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#265714 - 10/06/13 07:03 PM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: pgp]  
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
Bille Offline
member
Bille  Offline
member

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
Originally Posted by pgp
You should start a kite boarding forum, or at least a thread.

I would've bought a kite long ago but I don't have the balls.


Kite boarding isn't Nearly as Dumb as when i do This :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3W4zyk1TYg

And i still do it a LOT.
Did i tell you How i lost both legs below the knee ?
Crash... gravity is Harsh !!!

Bille

-- Have You Seen This? --
#265716 - 10/06/13 07:20 PM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: Bille]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
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Now I remember why I don't kite, any kind of kite.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#265723 - 10/06/13 10:28 PM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: Mark Schneider]  
Joined: Apr 2002
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Dlennard Offline
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Dlennard  Offline
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Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Dave, Just to make Pete's point in another way.... Your states insurance commissioners allowed your old plan to exist. It worked for you because you did not find the holes in that policy and you liked the price. Your state's insurance commissioner would deal with the individual complaints for people who fell through that policy. The people could complain and get screwed by their insurance company but that was it. (part of the reason that insurance reform was the issue in the 08 election)

The ACA set a national standard for just what a policy had to cover. So your current policy had to change and come up to the national standard.... Your insurance commissioner must enforce the new law. So, like all insurance, if you don't use some of it... you think you are overpaying... eg materinity care... I doubt you have much need for that but it's nominally included because the law demands non discrimination against women .... Now your insurance company knows you won't need maternity care for you and the family at 50 plus... but they can blame the cost increase on this and gouge you another way.

The solution is to actually have more insurance companies in your state... In some states, one company owns 90% of the market.... it is impossible for another company to come in... find docs and hospitals and start competing. Right now,.... you have your old company.. with their individual plans... and the ACA spec policies offered by your old company but meeting the national standard. ... that is NOT competition that works for you.

In either case, what you are buying is from a private company. There is nothing free market about health insurance tho.... it is just Private and the ACA added some government regulations... eg spend 80% premium on medical payouts or send a rebate... Stock holders of the insurance companies benift because they get more customers with the ACA.

You are not getting goverment health care now... Medicare is public government run health insurance... as is Tricare for the military... as is Medicaid for poor people.. You are not using any of these public systems.



Thanks Mark for explaining the way the new plan is working. I did not like the price of my old plan and it was just high deductible catastrophic insurance, but they did drop the deductible to 5,500 from 10,000 which I have no choice. I have only met my deductible once in34 years so I would rather have a high deductible and put the money I save in a HSA account to pay if I need to go to the doctor. Now I have to pay 5,500 extra each year so no extra to pay for the doctor should I need to go. I do realize that cost were going to go up some because of the new laws in health care just not over double what I was paying. Your explanation of the way the new market place works is not very promising to me to get much better rates since most insurance companies prices don't seem to be that different and I guess the highest deductible is 5,500 bronze plan.

#265725 - 10/06/13 10:53 PM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: Bille]  
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Dlennard Offline
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Dlennard  Offline
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Wilmington,NC
Sorry to have side tracked the post a little. Air force 2 was doing practice landings last week so I guess it has not closed. It flies around a few times a month doing practice landings. I wounded how much that cost. Is the White house on federal land? I think it should close.

#265727 - 10/06/13 11:56 PM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: Dlennard]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Posts: 3,095
Annapolis, MD
Quote
Your explanation of the way the new market place works is not very promising to me to get much better rates since most insurance companies prices don't seem to be that different and I guess the highest deductible is 5,500 bronze plan.


There is a reason for this.... the ACA capped your out of pocket medical expenses for a year at I think around 7 or 8 K.... So the 10 K deductable is not relevant post ACA.

Now, if you don't get really sick or injured you won't come close to the cap... The key difference is that you are buying more insurance and have less cash for general medical service. YMMV and will depend on your circumstances in the future (get sick or injured or not).

Again, If you had more insurance companies doing business in your state... You would have more choice in what your current insurer reformulated to meet the new regulations. This of course is a chicken and egg problem... Had we had more choice in the private markets...and structures to make delivery more efficient and the right amount of health care delivered at the right time we would not have needed the ACA. Health care is not like any other market.


crac.sailregattas.com
#265728 - 10/07/13 01:11 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: Bille]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Just as a very bemused foreigner looking in - can somebody explain to me the negatives of "Obamacare"???

Over here we have had a government health insurance scheme for decades and although it's not perfect I'd prefer to get sick here than most other places in the world. From the very little I know, 'Obamacare' seems to be a similar system and many on this side of the pond are totally amazed at the levels of opposition to it.

Last edited by TigerMike; 10/07/13 01:11 AM.
#265733 - 10/07/13 05:10 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: Bille]  
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Posts: 3,654
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
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Portland, Maine
Pete,

I buy my plan through my employer who has worldwide offices and who has 5000 employees. We're based in NC and we're insured through our company'd HQ there. Florida has *nothing* to do with my healthcare. Everyone in NA is paying the same thing.

Quote
But, welcome to my world. For several years I had to buy my inusrance on the open market, it wasn't available through work. I was okay with a high deductible low premium until BCBS stopped offering that plan. It worked out though, soon after I was diagnosed with diabetes so no one would insure me at any price.


I'd had type 1 since I was 4. After I graduated from college and after I lost my student healthcare insurance plan (which was $40/month) I had to go on COBRA which was $500 a month which, from what I'm reading, is an absolute steal compared to the prices that people have been getting.

As for the schadenfreude that you seem to be enjoying watching your fellow countrymen suffer with the ills you've experienced in the past....

The day of reckoning will come - and it will NOT be pleasant for your side of the aisle.

Now if you excuse me, I have an internet to go make fun of for calling this a "shutdown" with 83% of the government is still running. LOL - what a "shutdown".

#265734 - 10/07/13 05:21 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: Bille]  
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Posts: 3,654
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
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Portland, Maine
Quote
Again, If you had more insurance companies doing business in your state... You would have more choice in what your current insurer reformulated to meet the new regulations. This of course is a chicken and egg problem... Had we had more choice in the private markets...and structures to make delivery more efficient and the right amount of health care delivered at the right time we would not have needed the ACA. Health care is not like any other market.


It's currently unlike any other market... in fact we wouldn't be in this mess at all if it weren't for originaly government maniplation of free market mechanisms.

During mandatory wage freezes (instituted by the government) the free market had to come up with a way to attract and retain top talent in the labor market. They couldn't pay them more, but they could offer them "benefits" which included health insurance.

Thus began the pivotal de-linkage of the customer paying for services rendered. A third party bore the costs and therefore the supplier of these costs had no reason to be price competitive. When a patient can go up to the "health care buffett" and order the filet without having to actually PAY for it, its no wonder that nobody was eating the hamburger.

Thus the healthcare industry lost every incentive to contain costs, keep research at a sane level (Seriously, I charge clients $450/hr to work on their clinical trials) and the patient doesn't care because for the most part, they're not paying for it.

But it doesn't have to be like this. Going to the hospital should be like going to Jiffy Lube. Your kidneys need an oil change (dialysis)? That will be $75. Clearly displayed on a menu board above the nurses' station (and on the hospital's website)

There's a great piece at reason.com about the possibilities of a free market type health care system where you can walk into an office and prices are clearly displayed on a menu board. You know exactly what you're getting and what its going to cost - and since the particular example they showed didn't bother with the administrative overhead of insurance or medicare, the costs were 1/5th that of the hospitals.


Last edited by Undecided; 10/07/13 05:29 AM.
#265735 - 10/07/13 05:40 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: Mark Schneider]  
Joined: Apr 2002
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Dlennard Offline
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Dlennard  Offline
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Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Your explanation of the way the new market place works is not very promising to me to get much better rates since most insurance companies prices don't seem to be that different and I guess the highest deductible is 5,500 bronze plan.


There is a reason for this.... the ACA capped your out of pocket medical expenses for a year at I think around 7 or 8 K.... So the 10 K deductable is not relevant post ACA.

Now, if you don't get really sick or injured you won't come close to the cap... The key difference is that you are buying more insurance and have less cash for general medical service. YMMV and will depend on your circumstances in the future (get sick or injured or not).

Again, If you had more insurance companies doing business in your state... You would have more choice in what your current insurer reformulated to meet the new regulations. This of course is a chicken and egg problem... Had we had more choice in the private markets...and structures to make delivery more efficient and the right amount of health care delivered at the right time we would not have needed the ACA. Health care is not like any other market.


All true Mark except I am not buying more insurance I am just paying more than double what I was. Both plans pay 0 until the deductible have been met. Yes the new deductible is lower so the out of pocket is lower, but at double the cost. There should be a plan for people that just want insurance to cover a life changing issue. How can it be called the Affordable Care Act when it is costing me more than double what I was paying?

#265737 - 10/07/13 06:34 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: ThunderMuffin]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
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Posts: 5,525
Originally Posted by Undecided
Pete,

I buy my plan through my employer who has worldwide offices and who has 5000 employees. We're based in NC and we're insured through our company'd HQ there. Florida has *nothing* to do with my healthcare. Everyone in NA is paying the same thing.

Quote
But, welcome to my world. For several years I had to buy my inusrance on the open market, it wasn't available through work. I was okay with a high deductible low premium until BCBS stopped offering that plan. It worked out though, soon after I was diagnosed with diabetes so no one would insure me at any price.


I'd had type 1 since I was 4. After I graduated from college and after I lost my student healthcare insurance plan (which was $40/month) I had to go on COBRA which was $500 a month which, from what I'm reading, is an absolute steal compared to the prices that people have been getting.

As for the schadenfreude that you seem to be enjoying watching your fellow countrymen suffer with the ills you've experienced in the past....

The day of reckoning will come - and it will NOT be pleasant for your side of the aisle.

Now if you excuse me, I have an internet to go make fun of for calling this a "shutdown" with 83% of the government is still running. LOL - what a "shutdown".


Are you and Todd brothers? It sounds like it.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#265744 - 10/07/13 07:48 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: ThunderMuffin]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 865
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 865
Solomon's Island, MD
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by catman

No, We are Stupid. It represents us.....right?


I don't think you can claim that it represents us anymore. In any case, I don't see the shutdown as a bad thing. For 95% of the population, nobody is going to notice a damn thing. Maybe it will get people to realize just how bloated and inefficent the whole boondoggle is.

Here's something ripe. Want to go fishing during the shutdown? Sorry - the feds have close the Florida Bay. Yes. All of it.



Give me a ****ing break - the gal of the feds to think that they're so ****ing important to society that they have to close the Bay down to commercial traffic lest all hell break loose.... in reality thats not it... this is just more of the same "make it artificially hurt so that people put pressure on the opposition to cave on their constituents."

Quote
Charter guides received a message from the National Park Service this week informing them that they are not permitted to take clients fishing in Florida Bay until the feds get back to work. That means that more than 1,100 square miles of prime fishing is off limits between the southern tip of the mainland to the Keys until further notice.

The closing affects not only fishing guides, but anyone with a license to conduct business in the park, including tour operators and paddling guides anyone with a Commercial Use Authorization permit, said Dan Kimball, superintendent of Everglades and Dry Tortugas national parks.

Biscayne National Park is also off limits. Enforcement rangers will be on duty, Kimball said.


Regardless, this shutdown is costing hundreds of millions of dollars. On Sunday congress said passed a measure that would pay for govm't employees on furlough, i.e they are getting paid despite the fact that they aren't working. So at the end of the day, the taxpayer is getting fucked, and non-government employees like myself that rely on govm't contracts are about to get hit hard. Let's see how Wall Street takes it when 300,000 Lockheed Martin, 200,000 Boeing, 100,000 L3 etc. employees can't go to work because their contract checks aren't being written.

They are your representatives, WE voted them into power. ~95% of American's think they're congressman/woman are doing a great job for them, and it's the other representatives that are to blame. FAIL. Every single Representative and Senator should:

A) Immediately loose their paycheck upon failing to pass an actual budget (which hasn't been done for some # of decades, and is the primary reason congress exists).

B) If the budget isn't passed within the next session, every member of that congress is no longer eligible to run in the following election.

The cycle needs to be broken. Also, strict budgets on campaign spending need to be set and enforced. All additional money in the form of lobbying etc. needs to be outright banned from politics. Wake up and smell the roses people, it's major corporations that make the decisions in this country, not us.

O'Care did absolutely nothing to reduce the average per person cost of health care. All they did was steal more money from the middle class and use it to pay for the uneducated, poor man's health care, leaving us with less money to fund our children's rising education costs. Hence, the gap between the poor and the wealthy continues to spread. Please see Greece. Or add to that the fall of the Roman empire, we are repeating history in so many ways on that one.

These fuckers need to drop the healthcare issue, get the government started, then ****ing sort out O'Care. They need to force cost reduction measures in healthcare. Reducing the salary of nurses and doctors isn't how it's going to happen. It's getting the insurance companies to take a 10% cut in profits that is required. Doctors are getting fucked by them (mine left and went to Africa 3 years ago because the insurance was getting outrageous), we're paying out the butt for it, and who's getting rich?? Hit the drug companies hard too, those fuckers are raking in BILLIONS at our expense.

Plan B: kiss it all and move to the islands.


Last edited by samc99us; 10/07/13 07:49 AM.

F18 Infusion
#265745 - 10/07/13 08:09 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: Bille]  
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pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
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Posts: 5,525
Pick up the phone, call your State rep and tell him you're not buying this nonsense that Obama is the bad guy (maybe he is but this insurance fiasco was engineered by the insurance lobby and state legislatures)and you intended to put someone else in his chair, leave your name and contact information, then just hang up. No discussion.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#265746 - 10/07/13 08:23 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: Mark Schneider]  
Joined: Dec 2001
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waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

Again, If you had more insurance companies doing business in your state... You would have more choice in what your current insurer reformulated to meet the new regulations.


Yeah, that's been an issue in FL for decades. We have somewhat of a "unique" population which drives a pretty high loss ratio. That, and we're just one big happy boat of attorneys ( I think someone said FL is second only to CA in terms of litigation).

IIRC, there are three "players" (BCBS, United, Aetna) and two are much more expensive than the third. So really there is only one player.

I also suspect that this first period of enrollment will be "adverse selection" as the only people really paying attention to the ACA were those with healthcare needs. The young, healthy folk are tweeting about Justin Beiber and could care less about the old and infirm.

Since the employer mandate and individual fines are reduced or eliminated this go around, we'll probably see this ACA thing get off to a sputtering start which will add fodder to the political rantings on the radio. Again, show a better plan and let's talk. I think everyone agreed in principle that the status quo needed work.

Since we can't repeal or unfund the law without disaster/political brinksmanship at this point, I hope the program does indeed prove useful until we can find something better. And "Better" isn't just vetoing what we have. Please, smart people, put something together to present rather than just saying "that idea sucks".

I like as little government as possible, but I'm not one to cheer the failure of gov't just to make a point.

I feel for Carl; my annual plan costs about as much as his. I'm hoping that next year's renewal (ours was Sept) will see a little improvement in price as I'm banned from the exchange because my employer's plan "complies". It's high-deductible FSA thing, too.

Part of the reason for this plan's increase was the requirement to add maternity benefits to any female "of child bearing age". Really? Is 50 now considered "child bearing age"? And they cover fertility treatments as well... So now 50+ females who had their tubes tied in the 90's can be mommies. Do they realize they'll be 70 when that child gets to college (and needs money)?

Please tell every healthy young person you can find to sign up and pay their share or else this thing is sunk... In the meantime no one get sick or go kitesailing, skateboarding, etc. smile

Yay! Another Drill thread! Yippeee!



Jay

#265747 - 10/07/13 08:27 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,573
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,573
Naples, FL
oh, and if Key Biscayne and Florida Bay are closed, can i go in there and grab every last lobster,crab and snook I can find?

Maybe I can get some logging done in Yellowstone, too.. smile

There was a radio story about a dude who waited 18 years for a permit to travel down the Columbia river in Grand Canyon. He showed up at the entrance and it was locked. He had $30,000 USD into the trip already and were stuck camping in the parking lot. I feel for that dude... But maybe the moral of the story is don't count on the gov't for your holiday?

Now, is there a silver lining to this shutdown? Are we saving any money by not paying wages this week?


Jay

#265748 - 10/07/13 08:28 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: Bille]  
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pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
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Posts: 5,525
Some of you may not know that the Federal government is the ONLY flood insurer. Any insurance agency can write a flood policy and they are glad to do so because it generates a small profit for the agency and company and the company assumes no liability.

This, imo, is a better plan for health insurance than the one we now have.

Last edited by pgp; 10/07/13 08:29 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#265749 - 10/07/13 08:35 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: pgp]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,573
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,573
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by pgp
Some of you may not know that the Federal government is the ONLY flood insurer. Any insurance agency can write a flood policy and they are glad to do so because it generates a small profit for the agency and company and the company assumes no liability.

This, imo, is a better plan for health insurance than the one we now have.


Actually, Pete, there are carriers that write flood outside NFIP. Few... and for unique risks and XS flood limits, but they are there.

More private companies would write flood if NFIP wasn't subsidizing so much premium and making it unprofitable at the current rates (hence the BW12 "fix").

Florida cedes $4 in premium for every $1 it receives in claim payment. Let that settle in for a bit...


Jay

#265750 - 10/07/13 08:38 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: pgp]  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,221
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,221
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by Undecided
Pete,

I buy my plan through my employer who has worldwide offices and who has 5000 employees. We're based in NC and we're insured through our company'd HQ there. Florida has *nothing* to do with my healthcare. Everyone in NA is paying the same thing.

Quote
But, welcome to my world. For several years I had to buy my inusrance on the open market, it wasn't available through work. I was okay with a high deductible low premium until BCBS stopped offering that plan. It worked out though, soon after I was diagnosed with diabetes so no one would insure me at any price.


I'd had type 1 since I was 4. After I graduated from college and after I lost my student healthcare insurance plan (which was $40/month) I had to go on COBRA which was $500 a month which, from what I'm reading, is an absolute steal compared to the prices that people have been getting.

As for the schadenfreude that you seem to be enjoying watching your fellow countrymen suffer with the ills you've experienced in the past....

The day of reckoning will come - and it will NOT be pleasant for your side of the aisle.

Now if you excuse me, I have an internet to go make fun of for calling this a "shutdown" with 83% of the government is still running. LOL - what a "shutdown".


Are you and Todd brothers? It sounds like it.


Brothers of common sense. You should try it sometime.
Apply the "business strategy" of the ACA to any other business and look how flawed it is. You and Mark both are so infatuated with Obama, the logic of what he does doesn't matter to you. A greater percentage of Americans (because Pete, this is an American problem) polled in numerous polls are against the ACA.

Quote
As for the schadenfreude that you seem to be enjoying watching your fellow countrymen suffer with the ills you've experienced in the past....

The day of reckoning will come - and it will NOT be pleasant for your side of the aisle.


Amen!


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
#265752 - 10/07/13 09:00 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by pgp
Some of you may not know that the Federal government is the ONLY flood insurer. Any insurance agency can write a flood policy and they are glad to do so because it generates a small profit for the agency and company and the company assumes no liability.

This, imo, is a better plan for health insurance than the one we now have.


Actually, Pete, there are carriers that write flood outside NFIP. Few... and for unique risks and XS flood limits, but they are there.

More private companies would write flood if NFIP wasn't subsidizing so much premium and making it unprofitable at the current rates (hence the BW12 "fix").

Florida cedes $4 in premium for every $1 it receives in claim payment. Let that settle in for a bit...


Can you 'splain that to me please? I thought the history of flood loss was so huge the privates didn't want in.

My spidey sense tells me NFIP is a little like Glass-Steagall; revoke it and the market will explode and crash.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#265758 - 10/07/13 10:18 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: pgp]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Annapolis, MD
I thought most private companies pulled out of florida following one of the big ones... The state of Fla had to step in and self insure. The politics of it were the feds were not going to increase their subsidies and the price was skyrocketing. (just another example of a free market failure)


crac.sailregattas.com
#265759 - 10/07/13 10:26 AM Re: Explain exactly Why I "Can't" go sailing once again ? [Re: pgp]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
Carl Offline
journeyman
Carl  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
Enjoyed reading all the opinions and info --correction for Jay --it was David's example rather than mine .

Just read and saw on the news today that the president still refuses to negociate or talk directly with congress --our elected representatives ! I guess what they say is true --"the president is an extremist ideologue" . Problem is the damage that involves for so many of us not represented or interests addressed nor counted or cared for in his politically driven ideologue's adgenda .

Why can't the president meet and help find some common ground and solutions to the obvious ongoing problems with O CARE ? Why doesn't he seem to care about the concerns and real problems with it that are ongoing for so many millions of us ?

This episode in history illustrates once again how divisive and disfuctional our political class has become and how unequal,broken, and unfair the current system has become as result of being so divided as a people and nation.

Deflecting to blame insurance cos --well --its not the real problem --most understand this.

Our 2 party basic political system that served us so well in past U.S. history now is failing us due to all the usual failures as through all of human history --Sam noted the Roman empire and its collapse in example --base causes are much the same currently --human behavior has not really changed that much . Political power -information manipulation -political propaganda -extremist ideological adgendas ,money power ,greed -etc are the sources of human misery through history and among the tools used to pit one group of people against the other .

We need a new perspective or renewed higher understanding of the inequities and failure of our current system. We need to reject the red vs blue mentality that prevails in media and our inept political class.

Like it or not the nations 16 -17 trillion debt and trillion dollar budgets with near billion dollar political campaigns {per Obama and others }with resulting bad laws and poorly thought out often divisive legislation determine our existances and our well being. O CARE now largely controlling health care as million more of us are dumped into an already indept overloaded bankrupt system .

All we can realistically do is understand that the political system as it exists currently promotes one group of people and their interests at the expence of others represented by the other party and vice versa . This has been taken to such an extreme that it no longer really serves us longterm though does befit those in power and their political support money power groups shorterm .

Again Daves example of how the working person in the private sector is being beaten down -taxed fined feed and systematically eliminated as millions of small biz people have been in the last decade in record numbers illustrates that point . No one can afford that type of increase in costs

Contast Daves common working mans situation with those supporting the political party in power ---the power money political groups used as tools to divide us ---inc politicians themselves recieving cadillac type health care plans inc free viagra --

Perhaps a more centrist group of us will emerge neither red or blue but cognizant of how unequal the system is and dedicated to fixing the system and insuring ALL -as in "we the people" --are represented . If we are to be part of a collectivist ideology base system lets work to make it a free will rather than forced system . Lets work to correct the inequities and what is already shaping into a 2 tier system of health care --the upper tier for those in political power and their support money power groups with Cadillac type health care plans ----lesser care for the rest of us . --

Our future is still ours to shape --please remind those in power and their supporters of how unequal the system is and how it is failing millions --it only gets worse if we don't get involved .

Last edited by Carl; 10/07/13 10:48 AM.
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