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#26673 - 12/04/03 11:47 AM Masters of Speed  
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Jake Offline
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The ground under the world sailing speed record is shaking! This record, currently held by the proa Yellow Pages Endeavor set in 1993, has been nearly surpassed by a windsurfer! I've been watching this group of windsurfers with amazement during the last year - they keep getting faster and faster.

The record held by Yellow Pages is a 46.52 knot average over a course of 500 meters (547 yards / 1640 ft). Mr Finian Maynard blazed a trail on a narrow canal in southern France averageing 46.24 knots during an event held there this week. He fell short of the world record by an astounding 0.28 knots - which breaks down to something like a 0.12 second difference by my calculation! These guys are using very custom boards, sails, and masts and are wearing heavy weight jackets to help them counteract the sail force on these boards - but I'll promise you their setups cost a lot less than Yellow Pages Endeavor. From the footage I've seen it appears to be extremely physical too. Check it out!

http://www.mastersofspeed.com

Last edited by Jake; 12/04/03 01:35 PM.

Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
#26674 - 12/04/03 02:43 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Jake]  
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Colin Offline
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I saw that! 53.6 mph!

The sails are only a slightly different than the ones we can buy. A few pictures ("joining 45 knot club") look like they are using stock Naish sails. Maybe a little more than usual pretwist?

The booms are very different. They have a compression member and half wishbone on the windward side and nothing to leeward. I suspect their fins may be asymmetrical as well.

Earlier this year there was a record attempt at Fuertaventura. I think they Bjorn Dunkerbeck hit 44 knots on the ocean using slightly less exotic gear.

Check Video 3 here. The water looks hard.
http://www.hgs.at/wss/news/details.aspx?id=17#

I hope they post some video on masters of speed too.

-colin


#26675 - 12/04/03 03:20 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Jake]  
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davidn Offline
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chesapeake bay
I wonder what a beach cat could do on this same course, optimised for that speed reach? Beam winds and flat water make for some special moments on a beach cat. How about a Marstrom 20 with slimmed down foils, a high speed-reaching spinnaker and set up for three person trapezing?

#26676 - 12/04/03 03:33 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: davidn]  
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Jake Offline
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I don't know that any of our current beachcats have the capability of getting anywhere near there because you must be on plane to achieve anything near these speeds. I don't think even our foil technology can sustain these speeds yet without cavitating (?). I have wondered what might happen if they have a small arm mounted foil or ski attached to the windsurfer masts to help counter the heeling moment. It could help them reduce the weight in the weight vest and carry more sail area (and would look strangely like a proa).

It almost feels like cheating to be sailing for the speed record in a narrow man-made canal because it eliminates dealing wth any sizeable (realistic) chop. Then again, it is a waterborn wind-powered craft going terribly fast...and that's cool.


Jake Kohl
#26677 - 12/04/03 05:17 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Jake]  
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Krisu13 Offline
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So what is the top speed for beach cat? and which one holds the record?



I20
#26678 - 12/04/03 06:01 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Krisu13]  
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Damon Linkous Offline
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Memphis, Tennessee
500 meter records are a lot harder to reach, conditions have to be perfect. The boards rely on gale force winds, Yellow Pages went something like 3 times the wind speed.

Current records for 500 meters.
http://www.speedsailing.com/Background_records.htm


#26679 - 12/04/03 09:13 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Damon Linkous]  
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Jake Offline
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Don't confuse what they call an "A Class" with what we commonly call A class...here's 'Longshot' - the current A Class speed record holder (43.55knots) and the first sailboat to best 40 knots. It is also reportedly the predecesor to the Hobie tri-foiler. It makes you wonder how far away 50 knots is. We need some development!

[Linked Image]


Jake Kohl
#26680 - 12/08/03 05:45 AM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: davidn]  
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Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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I reckon HALF the record speed on a standard beach cat over 500m would be optimistic. Boards are designed to be "almost perfect" speed machines. The stronger the wind blows, the more the sailor pulls the rig down onto himself, creating lift on the board. Biggest problem these guys have is trying to keep the whole thing on the water at these speeds. Cats have the opposite problem : the stronger it blows, the more the leeward hull is depressed into the water, creating more drag. 3 big fat guys on the wire will only increase the downward force on the leeward hull.
Anyone who says he averaged "30 knots" on a cat over a 500m course was either on Playstation, on Hydrofoils, or on drugs.
Me, I heard the news, and rushed out to buy some windsurfing kit. After a 13 year lay-off from boardsailing, it was a blast. You CAN have the best of both worlds !
By the way, check out Dave White (son of Reg, Tornado Olympic sailor) - Fastest production board sailor on a F2 Sputnik. Go buy one, and go fast !

Steve

#26681 - 12/08/03 08:58 AM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver]  
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Jake Offline
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maybe then we need a canting rig and flatter hull bottoms?


Jake Kohl
#26682 - 12/08/03 09:17 AM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Jake]  
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Mary Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Flatter, planing-type hulls were tried in the Richard Roque designs. I never can remember the name of the boat that was supposed to become a production class. There were one or two of them at Sailfest in Sanford, Florida one year. I think 16-foot. And he also designed one for Randy Smyth one year for the Worrell (or World?) 1000. I can't remember right now and don't have time to look back through my files. But maybe somebody on this forum will remember those boats and why they did not achieve the promised performance. I know they seemed to work well in some conditions but poorly in others.

Also, I wonder what happened to Roque. We haven't heard from him in years. Anybody know?

#26683 - 12/08/03 11:43 AM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Mary]  
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Wouter Offline
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I know that a co-production, rip-off, copy or similar development was the Hurricane 500 (16 foot) maybe this was the name you were looking for. I thank there was also a Hurricane 600 or something the big brother.

We haven't heard much since these boat from than onwards

Although I do know one design who was quite pleased with the performance of such a planing hull and incorporate several idea's of it in a new 16 footer which is available and growing in numbers at this time.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#26684 - 12/08/03 12:38 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Wouter]  
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Mary Offline
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Nope, that's not it.

#26685 - 12/08/03 12:58 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Mary]  
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BillRoberts Offline
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Hi Mary,
The Roque boat that Randy sailed in the Worrell was bought by a sailor who lived on Key Biscayne. Miami YC Tornado and P19 sailors have told me that they saw the boat out on the bay occasionally a few years ago. These sailors would drag race the Roque boat and had no trouble pulling away from it. Evidently the owner was learning to sail. The boat has not been seen for a couple of years now.
Bill

#26686 - 12/08/03 01:17 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Jake]  
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Hi Jake,
Sailboards went from a speed of 28 knots to 40+ knots when the sailing course moved from a real body of water to the swimming pool in France. Now, you tell me what is responsible for the largest improvement in sailboard speed.
The next step is to build some sailing models and test them in a wind tunnel and then scale these model speeds up to full size and claim a world record.
Sailboards and foil boats sometimes sail in the distance races that I sail in and they always finish hours behind. Real world water slows these boats down very much. They can fly on the swimming pool but on Biscayne Bay they don't go so fast.
Good Sailing,
Bill

#26687 - 12/08/03 02:56 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: BillRoberts]  
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Jake Offline
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Agreed...hence a flat bottom planing catamaran would probably only be practical to use in the manmade ditch in France.


Jake Kohl
#26688 - 12/08/03 07:03 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: BillRoberts]  
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With all due respect Bill…while I agree with you that sailing in a ditch has brought the numbers up to where they now are…it is still easily with in reach of an accomplished windsurfer to hit 35-40 mph with high quality stock “off the shelf windsurfing gear”. As far as real world water goes, cooking along at 35-40 mph in 3 foot chop on a 7’-10” X 20” (bump and jump type board/sail, not race board/sail) basically in the air more than in the water is pretty common sight. Ask Keith Notary…he was building some of the best boards for those conditions.

I use to do it all the time (still can). Sustained winds of 30 mph +. Come up to Herman’s bay just South of the St. Lucie Nuclear power plant on those strong west winds from the cold fronts, and you will see sailors all over the place going 35+ in wicked chop. On rare occasion conditions get to the point where a 2.5 sq/mt. sail was too big to hold on to. That is a small sail…you need 20 mph wind just to keep the board from sinking under your feet…forget about planning till nearly 30 mph wind speed. . Even on modern wave gear (which is designed around maneuverability rather than all out speed) we are probably getting in the low to mid thirties on the ocean…how else do you think we get 20’+ plus in the air launching off a five foot wave face?

In the early 90’s windsurfing was making some quantum leaps in performance…the board plan shapes and rocker lines were obsessed over with countless prototypes, hand ground fins with exhaustive foil research, new stiffer carbon booms that helped retain the sail shape from changing (kept out haul constant), new carbon fiber masts which zeroed out quicker to keep the sail designers shape over a wider wind range…steps toward using mono film and scrim/Mylar sail material that held its shape better. Ever ounce of board weight, mast weight, boom weight, sail weight, even the mast extensions, mast foot and foot straps were paired down to minimum. The interaction between components was finally beginning to make sense. Rigs became more and more controllable; the back winded face plants became rarer and rarer.

The speeds achieved by modern sailboards is due to a host of factors well beyond the sailing of a few in a ditch in France…

Bob


#26689 - 12/08/03 09:03 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Seeker]  
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CharlesLeblanc Offline
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Québec, Canada
Quote
...

The speeds achieved by modern sailboards is due to a host of factors well beyond the sailing of a few in a ditch in France…

Bob



I agree, many of the speeds over 37 knots were set outsite the ditch.

The 38.86 Pascal Maka record was set at Canaries Island and many speeds over 40 knots were set in the ovean with very strong offshore winds (Bjorn Dunkerberk., Olivier Auger)

Also, I remember in 1990 that there was a race between a windsurfer Pascal Maka recordholter at that time and the 60' racing trimaran "Haute Normandie" over a nautical mille course (approx. 1850 meter). The windsurfer had the advantage on a downwind reach, the Trimaran had the advantage on an upwind beat and speed was equal on a beam reach. The speeds recorded were at 28knots but the race was setup in open waters but in fairly strong wind (30knots+)

As far as the speed of a beach catamaran, it would be interesting to see a bigger cat with a smaller rig in strong winds.

I am certain that a big cat like a 20fotter with a small rig could go very fast in protected waters. I have a video of a Tornado event where they setup a course and the fastest time recorded was 27mph. I am certain that they would have gone faster with a smaller rig because they were overpowered.



Charles Leblanc Nacra 5.2 #26
#26690 - 12/08/03 10:00 PM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: CharlesLeblanc]  
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I thought I read in several places on the internet which give the history of the Tornado that they have recorded speeds of 33 knots with the Tornado Sport. That’s a far cry from 27 mph…which is it?

Bob

#26691 - 12/09/03 12:53 AM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: Seeker]  
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sail7seas Offline
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The highest speed I have known the Tornado to go was at CORK '75.
A 40kn storm hit, when the the fleet got to the reaching leg.
The peak of the storm must have hit, when the leaders got to
the jibe mark. At this mark a couple boats broke their side stays,
one of them was Reg White who released the other stays, so as not
to damage the boat from the mast.
Notary was there on "Salt Water Wine", Zutec on "Twister" & Smyth.
Anyway a Canadian destroyer radared the fleet at 28kn average.
That's 33mph average, at that speed the hulls were no longer in
the water it went like a skipping stone from crest to crest in a 9'(3m) chop.
It was amazing the Tornado could skip the crests, and soar over the troughs.
It was sheer madness, with some poet license here, it seemed like
we zoomed over 5 crests in ten seconds, and the wind would
calm down to 2 or 3 crests in 10 seconds a la bucking bronco,
and then accelerate again.
I will never forget the thrill, not to mention wondering will
the wind ever slow up. I recall a Tornado to windward of us,
and counting it cartwheeling/rotating about it's mast 3 1/2 times, and
the crew later righted the boat unassisted, no air tight masts then.
Anyway, I would call it somewhere between sailing/flying & oh ____.
So with a broader wave/wind angle, and a huge offshore swell with
a kite to keep the bows up, 33kn seems possible in the Carribean or Oz.

Great wind & waves,
Chris


#26692 - 12/09/03 01:33 AM Re: Masters of Speed [Re: sail7seas]  
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grob Offline
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Quote
with some poet license here, it seemed like
we zoomed over 5 crests in ten seconds


With all of the devices employed to increase boat speed there is nothing quite so effective as a "poetic license".

All the best

Gareth

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