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Sail setting and sailing techniques #258903
04/12/13 03:39 AM
04/12/13 03:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
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The Netherlands
Arjan13 Offline OP
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This year we started with a new jib, and a new main on our Inter 18. We also installed a self tacking jib. We've sailed it twice now and our experiences are sometimes good, sometimes bad. We haven't changed anything else on the boat.

We've put an Infusion sail on the Inter which means we had to make an adjustment to the boom. (is done before should work) We connected the main to the boom with a line (3 times double without tightening it to any point of the boom) When starting sailing we very fast learned that this wasn't working, and we had to fix it to the end of the boom so it wouldn't slide towards the mast. After we did that the boat behaved a lot better, but still we're experiencing the following:

When sailing half wind, with a little bit rougher conditions 16-20 knots) it seems we cannot turn the power into speed. We feel there is more power than speed. The boat is "hiccing" a little with the lee bow in the water, and has more intention to dive than it's had ever before. It is less stable than before which causes maybe a little less conident behavior from our side. Even stranger is that it seems that going in 1 direction we have lesser problems, than going 180dgrs in the other direction) We're trying to find out the possible reasons, maybe someone here has the right idea? We are thinking about the following variables:

1) Can anybody give me an indication on the tension of the line which connects the sail to the end of the boom with the Nacra Infusion original system? Is this line only keeping the sail at its place, or is it putting force on it?

2) We sailed the jib about 10 cm from the end of the rail with about as much tension on the sheet as possible. Is this right?

3) The downhaul was on a very reasonable tension

4) Mast rotating system was also on a very reasanable tension

5) Due to this "setting problems" the helmsman stayed on board (not in the wire) causing that I couldn't put to many force on the sheet. The sail was twisting more open as you looked up. Could this be a reason? Can it be that if we go in the wire with two persons and putting more force on the sheet (so the sail will flatten out)that it will be more stable?

6) The new sail has another shape (larger area in the top) Has this got to do anything with it?

We also have some on film. Via this link you can see the boats drive to incline diagonal over the lee bow. (please do not mind the rest of the sailing, a lot of uncertainty is causing bad behaviour)First you see the first direction, afterwards the other direction (with the problems)

http://youtu.be/NP9knLteLkE

Do not mention the outfit (it's still cold in Holland!)

Every help would be appreciated!

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #258904
04/12/13 05:29 AM
04/12/13 05:29 AM
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Petten Netherlands
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northsea junkie Offline
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Good to see you out there in the cold, Arjan.

What I see is that on the problem-direction the mainsail is opening more in the top (so pressing the bow more downwards).
It also looks that in that direction the mast rotation is more then on the other side. (But I don't know if there is a setting-difference on the Inter for both sides.)

Anyway it is a clear and visible problem you have there.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: northsea junkie] #258905
04/12/13 07:42 AM
04/12/13 07:42 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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the video is good. A couple of things:

1) it does not look like you have enough tension on the forestay and the jib luff. Rigging tension looks soft but this could be because you are not sheeting hard enough on the main sail.

2) you are not sheeting hard enough on the main sail - not close...not by a kilometer. I normally control the mainsheet while driving and with a 10:1 sheet purchase in that kind of breeze, I have two wraps on my hand as I bend my legs and I put the finishing touch on the mainsheet tension by extending my legs with everything I have. crank it. The leech of the mainsail should be very tight and you control the twist with the downhaul.

What is happening with the loose mainsheet is that as the boat pumps the rig as you go over waves, different areas of the sail are picking up slight shifts in the wind as the sail "tomahawks". With that much twist, the top of the main usually starts to get more power as the boat slows down into the next wave - this causes the driving force to climb higher up the mast which turns into more pressure on the bows and drives them deeper. The F18 has a lot of sail up high - you need to contain it in breeze and waves.


Jake Kohl
Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #258906
04/12/13 08:03 AM
04/12/13 08:03 AM
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SE MI / NE IN
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I am not the expert, but for those wind conditions, I would consider:

Overall rig tension: Seems like the forestay and jib luff are sagging a bit too much to leeward. My understanding is this tends to create more draft in the jib resulting in lots of drag and heeling moment up front.

Mast rake: try moving the balance of sail power further aft.

Outhaul: Should be pretty tight for those wind conditions. You want the mainsail flatter and more efficient (less drag).

Downhaul/Cunningham: For this wind, should be really tight as well to flatten the top of the main. Loosen if you're not able to fly a hull.


Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #258908
04/12/13 08:52 AM
04/12/13 08:52 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Also...since you are now using a new jib and a new self tacker, make sure there is enough of a slot between the jib leach and mast/backside of the main. If the jib is in tight but the main is out, you will choke off the flow from the jib to the backside of the main.

If the slot is closed off, or too small, this will cause the feeling that you are overpowered, but not going fast, as you described above.

If you are not sheeting the main tight enough, as Jake said, that will close off the jib/main slot as well.

The quick and easy fix is to ease the jib a little, and sheet in the main, that will open the slot. See if that helps with the speed/overpowered feeling.


Blade F16
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Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #258909
04/12/13 08:57 AM
04/12/13 08:57 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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Arjan I concur with Jake and Jeff's suggestions above.

A few things:

Mast rake depends on crew weight. In those conditions if you attach a line to the trap wire, take the wire forward to the bridle attachment point on the hull, mark the line, then take it aft to the rear of the hull you should be about half way down the transom. Further forward if you're two big guys, i.e the upper rudder pintail.

Tension your rig by putting one guy on the trap wire, yanking hard and moving the sidestays. Both stays should be even at the end.

Which boom system are you using? Round or square? On my Infusion the outhaul places the clew of the main about 2" from the stern end of the boom. I basically leave it tight unless in light air. The main sheet connects to a strap that runs through the sail and around the boom. Basically you are putting 10:1 sheet loads directly on the leach of the sail. Like Jake mentioned, sheet in, get both guys on the wire and start trucking.

Let the jib traveler all the way out in heavy air. It's experimental on the crossover for traveling in some.

You probably need more downhaul than you think. Hard to say with a loose mainsheet. Sheet hard, take excess power out with the downhaul then start playing main in the puffs. I let the crew have the main upwind in breeze if they are responsible.

Last edited by samc99us; 04/12/13 08:59 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #258910
04/12/13 09:05 AM
04/12/13 09:05 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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I'll point out again you need to check your side stays are equal. That would explain the more bagged out jib on the opposite tack, i.e you've lost forestay tension because your port side stay is looser than your starboard side stay.

Also, may need more jib downhaul but it's likely forestay sag in the video.


Scorpion F18
Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: samc99us] #258911
04/12/13 10:24 AM
04/12/13 10:24 AM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
Arjan I concur with Jake and Jeff's suggestions above.

A few things:

Mast rake depends on crew weight. In those conditions if you attach a line to the trap wire, take the wire forward to the bridle attachment point on the hull, mark the line, then take it aft to the rear of the hull you should be about half way down the transom. Further forward if you're two big guys, i.e the upper rudder pintail.

Tension your rig by putting one guy on the trap wire, yanking hard and moving the sidestays. Both stays should be even at the end.

Which boom system are you using? Round or square? On my Infusion the outhaul places the clew of the main about 2" from the stern end of the boom. I basically leave it tight unless in light air. The main sheet connects to a strap that runs through the sail and around the boom. Basically you are putting 10:1 sheet loads directly on the leach of the sail. Like Jake mentioned, sheet in, get both guys on the wire and start trucking.

Let the jib traveler all the way out in heavy air. It's experimental on the crossover for traveling in some.

You probably need more downhaul than you think. Hard to say with a loose mainsheet. Sheet hard, take excess power out with the downhaul then start playing main in the puffs. I let the crew have the main upwind in breeze if they are responsible.


I'm pretty sure that's an inter18


Jake Kohl
Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #258914
04/12/13 01:39 PM
04/12/13 01:39 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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An issue may be they are using the main sheet with the fixed points on the inter18 boom. it may be too long/too short to properly apply main sheet tension to the leech of the new F18 sail. The main should be attached to the loop they are using to attach the clew to the boom.


Scorpion F18
Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: samc99us] #258932
04/13/13 01:16 PM
04/13/13 01:16 PM
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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are they beam or broad reaching? with the main that bagged out, you'd think it's about time to hoist the spin?

Rig tension does look a little slack...

Is your traveler centered? Can't tell because the jib is blocking the view. It may help to reduce the draft of the mainsail by sheeting in (a LOT more) and moving the traveler to leeward a bit more.

If you're getting overpowered, you can drop the traveler some as well (when you're beam reaching)


Jay

Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #258936
04/13/13 05:12 PM
04/13/13 05:12 PM

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Scarecrow
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You need to work slowly and sort out one or two things at a time. Start with rig tension. After checking the stays are equal tighten the rig until it becomes hard to rotate (by hand) the mast to 95 degrees

Next is the outhaul on the boom.

Point your mast spanner (rotator) at the side stays and pull your downhaul, traveller and mainsheet on as hard as you can. Now pull the outhaul on as hard as you can. Tie it off there and until your on top of everything else just leave it.

Jib traveller takes a bit of playing. Most people sent it for upwind andleave i there (kite is more important down wind) and on modern courses we don't do much reaching. The basic setting is achieved by cranking main sheet, traveller and jib sheet and the adjusting the jib traveller so that when you pinch up the windward wind indicators on the jib lift just before the ones on the main.

Reaching on and F18 is quite difficult as the boats and sails have evolved away from that point of sail. You need to really drive the boat. If it is being flightly pull the centreboards up a bit. You also need to be be able to properly control the main without moving too much sheet. This is achieved by using the traveller.as a gear stick and the main as an accelerator. When viewed from behind your main sheet should rarely be more than 20 degrees of vertical.


Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: ] #258943
04/13/13 11:25 PM
04/13/13 11:25 PM
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Todd_Sails Offline
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Originally Posted by Scarecrow
You need to work slowly and sort out one or two things at a time. Start with rig tension. After checking the stays are equal tighten the rig until it becomes hard to rotate (by hand) the mast to 95 degrees

Next is the outhaul on the boom.

Point your mast spanner (rotator) at the side stays and pull your downhaul, traveller and mainsheet on as hard as you can. Now pull the outhaul on as hard as you can. Tie it off there and until your on top of everything else just leave it.

Jib traveller takes a bit of playing. Most people sent it for upwind andleave i there (kite is more important down wind) and on modern courses we don't do much reaching. The basic setting is achieved by cranking main sheet, traveller and jib sheet and the adjusting the jib traveller so that when you pinch up the windward wind indicators on the jib lift just before the ones on the main.

Reaching on and F18 is quite difficult as the boats and sails have evolved away from that point of sail. You need to really drive the boat. If it is being flightly pull the centreboards up a bit. You also need to be be able to properly control the main without moving too much sheet. This is achieved by using the traveller.as a gear stick and the main as an accelerator. When viewed from behind your main sheet should rarely be more than 20 degrees of vertical.



Nothing about 'playing' the main downhaul, for the crew, as in the puffs?


F-18 Infusion
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Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #258944
04/14/13 03:21 AM
04/14/13 03:21 AM
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The Netherlands
Arjan13 Offline OP
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Thank you all for your very useful comments! Yesterday we went sailing again, and we've checked the tension in the rig (there is enough tension we believe) we did try to pull the downhaul with tension on the sheet. Indeed this gives a little more (we didn't know to do it this way) This way we flattened the sail out while on shore.

Then we went sailing (but with 14 knts) the boat ran very nice, and no problems at all. So we believe you're right! We need to put more power on the main sheet with more wind. This kind of sail apparenently does not accept to sail it more "relax" (the old Inter sail was more capable of that)

Of course we have to try it with more wind, and when that day comes, I'll come back on it.

Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Todd_Sails] #258946
04/14/13 04:10 AM
04/14/13 04:10 AM

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Originally Posted by Just Todd
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
You need to work slowly and sort out one or two things at a time. Start with rig tension. After checking the stays are equal tighten the rig until it becomes hard to rotate (by hand) the mast to 95 degrees

Next is the outhaul on the boom.

Point your mast spanner (rotator) at the side stays and pull your downhaul, traveller and mainsheet on as hard as you can. Now pull the outhaul on as hard as you can. Tie it off there and until your on top of everything else just leave it.

Jib traveller takes a bit of playing. Most people sent it for upwind andleave i there (kite is more important down wind) and on modern courses we don't do much reaching. The basic setting is achieved by cranking main sheet, traveller and jib sheet and the adjusting the jib traveller so that when you pinch up the windward wind indicators on the jib lift just before the ones on the main.

Reaching on and F18 is quite difficult as the boats and sails have evolved away from that point of sail. You need to really drive the boat. If it is being flightly pull the centreboards up a bit. You also need to be be able to properly control the main without moving too much sheet. This is achieved by using the traveller.as a gear stick and the main as an accelerator. When viewed from behind your main sheet should rarely be more than 20 degrees of vertical.



Nothing about 'playing' the main downhaul, for the crew, as in the puffs?


Worrying about basic setup at this stage, not techniques.

Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #258951
04/14/13 02:39 PM
04/14/13 02:39 PM
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Arjan13 Offline OP
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZQq5ra8uec

This is what we did yesterday, but as you can see with less windy conditions

Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #258955
04/15/13 08:27 AM
04/15/13 08:27 AM
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Todd_Sails Offline
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Nice vid, looking good


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #259000
04/17/13 09:36 AM
04/17/13 09:36 AM
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Sailing is my passion and I love to do it.I am not an expert but highly motivated to get trained and learn all the skills required.Thanks for good stuff specially for me.

Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: anddrevw] #259227
04/28/13 01:33 PM
04/28/13 01:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
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Arjan13 Offline OP
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We tried again with a strong 5 bft last week. It's not yet fantastic, but it looks a lot better thanks to all your tips!

Thanks...

Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #259385
05/07/13 05:27 AM
05/07/13 05:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
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The Netherlands
Arjan13 Offline OP
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Ok, after last saturday we've learned that we're not quite there yet. Still it's a lot better, but in stronger wind (gusts around 20 knots) and only on a reach course (is this good English?)we feel the boat want's to dive in the water with it's bow. When sailing closehauled we have no problem at all, the same with the spinnaker. Only sailing somewhere in the middle we feel this, and only with stronger wind. Could you please comment the following if this is right with about 17 - 20 knots?

- At this course we're standing all the way on the back. The helmsman with one foot on the other site of the beam, standing close together trying to hold the boat in a diagonal way

- The traveler was 1/3 th out

- Downhaul couldn't be any tighter

- Main --> blocks together

- boards half way down

- jib tight and all the way out

Halfway the day we decided to try to set the mast a little more backward. We changed it by 4 holes, but it seemed to help only a little. Next time we want to have a look at the spreaders (we never did after buying the boat) we do not know if there is a lot of change possible.

Or is this boat behavior normal in these conditions?



Re: Sail setting and sailing techniques [Re: Arjan13] #259388
05/07/13 09:27 AM
05/07/13 09:27 AM
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Arjan, though not being the expert on trimming, I remember me a case in which I had a sail which did't fit with the mast.

That looks a bit on your situation. Sailing with two men in 20 kts, should be no problem. Also not in half-wind (the official English is "reaching", but here on this forum they like to speak of jib-reaching or beam-reaching).

It seems to me that your sail cannot loose all the wind in it, which results in an (inefficient) force forwarddown. In fact it's a twist-problem.

So, take your sail one time on the ground with you holding the cunningham hole and your mate holding the top of the sail and stretch out (but not so far that the sail is curling upwards).
Then you take a rope and make a straight line also from the top to the cunningham. You can now see the pre-cutted luffcurve of the sail and also measure how much it is on the deepest point.

If this curve is too deep for your mast, you have a problem.

So, in that case I would certainly give the mast much more pre-bent with the spreaders. (For your cat I don't know the appropriate figures for the pre-bent and the prescribed luff bent in the sail.

Last but not least I would fix the mast-rotator to zero.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 05/07/13 09:31 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
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