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#275253 - 09/09/14 08:05 PM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" ***** [Re: Chris9]  
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Btw, that is 6 or 7 rules that came into play, in the span of 4 boat lengths, or roughly 90 feet, or roughly 16 to 17 feet per second, or about 6 seconds worth of elapsed time... ijs!


Chris Allen
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#275254 - 09/09/14 09:34 PM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: brucat]  
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Originally Posted by brucat
Can you provide a case citation to defend your interpretation?

ISAF Case 15.

In that case, the outside boat was entitled to mark room and is prevented from tacking by a windward boat.

#275255 - 09/09/14 10:47 PM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: mbounds]  
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by brucat
Can you provide a case citation to defend your interpretation?

ISAF Case 15.

In that case, the outside boat was entitled to mark room and is prevented from tacking by a windward boat.


True, but that describes a very different case, in which the outside boat was the one with the mark room. Actually, there was no "inside" or "outside" boat, it was a clear ahead/clear astern situation (clear ahead boat sailing on a line more to leeward of the clear behind boat). In that case, the boat clear ahead is hosed because he can't tack without breaking rule 13 (which is what the entire case actually hinges upon).

In the case we're discussing, it's the inside boat that is entitled to mark room, and is therefore limited per the definition of mark room. This is 100% verified by ISAF Case 21 (quoted below). In Case 21, they mention that there is no specific amount of room that is required to be given, as it is dependent on the conditions, but the mark-room boat must sail in a seamanlike manner. All of this aligns with my posts above.

Mike

Originally Posted by ISAF CASE 21
CASE 21
Definitions, Mark-Room
Definitions, Room
When a right-of-way boat is obligated to give mark-room to
a boat overlapped inside her, there is no maximum or
minimum amount of space that she must give. The amount
of space that she must give depends significantly on the
existing conditions including wind and sea conditions, the
speed of the inside boat, the sails she has set and her design
characteristics.
Question
When rule 18 requires a right-of-way boat to give mark-room to an inside
boat that overlaps her, what is the maximum amount of space that she
must give? What is the minimum amount of space that she must give?
Answer
In this situation, the definition Mark-Room states that the inside boat is
entitled to room for four manoeuvres:
 Room to leave the mark on the required side.
 Room to sail to the mark, but only if the inside boat’s proper
course is to sail close to the mark.
 Room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.
 Room to tack, but only if these additional conditions are met: the
inside boat is overlapped to windward of the outside boat, the tack
is part of the rounding necessary to sail the course, and the inside
boat would be fetching the mark after her tack.
The definitions Room and Mark-Room do not include any reference to a
maximum or minimum amount of space, and no rule implies that the rightof-
way outside boat must give a maximum or minimum amount of space.
She must give the inside boat the space she needs in the existing
conditions to carry out those manoeuvres promptly in a seamanlike way.
In addition, the inside boat is entitled to space to avoid touching the mark
and space for her to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2
with respect to the outside boat as well as any other nearby boats.
The term ‘existing conditions’ deserves consideration. For example, the
inside one of two dinghies approaching a mark on a placid lake in light air
will need relatively little space beyond that required for her hull and
properly trimmed sails. At the other extreme, when two keel boats, on
open water with steep seas, are approaching a mark that is being tossed
about widely and unpredictably, the inside boat may need a full hull length
of space or even more to ensure safety. A boat with a spinnaker flying
often needs more space than one with her spinnaker stowed. A boat that is
planing or surfing may require less space to turn than a boat that is
climbing a steep wave. The ‘existing conditions’ also include
characteristics of the inside boat. For example, a boat with a long keel or a
multihull may require more space to round a mark than a more easily
turned monohull. A boat with a large rudder may need less space to turn
than a boat with a small rudder.
The phrase ‘manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way’ has implications
for both boats. First, it addresses the inside boat, saying she is not entitled
to complain of insufficient space if she fails to execute with reasonable
efficiency the handling of her helm, sheets and sails while manoeuvring. It
also implies that the outside boat must provide enough space so that the
inside boat need not manoeuvre in an extraordinary or abnormal manner
(see also Case 103).

Last edited by brucat; 09/09/14 10:54 PM.
#275257 - 09/10/14 05:38 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: brucat]  
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I'm sorry Mike, but you're wrong. All of that describes the obligations of the outside boat. There is nothing that obligates the inside boat to tack.

Think of it this way - why would you ever go into this situation as the windward boat with an overlap? I'd do everything I could to break that overlap before the leeward boat enters the zone. It makes no sense.

If you need further convincing, look at Team Race Call E12.

#275258 - 09/10/14 06:15 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235]  
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That case doesn't give the windward boat more rights, it exposes when the outside boat no longer needs to give room to tack.

Mike

#275259 - 09/10/14 07:05 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: brucat]  
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Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by brucat
Can you provide a case citation to defend your interpretation?

ISAF Case 15.

True, but that describes a very different case, in which the outside boat was the one with the mark room.

You asked for a case cite to defend my interpretation, and ISAF Case 15 matches my statement. It is a direct answer to your question.

Quote
Actually, there was no "inside" or "outside" boat, it was a clear ahead/clear astern situation

Take another look at Rule 18. RRS 18.2(b) says "If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room". RRS 18.2(c)(1) says "when a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins".

Once the first boat reaches the zone, the obligation to give mark-room is set. It doesn't matter if later the boats become overlapped or ahead/astern. The obligation is unchanged as long as the conditions of RRS 18.1 and 18.2(c) hold. ISAF Case 15 would not change at all if the two boats became overlapped after reaching the zone.

Quote
In the case we're discussing, it's the inside boat that is entitled to mark room, and is therefore limited per the definition of mark room. This is 100% verified by ISAF Case 21

In a scenario where the outside/leeward boat owes the inside/windward boat mark-room, then the mark room she must give includes room to tack. ISAF Case 21 explains in greater detail how much room the outside boat is obligated to give. The definition of mark-room, however, does not place any obligations on the boat entitled to mark-room. Nor does Case 21. The inside/windward boat is not required to tack. She may, if she wishes, do exactly as the windward/astern boat does in Case 15.

In short, Case 21 is not relevant.

If you still assert that a boat entitled to mark-room is obligated to tack at the mark, then please cite the rule that says so.

#275260 - 09/10/14 07:07 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: mbounds]  
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Think of it this way - why would you ever go into this situation as the windward boat with an overlap?


If I understand your question, the windward (overlapped) boat is subject the the leeward boat going head-to-wind and forcing the windward boat into a less than desirable position? Except for the notion that they are in the mark 2/3-boat circle?

What if the two boats are unequal in performance (which would explain the different TWA pointing)? And the "inside"/windward ahead boat (pointing lower) enters the circle not overlapped by "outside" clear astern boat?

What options are available for the outside boat which would otherwise crawl all up in the inside boats shizzle?

If the inside boat (already pointing lower) overstands the mark, is the outside boat at their mercy all the way to Timbucktoo?

Were both of these boats on port tack in the original setup of this question?

I can guess that the parade of starboard boats would really turn this in to a fluster cluck of almost biblical proportions (and worthy of Youtube coverage)


Jay

#275261 - 09/10/14 07:10 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: brucat]  
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This is not about the windward boat having more rights. It's about windward having an obligation to tack. There is no obligation for the windward boat to tack.

If there was an obligation for windward to tack, the penalty would have been on them - but there was no penalty.

#275262 - 09/10/14 07:21 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Chris9]  
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Originally Posted by Chris9
Btw, that is 6 or 7 rules that came into play, in the span of 4 boat lengths, or roughly 90 feet, or roughly 16 to 17 feet per second, or about 6 seconds worth of elapsed time... ijs!

Yes, this is a complicated scenario. The relationship between the boats changes several times. That's why it's good to work out these encounters on shore ahead-of-time so you'll know what to do when the situation arises.

The pivotal rules in this instance are RRS 18.2(b), and the definition of mark-room. The boat that was clear astern when the other one reached the mark was obligated to give her mark-room. With the assumptions given, she did not.

I hope that helps,
Eric

#275263 - 09/10/14 07:57 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
What options are available for the outside boat...?

If the inside boat (already pointing lower) overstands the mark, is the outside boat at their mercy all the way to Timbucktoo?

I can guess that the parade of starboard boats would really turn this in to a ...

Beginning at the end and working backwards, Rule 18 is written to discourage a boat from coming to a windward mark (to be left to port) on the port-tack layline. She is not entitled to mark-room from and must keep clear of all boats on starboard tack. Unless a gap for her appears at the right moment, she's going to be in trouble. That's why we sometimes call it "suicide port". The top sailors all recommend coming into a windward mark on port 5-10 boatlengths away. Pick a spot and tack onto starboard before reaching the zone. Then the rules all work to your advantage at the mark.

If two boats are approaching a windward mark (to be rounded to port) on port tack, then the downwind boat - even if she's clear ahead - is in jeopardy. A boat on her weather hip can control her tack. Even if the astern boat is obligated to keep clear under Rule 12 and owes mark-room under Rule 18.2(b), she can still delay tacking until it's to her advantage.

If you're the clear ahead boat at the zone in this circumstance, then your best option is to scrape the other boat off at the mark. Pinch up or shoot the mark without leaving enough room for the other boat to get between you and the mark. Keep your momentum going as you pass head-to-wind and tack right around the mark. The other boat will have to miss the mark (if so, be careful to avoid her when you tack) or duck you and round behind. If she sticks her nose in anyway, then take avoiding action and protest.

If you have understood the layline and can't prevent the other boat from getting inside, then you're out of luck. If you're overlapped to leeward at the zone, then not only does the other boat control your tack, but you also have to give her mark-room (which then includes room to tack). Your only recourse is to turn head-to-wind and hope the other boat tacks. Then you can tack too, but you're probably behind at that point.

I hope that helps,
Eric

#275264 - 09/10/14 08:47 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235]  
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great debate!!!

Just because you THINK you are ahead.... at some intermediate point of the race course... the rules of the game are determinative... You have to plan your corners.

(now...I have been known to wait and wait and wait before tacking because... "the air is just not clean enough...." Always a huge mistake because it is putting me on port tack in the zone....)


crac.sailregattas.com
#275266 - 09/10/14 10:20 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235]  
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This is a great debate. I need to think about this a bit more, I'm not sold that mark room entitles you to sail off the course. I could buy that the inside boat can slow down but not tack within the reasonable space considered as mark room, but I don't think they can continue on past the mark room space, and expect to be able to keep the leeward boat from tacking. At some point, mark room ends, and the leeward boat can head the windward to up beyond head to wind.

As I understand it, the windward boat would have fouled by taking too much as mark room. This might be the crux of our disagreement.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 09/10/14 10:22 AM.
#275267 - 09/10/14 10:25 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: brucat]  
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That's kind of what I was thinking, too, Mike.

Am I to presume you might be able to sail all the way to the other end of the 2-boat circle?


Jay

#275268 - 09/10/14 10:56 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235]  
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Case 103 really helps. It's a good discussion about how a jury is to decide how much mark room is appropriate. There are lots of factors to consider.

Eric, regarding Case 15 here, I continue to respectfully disagree that it applies to the original case of this thread. Even the abstract in the front of the book tells you that Case 15 is ultimately about Rule 13.

BTW, for any of you new to racing or serving on a jury, please view this debate as normal and healthy. This is why we have multiple judges and closed deliberations, it ultimately results in better decisions.

Hope this helps.

Mike

#275269 - 09/10/14 11:14 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: brucat]  
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Originally Posted by brucat
I'm not sold that mark room entitles you to sail off the course. ... I don't think they can continue on past the mark room space, and expect to be able to keep the leeward boat from tacking. At some point, mark room ends, and the leeward boat can head the windward to up beyond head to wind

Let's back up a bit. The definitions do not impose obligations on a boat - the numbered rules do that. The definitions are simply explanations of what the terms used specifically mean. A boat cannot break the rule "mark-room", and the definition itself does not impose restrictions on a boat's actions.

Rule 18 imposes the obligation on one boat to give another boat mark-room. Rule 18.4 also restricts an inside overlapped right-of-way from sailing beyond her proper course before gybing. There is no corollary rule about tacking.

"Mark-room" does not entitle a boat to sail off the course, but it does not prohibit a boat from doing so either. It is not "mark-room" that prevents a boat to leeward (or ahead) from tacking, it is rule 13. Once that boat passes head-to-wind, she must keep clear of the other boat. If she can't keep clear, then she can't tack. She may turn head-to-wind, but not beyond.

No rule restricts a boat from sailing beyond her proper course before tacking, whether at or away from a mark. A boat in a controlling position may drive another boat beyond the mark, out of the zone, and all the way to the edge of the racecourse to gain a tactical advantage.

I hope that helps,
Eric

#275270 - 09/10/14 11:15 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: brucat]  
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Originally Posted by brucat
please view this debate as normal and healthy. This is why we have multiple judges and closed deliberations, it ultimately results in better decisions.

Hope this helps.

Mike


+1 This is a great discussion and your input is a valued part of the debate


Jay

#275271 - 09/10/14 11:57 AM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: brucat]  
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Originally Posted by brucat
Eric, regarding Case 15 here, I continue to respectfully disagree that it applies to the original case of this thread.

No, it applies to my previous statement "I'll go you one further and say that even if you AREN'T entitled to mark-room from (and in fact, even if you owe mark-room to) an outside/leeward boat, you CAN drive her beyond the mark. She can take you head-to-wind, but you are not obligated to tack, nor to give her room to tack."

I don't have an ISAF Case citation that is an exact match to the scenario posted, but then again, the boat entitled to mark-room tacked when she reached the layline. She didn't push the leeward boat away from the mark.

You asserted that a boat entitled to mark-room must tack within that mark-room, which is what we're discussing now. I asked you to justify that statement with a rule reference. Cases about how much room is enough, and how to interpret the term "seamanlike" are not germane.

Can you identify any rule, case, or appeal that states a boat is ever "obligated to tack and round the mark"?

Sincerely,
Eric

#275272 - 09/10/14 12:14 PM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235]  
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I think we're getting closer. I still see the definition of mark room as being restrictive: the inside boat is entitled to room to round the mark, not room to sail to Canada then come back and round the mark.

I've searched the case book, and wonder if there isn't a case cited simply because once outside of the reasonable space defined as mark-room, the inside (windward) boat would be breaking other Part 2 rules if she didn't headup when luffed, etc.

Put it this way, if I'm outside and leeward, you're inside and windward, the seas are flat, the breeze is moderate and no one else is around. As soon as you pass the lay line, I'm heading you up to tack. I'll follow the rules and keep clear while turning, but what rules are going to be on your side if you don't respond?

BTW spectators, Eric, Matt and I typically agree on most of these...

Mike

#275273 - 09/10/14 12:38 PM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: brucat]  
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Originally Posted by brucat
Put it this way, if I'm outside and leeward, you're inside and windward, the seas are flat, the breeze is moderate and no one else is around. As soon as you pass the lay line, I'm heading you up to tack. I'll follow the rules and keep clear while turning, but what rules are going to be on your side if you don't respond?

As I said previously, the leeward boat (L) may turn head-to-wind, provided she complies with rules 16.1, 17 and 18.2(b). The windward boat (W) must, in accordance with rule 11, head up to keep clear. If, however, L passes head-to-wind, then she must keep clear and rule 15 does not protect her. W need not turn past head-to-wind.

Mark-room or no mark-room, W is not obligated to tack.

#275274 - 09/10/14 12:41 PM Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235]  
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Looking back, the only place above that I mentioned "obligated to tack" was in reference to taking too much room to tack due to issues on the boat. Without calling up the reference at the time, my point in that post was to point out the principles of room and seamanlike actions, as expressed in Case 103.

I will agree that "obligated to tack" doesn't appear in the rules, but stick to the interpretation that mark room does not give a boat ROW, and is limited per the definitions.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 09/10/14 12:42 PM.
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