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Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #262568
08/18/13 08:30 AM
08/18/13 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.


See I had the opposite opinion.

I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.

On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.

I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: catman] #262569
08/18/13 08:32 AM
08/18/13 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by P.M.
How 'bout a couple of egos going at it.
Love it!



Awesome. Looks like DB doing everything he can to get his boat going while OR calmly sails away.


I had the same thought. "I thought that ETNZ was supposed to be the faster, more stable boat."

They're even to windward and their up and down like a carousel horse.


ETNZ Sockpuppet response: "But but but!! RUDDERS!!!!!"

:rolleyes:

Last edited by Undecided; 08/18/13 08:32 AM.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #262570
08/18/13 09:15 AM
08/18/13 09:15 AM
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South Carolina
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Originally Posted by P.M.
How 'bout a couple of egos going at it.
Love it!


I don't see a speed issue with Oracle in that video. Looks promising.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: ThunderMuffin] #262571
08/18/13 09:21 AM
08/18/13 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.


See I had the opposite opinion.

I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.

On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.

I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.


I don't know...That was a serious auger in. I don't think Oracle would have fared any better in that situation. The bows likely would have gone in deeper. That was pretty messed up. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't wreck worse than they did. It will be interesting to see how much of it they get put back together today.

As a side note; can you IMAGINE the strain put on that rigging to hold up that 13 story wing as the boat went from 40 to 5 in about 1.5 seconds? I think one of the saving graces is that they trim so close when they are going downwind. If the sail had been trimmed more loosely it would have become a barn door when the wind quickly shifted aft and would have increased the pitching moment.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #262572
08/18/13 09:23 AM
08/18/13 09:23 AM
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For anyone else interested in tuning in, NBC Sports channel (relatively new channel) is broadcasting the races. As Todd pointed out, it's under "Yachting" (please raise your pinky finger and take a sip of your tea just prior to enunciating this word with a delightful hint of a British accent...when will they ever learn that they not only need to change the boats, but they need to be careful with what they call this stuff to make it exciting). The replays are usually available on youtube about an hour after the scheduled broadcast.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Jake] #262573
08/18/13 09:35 AM
08/18/13 09:35 AM
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Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.


See I had the opposite opinion.

I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.

On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.

I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.


I don't know...That was a serious auger in. I don't think Oracle would have fared any better in that situation. The bows likely would have gone in deeper. That was pretty messed up. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't wreck worse than they did. It will be interesting to see how much of it they get put back together today.

As a side note; can you IMAGINE the strain put on that rigging to hold up that 13 story wing as the boat went from 40 to 5 in about 1.5 seconds? I think one of the saving graces is that they trim so close when they are going downwind. If the sail had been trimmed more loosely it would have become a barn door when the wind quickly shifted aft and would have increased the pitching moment.


I was watching the broadcast on dvd and after the first race they showed both Oracle boats doing a practice race when the LV race was canceled because too much wind. Looks like ETNZ could have used the bigger rudder elevators that they protested.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: ThunderMuffin] #262574
08/18/13 10:15 AM
08/18/13 10:15 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet.
2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.


I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.

That'd be awesome, but I think you may be over estimating my computer skills. I ended up looking at some new phones last night but don't see anything that makes me want to dump my Droid X yet. God forbid I have to get an I-phone.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Dlennard] #262575
08/18/13 10:18 AM
08/18/13 10:18 AM
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Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Dlennard
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.


See I had the opposite opinion.

I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.

On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.

I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.


I don't know...That was a serious auger in. I don't think Oracle would have fared any better in that situation. The bows likely would have gone in deeper. That was pretty messed up. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't wreck worse than they did. It will be interesting to see how much of it they get put back together today.

As a side note; can you IMAGINE the strain put on that rigging to hold up that 13 story wing as the boat went from 40 to 5 in about 1.5 seconds? I think one of the saving graces is that they trim so close when they are going downwind. If the sail had been trimmed more loosely it would have become a barn door when the wind quickly shifted aft and would have increased the pitching moment.


I was watching the broadcast on dvd and after the first race they showed both Oracle boats doing a practice race when the LV race was canceled because too much wind. Looks like ETNZ could have used the bigger rudder elevators that they protested.


The Oracle practice race was run before the LV finals and broadcast on Youtube live. Pretty smart of them to do that to have filler for postponements and such. First broadcast race and exactly what people complained about, happened. Big delays ,then cancellation.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: ThunderMuffin] #262576
08/18/13 10:37 AM
08/18/13 10:37 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.


See I had the opposite opinion.

I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.

On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.

I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.


I don't think there is enough difference in hull width between oracle and TNZ for that to make much difference. They're different, but both still fairly fine in the scheme of things. Especially compared to a N-20 deck and hull shape. More like the difference between 2 current, different manufacturer, F-18s.
The wing is trimmed by a winch that is controlled hydraulically ,so the control is just like any winch on any boat, sans winch handle. The trimmer, in this case Glenn Ashby, controls the amount and speed of trim or ease with the sheet, instantly,i.e the hydros spin the winch not pull the sheet like an Extreme 40. Wing loads are considerably lower than soft sail loads also, for what it's worth.
The announcer was talking about foil angle to far back. Watch the replay, yes,the top is back but that makes the bottom of the foil(under the boat) forward (it pivots on the bottom of the trunk) which gives positive aoa/lift. Pure power caused that problem, coupled possibly with loss of rudder foil ( negative aoa). Not sure Deano could have done anything with the helm to stop it.Like Ken Read said, "Nature of the beast".


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #262577
08/18/13 10:57 AM
08/18/13 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet.
2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.


I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.

That'd be awesome, but I think you may be over estimating my computer skills. I ended up looking at some new phones last night but don't see anything that makes me want to dump my Droid X yet. God forbid I have to get an I-phone.


Jesus dude that phone is older than you are.

Droid Ultra Maxx would work just fine for you, or the new Moto X if you want to keep a smaller device footprint. Both just came/are coming out soon.

I'd steer away from the Moto X since a lot of its just controlled by talking to it, and I don't think a machine can decipher what it is that comes out of your mouth :P

Last edited by Undecided; 08/18/13 10:57 AM.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: ThunderMuffin] #262578
08/18/13 11:37 AM
08/18/13 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet.
2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.



I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.

That'd be awesome, but I think you may be over estimating my computer skills. I ended up looking at some new phones last night but don't see anything that makes me want to dump my Droid X yet. God forbid I have to get an I-phone.


Jesus dude that phone is older than you are.

Droid Ultra Maxx would work just fine for you, or the new Moto X if you want to keep a smaller device footprint. Both just came/are coming out soon.

I'd steer away from the Moto X since a lot of its just controlled by talking to it, and I don't think a machine can decipher what it is that comes out of your mouth :P


You know me, I hate change.
I was hoping to get away from Motorola phones because of their penchant for keeping them locked after they stop supporting the platform ( sounds familiar maybe even N-20esque) but if that's what there is then so be it. Appreciate the advice. I've only been due for an upgrade (2 yr contract up) for about 6 months. I actually want the GzOne commando ,but apparently it's got battery and glitch issues.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #262579
08/18/13 11:48 AM
08/18/13 11:48 AM
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Greenville SC
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
God forbid I have to get an I-phone.


I thought that until I threw in the towel on the droids and got the iPhone. It works SO much better, never crashes, never have to pull the battery, battery lasts longer, screen works better. My 4s was superior to my droid x2 in almost everyway.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #262581
08/18/13 12:37 PM
08/18/13 12:37 PM
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On the Water
P.M. Offline OP
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Back on topic.
Defender practice live in 20 minutes, here's the link.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #262582
08/18/13 12:40 PM
08/18/13 12:40 PM
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P.M. Offline OP
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Here is the video interview with JS. Same interview as the audio podcast I linked yesterday.
Spithill video interview


Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Tony_F18] #262583
08/18/13 12:45 PM
08/18/13 12:45 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
How Aussies saw the incident :


Look right over the letters nd in New Zealand, and at the E in Nespresso, as they come up from the stuff, did you see the water pouring out of the two slots on the side of the hull? Where is that water coming from? Do they have a slot all the way through the hull, to drain water off the fishnet tramp? I wouldn't think there would be that much water pooling on the tramp, it's fish net, right? It must be water coming back from that solid part (that pealed back) at the front beam?


Blade F16
#777
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #262584
08/18/13 12:46 PM
08/18/13 12:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
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P.M. Offline OP
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Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #262585
08/18/13 12:47 PM
08/18/13 12:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
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On the Water
P.M. Offline OP
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Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Timbo] #262586
08/18/13 12:57 PM
08/18/13 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
How Aussies saw the incident :


Look right over the letters nd in New Zealand, and at the E in Nespresso, as they come up from the stuff, did you see the water pouring out of the two slots on the side of the hull? Where is that water coming from? Do they have a slot all the way through the hull, to drain water off the fishnet tramp? I wouldn't think there would be that much water pooling on the tramp, it's fish net, right? It must be water coming back from that solid part (that pealed back) at the front beam?

Tim,
Watch the helicopter close ups in today's race, or go back and watch some replays. They essentially are grinding in a recessed tub. Those ports,drains are to allow the water to drain out. They are constantly getting bathed by a water shower.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #262587
08/18/13 01:01 PM
08/18/13 01:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
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On the Water
P.M. Offline OP
Pooh-Bah
P.M.  Offline OP
Pooh-Bah

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On the Water
We are live for Oracle practice race


Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #262588
08/18/13 01:09 PM
08/18/13 01:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline OP
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On the Water


Philip
USA #1006
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