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#267433 - 12/02/13 07:01 AM Re: !) [Re: Pressure Drop]  
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Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
Oh my, vacuum bagging!

If you are honestly trying to compare the stiffness of an F18 infusion to a Marstrom Tornado, you should see somebody and get your head checked.

Sincerely, somebody who has sailed and won on both.


Man, you Tornado guys have some wadded panties.





Jake Kohl
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#267436 - 12/02/13 08:02 AM Re: !) [Re: catandahalf]  
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Pressure Drop:
Have you done any sailing on a Nacra 17 or F18 Infusion?


#267442 - 12/02/13 10:54 AM Re: !) [Re: pitchpoledave]  
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Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
I will tell you what makes it better.. 30 years of engineering and R&D. Yes I agree that prepreg autoclave construction will result in stiffer hulls but its a very minor thing. The Tornado is like a truck.. great in a straight line but it tacks like a truck. Obviously you have never sailed a modern boat.


LOL, In other words superior construction is a minor thing and has no value. Sounds like a used car salesman but you sell Nacras right?

Last edited by catman; 12/02/13 11:06 AM.

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#267448 - 12/02/13 03:55 PM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: catandahalf]  
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I'm in the camp that the Olympic boat should be made the best way possible like the Tornado was just because that did control costs. There were Tornado's that did multiple campaigns, I don't think the N17, (or even the Viper), would be up to that task. Both boats are built well, but they aren't a Marstrom Tornado as far as build quality goes. If you're replacing a $25k platform an average of once a year, thats more than double the cost of the T just on one campaign.

Just my $.02


I'm boatless.
#267449 - 12/02/13 04:02 PM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: catandahalf]  

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there has been crazy inflation in the cost for materials and shipping since the days of the Olympic T campaigns

so are you pro a $50-60 N17 (or other brand) for Olympic class?

#267450 - 12/02/13 04:02 PM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: Karl_Brogger]  
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“There's no way to work in these waters, where you are literally neck deep in faeces in some places, and not be afraid of the health effects.
Show me the Olympic athlete who's going to have the courage to get into waters like these,” ecology professor Ricardo Freitas told the AP."
http://www.sportbusiness.com/sportb...olluted-waters-195-times-over-safe-level

Better stay on the boat then...


#267452 - 12/02/13 04:09 PM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: ]  
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Originally Posted by MN3
there has been crazy inflation in the cost for materials and shipping since the days of the Olympic T campaigns

so are you pro a $50-60 N17 (or other brand) for Olympic class?



I agree - comparing the costs of a yester-year Tornado to a current modern boat is not apples to apples. A Marstrom Tornado built today would probably be closer to $40 or $50k before you start customizing and testing sail after sail (since sails were also open).


Jake Kohl
#267453 - 12/02/13 04:35 PM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: catandahalf]  
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Still cheaper.


I'm boatless.
#267454 - 12/02/13 04:52 PM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: catandahalf]  
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News Flash,Olympic Campaigns cost a lot of Money.The boat itself is the least expensive aspect of it.
It is like the book on how to be a multimillionaire,Chapter one starts with "After you make your first million". Let,s paraphrase,"how to become an Olympic Sailor",Chapter one after you become a millionaire....

#267457 - 12/02/13 08:31 PM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: Karl_Brogger]  
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Still cheaper.


For the (maybe) three teams that chose to reuse their boats. I don't have stats but I find it hard to believe that most teams didn't chose to refresh their boat platforms and that only a select few were using their platforms for multiple event cycles.


Jake Kohl
#267459 - 12/02/13 11:37 PM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: catandahalf]  
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Tony, I have been on a 17 once. I have been on several infusions more times than I care to, or even could count.

Jake, "(maybe) three" seems like a pretty confident estimate.

The fact of the matter is that you get what you pay for. Serious teams are on the water hundreds of days per year. A Marstrom platform has a considerable competitive life advantage over anything built to a lesser standard.

Someone else brought up the open sailplan of the T costing more. Earlier this year, the class voted in one design sails and locked the price for 4 years on said sails.

Even taking construction quality out of the picture, the tornado is larger, faster, carries more weight, and has a large preexisting global ownership base. Are you really excited about foils that can't actually foil?

#267460 - 12/03/13 06:06 AM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: Pressure Drop]  
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Maybe we should stop kicking ourselves in the nuts and be happy there is a multihull in 2020, do you really think the TV viewer [ and therefore the IOC] gives a **** about which brand boat these guys/girl sail on? It should be spectacular [which this boat is more than the T]and attract young people -read girls- better for TV [which it does better than the T]

all you whiners should realize that this behavior [bitching- this is better then that and/or vice versa] made the multihull disappear from the OG in the first place

lighten up and be happy our youth sailors can have an olympic dream on a multihull [oh it does suit youngsters better than the T as well]

#267461 - 12/03/13 07:11 AM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: Pressure Drop]  
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Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
..
Jake, "(maybe) three" seems like a pretty confident estimate.
...


Ok...so what is it? You guys are claiming that it was more cost effective because the boats are so awesome that you could reuse them indefinitely (I loosely paraphrase ;-). How many teams actually used their platforms for more than one Olympic cycle?



Jake Kohl
#267462 - 12/03/13 07:12 AM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: Kennethsf]  
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Originally Posted by Kennethsf
Maybe we should stop kicking ourselves in the nuts and be happy there is a multihull in 2020, do you really think the TV viewer [ and therefore the IOC] gives a **** about which brand boat these guys/girl sail on? It should be spectacular [which this boat is more than the T]and attract young people -read girls- better for TV [which it does better than the T]

all you whiners should realize that this behavior [bitching- this is better then that and/or vice versa] made the multihull disappear from the OG in the first place

lighten up and be happy our youth sailors can have an olympic dream on a multihull [oh it does suit youngsters better than the T as well]


+1


Jake Kohl
#267463 - 12/03/13 07:20 AM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: Pressure Drop]  
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Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
Tony, I have been on a 17 once. I have been on several infusions more times than I care to, or even could count.

Jake, "(maybe) three" seems like a pretty confident estimate.

The fact of the matter is that you get what you pay for. Serious teams are on the water hundreds of days per year. A Marstrom platform has a considerable competitive life advantage over anything built to a lesser standard.

Someone else brought up the open sailplan of the T costing more. Earlier this year, the class voted in one design sails and locked the price for 4 years on said sails.

Even taking construction quality out of the picture, the tornado is larger, faster, carries more weight, and has a large preexisting global ownership base. Are you really excited about foils that can't actually foil?


I've only raced against a T in one regatta. It was the Thai Catamaran regatta just prior to the selection trials for the mixed multi. The T was being between around the course consistently by the Carbon 20s, and most of the time by F16s and F18s. Not sure the level of the team racing the boat, but I wasn't all that impressed. The boat looked very dated next to the new designs.


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#267464 - 12/03/13 07:49 AM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: catandahalf]  
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I just say have marstrom build the N17.

One design sails doesn't save much either. Just means they buy a bunch of sails until they find one they like. I've owned and sailed a ton of new sails, they're never the same, even out of the same loft.


I'm boatless.
#267465 - 12/03/13 08:20 AM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: Pressure Drop]  
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Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
the tornado is larger, faster, carries more weight, and has a large preexisting global ownership base.


I thought the IOC/ISAF discussions pointed to those aspects as being somewhat negative... The goal was to get more female and/or mixed teams in Olympic sailing. If that was truly the concern then the first three items you indicate would possibly eliminate some smaller (stature/weight/strength) teams.

So the IOC probably sat at a table and said "what's going to put butts in the seats (generating TV and attendance revenue)?" and came up with a smaller platform, offered mixed gender format, and probably made some other changes.

So, after that, I believe sailors chose boats from an assorted (not unlimited, mind you) bunch of candidates. Since they seemed to like a smaller, less durable, faux-foiling design, let them run with it...

In my mind it's similar to the Star, laser, Etchell, Soling and other designs - they float but it's a b*tch to sail fast. None of those designs are the pinnacle of sailing (or technology), none typically last more than one olympic cycle. That they are still reasonably popular OD classes is a testament to their fleet organizers.

As for the platform, is the N17 going to take the world by storm? Doubt it. The T didn't (although it was close..).

Would I (non-olympic hopeful) consider an N17? Nope. For the same reasons I wouldn't consider a Star, Laser, or Etchell: Not my cup of tea.


Jay

#267479 - 12/03/13 04:29 PM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: catandahalf]  
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If you think the cats got worked in the olympic selections; compare them to the boards. Those RSXboards are heavy, poorly shaped dogs compared to a real race board that we would make on Maui. So at least cat sailors didn't get roto-molded cats for the olympics. "not that there is anything wrong with it" The sailors had a voice….at least in that aspect of the overall issue of only 1 cat with a mandated mixed crew when all the while a committee is creating custom girl models of various monohull designs to insert in the allotment of medals. Ironically the mixed crew aspect being unique, with a large potential for human interest stories, will likely get cats into the news more than past olympics.

49er medal race 2008 They are getting worked. Could be their course was in a rougher part of water? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tHGeFYmbNI
Tornado medal race 2008 They are charging. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4iiD4tcKtY

#267481 - 12/03/13 06:22 PM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: catandahalf]  
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Apparently nacra have issues on deciding which way is up... reports of multiple masts being shipped in this configuration.

well done nacra cry

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#267485 - 12/03/13 08:02 PM Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan [Re: catandahalf]  

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At least it makes it easy to drop the sail at the end of the day.

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