the option to protest, competitors usually take their penalty…and when the judges are not around (or don’t whistle/protest), not much happens. Just like speeding, it seems as if one doesn’t break a rule unless an official says we do.

In a recent Laser event, the judges flagged over forty Rule 42 infractions, but observed at least twice as many serious infractions of Part 2 rules (many where boats gained an advantage), and that does not include twice again as many contact incidents observed at the starts with an adequately long line… and fewer than five percent of sailors took voluntary penalty turns. I guess judges can only control the behavior they are authorized to monitor, unless they want to discourage enforcement and compliance by the sailors.

If indeed our racing rules and the ‘fundamental principle’ have become less relevant to many sailors (but not yet the majority) …why is this the case and should we do something about it? Here are some possible reasons for lack of ‘compliance’:

Most of today's sailors under the age of forty have grown up playing a variety of sports where you do not break a rule unless the referee or umpire says you broke a rule (and penalizes you).
Mark roundings in large fleets of Optimists and Lasers have complex situations where no one can figure out who broke a rule, and starts are often so crowded that minor contact is frequent. Both lead to lack of protesting that may well carry over to the rest of the race course.
No harm no foul” is a more practical way to sail. Minor contact or a close incident is viewed as ‘no harm’, so just as going 5 mph above the speed limit doesn’t seem to break the law, neither does minor contact on the starting line.
The protest process most often requires a major time commitment with an uncertain outcome...and the rewards from social activities after sailing are a 'better use of time'.
Protesting is also inhibited by peer pressure, so "you owe me one" can be a more practical solution when you are fouled. Cooperation is far more socially acceptable and productive on the race course.
The rules are complex, particularly for transitions, and only the most dedicated and experienced judges/umpires/sailors understand them well...and most sailors don't take the time to really learn and understand the rules.


What can we do about the problem? Is it practical to fully referee our sport? Of course not...although we know umpiring works pretty well for all concerned in team racing, match racing and medal races. And there is good evidence that having judges or umpires on the course with authority to signal by whistle their observance of a foul, and protest if they want to, can work in big fleets when the judges are positioned at the starts and mark roundings where most incidents occur. However, there are clearly not enough judges or umpires to implement broad scale on the water judging.

So what do we do? Should we abandon the fundamental principle? I would not because the majority of races sailed each year have to rely on it. Should we accept the sailors ‘no harm - no foul’ principle? I would not because clearly it is leading to some ‘no protest - no foul’ behavior where some sailors gain a big advantage. Perhaps we need to change the incentives to protest and at the same time the incentive to exonerate on the water and to avoid the protest room. For example:

1. Give more power to the protestor. Allow a protested boat to take a 25% scoring penalty any time prior to the hearing (unless there is damage or injury or competitive advantage claimed in the protest). However, if the protested boat does not take a scoring penalty before the protest hearing (either voluntarily or as a result of arbitration) and is deemed to have broken a rule by the protest committee, the penalty is a DNE.
2. Make it easier for a protested boat to exonerate on the water. Change the alternative penalty for immediate exoneration to one-turn except within the zone or when there is contact, where it remains two-turns.
3. Require on-the-water judges with Sailing Instruction permission to protest at all national championships, ladder events and international qualifiers. An on-the-water protest by a judge/umpire is an automatic three turn penalty (two more turns than a voluntary penalty, except at a mark or with contact), and can still be taken to the protest room if there is damage, injury, or competitive advantage is gained, for a possible DNE.
4. Increase the penalty for a breach of rule 2 (fair sailing), perhaps a DNE and a DNC for the next nearest race in the series.

Some may feel that the direction (and it is only that) suggested above is draconian, and perhaps it is. However I believe the issue needs to be addressed with big changes if we want to reverse the decline in adherence to the ‘fundamental principle’.





March 17, 2011

IMO... he nails the problem.... Less convinced about the solns.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 02/28/13 10:53 AM.

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Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Mark Schneider] #257904
02/28/13 11:25 AM
02/28/13 11:25 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Well written but the bottom line is the sailors are in control. It doesn't matter what the rules say if the two parties involved in the infraction make a deal on the water or have an unwritten understanding how they will handle the situation.

Didn't there used to be a rule that if a third party witnessed a foul and no action was taken by either party the third party could protest those involved and they could both be flicked? HUGE D!CK move but if you really feel the game is suffering with how it's being played now that is one rule that could force the actions you're looking for.

It's also been my observation that it's the youth sailors that will file a protest and will happily sit in the room to make their case, maybe because they are too young to drink. Maybe we should ban adult beverages at regattas. Probably not a such a great idea to boost attendance though, on the bright side we'd get more protests (maybe).

This gentlemen also made a good point about the sailors not knowing the rules. If a sailor gets fouled and doesn't even know they got fouled then as far as I'm concerned it is shame on them for not making the effort to learn the rules.

Another reason protests are often not filed... there is a significant lack of rules knowledge and those that know and understand the rules simply are not interested in sitting in a protest room while the party goes on without them.

It's not perfect but the system works as far as I'm concerned. If I'm fouled I'll protest. I've been in this game way too long to expect people to do the right thing so it's on me to protest or not. I've accepted the fact that there is no way you're going to legislate morality.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Mark Schneider] #257905
02/28/13 11:27 AM
02/28/13 11:27 AM
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Jake Offline
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I think that if the sailors don't have an issue with it, you don't need to do anything. I'm not going to get upset on a club race day if another boat is fouled lightly by another boat and they don't end up in the protest room or screaming at each other but, instead, one says "you owe me" to the other.


Jake Kohl
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Jake] #257906
02/28/13 11:33 AM
02/28/13 11:33 AM
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David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
I think that if the sailors don't have an issue with it, you don't need to do anything. I'm not going to get upset on a club race day if another boat is fouled lightly by another boat and they don't end up in the protest room or screaming at each other but, instead, one says "you owe me" to the other.


I liked it better the other way Jake, short and to the point.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: David Ingram] #257908
02/28/13 12:08 PM
02/28/13 12:08 PM
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could it not be argued that in said club race scenario, you noting a protest on the offending boat might be an opportunity to encourage (or educate) that boat on rules knowledge?

I know many a keen sailor who protested me was nice enough to educate me on whatever rule I was afoul of. In some cases, Ding even told me how to avoid the infraction or move to block the other boat's ability to put me in a fouling situation.

Perhaps the current culture's view of "rubbin' is racin" and our promotion of "bad boys/girls" who gain notoriety by pushing limits and rules might have something to do with this behavior?


Jay

Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: waterbug_wpb] #257914
02/28/13 12:45 PM
02/28/13 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
could it not be argued that in said club race scenario, you noting a protest on the offending boat might be an opportunity to encourage (or educate) that boat on rules knowledge?

I know many a keen sailor who protested me was nice enough to educate me on whatever rule I was afoul of. In some cases, Ding even told me how to avoid the infraction or move to block the other boat's ability to put me in a fouling situation.

Perhaps the current culture's view of "rubbin' is racin" and our promotion of "bad boys/girls" who gain notoriety by pushing limits and rules might have something to do with this behavior?


Definitely. We do hold each other to a particular expectation of fairness and I don't have any hesitation to talk to someone about a situation on the course to either increase my knowledge or theirs (even if it is to help them understand they are being an butt). We have a lot of campfire rule review sessions after racing in our local catamaran and club fleets. In almost every case, if one of us feels fouled and promptly notifies another offending party, they'll take the penalty turns even if they're not sure and we'll talk about it later. I'm quite happy with the level of honesty and our ability to discuss things at just about every level of our sport.

I can't say that I see the same level of people considering that a rule hasn't been broken if they haven't been called out on it that the article is written about....but, there is a well functioning judiciary system in place for the sailors to self-police. You can not like what you see on the water if you want, but you can also protest it if you are racing. If the sailors have a clear and accessible method to stop the existing practices that the author doesn't like, is it really a problem if they choose not to act?


Jake Kohl
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Mark Schneider] #257924
02/28/13 01:48 PM
02/28/13 01:48 PM
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"Didn't there used to be a rule that if a third party witnessed a foul and no action was taken by either party the third party could protest those involved and they could both be flicked? HUGE D!CK move but if you really feel the game is suffering with how it's being played now that is one rule that could force the actions you're looking for."

I don't always see this as a D!CK move. There are time when a foul leads to an advantage to the boat but does not really effect the boat fouled. The person fouled may say no problem but an advantage was gained over a boat that was not fouled. If the person does not withdraw see no problem with a 3rd party protesting. Under the rules the person should withdraw but if not should be held to account(even if by a 3rd party).

Last edited by orphan; 02/28/13 01:49 PM.
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: orphan] #257925
02/28/13 01:53 PM
02/28/13 01:53 PM
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You do potentially get into a situation where if a boat in position #1 or #2 creates a foul and isn't held accountable to it by the other boat, that boat #3 may have a worse result because if the offending boat had performed it's penalty turn, boat #3 would have had a better finish.

So, yes, you also need to be considerate to this.


Jake Kohl
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Mark Schneider] #257927
02/28/13 02:10 PM
02/28/13 02:10 PM
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David Ingram Offline
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You're in front, you see a foul behind no action is taken you protest... d!ck move.

It's moot anyway looks like it got pulled from the rules in 2001.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: David Ingram] #257931
02/28/13 03:36 PM
02/28/13 03:36 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Hey, I was pleased to see that I was not alone in standing for the fundamental principals. (I could have said a lot of typing had I stumbled on this POV)

I am very curious how you guys see the "mild rules infractions" on the water... AND the F18 class noise about paint, and sail reinforcement panels, etc etc, AND finally how you think it relates to some guy soaking his snuffer sock before measurement...

To me... they are ALL THE SAME... There is no difference between these fouls.... all could involve some rule 69 allegations.

But, when the game is one of... OK... YOU call me on my foul... You better be an a hole or you will not be playing the actual game on the water..... I may be better off just going sailing.... who needs the aggravation on the weekend.


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Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Mark Schneider] #257932
02/28/13 03:41 PM
02/28/13 03:41 PM
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Is it?
Let's say you have to beat a boat by 2 boats to be in the medals. You have the boat pinned to the layline. The boat ducks you but fouls the boat behind you doing it. The boat behind does not call a foul because that boat is not effected.
Just because it happens behind you does not mean it does not have any effect on your regatta.

This is the problem with the "you owe me one". You really owe everyone one.

Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Mark Schneider] #257936
02/28/13 04:43 PM
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Jake Offline
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<****.


Jake Kohl
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Jake] #257939
02/28/13 05:03 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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he he..

I am not arbitraging the rules here.. I will take any objective violation... then apply this minset

No harm no foul” is a more practical way to sail. Minor contact or a close incident is viewed as ‘no harm’

you mentioned this kind of behavior in the other thread... So.. the least of the situations is not one of bending the rules for advantage.. just doing... the no harm no foul thing. You simply don't call your own foul.

Where does this mindset lead you?.....
to me.... it leads to... "what the hell... Make the measurement guy on the scales call me on my soaking wet spinaker... If he misses it... I save a kilo. if not... i put my dry spin in the sock and then head off to sail measurement.... I have the day allocated for this crap...."

I think I am failing to persuade anyone that the old game was best.... Maybe I have to look at his alternatives...


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: David Ingram] #257940
02/28/13 05:29 PM
02/28/13 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
You're in front, you see a foul behind no action is taken you protest... d!ck move.

Is it? Not if the butt that you are protesting is the same sorry SOB (d!ck) that T-boned you last year and cost you the regatta.



So who's the d!ck? Just sayin' . . .


Philip
USA #1006
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Mark Schneider] #257941
02/28/13 07:16 PM
02/28/13 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
You simply don't call your own foul.



I always call my own foul. I mean ALWAYS. It doesn't matter if I'm three miles away, I hit a mark, I do turns. That's how I sail. What I think you confuse is that there are situations where you can't always accurately determine if you made a foul. This does happen periodically and I rely on the other boat to indicate that I did.


Jake Kohl
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: P.M.] #257952
03/01/13 08:31 AM
03/01/13 08:31 AM
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David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by David Ingram
You're in front, you see a foul behind no action is taken you protest... d!ck move.

Is it? Not if the butt that you are protesting is the same sorry SOB (d!ck) that T-boned you last year and cost you the regatta.



So who's the d!ck? Just sayin' . . .


Just because you do it out of revenge, anger or payback doesn't make it any less of a d!ck move... just sayin.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Mark Schneider] #257953
03/01/13 08:34 AM
03/01/13 08:34 AM
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David Ingram Offline
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Interesting position you're taking here Mark. Were you not advocating giving those a pass on a cut and dry F18 measurement violation at the 2011 Worlds?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Jake] #257954
03/01/13 08:41 AM
03/01/13 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
You simply don't call your own foul.



I always call my own foul. I mean ALWAYS. It doesn't matter if I'm three miles away, I hit a mark, I do turns. That's how I sail. What I think you confuse is that there are situations where you can't always accurately determine if you made a foul. This does happen periodically and I rely on the other boat to indicate that I did.


+1,000,000 Jake!

Like the discussion.

What I see as another point in the enforcement and application of the rules is...The concept that only sea lawyers and A-holes protest.

We have a pretty competitve week night series, lots of nat level sailors. Needless to say, we often end up in the same vicinity of each other in groups at the marks. Now we are all pushing and there are times that you may get caught out of position. If you have been racing long enough, you've been there. There is no shame in commiting a foul or calling someone on a foul. It's not personal, it's all part of the game. For the most part circles are done and if not we set up a mini protest hearing and we decide on it. It makes for a great learning tool for rules and hearing prep.

We can compete at other sports (I use Hockey as an example) You trip, slash, etc someone you take your penalty, it's over you move on. An infraction on the water should be the same way. To play at a higher level you have to put it out there sometimes, and you just don't always pull it off.

It doesn't make you an A-hole, it make you a competitor. JUST do your turns if you know it was wrong.




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Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Mark Schneider] #257955
03/01/13 08:57 AM
03/01/13 08:57 AM
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David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
he he..

I am not arbitraging the rules here.. I will take any objective violation... then apply this minset

No harm no foul” is a more practical way to sail. Minor contact or a close incident is viewed as ‘no harm’

you mentioned this kind of behavior in the other thread... So.. the least of the situations is not one of bending the rules for advantage.. just doing... the no harm no foul thing. You simply don't call your own foul.

Where does this mindset lead you?.....
to me.... it leads to... "what the hell... Make the measurement guy on the scales call me on my soaking wet spinaker... If he misses it... I save a kilo. if not... i put my dry spin in the sock and then head off to sail measurement.... I have the day allocated for this crap...."

I think I am failing to persuade anyone that the old game was best.... Maybe I have to look at his alternatives...


Are you saying “cheating” is getting worse because of the rules? I don’t agree. Are you saying it’s getting worse because the sailors today are less honorable than they were back in the day? I’m not buying that argument either.
Bottom line cheaters exist and there are mechanisms currently in place to deal with those situations and again it’s up to the sailors to exercise the option.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Tom Korz] #257956
03/01/13 09:18 AM
03/01/13 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Korz
[



We can compete at other sports (I use Hockey as an example) You trip, slash, etc someone you take your penalty, it's over you move on. An infraction on the water should be the same way. To play at a higher level you have to put it out there sometimes, and you just don't always pull it off.

It doesn't make you an A-hole, it make you a competitor. JUST do your turns if you know it was wrong.





Are you suggesting that hockey players check themselves into a penalty box when they make an infraction?




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